Alex Chapin
Fair Share Farm - Emma Hendel
Emma Hendel discusses her five years as a microgreens farmer and co-owner of Fair Share Farms, LLC in Pfafftown, North Carolina. Ms. Hendel describes why and how she and her husband Elliot Seldner came to North Carolina and started their farm. She explains what microgreens are and why she and Mr. Seldner decided to grow them. Other topics include organic farming methods, Organic Certified vs. Good Agricultural Practices (GAP) Certified, urban sprawl, distribution partners, environmental issues, and social media.
Emma Hendel was a 30-year-old woman at the time of interview, which took place at Davidson Town Hall in Davidson, North Carolina. She was born in Maryland in 1988. She was educated at Elizabethtown College and was employed as a teacher and farmer.
| Time | Subject |
| 0:00:07 | Beginning |
| 0:00:44 | Background of Fair Share Farm |
| 0:01:10 | Began with a CSA model |
| 0:02:06 | Beginning of Fair Share Farm |
| 0:02:43 | Working up to their own farm |
| 0:03:37 | Deciding what to grow |
| 0:04:14 | Organic methods, GAP, FSMA |
| 0:05:14 | Elliot's desire to work outside |
| 0:06:36 | Desire for a healthy lifestyle |
| 0:07:16 | Love of cooking |
| 0:08:08 | Emma's family from Winston-Salem |
| 0:09:15 | Coming to North Carolina to work on other farms |
| 0:10:50 | Negatives of urban encroachment |
| 0:12:01 | Potential for positive opportunities of urban encroachment |
| 0:13:44 | Makeup of farm land (greenhouses, etc) |
| 0:15:00 | Microgreens (what they are and how they are grown) |
| 0:18:30 | Type of customers |
| 0:19:39 | No till (soil care) |
| 0:22:13 | Organic farming |
| 0:24:23 | Organic certification |
| 0:26:07 | GAP certification |
| 0:29:07 | Getting into Whole Foods |
| 0:30:11 | Distribute to restaurants |
| 0:32:33 | Work with small distributers (Freshlist and New Appalachia) |
| 0:34:15 | Employees |
| 0:37:01 | Immigrant "guest" workers |
| 0:39:11 | Challenges as a woman |
| 0:40:23 | Social Media |
| 0:43:35 | Use of plastic |
| 0:45:51 | Call out culture online |
| 0:46:44 | Partner organizations |
| 0:49:58 | Future of the farm |
| 0:52:44 | Closing |
[00:00:10]
>> Sarah Wilds: Okay, today is April 20th, 2019, we are in Davidson, North Carolina. My name is Sarah Wilds, and I am interviewing Emma Hendel. And Emma is co-owner of Fair Share Farm with her husband, Elliott.
>> Emma Hendel: Seldner.
>> Sarah Wilds: Seldner.
>> Sarah Wilds: So Emma, can you just tell me real briefly, sort of a little background information about your farm?
[00:00:39]
Where it is, when you started, how it started and we'll go from there.
>> Emma Hendel: So my farm's name is Fair Share Farm, LLC, and we established it with the mission to feed as many people in North Carolina as we can, growing the best food possible, and being kind to the land and ourselves while doing it.
[00:01:03]
And so, the name Fair Share Farm actually comes out of the way that we started our business, which was with a CSA model, or a community supported agriculture. So people would purchase a share of produce, which they would receive weekly throughout the season, which is a great model for a farm starting up, because you get a lot of cash flow right away.
[00:01:27]
So usually in a CSA model, you would pay completely up front and receive a product throughout the season. And so that's where like the fair share came from, because the customers would be getting their share of our hard work. And it's a fair deal for everybody, because we're compensate, we're being compensated for the work and the effort that we're putting in.
[00:01:54]
And so that's really been important is always charging what the product is worth and not more and not less. And so we started our business in the fall of 2014, so we're actually coming up on our five year mark, which is a big deal in the small business world.
[00:02:16]
That sort of like you're not going anywhere, hopefully like usually up to year three is where it's like very, very crazy, and then sort of year five is like you can be looking at next steps. Where do you take if from here because you're established? So, we started in the fall of 2014, my husband was at the time working at another farm, and I was teaching.
[00:02:48]
>> Emma Hendel: And so, we'd actually been talking with the landowners a year or two previously, but we weren't ready to go at that time. And then, a couple years and a few months down the road, it was time. So, we reached back out and got in contact with them and set up a lease.
[00:03:12]
And really in the fall of 2014, that was all preparation, deciding what we were doing, preparing the land to grow things, figuring out the logistics of what's the soil type, what can we grow here, what do we wanna grow, what do people want, where can we sell our products?
[00:03:32]
And actually, one big deciding factor on where we were going to focus was the farmer's market and trying to get into the local farmer's market. And then being what's the hole in the market? So that it became clear that salad, micro-greens, people were doing some of that, but no one was really focusing on it.
[00:03:54]
So that's where our salad focus came from was to fill a void in the marketplace. And at the suggestion of the market manager to say, hey, I think you should focus on this. We did, and so that is where that focus came from. So we grow a lot of salad, we also grow specialty seasonal produce.
[00:04:14]
We are not certified organic, but we do follow all of the USDA and USDA guidelines and use only AMRI-approved methods and products. And we keep extensive records because we do have a GAP certification. And so although the FSMA, Food Safety Modernization Act, is not necessarily being applied yet, we are ready.
[00:04:42]
So we have meticulous record keeping. We believe that the goodness of the product comes from the soil. And so we like to take care of it. And so, I think I answered the question where it was like, where did it come from? What's our business based on? And so yeah, help me out.
[00:05:10]
[LAUGH]
>> Sarah Wilds: That's great. So from listening to a previous interview on a farming podcast or agricultural podcast, I know Elliott was sort of the driving force behind wanting to farm. Do you know where his passion sort of came from?
>> Emma Hendel: Yeah, Elliott wanted to be outside. And so when we were in college, it’s really daunting to sort of see your whole life ahead of you.
[00:05:45]
And when you’re trying to pick and focus on what you’re studying and sort of like envisioning what is the next 40 or 50 work years, working years of my life going to look like? Am I going to be sitting in the cubicle all day? Am I going to be presenting in front of groups?
[00:06:05]
Am I going to be researching? What really am I going to be doing? And so, for Elliott, I think there was this romantic enchantment with the idea of working outside and forming a community that way and having movement in his life. Because like everybody, we want to be healthy and active.
[00:06:36]
But I also think, and I don’t think he would mind me saying this, but I think for Elliott, he doesn’t go out and seek exercise. So having exercise and activity built into his daily life was sort of the only way that he saw that he was going to be at all fit and healthy.
[00:06:57]
>> Sarah Wilds: That's a good sort of overall strategy.
>> Emma Hendel: [LAUGH]
>> Sarah Wilds: You have to physically move around to work, but then you also produce healthy food. And it's kind of win-win situation.
>> Emma Hendel: Yeah, and I actually now that you say that, that's another thing I think that do Elliott and myself, too, we both love cooking, love eating.
[00:07:20]
Our teenage jobs and young adult jobs revolved around food. Both of us have worked as cooks. I've worked front of house positions, being a server and doing all sorts of different things, and so cooking is a huge part of our life and our relationship. If we're spending time together, we're probably cooking something or eating something or doing a food project.
[00:07:51]
It really is focused on that because it's one of the most, in our opinion, it's one of the most joyful and enjoyable things that we do.
>> Sarah Wilds: So how did you end up specifically outside Winston-Salem? You had contact with the previous owner of the land.
>> Emma Hendel: So Elliott grew up in Connecticut, I grew up in Maryland.
[00:08:20]
We met in college in Pennsylvania. I grew up visiting Winston-Salem, North Carolina because my mother's family is based in Winston-Salem. So I have tons of cousins, aunts, uncles. So school breaks were spent visiting. And although my mom moved away from Winston-Salem, she did maintain those relationships and come back and visit and spend time.
[00:08:49]
And so I grew up visiting Winston-Salem, and it's funny because I never really saw myself living in Winston-Salem because it wasn't necessarily a positive experience for me as a child. And by just after working at a couple different farms and moving around after college, we actually came to North Carolina because one of our acquaintances from college then, he was living in Durham, North Carolina and working for Carolina Farm Stewardship Association.
[00:09:30]
And so he was like, well, I know you guys are looking for maybe land to start your own farm, or maybe even an employment opportunity, send me your resume and I'll put it out on the CFSA list serve. And so we sent resumes, they were put out on the list serve, that's how we got in the initial contact with the land owners and really, like I said, at the time we were probably leaning more towards an employment situation.
[00:10:01]
And so another farm in Stokes County, North Carolina took us up and offered both of us jobs, and so that's how we ended up in North Carolina, and then just about a half hour south of that is Winston-Salem. And so when we first moved to North Carolina, we stayed with my godparents.
[00:10:29]
And while we were looking for housing, etc., and now actually our farm now is a couple neighborhoods over from where they live. So that's how I got back to North Carolina and Elliot came to North Carolina for the first time. [LAUGH]
>> Sarah Wilds: So are there any sort of urban issues of being, cuz you said you were right outside Winston-Salem's city sprawl urban development.
[00:10:59]
Is that sort of encroaching? Because here in Charlotte the city is really pushing out and devouring the counties.
>> Emma Hendel: It is, it is actually. There's a ton of farmland for sale all around us. They're putting in, actually, the new highway that's going to encircle Winston-Salem is going to, there's going to be an entrance and exit at the end of our street.
[00:11:30]
And so that's really gonna change things. There's all sorts of new construction, like the type of construction where it's like buy the plot and design true homes. There's a lot of true home developments. And so it's a rapidly changing landscape. But it hasn't really impacted our farm negatively, because we are still in the county and there is actually a lot of, it could be positive for us because there is a lot of potential for a roadside stand, or what if in the future we setup a demo farm on our current farm property and purchase more land further out.
[00:12:16]
I mean there's positives and negatives. I do see the loss of the rural areas as a negative for the area. And urban sprawl is, in my opinion, I don't find it very attractive and I like the idea of having an urban center but I do think there needs to be a more forward looking sort of vision into how things are going because it's difficult when you just have all these little suburban things and then there's chain stuff to pop up to service.
[00:13:12]
Cuz everybody because everybody wants their little piece of land. And it's a difficult issue because you want people to be empowered and have their yard and their house and feel a sense of ownership over that, but then at the same time it can be sort of a barrier to entry because there are large houses.
[00:13:39]
So anyways, that's sort of getting into a whole other issue.
>> Sarah Wilds: So I think, I found that you have about five acres of land currently?
>> Emma Hendel: Yeah, probably about, I would say five acres of open land and then two with houses and outbuildings on them, and we lease that from a family.
[00:14:08]
>> Sarah Wilds: And you have green houses?
>> Emma Hendel: Yes, we have 20 caterpillar coop house structures, so 2,100 foot caterpillar structures. That would be the cheapest in low tech, and then we have two large,
>> Emma Hendel: Coop house structures or high tunnels. And so those are sort of a little bit more sophisticated.
[00:14:40]
They have the double inflated poly roof and roll up sides, and those are unheated and then we have one commercial greenhouse, which is heated, has electrical service, whole nine yards. And that's where we do our micro greens and our transplants for the field.
>> Sarah Wilds: Okay. So I guess going off of that, like can you talk a little bit more about micro greens like what they are as opposed to just, I don't know, collard greens, spinach, kale.
[00:15:13]
What's?
>> Emma Hendel: Yeah, so there's sprouts, which we do not grow, but sprouts are not grown in the soil, they're just basically hydrated seeds, and they're not exposed to sunlight but, and so you'll see this often in the grocery stores as mung beans or alfalfa sprouts and things like that.
[00:15:38]
A micro green is grown in the soil and, well, at least how we grow them, they're grown in the soil and exposed to sunlight. You can also have hydroponically grown micro-greens that are grown with grow lights, but that's not how we do it. We do it solar, with soil, and all we do is after they have germinated we just supply water so they're not getting any other treatments essentially.
[00:16:06]
It's just soil, water, sunlight. And so most microgreens are between 10 and about 25 days old. And so a seed has all of the energy it needs to basically get to sexual maturity. So that's a lot of energy that's in a seed, and that's why people are like, seeds and nuts, they're so healthy for you.
[00:16:30]
So what a microgreen is, is it's all that seed and nut energy plus sunlight energy which activates all sorts of different chemical reactions. Which as I am not a biologist, I can't really explain all of that, but it's happening and it's really cool and it makes a really delicious and flavorful product.
[00:16:53]
And so if you are looking at a microgreen versus a full-grown vegetable depending on the variety, it can have 4-40 times the amount of available nutrition for you. And so it's a really great way to get a lot of vitamins and good nutrients in maybe a smaller package.
[00:17:16]
>> Sarah Wilds: Yeah.
>> Emma Hendel: So it's like kids really like them cuz they're cute. And then it's like you just ate a ton of really good stuff, why don't you have some more? But they're also because of that concentrated available nutrition, they have a very concentrated and powerful flavor. [LAUGH] And so that can be a really fun experience too where that is really arugula, that's the most arugula, arugula flavor-
[00:17:46]
>> Sarah Wilds: [LAUGH]
>> Emma Hendel: I've ever tasted. Another advantage is you can get, there's a lot of, especially in the legume and sort of more nutty things like sunflowers and pea shoots. There's a lot of available protein in that. And the University of Maryland did a study, I think, in 2012 with sunflowers and ounce per ounce, they have the same amount of protein as chicken.
[00:18:15]
So if you have an ounce of sunflower shoot, that's got the same amount of protein as an ounce of chicken. And so and I think I believe pea shoots are a similar sort of deal. So I mean it's really great. I'm not a vegan but a lot of our customers are vegan bodybuilders, there's a market for that.
[00:18:40]
And people that are really into the wellness trend and movement, a lot of people that are practicing yoga are really into that sort of thing. And so microgreen sorta helped expand the sort of vegetable life for people that are focusing on eating more vegetables and things like that.
[00:19:08]
>> Sarah Wilds: Yeah, and then that sounds very versatile for vegans, vegan bodybuilders but also those people who want their kids to eat good food or they're vegetarian or just-
>> Emma Hendel: Yeah, cuz you can put it on a sandwich, you can basically put it with anything. Whatever you're eating, if you wanna grill a piece of salmon, just put a handful of stuff on the bottom of the plate, put the salmon on top.
[00:19:31]
And you can be done if you want [LAUGH].
>> Sarah Wilds: And it'll look pretty.
>> Emma Hendel: Yeah, and it'll look pretty.
>> Sarah Wilds: Great, so I think I saw on your website, you use no-till?
>> Emma Hendel: Yeah, whenever we can we like to use as little tillage as possible. There are farms that claim to be zero till like they're never tilling.
[00:19:59]
We do use tillage to break sod and break new ground. And every once in a while, we might need to till but we focus on trying to till as little as possible because it helps with carbon sequestration. So when you're tilling, you can be releasing a lot of carbon into the air.
[00:20:23]
And you're also disturbing the soil composition. So you're disturbing like the different layers of soil. You're chopping up worms, and there's all sorts of things going on on the microbial level that you're disturbing. And also tillage can create a problem called hardpan, where when you're tilling especially in the clay-based soil of the Piedmont, a tiller is probably gonna go about 6 inches down.
[00:20:56]
And it will actually create a layer of compacted soil underneath that 6 inches which can inhibit the uptake of the deep soil nutrients, so a lot of plants have roots that go down 12, 14 inches three feet. They have a big tap root. And so if they can't get through that layer of hardpan, they are not gonna have access to a lot of the micronutrients that are deeper down in the soil.
[00:21:26]
And that action of the taproot bringing up is also bringing up nutrients for later crops and later things. And so what we do is we use a tool called a broadfork, which goes down about 12 inches and that helps break up that layer of hardpan. I mean, it’s essentially like a large garden fork, or it might look like an oversized comb or something like that.
[00:21:54]
And so that helps break it up like how people have their lawns aerated, it's the same sort of action.
>> Sarah Wilds: Okay,
>> Sarah Wilds: So you mention before that your gaps are agricultural practi-
>> Emma Hendel: Practices, yeah [LAUGH].
>> Sarah Wilds: Yeah, what's the difference between that and working in a certified?
>> Emma Hendel: So being certified organic is about practices in terms of soil management and product use.
[00:22:34]
So that I'm talking about fertilizers and pesticides. So one thing that is a misconception about being organic is that pesticides and fertilizers are allowed. The restrictions come into play when you're looking at petroleum-based fertilizers so that would not be allowed under organic certification. But what is allowed is things like BT, which is actually like a cultivated bacteria or like a product that's called Azero, which is made from chrysanthemum concentrate or name oil or insecticidal soaps.
[00:23:25]
Or there's a product called Surround, no, not Surround. Well, there's a clay-based product that forms a physical barrier on fruits, for like tree fruit production. So pesticides which are derived from,
>> Emma Hendel: Chemicals and ingredients that are available in the environment that are not synthesized and that are going to be less harmful to the environment as well as the soil and certain insects like those are going to be allowed.
[00:24:07]
But of course, no Roundup, no weed killers,
>> Sarah Wilds: So it's not just organic, the food itself is being grown organic. It's the environment it's been grown in and the materials it's being grown with are all organic then.
>> Emma Hendel: So if you wanted to start an organic farm today, unless you had from the landowners a letter saying for the past three years either A, nothing has been done to this land.
[00:24:37]
Or B, this land has only been farmed using certified organic practices and it is certified organic by this other grower already. You're gonna have to wait three years with your practices. Now when we established our farm, nothing had been done for three years. We wrote an organic plan but it didn't It didn't seem worth it to us to invest the money in that.
[00:25:06]
And then there's other issues I have with the USDA's certified organic program just regarding, organic is supposed to be about growing in the soil. But now, they're allowing hydroponics and all sorts of other things. II don't really want to go too much into it, because I am not here to trash certified organic at all.
[00:25:32]
Because being certified organic is what can help people enter into the marketplace. It can be a third party stamp of approval. There's a lot of positives to being certified organic. For us, it just wasn't the right fit. Now, certified organic is about soil management, soil practices as well as what products you can and can not use are on your crops and on your soil.
[00:26:08]
GAP certification is all about food safety. So organic and GAPs probably line up at about 80%. In terms of there is rules about when you can and cannot apply manure based fertilizers, for reasons of food safety. If you are growing a salad green, you can't go in and spray liquid fish emulsion on it one day and then cut it for market the next day, that doesn't work.
[00:26:47]
There's different rules about when you can apply certain products which overlap. And then where GAPs diverges and has almost, maybe even more stringent guidelines is about signage, employee training, paperwork. I have a whole shelf of paperwork and for every activity on the farm, there's basically a task ticket.
[00:27:16]
And it describes exactly, you as the farmer or somebody else that's our employee. They're gonna write down, I did this in this field on this day. We have a little diagram that they can circle what part of the field, they write exactly what they did. Sign and date it at the bottom, it goes into a record book.
[00:27:37]
If somebody injures themselves, you need a band-aid for a cut, you gotta fill out injury and illness report. We have hand washing stations all over the farm available. We have SOPs, standard operating procedures for everything and so it's just very procedural based. And for certified organic, there's a lot of records that you have to keep but it's just not quite at the same level.
[00:28:15]
For certified organic, it's more about what are you doing to the soil. What is planted, and for certified organic you have to keep harvest records. There's just a couple extra pieces of information that are required for GAPs beyond.
>> Sarah Wilds: So that's how you do organic method? So you're using all those methods, you're taking care of the soil?
[00:28:40]
>> Emma Hendel: With the systems we have in place, we could go and get certified organic really tomorrow or as soon as the certifier could get out there, it would be no sweat.
>> Sarah Wilds: At this point, it's just a stamp for you.
>> Emma Hendel: Yeah, and we talk about it and we go back and forth all the time, like right now we are in the process of trying to get into Whole Foods.
[00:29:08]
Whole Foods sells conventional stuff, that's what we are, is a quote-unquote conventional grower. And they sell conventional things, and they're like, yeah, great. Your products look good, and it would be sold in the conventional section. It's like a chicken or the egg situation. I don't know if we would make enough additional business because of being certified organic to offset the cost in the first year.
[00:29:42]
But maybe five years from now, that's the reason that we got a contract with Whole Foods. Or that's the reason that we got this customer over here, or that's the reason that we got into this new farmer's market or something like that. So that's it's tough to figure out what is the right path.
[00:30:11]
>> Sarah Wilds: Who all do you distribute and partner to? I know you're here in Davidson, I know you're at the farmer's market in Old Salem, in Winstom-Salem. What else do you do?
>> Emma Hendel: We actually started our business with restaurant customers and we were delivering living micro green trays to restaurants in Winston-Salem.
[00:30:37]
Which was something that the chef's there hadn't yet seen like other parts of the country, like New York and New England and California like that. That wasn't a new thing. But in North Carolina, particularly where we were that was something, everyone had seen the cut micro greens. But to bring in a fresh Living tray that a chef could play with and baby and keep around, and that was a new experience for people.
[00:31:09]
So that was really great to see. And so we started with restaurants, restaurants still make up about 70% of our business. We do the farmer's market which actually helps drive a lot of restaurant business too. People like to connect and see where their food comes from. So if we had a product at the farmer's market, people would come up and be like, I saw that at such and such restaurant.
[00:31:35]
Was that you? Do you sell to them and you can be like, yeah that's our product. Every time you eat at that restaurant, you're also supporting our business, and people are like, yeah!
>> Sarah Wilds: We're like ten miles outside.
>> Emma Hendel: Exactly, and that's actually why we wanted to expand and have a market in Davidson.
[00:31:56]
Because we've been coming down to Charlotte for the last couple years doing restaurant deliveries. So we wanted to have that connection with the community, and then also We're hoping to see that when our customers at the farmers market are going out to eat, they are able to tell the wait staff or the chef, yeah, I met Emma at the farmers market.
[00:32:22]
I’m really glad that you have their product in here. And so, we also work with a couple of small distributors in the area New Appalachia, and also Fresh List. And so, there's some customers that we have that I find out new ones every day. Because once you sell it to a distributor, you don't necessarily know where it ends up.
[00:32:52]
Even if it has your name on it.
>> Sarah Wilds: Yeah, so I've heard a little about Fresh List, but can you talk about New Appalachia?
>> Emma Hendel: So New Appalachia is a company that's actually based in the Asheville area. And so, they collect from small and medium sized growers from western, central, and all over North Carolina.
[00:33:19]
They also go in to South Carolina for fruit. And so, really, just bringing all sorts of flavors from the mountains to the Piedmont, and from the Piedmont all over the rest of North Carolina. And so, he's just picking up things from various producers that are in different little micro-climates.
[00:33:43]
And so, he was delivering bamboo shoots and things like all sorts of foraged items, rare items. And so, just taking the search off the plate of the chef and saying this is the 300 item product list that you can choose from this week, coming from all these different farms.
[00:34:09]
>> Sarah Wilds: That's cool.
>> Sarah Wilds: So how do you, obviously the business is owned by you and your husband and you have a few full-time employees. How do you find those employees? Are they all locals from North Carolina?
>> Emma Hendel: All of our employees right now live and have their own lives in Winston-Salem and Kernersville, which is another little nearby town.
[00:34:37]
Previously, we have employed people that have come and relocated. And this year, we were like we want all local employees. Because we don't have housing, and we felt it was difficult to have people come and relocate. Because it's well, how do you jump into a new city life, and maybe it hadn't really seemed to work out.
[00:35:15]
But we found that we'll put ads on Craigslist or Indeed. Actually, we get a lot of employees through word of mouth. And so, we haven't had trouble finding employees yet, and hopefully we won't. A lot of time, people that work on the farm work on farms anywhere. They might be just out of college, or on summer vacation from college, or just out of high school.
[00:35:54]
So young people. And so, most of the time, people that are being employed by farms aren't necessarily going to spend the rest of their life working at a farm. So what we are striving towards right now is paying people more, giving people more responsibility. And trying to figure out how do we retain people for longer than just a season or a year, and how do they continue to grow with us so that we can have some institutional memory.
[00:36:27]
>> Emma Hendel: But that might be the way to go. We might find out that that's not how it works. But we're willing to give it a try. But most farms that we know of that we've worked for that we have contact with, go with the internship model. Sort of like turn and burn sort of deal where it's like maybe about the experience for the person as opposed to the success of the farm.
[00:37:00]
>> Sarah Wilds: So I know at least a few firms around here in the Concord area use the H2A labor force. But you said you don't have housing, and I know that's part of the program.
>> Emma Hendel: In the future we might have housing, and that could be a route that we go you.
[00:37:19]
There's also certain, it's also I feel like there's this misconception around the guest worker program. They are compensated at a very good hourly rate, which is more than we pay some of our employees. And so it's-
>> Sarah Wilds: It's an internship model?
>> Emma Hendel: Right, and so, that is perhaps a more expensive way to import somebody, but those people that are a part of this program, they are here to work, they are here to make money, and that's what they're here to do.
[00:37:57]
So you're going to get what you pay for essentially.
>> Sarah Wilds: Yeah, I talked to another farmer and he's his farm has been employing H2A people.
>> Emma Hendel: Did you talk to Barbee Farms?
>> Sarah Wilds: Yes.
>> Emma Hendel: Yeah, did you talk with Brent or you talk with his dad?
>> Sarah Wilds: Tommy.
[00:38:15]
>> Emma Hendel: Yeah, Tommy.
>> Sarah Wilds: He's so sweet. But yeah, he had nothing but good things to say about the program.
>> Emma Hendel: Yeah.
>> Sarah Wilds: And he said basically the same thing. They come and they have one mission. They wanna work, and so they have to satisfy you.
>> Emma Hendel: Exactly
>> Sarah Wilds: And you show them once, and they do it.
[00:38:32]
>> Emma Hendel: And it's not, I mean, like a lot of times it's not about they may have seen it done a different way. Doesn't matter. This is what you want, this is what I will do sorta deal. And I've worked around, not on a crew that has guest workers, but nearby farms with guest workers.
[00:39:01]
They are getting stuff down. They're like whoa. [LAUGH]
>> Sarah Wilds: Yeah, they don't mess around.
>> Sarah Wilds: So I guess sort of moving away, I guess, from the nitty-gritty of the farm.
>> Sarah Wilds: Are there any challenges that you face as a woman, or you have seen faced by women in general as farmers?
[00:39:28]
>> Emma Hendel: Me personally, nothing really beyond surface stuff. Or maybe some machismo or whatever where it's like you grew that, really? You're doing that, or you're driving that big truck? Or how did you do that, where's your husband? Blah, blah, blah. Just stuff like that. But I mean, honestly, for me personally, no.
[00:39:56]
Just beyond maybe a verbal questioning, but nothing ever where it's like a complete road block or like we're not going to give you a loan because you're A woman or we're not going to talk to you or let you into this space because you're a woman.
>> Sarah Wilds: Mm-hm, well, that's good.
[00:40:18]
>> Emma Hendel: Yeah.
>> Sarah Wilds: Glad to hear that.
>> Sarah Wilds: What about social media? So I know your farm has an Instagram and you send out newsletters. How important is that to your market? Your marketing?
>> Emma Hendel: That's a good question. I don't actually know for sure because we've always had the social media aspect.
[00:40:46]
Like it didn't really exist without it. I started doing the newsletter last year. And I actually think that that has really improved community engagement. I think it gives people a sense of ownership over the products that they're purchasing because they know what's going on with the farm in that week.
[00:41:07]
With Instagram and stuff, you can get a lot of inspiration from other farms. There's also, I think there's also a lot of anxiety that can come with putting stuff out there. And I would say 90% of stuff is positive. But that 10% stuff where people might message you, or people might ask a question and be upset that you don't want to share your proprietary knowledge.
[00:41:39]
Or something like that where it's like, you know it's really great that you're asking me a question but I think that you need to pay me for the answer. Like that can spark some really negative feelings in people. I mean we share a lot online, maybe even what some people would say are secrets.
[00:42:02]
Some people are like you share too much, some people are like you don't share enough. We really try and focus on the positive with what we share. And that is actually something that also draws criticism where people are like everything always looks so great at your farm, and there's never any rain, and you never talk about any of the problems.
[00:42:26]
But that's not what we're trying to share. We're not trying to share a pity story. We're not trying to share negative things, and that's not what our mission is on Instagram or on Facebook or whatever. But I think that there's a disconnect where people don't, sometimes people don't seem to remember that it's not the whole story.
[00:42:58]
And, so even if you might know that, on my social media I don't share every, well some people do share everything. But if you're on my social media I don't share everything. But sometimes people can forget to apply that other people's sharing on social media. So it's like maybe I don't wanna share that or maybe that's not what I want this page to focus on.
[00:43:22]
And so that 10% of people that might get catty, or might say weird things, or just might leave a comment where it's like, eff you, or something like that. A comment that we get a lot on social media is about use of plastic or whatever. And I'm like you're making this comment on a device with rare earth materials, like I don't think that we need to go there everybody.
[00:43:56]
>> Sarah Wilds: Yeah, a little plastic [INAUDIBLE]
>> Emma Hendel: I mean the plastic is what is enabling a lot of small farmers to do really great things. And so there is the argument of you're going to buy produce in the grocery store. That produce was produced using plastic, it's packaged in plastic.
[00:44:18]
But the difference between the produce in the grocery store and the produce that you're getting from your local farmer be it at the same grocery store, a farmers market or restaurant is yes, plastic was used. But a whole ton of fossil fuels weren't. And say some things like flown from California or driven from California.
[00:44:41]
Or even coming from Chile or wherever. I think it can be hard to sort of step back, because there is a crisis going on. But it needs to be more about coming together as opposed to trying to call people out or whataboutism. So there has to be a balance and you have to remember behind every action there’s a reason and a story and a journey that led people there to take it.
[00:45:16]
>> Sarah Wilds: And one small farm in one small location versus major corporations.
>> Emma Hendel: Yeah, it's gonna take corporations, governments, small farms and the individuals all working together. It can't just be like I feel called to tell everybody how they are living life wrong. In my opinion that's not going to inspire the change that we need.
[00:45:52]
>> Sarah Wilds: It's interesting sort of these call out cultures affecting farms but-
>> Emma Hendel: I would say, I think that's sort of again like an 80-20 sort of deal. Where it's 80% of people are going to listen to your story and form their own opinions. 20% of people are already going to have their opinions formed and there's not going to be much change to that opinion.
[00:46:20]
>> Sarah Wilds: And they're just going to let everybody know regardless of who's sort of on the end.
>> Emma Hendel: That's right.
>> Sarah Wilds: The other end?
>> Emma Hendel: Right.
>> Sarah Wilds: Yeah.
>> Emma Hendel: Because that's more about a personal need to do that sorta thing for your own improvement of your self-image. [LAUGH]
>> Sarah Wilds: Or whatever is going on.
[00:46:40]
>> Emma Hendel: Yeah.
>> Sarah Wilds: With that person.
>> Sarah Wilds: So what are those some other organisations that you partner with? I know you were saying that you were talking with Whole Foods or working with Whole Foods?
>> Emma Hendel: Yeah, we work with Lowe's foods, we work with Barbee Farms under Lowes food CSA program.
[00:46:59]
We also [COUGH] we're trying to form a relationship with Whole Foods, we're in our local Lowe's Foods on the shelf there. We work with Organic Harvest, which is a small grocery store in Charlotte. We also work with Let it Grow Produce and Colony Urban Farms store in Winston and Salem.
[00:47:25]
Those are two little local grocery stores that sell local products. We also, I'm a member of the Piedmont Culinary Guild. We're members of Carolina Farm Stewardship Association. And I'm actually a member of a Piedmont Triad Food Council. Which is just forming this year and so those are organizations that we work with.
[00:48:00]
>> Sarah Wilds: And how did you sort of get started with all these organizations? Like a lot of word of mouth, sort of knowing people who connected you or?
>> Emma Hendel: Well CFSA was Our friend Ben and so we became members of CFSA and they actually gave us a grant to pay for our first year GAP certification.
[00:48:23]
And they offered, as part of our membership we had access to consultation about getting a template for GAP's paperwork. Having a great woman named Patricia actually came out and looked at our farm and said, these are the changes that you need to make. And so that's a great organization.
[00:48:45]
They also have a conference every year for farmers that's usually held in Durham, and so that's a great way to connect. Piedmont Culinary Guild I got involved with because of our relationship with chefs and other food and beverage industry members. And so that they also have a conference, a symposium every year that's held in Johnson & Wales, the culinary school.
[00:49:14]
And so I'm a part of that organisation to stay in touch on a deeper level with our customers. And then also staying up to date on what's going on in the food and beverage world. And the food policy council, I actually, I don't know who necessarily invited me to that, but that was something that I go invited to do.
[00:49:45]
So I'm excited to see what direction we're going to go with that.
>> Sarah Wilds: Well, just sort of a wrap up question. Where do you see sort of the future of your farm now that you've hit that five year or about to hit that five year mark?
>> Emma Hendel: Yeah, so I would eventually, we're in the process of hopefully purchasing the farm that we lease now.
[00:50:13]
And in the future I would love to purchase some more rural land. And I would love to hand over management of that farm to another farm manager. And design a whole new project in the future, like maybe we'll grow acres and acres or broccoli, or maybe, who knows what we'll do.
[00:50:40]
And maybe even having our farm now becoming like a model farm or an incubator farm, or maybe an agrotourism farm, just because of its location. And so that's maybe one direction it could go. It could also turn in, we're still not quite done developing that property in terms of how we're gonna use it for farms.
[00:51:12]
Maybe we put in a tree nursery or maybe we put in some cane fruit, or there's a little bit more that we could do there. One thing that we've talked about doing with our land that is unoccupied right now is doing a more serious composting effort. And so we create a lot of compost, which we manage and reuse for various farm things, because we're doing the microgreens, and that's in trays.
[00:51:49]
And then once we use that we dump it into a compost pile and compost it. Anyways, enlarging a composting effort, perhaps even taking in materials from other places maybe, but that presents its own complication because it's difficult to figure out what you're taking in and you don't want.
[00:52:16]
But the compost that we generate, we know what it is, cuz we use a lot of potting soil. And so a lot of that great organic matter is really good to put back or used to build new growing areas. So that's one thing. So starting new projects, buying more land, growing more food, that's what I wanna do.
[00:52:42]
>> Sarah Wilds: All right, sound like a good goal.
>> Emma Hendel: Yeah.
>> Sarah Wilds: Right, well, thank you so much for your time.
>> Emma Hendel: You're welcome.
Correll Farms - David Correll
David Correll recounts his family farm’s history dating back to the late nineteenth century as he discusses how the farm has changed over its long history. He outlines how his father and uncle spent their time on the farm growing tomatoes for extra pocket money. This operation grew larger and is now the largest crop Correll Farms produces. David reflects on the changes to the farms operations from issues such as a downturn in the dairy industry resulting in them selling their cattle in 2005 after over 50 years as a Grade A dairy farm. He also explains how the fateful 9/11 attack could have drastically affected their farm. David covers topic such as the changes in safety processes in farming, organic farming, GMOs, and the impact of international agricultural markets on the farming industry in America. His experiences include constructing a hydroponic system and chemical mixing station on his farm in attempts to successfully produce healthy crops and find new ways for people to farm. He also talks extensively on farmers markets, and their future in Charlotte. He ends his interview reflecting on the future of agriculture.
| Time | Subject |
| 0:00:07 | Interview begins |
| 0:00:33 | Childhood on the farm and his college education |
| 0:01:10 | Dicusses crop and livestock production on the farm |
| 0:02:31 | History of the Correll Farms |
| 0:05:55 | Talton, David's grandfather, started a Grade A Dairy in 1938 |
| 0:06:34 | In 2005, they sold their dairy cows and focused on vegetables |
| 0:06:53 | His father and uncle's experiences of growing tomatoes in the 1950s |
| 0:07:37 | His father and uncle formed Correll Brothers Farm |
| 0:08:17 | Expansion and transition of Correll Brothers Farm into Correll Farms LLC |
| 0:09:20 | Increased production of vegetables and started participating in retail |
| 0:10:04 | His routine on the farm (on the day of the interview) |
| 0:11:26 | Changes in farm's operations over the years |
| 0:14:51 | Discusses the process of selling land during September 2001, and possible ramifications from 9/11 on the sale |
| 0:18:15 | Working with neighboring farm to work on rented land they had previously sold |
| 0:19:01 | His passion for dairy farming and the reasons behind their move away from the industry |
| 0:21:56 | Sustainability in agriculture and reasons why they do not farm organically |
| 0:24:10 | Misconceptions about organic farming |
| 0:26:01 | Changes in the chemicals and processes used in farming throughout the years |
| 0:27:14 | Dicusses the chemical mixing facility they built on the farm |
| 0:27:48 | The continuations and changes to food safety in agriculture |
| 0:29:24 | Impacts of the international agriculture industries on the US |
| 0:30:38 | International and national competition to selling his produce |
| 0:34:21 | Changes in the economy and its effect on his farm |
| 0:35:17 | Shifting to more retail due to population growth in the area |
| 0:36:02 | Escalation in land prices in the Charlotte area |
| 0:39:02 | Reasons behind installing a chemical mixing facility |
| 0:41:06 | Establishment of the Old Fashion Home Delivery program (CSA) |
| 0:43:59 | Experiences with their CSA program |
| 0:46:31 | Uses of social media in promoting their farm |
| 0:49:33 | Changes in their wholesale of tomatoes |
| 0:51:35 | Experiences with farmers markets in the area |
| 0:53:09 | Joined Fresh List in 2018 as a new avenue of sales |
| 0:56:42 | Participating in local fairs |
| 0:59:31 | Working with the Water and Soil Conservation and Natural Resources Conservation Service |
| 1:01:34 | Getting a Rural Advancement Foundation International (RAFI) grant and the requirements |
| 1:02:44 | Setting up a hydroponic system |
| 1:04:24 | Working with the North Carolina Agritunity on the hydroponic system |
| 1:06:42 | Detailing what a hydroponic system is and how it did not work for the farm |
| 1:08:42 | Family work on the farm during the winter months |
| 1:10:03 | Hispanic workers on the farm as well as highschoolers and teachers working over the summer |
| 1:12:46 | Details how he hires hispanic laborers for the farm and why he hasnt used the H2A program |
| 1:15:58 | Misconceptions of GMOs |
| 1:19:47 | Biggest issue he has faced growing GMO sweetcorn and the ways he educates his consumers |
| 1:22:52 | The future for his farm |
| 1:23:45 | Increasing wholesale and how wholesale markets have changed |
| 1:24:46 | Increase in farmers markets and the impact on the farmers |
| 1:25:47 | Plans to establish a retail stand of his own |
| 1:27:53 | Agriculture is getting tougher in the current economy |
| 1:31:42 | Interview ends |
[00:00:08]
>> Laura: Okay. Hello, my name is Laura Burgess, and I'm a graduate student at UNC Charlotte. The date is the 29th of March 2019. The time is 5:26 PM. I'm here with David Correll at Correll Farms. Hello, David.
>> David: Hi.
>> Laura: So let me just begin with my first question.
[00:00:28]
So how long have you been a farmer?
>> David: I guess I've been a farmer all my life. I grew up here on the farm. I was born in 1974 here in Saulsbury, which is about 15 minutes from the farm and returned to the farm a few days after birth and had been playing in the dirt here ever since.
[00:00:51]
I graduated from college in 1996 so I actually started full time on the farm around the 1st of June 1996.
>> Laura: So a while. [LAUGH] So what kind of crops or livestock do you grow?
>> David: Currently, our farm, we're growing about 20 acres of tomatoes, that's our main crop.
[00:01:13]
We also grow about 150 acres of field crops, corn and soy beans depending on the year and the rotation. Around half and half each of those. So around 75 acres of each of those. We've got 27 head of beef cattle that we graze about 40 acres of pasture.
[00:01:36]
We do cow calf operations, so we sell all of our calves as stockers. Or as the females a lot of those go as replacement heifers to other farmers. To their herds. And we grow about 40 acres of hay crops each year. And then we also do about six to eight more acres of vegetables, which are just various vegetables, about three or four acres of sweet corn.
[00:02:08]
And then the balance of that is in spring greens, squash, cucumbers, cantaloupes and many different things that we use for retail.
>> Laura: Okay.
>> David: At farmers markets and through our CSA.
>> Laura: Okay. So can you tell me a little bit of history about farms. I know it's the 6th generation.
[00:02:28]
>> David: Right.
>> Laura: So can you tell me a bit more about that?
>> David: Yeah, I'm actually the 5th generation here on the farm and my kids are the 6th. Our farm was purchased in the late 1800s by Martha Isabelle Corell. Martha was married a widower in around 1879.
[00:02:53]
He had had children by a previous marriage. And so when she married him, he had children from his first marriage that were older and they had my great, great, actually just my great grandfather Towton. Well, no, yeah. Get's a little confusing. They had a son, Franklin Edgar Correll.
[00:03:27]
He was born in 1880. Her husband passed away shortly after Franklin was born. So she was widowed, had a son, the children by the previous marriage actually inherited the family farm of his. And so Martha was left with a son and really nothing, no home place, nothing to do.
[00:04:03]
Because everything, by the times back then, everything was inherited by the oldest son. So she actually in the late 1800s, purchased this track of land, which at that time was about 40 acres. For her and her son, Franklin Edgar. Franklin, so Franklin inherited the farm from her. He married Josie Bell Killian who was actually was his wife.
[00:04:39]
And they had a son Hubert Towton Correll in 1905 and that was my grandfather. He was the oldest of I guess about six children. And so the farm was passed on to him. He had brothers that farmed as well. Two of them actually purchased, well one brother purchased an adjoining farm to us.
[00:05:05]
A sister, she and her husband, she married a gentleman that had a farm. About half a mile from here. One of the brothers, Franklin, was a World War two veteran that went on to North Carolina State and was a professor at North Carolina State. One sister moved away and married a gentleman in Pennsylvania.
[00:05:28]
So Granddad Talton was left here on the farm, to manage the home farm. He started by raising some produce back in the 20s. And then started milking a few cows. And in 1938 Granddad started Grade A Dairy.
>> David: My father was born in 1943, my uncle in 1944.
[00:06:00]
Granddad always said he was too young for World War one and too old for World War two. So he never was drafted or went to war. Cuz he was just kinda in that strange age bracket at that point, he's just too young or too old. So he started the Grade A Dairy in 1938 and continued to have a dairy until 2005.
[00:06:31]
In 2005 we sell the milk and herd the cattle and switched to primary vegetables. The kind of funny thing is, my father and my uncle, in the late 50s when they were turning 16 and wanted some spending money, my granddad encouraged them to start growing tomatoes. They wanted spending money, they needed something to add to the farm so he said, you know, why don't you grow some tomatoes.
[00:07:01]
Because he had grown them back in the 20s when he was around and there are some other tomato growers here in the community. So they started planting a few tomatoes and along with having the dairy cattle. And they continue to have the tomatoes my dad put that first crop and in 1959, so we're still we've been continuously growing tomatoes here since then.
[00:07:23]
My uncle Tawton Jr. how to work on the farm. He and dad after granddad retired formed Correll Brothers Farm and so he and dad farmed together. I guess they started that in the late 70's it actually changed to Correll Brothers Farm. With the two of them managing the farm and operation.
[00:07:57]
In 2001 my dad and uncle had inherited some land that my grandfather has bought in the 60's. That's about three miles from the home farm here, and- [SOUND]
Is he picking her up?
>> Laura: Yeah, it's fine.
>> David: So the land that they had inherited is about 100 acres.
[00:08:28]
My dad and uncle agreed to sell that property. And my dad was able to use his share of that money to purchase my uncle's share of the home farm and the buildings and the cattle and everything here at the farm. So that was the best way that we could transition from the two brothers owning the farm to my parents owning the farm exclusively at that point.
[00:08:57]
So the farm was transferred to, at the time of that sale we change the farm name to Carrell Farms LLC. Formed the LLC with my mother and father and I as the three partners in Carrell Farms LLC. In 2005, we continue to milk cows till 2005 and in 2005 we decided to sell the milking cows and increase our amount of vegetables we're selling and growing.
[00:09:30]
And also start doing some retail on the tomatoes and added the beef cattle in 05.
>> Laura: Okay, awesome. Well it's a very extensive history, thank you. So can you describe a typical day on the farm, in the summer?
>> David: [CROSSTALK]
>> Laura: Yeah, so around about this time, I know it's difficult, it depends.
[00:09:54]
But say today, what was, what did you do?
>> David: Today was a good day. It's spring and we've had a really wet winter and early spring. So we're getting ready to start preparing ground for our corn crop. My uncle would spent the day tilling some ground and getting it ready for planting corn here in about three weeks.
[00:10:21]
I spent my day, first part of the day in the greenhouse. We're growing our tomato plants in greenhouse now, that we'll set out sometime around the middle of April. So I spent the day working in the greenhouse and watering the plants, and fertilizing them and continuing to get them growing.
[00:10:40]
My uncle came in and had a piece broke on a piece of the tillage equipment that he had. So he spent a few hours working on that. It's never a typical day. And I think that's what I enjoy about the farming. Is there's never, it's funny, my wife asked what are you gonna do today?
[00:11:02]
And I said, we're gonna use my plan, but that's probably not what gonna happen. [LAUGH] But then when it's all said and done.
>> Laura: Yeah, fair enough. So please, a long, long standing farm. Can you tell me more about the farming operations, and how they've changed over the years?
[00:11:21]
>> David: It's changed a lot. My grandfather, when he started milking cattle in 38, he put in a milking parlor to milk the cattle. He could milk well two cows at a time, he had two cows on each side of the parlor. And so he'd milk two cows, and then he could shift over and milk two more.
[00:11:46]
In the early 70s I guess they put in a parlor in a that they could milk five cows at a time. And thought that was really moving up. And speed up operations. In the late, mid to late 80s, we put in a parlor that we can milk 12 cows at a time, six on each side.
[00:12:10]
[COUGH] And the unique thing is, the cows were always milked within about 40 foot of where they were during that whole period. My granddad's original parlor.
>> David: We had closed and built the single five parlor over there in the 70s.
>> David: And actually, it was built right beside that other one.
[00:12:37]
When we got ready to expand the double six parlor, we actually remodeled the whole parlor that my grandfather had started with in 38. They had my dad, well, my grandfather was actually a partner in Rowan Milk Transport as well. So we had a local dairy here, Rowan Dairy, that my grandfather.
[00:13:03]
In addition to milking cows he also drove the milk truck and picked up milk at other farms in the community and took the milk in to Salisbury. As that changed in about 1970 they bought their first tractor trailer tanker for rolling milk transport. A funny story is, my mom and dad went to Wisconsin to pick that first trailer up, and both of my sets of grandparents were upset.
[00:13:35]
And standing there is my dad, and mom got ready to go on this journey to Madison, Wisconsin to pick up a new tanker trailer. And mom and dad got in the truck, and drove off. And mom said to my dad said, if we'd have told him I was pregnant with Brian who is my brother before they left.
[00:13:54]
He said they'd never have let us leave. So mom and dad left there in 70. That would've been in 1970 to go pick up the first tractor trailer to haul milk. And my dad actually drove the milk truck a lot. My uncle did more of the work with the cattle.
[00:14:14]
>> David: So in that partnership, they were able to work through that and actually be a part of that mill column business as well. Through the early 80s I guess.
>> Laura: I'm just gonna go back, cuz obviously this has been here for so long. I wonder, did, for example, World War one or World War two affect the farm in any way?
[00:14:38]
Or any kind of big events kind of throughout its history? If you could think of a specific example.
>> David: There's not been really huge impacts. I guess the blessing for us is when in the 2000s when we were prepared to sell the land and it was going to be the opportunity for the farm to transition from two brothers to one.
[00:15:08]
Which is the only way that it was gonna give me the opportunity to come back to the farm. The problem with farms and the transition of farms now is the value of the farm is so high. The equity's here, but it's really hard to ever make enough money to be able to buy out another partner.
[00:15:33]
And so we had the opportunity to sell that 100 acres of land which It'd only been in the family for about 40 years. In order to a company that was gonna put in maybe a gas powered electrical generating plant. And it was tough to be able to figure that out, to see whether we wanted to let that land go, to be able to do that or not.
[00:16:00]
But the decision was made, all the paperwork was worked up to sell the property. And the company that had the auction on the property was called Entergy out of Louisiana. They had to pick the option up on that property before September 9th. On September 9th, they picked up the option on that property and on September 11th was the bombing of the World Trade Center.
[00:16:31]
So it's kinda unique. If that bombing had happened two days earlier, there's a really good chance that that company, and they told us this all along, that there is a really good chance they wouldn't have picked up that option on that property because of they would've probably extended it, but probably maybe not picked up that option at that time.
[00:16:53]
So we are really blessed. Well, I feel that we're really blessed that we were able to make that transition. But that event in itself, had it happened two days earlier or three days earlier, could have probably, and it maybe changed the way everything is now as far as how we would have made the transition from Carrell Brothers to Carrell Farms.
[00:17:17]
>> Laura: You wouldn't think something like that would affect farming in another state.
>> David: Right, but it was just the fact of the uncertainty of those weeks and months that followed that. That company had no idea what might happen after that. Putting in another generating plant probably wouldn't have happened.
[00:17:42]
But the irony of it is they never built the plant anyway.
>> Laura: I was just about to ask that. [LAUGH]
>> David: And we actually farmed that land up until 2016. We rented it from the power company. In the fall of 2018, they actually have put solar panels on part of that farm.
[00:18:02]
There are still some open land there that will be farmed, but we have a neighbor that we work really closely with that's actually gonna do that, continue to farm about half of that 100 acres with us, as we transition and my dad got older and my uncle's older.
[00:18:27]
At this point, they're 76 and 74. I'm not as passionate about growing corn and soybeans and row crops like that. So the ability to have another farmer work that ground and everything makes me glad that he's able to do that and I can stay here and concentrate on the vegetables and that sort of thing.
[00:18:54]
>> Laura: Is that your passion, then, growing vegetables?
>> David: I really enjoy it. It's funny, my degree is in animal science from NC State. So I went to college with intentions of coming back home and dairy farming, which is what I did for nine years. But the economy of the dairy business, we were milking around 120 dairy cattle.
[00:19:23]
>> David: The dairy economy was changing at that point, and really we would've needed to expanded the dairy herd to probably in the 4 to 500 cow range to have been profitable in the way we were doing things. We actually had the top herd of dairy cattle in North Carolina and the Southeast in the 2000s.
[00:19:46]
We had the highest milk production of any herd in the Southeast. The first herd in North Carolina for their cows to average over a 100 pounds of milk per day. So, it was pretty hard. It was a pretty tough decision to say it was time to sell the cows.
[00:20:10]
As the years have gone by, we're 14 years removed from that almost now, the dairy economy has not changed. It's tougher now to be a dairy farmer than it was in 2005 when we decided to sell, and it just solidifies our decision to have sold them when we did.
[00:20:35]
We sold at a time where we were still able to get a premium for our cattle, and,
>> David: Pretty happy that that's the way it turned out. I do miss the dairy cattle. I miss the daily challenge of, with a plant you plant a new variety of tomatoes or a new vegetable and it's three months, four months before you really know whether you did something right.
[00:21:01]
With the dairy cattle, the challenge always was I could tweak a feed ration, I could change what I was doing a little bit, and within two or three days I could tell whether I'd done something right or not. So it was the science of dairy farming was a lot of fun.
[00:21:18]
And I miss that daily challenge of what's gonna happen if I do this. It makes you a mad scientist when you're a dairy farmer. The vegetables, you still have those changes you make and decisions you make and they'll impact things, but it's not the instant gratification or instant deflation that the dairy cattle had.
[00:21:43]
>> Laura: Yeah, of course. [LAUGH] So talking about the vegetables you grow, do you farm organically?
>> David: We do not.
>> David: The question of organic or not is something that we get every day at the farmer's market. It's a question we get all the time. Sustainability is a buzzword now in the farming industry, and especially in the produce industry, and one of the keys to sustainability is the ability to continue the farm, to continue to grow things, and to be profitable as well as protecting the soil, protecting the environment for future generations.
[00:22:40]
And for us, on the scale that we are, I think it's really tough to farm totally organically, especially with the tomatoes. The tomatoes have so much disease pressure that it's really tough to use the organic chemicals and sprays to handle everything. With that being said, we scout our fields every week.
[00:23:05]
We target what pests there and we try to use the most in evasive thing that we can to handle those pests. I think a lot of folks look at organic farmers and think of a guy with a straw hat and overalls on and a hoe in his hand.
[00:23:35]
I wore overalls all day today. But I think on a larger scale organically grown produce probably is truly no safer than what we're doing. The organic guys are using a lot of different sprays. Just because they're carbon-based doesn't necessarily mean that they're a safer product for the consumer or for the farmer to use either.
[00:24:03]
And that's one of the biggest misconceptions is that the organic guys don't use any spray.
>> David: Especially when you look at the large-scale organic producers, they're probably spraying fields. More often than we are. So, we made the commitment to protect the environment, to protect the sustainability of the farm, and to use, I think, everything we have, whether it's fertilizer's, whether it's sprays, farming practices and everything else.
[00:24:40]
We call it our tool box. You have all these items in your toolbox. Whether an organic spray or inorganic spray or certain type of fertilizer and I think you have to for us, we open the toolbox, and we try to find the best product that we can use for what we're doing to maintain the sustainability, to protect the environment, and to protect the farm.
[00:25:06]
And that's a tough thing to do a lot of days, cuz that's where it adds to that mental level of what you do and we talked about the dairy cows earlier and how that was a challenge and how you could change things on a daily basis. And that's kind of my new challenge that we look at is research looking at what the best product is to use each and every day.
[00:25:40]
>> Laura: So you would say that this increased interest in organic produce, and obviously the buzzword of sustainability has kind of influenced the way you farm?
>> David: I think a lot has changed since the 60's when farmers that a one point, were using some chemicals that were pretty nasty.
[00:26:10]
They were available, they were, it was just, it's what everybody did. I think as a younger farmer, the chemical companies and everybody else have really changed their processes. I think the research, the work with FDA and with USDA, on products is totally different than it was 40 or 50 years ago.
[00:26:45]
Every product that we have now has gone through so much scrutiny. It's gone through so much testing and time and
>> David: And research that I think we can feel a lot more comfortable now with what we're using than what the older guys did 50 years ago.
>> David: It's as simple as here on the farm now we have a chemical mixing facility that we mix our sprays for our tomatoes and our vegetable crops in.
[00:27:20]
It's a self-contained facility that we're able to fill up the sprayers. We've got gloves, we've got a respirator, I've got everything that I need, as far as what the label reads to be able to mix those sprays safely. We're spraying now with tractors with cabs on them. I don't know that produce safety is a lot different than it was back 30 years ago.
[00:27:50]
I think those guys were still doing things that was safe for people to consume. There wasn't an issue with consumer safety. But I think there was a lot of producer safety. The guys were spraying with some pretty crazy stuff, like DDT and everything else years and years ago.
[00:28:13]
With open air tractors. We are spraying now with a cab tractor. That has air filter that filters the cab air as it comes in and everything else. So the chance of those things harming us are a lot less. Every spray we use has a reentry period of time that we can't go back in the field after we spray it.
[00:28:37]
It's got a post-harvest interval, that after spraying certain things you can't harvest the crop for a day or two. And we adhere to that extremely strictly, and probably go a day or two longer most of the time than what's required. To ensure that we've got a safe product to go out.
[00:28:58]
But I don't think food safety has changed that much. I think our food supply here in the US is as safe as anywhere in the world. And as you look at it, we're producing. Food for the world now, but the world's also producing food for the US. There's no seasonality in the grocery stores anymore.
[00:29:23]
There's apples available 365 days a year. There's lettuce available 365 days a year. There's people buying green beans here that are grown in South America. There's people buying all these products, are available year round at the grocery store.
>> David: And so the US, I think, is doing a great job of producing a safe product.
[00:29:52]
I think some of the questionable things may come from, are other governments that are bringing produce into the US year round are they following the stricter guidelines as we are. So I think that the global aspect of agriculture is probably what scares me worse than the US.
>> Laura: Yeah.
[00:30:15]
>> David: Part of agriculture.
>> Laura: So talking about this kind of new global agricultural kind of, I guess in some respects, food ways from wherever, have you seen that affect how you do in terms of selling your produce? Because now there's more competition in some ways.
>> David: It makes it a little challenge.
[00:30:39]
We're selling tomatoes as our primary crop. And
>> David: And they're in the really year round now. There's tomatoes from Mexico coming into the United States. It used to be when we grew tomatoes you know even 25 or 30 years ago our competition was California, Florida, South Carolina.
>> David: And later in the season Virginia and Ohio.
[00:31:16]
Now we have a new player. There's a tremendous amount of tomatoes grown in greenhouses in Canada that are coming South. There's a tremendous amount of tomatoes grown in Mexico that are coming North into the United States. So it used to be. And I can remember when I was a kid.
[00:31:38]
Some of our tomato buyers here, we get offers from people in California that said, hey, I'm going to send you a truck load of tomatoes. And I say, well we don't need tomatoes, they we're going to send you one anyway. All we need out of it is the freight.
[00:31:51]
Which might not be a dollar or two a box. So we had to really watch some of that competition coming in from California that might totally wreck a tomato market that we had. Now, we have to watch tomatoes coming from, there's potential for it coming from two more nations not just the states.
[00:32:15]
And So, globally, we have an issue with that. And even on the farmer's market level, a simple crop like okra, that's a Southern staple.
>> David: You can see in the farmer's market. If some of the farmer's markets allow producers to buy some things to sell along with the crops that they're growing, they can get okra out of Florida as early as mid-April.
[00:32:49]
We can't have any okra grown here till around the middle of June. So you see a crop that comes into a market, like a farmer's market, that's coming from out of state that people are gonna buy and people are gonna love cuz they can get it early. It's not something that grocery stores carry a lot, but it's something that people crave.
[00:33:13]
So sometimes we see a crop like that, that's brought to the farmer's market. The customer base is not excited about it when they can get local okra. They've had their availability to buy okra for the last two months. And so it's kind of that way with tomatoes. We used to have a tremendous amount of folks that would come for locally grown tomatoes.
[00:33:44]
>> David: Because they haven't had a great tomato for in a month, since the last fall. But now they're able to buy tomatoes year-round in the grocery stores, so there's not some of that initial demand for a local product like it was. I can remember, gosh, when I was a kid, in the late 70s, our first tomatoes we'd sell for $50 a bushel.
[00:34:18]
Thatâs $1 a pound wholesale, which was great. Now our first tomatoes, 40 years later, we get $50 a bushel for a few of those first ones. So when you look at how the economy's changed and everything, when you're getting the same thing for a product you got 40 years ago.
[00:34:43]
With the increased cost of everything else around us from fuel to fertilizer to all the crop inputs, and living expenses, it's getting tougher and tougher to make a living doing it.
>> Laura: I'm sure. So what's some of the challenges or strengths of farming in the Charlotte area that you've seen.
[00:35:08]
>> David: I think as the population grows, I think our transition to doing more retail and doing more our old-fashioned home delivery, which is our CSA type program. I think we'll be able to, just with the increase in population, we should be able to, as we penetrate that market more, to be able to increase sales here from that.
[00:35:42]
>> David: And I think that's the biggest advantage to the growing population and the growing climate here in the Charlotte area. I think the biggest disadvantage is, as the population grows, prices for farm land continue to escalate. And a lot of that it is caused by some folks that may have farmland in that Charlotte regional area, that are selling that land, and they're moving north or south.
[00:36:22]
But for us, it would be them moving north and purchasing land,
>> David: Because there's a lot of tax advantages to if you sell land, to purchase more land. So they're able to sell land at a tremendously high price down in that Charlotte area. And then they're coming up here to buy land.
[00:36:48]
And so it's inflated the price of land here, just because they have excess money to spend. An example is my uncle's farm that's across the road here from us. It's a 100-acre tract that we would have really liked to have purchased. But that land wound up selling for around $7,500 an acre, which, for a 100-acre tract, sounds like a lot.
[00:37:17]
Sounds like maybe not such a terrible deal except the only access to the property is going across a railroad track. And so there's one way in, and one way out of that property. So it's not a property that would ever be developable, because it's only got that one access road into it.
[00:37:43]
The guy that bought it lived in the Davidson area, and had a large tract of land that adjoined Davidson College, and was able to sell that land for 40, $50,000 an acre. So he had a tremendous excess of money to be able to buy land in this area.
[00:38:06]
So that land went for $7500 an acre, whereas it's okay farmland, not what I would consider great farmland. Its rolling hills would be better for pastureland as far as an agricultural use. And at that, at 2,500 to $3,000 an acre would be the most the true farmer could be able to spend on that property.
[00:38:34]
So that's where there gets to be a disconnect in what we're able to do to expand or to increase here, really based just on land prices.
>> Laura: Of course, so you mentioned that, I'm gonna get back to one thing and then continue. You mentioned the chemical mix facility, is that a requirement of that size farm or?
[00:39:02]
>> David: It's not a requirement whatsoever. The North Carolina Soil and Water Conservation Service, which is a North Carolina government funded group, has money available for cost share for them to help pay for improvements that will help soil and water quality here in North Carolina. We applied for some help in funding that facility.
[00:39:38]
It was a facility that I felt like that if I have intentions of being here on the farm for a long time. I have kids that are sixth generation that both at this point are interested in coming back to the farm, or staying on the farm and continuing to change our business, but to keep continue farming.
[00:40:02]
And I felt like that was a real need here. We have tour groups here from time to time. We're not an agrotourism location, but we have a lot of school groups that come out just to To see the farm and that sort of thing, and for us to have to a building where we could mix those facilities, keep all our pesticides looked up in a locked room that's climate controled.
[00:40:32]
So we don't have a decrease in quality of those products from year to year. It seemed like a no-brainer, especially with some help with those cost share funds to be able to assist us in building that.
>> Laura: Okay then, and so now I'm gonna work back. So you mentioned the CSAs.
[00:40:52]
So I wonder, how long have you been doing that program?
>> David: This will be our sixth year that we've been doing that. We call ours our old fashioned home delivery program. My wife and I actually were on our way home from a meeting in Pennsylvania several years ago, and we were trying to think of ways to expand the operation, to expand sales and everything.
[00:41:19]
Because as my dad and uncle get a little older, managing the 20 acres of tomatoes is getting tougher and tougher all the time. It just takes so much man power, so much labor and management, that it's a harder thing for me to manage all that. So we were looking at ways to expand, and I love growing the variety of produce that we do.
[00:41:47]
>> David: I say everything from artichokes to zucchini, we grow anything and everything you can kinda think of that'll grow here.
>> David: And so we started talking about it, and thinking about how we wanted to work that program into our operation. And decided we'd call it the old-fashioned home delivery, kind of modeled after when the milkman used to bring milk to the door.
[00:42:16]
Kinda as a nod back to our days of being part of the whole Rowan Dairy here and Rowan County and Rowan Creamery before that. With still a lot of old guys here in the community that used to work for those coops and one gentleman that goes to church with us was one of the delivery men.
[00:42:35]
So that's how we decided to term it. We started the first year with around 30 customers in the Solsberry area. Have increased some every year. Last year we had around 90 families. We actually expanded last year into the Davidson Huntersville Cornelius area. And I think that's something that'll be interesting to see how it grows.
[00:43:03]
You see a lot of farms that do four or five hundred of those CSAs each year. I do not think I want to get that big with it, but it's a great opportunity especially this time of year. We're taking in the funding, the customer's pre-pay for the CSAs so during this late winter, springtime period
[00:43:26]
>> David: The income that's coming in from that, is what we can use for operating expenses to get us into the summer. Until we're really starting to sell a tremendous amount of tomatoes, and that sort of thing. So it's been a great fit as far as operational income, to be coming in early in the spring.
[00:43:48]
>> Laura: Great so your overall experience of that has been good then? You really-
>> David: It's good, it's fun for us. It adds a fun aspect to delivering to people's homes, and getting to know folks. And the interactions that we've had with the different families that receive our basket each week.
[00:44:11]
We do package ours in baskets, so a lot of folks just put it in a box, but we have a nice display, when folks get their basket, we hope it looks good, it's all filled in a basket and pretty. So we get a lot of Facebook likes, and social media shares and likes from organically through that, from people saying look what I got today on my porch.
[00:44:41]
So it's a good experience. It's been great to get to know the customers. We run for 15 weeks, we start late April and go through the month of July. And the reason for that, we've kind of found it about a 15 week season, we're able to give our customers a little bit of everything that we grow.
[00:45:03]
So they get the full experience of early season greens, and radishes, and turnips, and broccoli, and cauliflower. And then we transition in June to more squash, cucumbers, cantaloupes, tomatoes, watermelons, okra, peppers and that sorta thing. So they kinda get the full picture of what we grow. But they're also not getting worn out from getting too much of the same thing every week.
[00:45:31]
So the 15 weeks kind of gives them that summer full of vegetables. If they choose to, they can come shop with us at the farmer's markets. For August and September while we're still going to markets, but, they don't get tired of us doing it for 15 weeks. I think some folks that do 20 and 25 week CSAs, the people by the end of the time sort of, it begins to wear on them that gosh, we've got another basket here.
[00:45:58]
So with this we shorten the season, and that affords us time to, our children show sheep at the county fair, state fair. And different things and kind of gives us an opportunity not to have that on our plate. When fair seasons come and as we're trying to get corn and soy beans and that sort of thing harvested as well.
[00:46:22]
>> Laura: Okay, so you mentioned social media. Do you utilize that quite a lot in terms of trying to get your farm out there?
>> David: We do, we have a Facebook page, Correll Farms Red Barn Market, that we try to interact a lot with our customers on. My son, Talton who is 12 does Farming with Talton videos which are a lot of fun.
[00:46:50]
He is a born salesman, and it's funny we see 1500, 1000, 1500 views on those, depending on how they're shared, and how they're liked and how they go out. And his tagline for the videos always start with kinda him with his back to the camera and turning to it and saying, hello there I didn't see you,
[00:47:18]
>> Laura: [LAUGH]
>> David: Welcome to Farming with Talton. And it's so hilarious people will come out of the market, he'll be with me and they will be like hello I didn't see you, I mean it's his tag line, it's great, and it's kinda spurred its own little [LAUGH] thing for him.
[00:47:37]
It's hilarious to be in town, and people be like are you Talton from Farming with Talton? And it's like yeah that's me.
>> Laura: We're gonna have to check that out.
>> David: He's great, he does a great job with it and we had a lot of fun trying to share things.
[00:47:58]
It's simple things for us that we don't think about, but maybe how to pick a ripe watermelon. And it might be how peppers turn from green to red, or green to yellow. A lot or people think maybe peppers start out red. Well, a pepper has to start as green and transition to those colors.
[00:48:21]
He's also got some laying hens, and so a lot of his videos are about his chickens, and how he interacts with them. So it's always fun to do that, and I think that adds to our social media aspect a lot. People get tired of seeing pictures tomatoes or pictures of this and that because videos keep people engaged in our Facebook.
[00:48:44]
We have a website that we setup a couple years ago that we get a lot of traffic to we use it primarily for sales for our CSA for our delivery program. Don't really update it as much through the year. We try to drive people to the Facebook page to get their up to date information.
[00:49:04]
But you know, if we pick a lot of sweet corn and we're going to have corn or something different at the market on a Saturdays, we always try to post that. And try to encourage folks to come out and see us.
>> Laura: Great, so farmers' markets, as well as farmers' markets that had trouble last year.
[00:49:24]
Is there any other points of selling your produce.
>> David: Sales.
>> Laura: Yeah, sales, yeah.
>> David: Yeah, the tomatoes are probably 95% wholesale. Our tomatoes currently we have a buyer in Charlotesville Virginia that's buying probably 30 to 40% of our tomato crop. We have another buyer in Winston Salem that is probably buying somewhere in that range as well.
[00:49:56]
One in Ashville that buys some, and one in
>> David: Cane of Virginia. We used to sell a tremendous amount of tomatoes what we call the top of the mountain. That's going up 77 to and that area. There was a big group of produce wholesalers up in that area at one time and in the mid 80s we would take truckloads of tomatoes up there everyday.
[00:50:30]
Those guys have shrank in number tremendously. So we were blessed being able to find the gentlemen in Charlottesville that has handled a lot of our tomatoes. It's interesting growing up we put a 100 bushes on a pickup truck with a cover on the back and haul them an hour and a half or so.
[00:50:56]
About a load or two of those a day. Now we're packing everything in 25-pound boxes, and we've got a truck that we can haul 700 boxes on to go to Charlottesville and some of those areas. So, a lot more ease in In handling the tomatoes being on a pallet, being in boxes.
[00:51:19]
But we're also having to start going just a little bit further out than what we did back years ago, to actually move the product.
>> Laura: So do you do a lot of farmer's markets?
>> David: We're currently doing the Davidson farmers market and the Salisbury farmers market. Both of those are Saturday morning markets, both very good markets.
[00:51:41]
And that's another reason that we started our delivery program. But you have produce the first of the week that it's really hard to find a farmer's market that is, I'll say good on the earlier mid-week. People tend to buy their vegetables on Saturdays. Those markets are generally very good.
[00:52:07]
And any market that we've tried, Tuesdays, Wednesdays are pretty tough. You can sell some product, but it's a third of what a Saturday is. So it gets pretty hard to justify going to. Up until last year we sold at a Thursday evening market in Statesville. That was a good market for us but we were able to we increased our delivery numbers by about 25 families last year, so we just didn't have.
[00:52:39]
Enough product to retain that market. And it was a market that declined the last several years. So we were able to stop going to it.
>> Laura: So, is there any kind of local cooperative, opportunities with other farmers that you've been involved with or have you seen any in the area?
[00:53:05]
>> David: We started in 2018 working with freshly established Charlotte. They are an aggregator of produce for restaurants in the Charlotte area. We've tried in years' past to do some restaurant sales. But restaurants are a real challenge. One challenge is the chefs keep totally different hours than the farmers.
[00:53:28]
So that takes me 11 o'clock at night to say what they needed that week, while I was in bed and wake me up. And then I'd think about it at 6:00 in the morning when I got up to respond to them, and then dang if I wouldn't wake them up cuz they were in bed at that time.
[00:53:49]
And chefs to me by nature are a difficult group of people to deal with. They're great folks but they want everything ready that day. They're so used to being able to order from their wholesale distributors whatever they need that week. It's just like the grocery store they can order tomatoes year round.
[00:54:14]
They can get squash, cucumbers, whatever year round. But it's really hard for them even the higher end restaurants. And it's getting better to understand the seasonality of local produce. And, so this group, Fresh List out of Charlotte, started in 2017. And really got their foot in the door in '18.
[00:54:39]
But there's about 60-80 restaurants, I think, that they work with on a weekly basis. We send them on Thursdays a list of products we'll have available for them that week. And they send that to the restaurants. The restaurants place an order with them, and they call us on Monday or Tuesday and place their order to pick up Wednesday.
[00:55:09]
And then they take all this aggregated produce from several different farms and go into the restaurants. Where the restaurants are able to get a larger percentage of their produce from. Because they they're aggregating produce from several different farms, maybe 20 different farms, that each of us kind of have a unique group of produce that we're able to sell to them.
[00:55:35]
And that's been a good group to work with. I think that's the kind of thing that's gonna be able to get local produce in more and more restaurants. But it's also able to free us up to not have to make individual calls to restaurants. And Charlotte is just a hair too far for us.
[00:55:58]
We're about an hour from downtown Charlotte. So to be able to go, and it would take a day to go to those six rate different restaurants. Whereas now, our produce may be in 15 or 20 restaurants, but we're not leaving the farm. They're coming and picking that produce up, and delivering it to
[00:56:21]
>> Laura: Okay. Oops. I'm gonna roll back to another thing mentioned which I hadn't really thought about. It's these fairs cuz they're so fascinating. Do you do a lot of these fairs cuz you said that you'd like to freed off for this?
>> David: We did two or three county fairs and in the state fair each year, showing livestock.
[00:56:48]
The kids have shown goats, chickens, primarily sheep at these fairs. And it's just a lot of a good time, especially the state fair. That's in Raleigh in October each year. It's kinda great for me especially. I mean, the kids love it. They love interacting with the animals. But also they've got friends that will go spend several days in the barn at the fair grounds.
[00:57:17]
And they're able to play and everything. But it's also great for Cheryl, and my wife and I, being both graduates from NC State with animal science and agriculture degrees. So many of our friends have kids the same age. So it's almost like a reunion every year for us to be able to go.
[00:57:37]
And visit with folks, that we may not see but once a year but we catch up and especially before Facebook came along. These folks really had no idea what was happening with them every year or a year and so. The fairs are a great way for us to educate the public.
[00:57:56]
For them to see agriculture and to touch and feel what is happening on a daily basis on a farm. But it's also a reunion for us. I'm currently livestock director and on the board for Rowan County fair here in Salisbury. So I'm managing all the livestock shows and taking any treats for the shows and selecting judges and that sort of thing.
[00:58:23]
That's one way that I see that we're touching the community and being able to provide something. There's nothing like a good county fair or state fair for people really takes experience agriculture. The rides are there and the foods there. But if you really talk to the general public, viewing the agriculture and seeing the animals, we always take a.
[00:58:49]
Being on the Fair Board I can kind of find out how many entries they have in some of the produce categories and that kind of thing. And if there's things that are missing we try to take some of those items here from the farm to fill up the display and to be able to show folks.
[00:59:05]
I did account.
>> Laura: So you mentioned earlier that when construction of the chemical mix of service are used among subsidized-
>> David: All right.
>> Laura: Farming. So is there any other local government or community support that you've used, in terms of expanding your farm?
>> David: [COUGH] The soil and water conservation folks and NRCS, which is Natural Resources Conservation Service, which NRCS is a federally funded program.
[00:59:43]
Both of those programs gear money towards farms in a cost share program. Which I think is important. It makes the farmer put skin in the game. It makes the farmer look at what he really needs. So it's not money that's just coming. As a grant to pay for the full thing.
[01:00:12]
But we use them. Have used funds there to put in grass waterways around the farm to keep soil erosion down. We've used moneys through that for heavy use areas in our pasture that, and waters in the pasture that help keep our cattle out of the streams. And out of the branches and that sort of thing to help water that's flowing downstream.
[01:00:42]
So we're sending water through the farm It's just as good of quality when it passes through here then it was when it got here. Potentially better a lot of time. So those programs are government sponsored programs that really have helped improve. Maybe not so much our farm, but farms that are, farms and communities that are passed to us.
[01:01:12]
The only real grant opportunities that we've had, we several years ago received a grant from RAFI, which is the Rural Agricultural Foundation for. That they received money from the tobacco buyout or from the golden leaf foundation. Back years ago when they were encouraging farmers to stop growing tobacco.
[01:01:43]
There was a lot of funds that were put in to be able to help farmers transition to other crops, instead of tobacco. We never grew tobacco here on our farm, so it's kinda strange that we got a grant through them, but they were working on finding alternative. You could write a grant if there was something you could see as an alternative way to grow things.
[01:02:12]
But then you had to have cooperative extension services involvement. You had to be able to allow tours of what you were doing, and writing reports on what you were doing. So that if there was farmers who were looking to transition from tobacco, that they'd have some data points to be able to share.
[01:02:31]
Hey, this worked, or this didn't, or this was a new idea that you might want to consider. We got some money from them to help fund a hydroponic system here. To be able to grow some plants in the water, in the tunnel of a hydroponic system. These are utilizing vertical hydroponics.
[01:02:57]
And it was a unique system. That we never could get to work here.
>> Laura: How are they?
>> David: It's a system that in Florida works really well outdoors. They're able to grow a lot of strawberries in this system, and some lettuces, and that sort of thing. But here we we're really never able to make it work.
[01:03:25]
>> David: Not exactly a failure but it's something that I'm glad, it was a neat program. We were able to report that it wouldn't work very well here. Not on a scale for. That I thought that other farmers should do.
>> Laura: Uh-huh.
>> David: So honesty in the reporting was pretty important to us.
[01:03:46]
However, we did get some side benefits from it. Because this is a vertical hydroponic system
>> David: You could plant, harvest and grow things without bending, without stooping, without doing anything else. Because everything was from about 18 inches to about 6'0 high. Where we found a real use for it, we actually wound up working with North Carolina Agritunity that works with disabled farmers.
[01:04:20]
That works with VA hospitals. That works with other groups with people with disabilities. That they came and saw the system, and some of them have implemented that kind of system in training people that were maybe veterans at VA hospitals that were able to go out and get their hands in some dirt.
[01:04:45]
They could grow some things. Whereas we were looking at it from a profitability standpoint, they were looking at it as an opportunity for folks to get their hands dirty that couldn't get down in the garden and grow things. I actually have a friend that was a younger farmer.
[01:05:07]
He was in his 40s and had a stroke. And Chris loved to farm, he loved to do, was going to some farmer's markets and that sort of thing, and had a stroke and basically lost the use of one side of his body. I invited Chris out, and I said, look, man, this is what you need.
[01:05:29]
And he fell in love with the system, put some up outside. I told him some things that I thought he could change that would make the system work where he could maybe use it to grow some things. And Chris was able to continue doing a little bit of farming and to at least grow his own vegetables using this system.
[01:05:52]
And he couldn't get down, he couldn't get in the dirt on the ground. But he was able to use this system to do that. So it's kind of a blessing that we got it, because I think it probably helped a lot. Maybe not a tremendous amount, but it helped some people not in production ag.
[01:06:12]
But it helped some of these other folks that you really weren't thinking about when I wrote the grant. We were writing the grant to try to make some more money, but that didn't happen. But it's helped some people along the way that you maybe wouldn't have thought about, so.
[01:06:33]
>> Laura: Just to someone who doesn't quite know what that is, do you wanna explain a bit more about?
>> David: What this is is there's a series of styrofoam pots that are stacked together, four to five pots in a stack. And the pots are about 14 inches square. And so they're stacked.
[01:06:56]
They're put on a pipe where they're stacked. The first pot is about 18 inches off the ground at the bottom. And then the next pot just sits on top catty-cornered on top of that pot. So they're stacked up where the corners are exposed of these styrofoam pots, and the plants are planted in the corners.
[01:07:20]
So you've got in a 14 square inch area, you've actually got five or six pots. So you've got from 20 to 24 plants in this small, very small space. So in a 30 by 48 greenhouse we had room for about 2,500 plants.
>> Laura: Wow!
>> David: Because they're in rows, and pretty densely placed in there.
[01:07:47]
We grew strawberries in it one fall with some limited success. And we grew some lettuce in there with some limited success. But what we found is we really couldn't extend our season and provide these things earlier by using this system. We could grow things in about the same season that we could grow them outside.
[01:08:14]
And so, we, with us being set up to grow outside, we could actually grow stuff maybe faster and a little better outside. So it just made sense for us to do that instead of in that greenhouse.
>> Laura: So do you have a labor force working? I'm assuming you have a labor force working on the farm.
[01:08:35]
>> David: We do, as of right now.
>> David: During this time of year when we're just kinda getting everything rolling, my uncle is still able to work full time.
>> David: He's here full time. He's not able to charge forward real fast. But he's got things he does. He does a lot of work with the cattle.
[01:09:00]
He does a lot of my tractor driving jobs. He's working up ground and kind of my extra set of hands here through the fall and the winter and early spring. My brother works for me here as an hourly employee now, as needed. He's starting, probably in a few weeks, he'll pretty well be full time through the first of November.
[01:09:32]
My dad's had some real health problems over the last three years, so he's not able to do a lot. But he's out and about some, and at least, thank goodness he's able to give a lot of advice, and to do some of that physical labor he's not able to do now.
[01:09:55]
But we also have a group of Hispanics here on the farm. Right now there's four Hispanics that are working. They work hourly probably from November to,
>> David: I'd say till we plant the tomatoes in mid April. They probably haven't worked more than 50 or 60 hours each during that time.
[01:10:26]
But they'll start once we set the tomatoes in the field. They'll be working full time doing that. We're in a position, our main Hispanic worker is Paulino. And Paulino's been here since 88. He's 62 years old now. His brother's here, Pedro, who is in his late 50s. Pedro's wife, Lucia, is here.
[01:10:56]
She's been here since,
>> David: Since the late 90s. And then we have another gentleman that's here, that's been here now for two or three years. They live here on the farm year round. Even though they're not working for us, we still continue to provide them housing during the wintertime.
[01:11:25]
They do pay the utilities during the winter, but not when they're working for us full time in the summer. But Paulino is able to, in the summer, we'll have easily about eight Hispanic laborers here all the time including the four that are here year round basically. Then we'll have, I've got another retired tomato farmer.
[01:11:54]
Johnny has worked for us the last four seasons. He's gonna be called in the wintertime, too, if we need some extra help. But he comes in and helps us, especially when we're harvesting and grading tomatoes and packing them. And then we've got a couple of high school kids that'll come and work for us.
[01:12:17]
And we've got a few ladies that are teachers during the school year that are looking for some summer work that help us. And then my wife does a lot of the deliveries and does all the paperwork for the deliveries, and that sort of stuff. So we just sort of all get it done as we go.
[01:12:38]
>> Laura: How do you find your workers?
>> David: Our Hispanic labor, I call it the friends and family of Paulino plan.
>> Laura: [LAUGH]
>> David: Paulino will let me know, he and I will talk, and talk about how many folks we need. He's got a huge family here, they're all actually all from El Salvador.
[01:13:10]
>> David: Paulino has been able to always find legal good labor for us to hire. So we haven't had to use any of the government programs like the H2A program yet to do. We're kinda in a unique position. We've been living here year round and working for us. We're not paying as high wage as what the H2A workers make.
[01:13:42]
So we're actually saving some money on our labor costs. We're on our labor by the hour doing that. But with Paulino and Pedro, we see in their late 50's and 60's, they're also probably not as productive as if we had some younger folks coming in from the H2A labors.
[01:14:10]
So that's a challenge that we have that they're not able to work as quickly and as strongly maybe as some of these laborers that we could bring in through H2A program. But Paulino's been here since I was 14 years old. Been here 30 years, so he's, he's almost like an uncle to me.
[01:14:37]
He's been around. I took some Spanish in high school, I took some Spanish in college and I've been with him so much when I was in high school, I was in the field all summer working side by side with him, and Paulino doesn't speak any English, he doesn't try to speak English.
[01:14:57]
And so, our method of communication is all in Spanish, good or bad.
>> David: And so, that's, they're family, they're family. I'll sit down with them and go back to their homes, and sit down and talk couple evenings a week and hang out with them. And we try to treat them like family, so.
[01:15:29]
>> Laura: Okay, so, is there any aspect of farming that you think people donât consider or misunderstand from your experience of talking with the community who aren't in agriculture?
>> David: I think the biggest issue today in 2019 is GMO products. I think there's a huge misunderstanding, we've talked about social media some, and social media tends to perpetuate a lot of falsehood about farming, a lot of, It begins to perpetuate a whole lot of falsehoods about farming, a lot of things that as a farmer, I think we're our own worst enemy because we won't combat false falsehoods.
[01:16:24]
It's a lot easier to get mad and say I can't believe they said that. Than it is to challenge folks back and try to really educate people. GMO's have been around for a long time. We're probably the most studied thing in the world over the last 20 years.
[01:16:43]
As to the health aspects of GMOs to the and to the ability to continue to feed this world that we're living in, GMOs are probably gonna be a key to be able to do that, with the increased production levels, with the increased. Everybody thinks of GMOs as just products that you can spray around up on the, to use as a weed killer.
[01:17:19]
There's GMO oranges coming out that are. There's just some diseases that have done a tremendous amount of damage to the Florida citrus crop. So, for us to be able to continue to grow different products and to grow products that have been here in the US forever, some of these GMOs are gonna be a key to be able to combat some diseases that have come in that are challenges.
[01:17:55]
There's a lot of studies out there that have shown that the activists use to show GMOs as bad. But I've done research after research. Personally, I've read not only, I try to read both sides of the issue. I read a book a few months ago that was an anti-GMO book, and trying to read those things to see where consumers are coming from on some other things.
[01:18:40]
And it's always interesting, the anti-GMO information that's out there, absolutely none of it is science-based. It's scientific theory but there's no true scientific research that have gone through the scientific model, that I have seen, that are, that have proven anything wrong with GMOs. There are scenarios that are out there that people perpetuate and that sort of thing.
[01:19:17]
But none of it is actually using a true scientific model with a control group and a. In another group that shows if there's anything wrong and then you read data from trial after trail that have been done with correct scientific method that have shown there's no issues. Our crop here that I have the most challenges with is a GMO sweetcorn that we raise and we go to a farmer's market and there's customers that will say is this GMO?
[01:20:02]
In my answer, I'm always totally honest with our consumers and my answer is yes and when they get ready to turn away? I say can I tell you about it? And that's where farmers have to educate the consumers. We grow a GMO sweet corn that is resistant to Roundup, but also the main reason we grow it is it's resistant and has the Bt gene in it that protects it from corn earworms.
[01:20:41]
With that corn, we never spray any insecticides on it, because it has that Bt gene in it.
>> David: Corn that is not GMO, in the summer here, has to have probably eight or ten sprays,
>> David: Of some insecticides that, they're not that bad. I mean, they're not what I would consider a really dangerous or a bad insecticide, but they take about eight sprays of this pesticide.
[01:21:16]
So for me I would prefer growing the GMO, than having something that I have to spray eight times during the season to ensure a product that is safe, and healthy, and everything else. And the problem is the consumers want non-GMO sweet corn that's never had a spray on it, but they don't want a worm.
[01:21:42]
And so they can't have the cake and eat it too on that. So there's a level of understanding that the consumers have to have that they can't have that. It just doesn't happen. Not in the south, not in July and August, you're not gonna have corn without worm in it sometimes, and,
[01:22:06]
>> David: So most of the time if the customer will give me a couple minutes of their time, they will wind up buying it. But they have just seen that they need this, they wanna ask the question, but they don't really know why they're asking it. And so that's where we have to educate them, why farmers need to speak out as to why we do do some things that we do.
[01:22:33]
>> Laura: Right, so what is the future that you see for your farm? And then I'm gonna ask a more expansive one, on farming in Charlotte? So whichever one you want to tackle.
>> David: Right, here on our farm, that's the tough question.
>> David: I truly see myself as farming continuously for,
[01:23:03]
>> David: For my lifetime. My kids are 12 and 15, I would like nothing more than for them to be able to stay on the farm and to earn a living on the farm as they do. But there's a lot of challenges in that, and,
>> David: I think being able to retail more of our products or to get an increase of our wholesale, whether it's through the restaurants or through retail, will be a key to being able to do it.
[01:23:43]
Because as we see with the wholesale markets, the profit margin keeps decreasing. And there's really no control as we get into the global markets, as we talked about. Farmers don't set their price on any of these wholesale products anymore. Produce is becoming a commodity, just like corn and soybeans, that is priced on a global market.
[01:24:12]
You get what you get that day for it depending on how much of it's out there. With retail you can have a little more control on what you're doing, and that sort of thing. So I think we will continue to transition a little more to the retail, but in saying that too, well, this area is becoming more and more saturated with farmer's markets.
[01:24:43]
Over the last 10 years I bet I've been asked to go to 20 different farmer's markets, new farmer's markets. Hey, we're starting one at a hospital. Hey, we're starting one in downtown Charlotte. Hey, we're starting a new market in Morrisville, we're starting one here and there. And every time we do that, every time a new market opens it dilutes an existing market.
[01:25:11]
Because you're taking customers that have been buying produce somewhere to go to a new market.
>> David: And so it may end up being a survival of the fittest kinda thing, where eventually some of these markets are gonna close. It's gonna increase the ability of the existing markets to get a little stronger, but,
[01:25:39]
>> David: I would see ten years from now we would probably have a stand alone retail place here on the farm somewhere. If not actually on the farm, in the Salisbury area. Where we're able to retail products that we grow plus possibly some other farmers as well.
>> David: And possibly more year round basis.
[01:26:08]
I think we have to look at, we've typically not grown any produce that we sell from November to mid April.
>> David: I think we're gonna have to try to find ways and products that we can grow continuously through the year,
>> David: In order to increase income through the farm.
[01:26:30]
If both kids want to stay on the farm, you have to look at adding enough things to be able to generate enough money for them to be able to do it. And I think that with cost of insurance, with cost of everything else that we look at now.
[01:26:51]
I think that's where we're gonna have to look at some expansion in some of the produce we grow instead of some of corn and soy beans, because corn and soy beans are great products to grow. They're a great thing to grow in rotation with some vegetables, but the profitability of them has gone down tremendously over the years.
[01:27:18]
So we're gonna have to look at utilizing what we have and expanding some of those retail markets and that sort of thing, to be able to do that.
>> Laura: And I'll end it with this last question, and is there anything else you want to add? Is there any questions you thought I should've asked, or?
[01:27:46]
>> David: No, I think it's getting tougher. I think it's getting tougher for all agriculture.
>> David: And it's maybe not just agriculture, but it's everybody. If you look at prices and everything else, and if we're talking about how commodity prices and agriculture prices haven't changed very much in 40 years For a farm and a farm family to survive, it just takes so much more income now than it did 40 years ago.
[01:28:33]
My parents had a $200 or $300 a month house payment. They had a $20 phone bill and a $50 phone book. We look at what expenses we have as a family now with a thousand dollar month house payment.
>> David: A phone bill that includes your Internet that's $130 a month.
[01:29:04]
If I told my parents 40 years ago we'd pay $70 a month to watch TV, then they'd say you were crazy.
>> Laura: [LAUGH]
>> David: All those things add up so fast now. That we've got to try to figure out a way to increase profitability on the farm. And increase money generated so much just to be able to live like our parents did.
[01:29:30]
And that goes for everybody whether you're a doctor, a lawyer, a farmer or whatever. But I think that's where the challenges is gonna come the increase in farm income has lagged behind. A lot of other aspects, and we have to get to a point where the farmers can demand enough from their crops to be able to get a living wage.
[01:30:02]
>> Laura: Mm-hm.
>> David: We have so much money invested here our return on investment [COUGH] is just not high enough. And that's where it's so much easier for farmers to get out and stop farming than it is to continue. We've probably with land value, equipment value.
>> David: And everything else, there's probably a couple million dollar investment here.
[01:30:36]
And that's a tremendous amount for the return that we get on our investment each year. And so we have to look at ways and hope as we move forward that we can increase that return on investment. It's crazy over year. Insurance calls to that kinda thing, health insurance gets to be It's a tough thing.
[01:31:05]
Our health insurance is close to $2,000 a month. That's what it actually costs us.
>> Laura: Wow.
>> David: So to generate enough to pay for that is, I mean, that's just the economic challenge of the business we're in that makes it tougher for self employed folks. For folks that are trying to survive on land, that's an added cost that you just don't think about.
[01:31:35]
>> Laura: Mm-hm, okay. Thank you. Well thank you David for your time today, and we'll end it there.
Carolina Farm Trust - Zack Wyatt
Zack Wyatt was originally born in Texas but grew up in Loudoun County, Virginia where his family worked in farming. He received a degree in business administration from Coastal Carolina University in 2003, moving to Charlotte, North Carolina soon after. Mr. Wyatt currently lives in Cornelius, North Carolina and is the executive director of Carolina Farm Trust, a non-profit organization founded in 2015 which seeks to support local farmers and to educate communities on the importance of local food. Mr. Wyatt provides insight into the challenges local farming and spreading his belief in the need for strong local food sources. He also discusses his work on The Farmer That Feeds Us, a documentary which examines the food desert in West Charlotte and how it affects the area’s predominantly black population.
| Time | Subject |
| 0:00:07 | Introductions. |
| 0:00:48 | Mr. Wyatt introduces himself. |
| 0:01:12 | Mr. Wyatt discusses his personal history with farming. |
| 0:03:53 | Family’s farming history. |
| 0:05:09 | Moving to Cornelius, NC. |
| 0:05:42 | College education and business administration. |
| 0:07:27 | Starting Carolina Farm Trust. |
| 0:10:37 | Importance of personal farming history in beginning Carolina Farm Trust. |
| 0:12:58 | Mr. Wyatt discusses the Lomax Incubator Farm PSA. |
| 0:13:24 | Past and present goals of Carolina Farm Trust. |
| 0:18:47 | Geographical focus of Carolina Farm Trust. |
| 0:20:02 | Acquiring and leasing land for the Trust. |
| 0:22:36 | Acquiring funding as a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization. |
| 0:25:52 | Mr. Wyatt’s interest in creating The Farmer that Feeds Us. |
| 0:31:21 | Mr. Wyatt discusses the planned Three Sisters Market in West Charlotte. |
| 0:33:37 | Differences and challenges between black-owned farms and white-owned farms. |
| 0:36:52 | Mr. Wyatt describes challenges farmers he works with face. |
| 0:42:37 | The importance of urban farming and educating urban communities. |
| 0:49:16 | Carolina Jubilee, its purpose, and its accomplishments. |
| 0:52:05 | How Charlotteans can support local farmers. |
| 0:53:17 | Mr. Wyatt directs a question at the interviewer. |
| 0:56:46 | Conclusion of interview. |
[00:00:01]
>> QW: Okay, so my name is Quinn Whittington and I am interviewing Zack Wyatt on April 1st, 2019. I'm conducting the interview at Summit Coffee Company in Davidson, North Carolina. Zack is the executive director of the North Carolina Farm Trust. This interview is part of the Queen's Garden Oral Histories of the Piedmont Food Shed.
[00:00:21]
An oral history project conducted by graduate students from the University of North Carolina at Charlotte's public history program. This project seeks to collect the stories of those who grow, cultivate, produce, and distribute fresh foods in the greater Charlotte region. So first off, can you just introduce yourself, and maybe say your birthday, and where you were born?
[00:00:41]
>> ZW: Yeah, my name's Zack Wyatt, and my birthday is January 12, 1980. And I was born in Midland, Texas.
>> QW: [LAUGH] So I actually don't know much about your personal history. I didn't even know exactly where you were born. So, but with your personal history with farming, could you tell me where that interest develops, do you think?
[00:01:06]
>> ZW: Well I was born in Midland, which is in West Texas. And my family moved to Northern Virginia when I was five. So we moved to a 300 acre old dairy farm. So, the guy had died in the late 70s, I think early 80s, and then there was an attorney my dad knew that handled the property from a group of investors that bought it.
[00:01:29]
So, we were just kind of caretakers of it, but 300 acres is a lot. So we had to bush hog it every year. The state of Virginia actually paid them not to farm it. But we had a large garden, pigs and chickens, tons of horses. So that was kind of my childhood as you know, kinda growing up in that environment.
[00:01:53]
Not work and our neighbors had cattle. So that was my world in common sense for a long time. And I think when we all kind of grow up, that's just the common sense that we have. And so it was the greatest restore was definitely they supported our eating habits but I grew up on venison and pork.
[00:02:27]
And feed from the friends of ours and stuff like that. So the only thing we really bought at the store was just produced that wasn't in season, and chicken.
>> QW: So you have had a like a deep connection with organic foods and locally grown foods since you're-
>> ZW: Yeah I mean, wasn't organic.
[00:02:46]
I mean, the term organic is just such a vague term these days and I feel like there's more than a marketing point and anything. But yeah, it wasn't organic in our eyes at that time, it was just normal. [LAUGH] I think that's kind of a hard part of trying to differentiate conventional, organic and you need to, and we do as a family.
[00:03:13]
But it's interesting just looking at the whole concept and saying, here's food grown this way, and here's food grown this way. And it's such a critical part of our health, and the variance between them is huge. And how society looks on it, I always find it very interesting.
[00:03:36]
>> QW: So was your family into farming prior to the time you were born or was this-
>> ZW: No, and again, I would say, I grew up on a farm. We were not farmers, by any stretch of the meaning. Like I said, we just had a big garden, we had chickens and pigs.
[00:04:03]
We used the land, but I don't wanna portray something that's not true and kind of understanding farmers who receive 100% income from farming, there's a big distinction. But my dad was from West Texas, my mom was from White Plains, Hartsdale, kind of New York, a little bit West of the New York City.
[00:04:30]
But my mom left there right at 18 and went out west. So my mom's always been kind of big horse nut. But it was a great way to grow up. It was a lot of hard work and I was glad to go to college, and I knew I didn't want to be out in the field everyday.
[00:04:48]
[LAUGH] We all have our roles. But it's something that I have a great amount of respect for.
>> QW: So did you move from Texas to, I mean, you're in Cornelius, right?
>> ZW: Yeah, so we moved from West Texas in 1984 to go to Virginia. And so I was four and a half, five at the time.
[00:05:13]
And then I was there until I graduated high school. And then I went down to Old Dominion University for about a year, and then transferred to Coastal Carolina, down in Myrtle Beach. Graduated in 2003 and then moved to Charlotte that summer, so I’ve been in the Charlotte area for about 15 years or so.
[00:05:34]
>> QW: What did you do in university and what did you originally go for?
>> ZW: I was always business administration, I’ve always been very entrepreneurship in nature and always wanted to own my own business. And kind of catalyst of all this starting, I had kind of a business partnership back in 2010 to about 2014, that as partnerships sometimes in most the time do kind of blew up on me.
[00:05:59]
And I kind of got on the losing end of it, and it was kind of a redefining moment. And all this kinda just happened by accident with Carolina Farm Trust. But it is interesting to create something, and build something that you never own. There's part of it I don't like, but then there's a larger part that I do like it.
[00:06:24]
It's somehow mean, and I didn't know it at the time.
>> QW: So, you moved to North Carolina for University, right? And then-
>> ZW: Well, graduating from Coastal, going back to Northern Virginia meant moving back in with my parents. And that was just not going to happen. So I could take the nickels and dimes to Charlotte and kind of make my way on my own, but I could not do that going from Virginia.
[00:06:55]
The cost of living was just too expensive. So that was kind of the big deciding factor. We had some college friends that moved here, so it was kind of a collective migration.
>> QW: So do you think going to creating Carolina Farm Trust, it was kind of unexpected for you that you would do that?
[00:07:20]
>> ZW: Yeah, I never thought ever, I would even work for a nonprofit, let alone start one. When my business partnership kind of blew up, I mean, I went from making about 110,000 a year, one-family income of seven. I mean, my wife and I have five kids, to go in zero all in one day.
[00:07:50]
So I had to get on EBT and SNAP and kind of go through all that process. And it was just the bubble popped, our bubble popped. And it was just Scary, and very difficult time. And there was just kind of a PSA one morning. My wife was on the computer, and there was a PSA around Lomax Farm, which is an incubator farm in Concord.
[00:08:18]
And it just stuck with me, and then it just kind of started something, and little smolder of a fire. And there was a lot of TED Talks going on in that early 2015 around food, and the issues we were having, and kinda how crazy our food system was.
[00:08:35]
And it just kinda got mad, and more mad, and cuz it was just all this talk and millions and millions of dollars around advocacy and litigation and lobbying, and in education. But there was nothing, there was no alternative systems really going in. And so, I'm always a business guy and it's just, are we gonna solve this problem through policy, or are we gonna go solve this by kinda working with our small farming community?
[00:09:09]
And so, I just went and found some farmers and started talking and started making commitments, I had no business making. And then I needed a vehicle to go do it. And that's kinda what happened and it's evolved a lot over the three and a half years that we've been around.
[00:09:27]
But other than my children, probably the proudest moment for me personally kind of getting this thing off the ground and the successes that we've had, and the challenges that we face. And it really looking at it from systematic change, and that's really hard. There's a lot of great organizations working really hard on very specific problems but they're band-aids.
[00:09:59]
But they're very much needed band-aids. But the approach that we're trying to take is foundational and systematic change.
>> QW: So how much of you being, I don't know, growing up in at least gardening or farming, how much of that influenced your jettisoning you into starting a farm trust?
[00:10:26]
How important was that experience of growing up like that, for you?
>> ZW: A lot, so kind of in the 90s is when the real estate boom was just uncontrollable and Loudoun County, the county that I grew up, is the most northern part of Virginia. It's kind of like the backwards L that kind of juts up into Maryland.
[00:10:49]
But Northern Virginia really consists of Loudoun, Fairfax, and Arlington and I was in three counties. And Loudoun was about 80% rural in the 80s, and then kinda getting into the 90s, it just flipped on a dime. And so, kind of seeing all the farmland just being gobbled up by local and national developers and turn into subdivisions.
[00:11:15]
In a decade, you've just completely transformed the whole county. And when you have developers handing farmers millions of dollars for their land. It's a no brainer from the farmer just because it's hard work, and hey, it doesn't happen every day. But when you look at it from kind of a food system perspective, and take a little bit more of a macro approach, so yeah.
[00:11:44]
How much can we really afford to this keep letting all this happen? So experiencing that land grabbed was, I mean my dad was a local builder, so kind of understanding all about it and that's kind of where, if you kind of start talking to farmers, especially cattle farmers or livestock, they wanna do it right, you need a lot of land for it.
[00:12:09]
And that was just kind of something that kind of just triggered and triggered and triggered, so the land is a piece of it, but it's only the first step. So there's a lot of conservation land trusts and stuff out there, and it was more for my approach of, let's get the land into the trust, and then make it accessible out there to the small farming community.
[00:12:31]
>> QW: So it sounds like what you witnessed in Virginia, maybe we're seeing that happen in Charlotte. And I'm also wondering, you mentioned the Lomax PSA. What did you mean by that?
>> ZW: That was just a public service announcement that Cabarrus County was defunding them. So it's just kind of a public service announcement around the issues they were having and some steps for fundraising to make sure they can still operate.
[00:13:10]
>> QW: So could you kinda describe what your early goals for the Farm Trust were and how they might have evolved over the years?
>> ZW: Yeah, I mean, the mission initially was to protect farmland and fostering an ecosystem of sustainable farming, and we've kind of added on to the end and to build the next generation of Carolina farmers.
[00:13:32]
So the average age of the farmer right now nationwide is around 60. And from the moment we began until now, it's very much how can we help our small to medium size farmers get the equipment they need, the infrastructure they need. And the resources that they need to be successful and more sustainable.
[00:13:59]
Understanding that the profitability side of the sustainability equation is the most important. So it's evolved to more of understanding of the bigger picture of the entire food system and maybe more where we need to play. Distribution is a big issue. Regulation is a big issue but it's not our mission to go try change regulations.
[00:14:29]
There are other organizations that do that and we wish them the best of luck to do it. Our job is to understand the environment around us and try to, especially with milk, dairy is a prime example of regulation just wanting to keep small farmers small. There's a very small network of farmers who,
[00:14:58]
>> ZW: Sorry, what do you mean? Go ahead. So regulation is a big issue. But it's not our job to go change it. So it's illegal to sell raw milk to humans in the state of North Carolina, cuz they say it's gonna hurt us or kill us. But when you go to a seafood restaurant and wanna eat oysters and get sick, it's on you.
[00:15:24]
But for milk, for whatever reason, and mainly just because of the amount of money that's in it. The milk, they don't want a lot of individual dairy farms being able to sell to public. So our role with that would be okay, how do we get a dairy farm pasteurization balance system to sell direct in public?
[00:15:48]
I said one thing, I really want to figure out how to do in the next year or two because the dairy industry is just being wiped out locally by global supply and driving milk prices down, and So, if we don't act and try to make sure that our local dairy farms survive, then we won't have them anymore.
[00:16:14]
And then kind of what does that look like, with our food system in general, are we comfortable here locally to rely on a feed system that's 3,000 miles plus long? And then backtracking your head on all the little things that can go wrong. And then what happens? And I think a big wake-up call for me was just when Katrina hit New Orleans.
[00:16:41]
One day, it's a functioning society, within 24 hours it was completely anarchy. With our food system now, every grocery store is about two to two and a half day turn from being fully stocked to being fully sold out. And then any emergency arises, that two and a half days turns into a couple of hours, what happens if the trucks stop coming?
[00:17:09]
Where do we eat? There's no answer to that. So really, what we're trying to do is create that answer. And not really trying to completely eradicate the current food system that we have but making sure that we have a regional one. That if we had to, we could rely on it, and does that infrastructure exist?
[00:17:32]
And as of today, it does not, but I think that's an ultimate goal of ours, over the next many decades to come to try to do.
>> QW: So you definitely want the Charlotte to be a self-sustaining city in the case that something happens and global food network is cut off or whatever but I mean, is that kind of what you’re getting at?
[00:17:57]
>> ZW: Yeah, Charlotte I think is a great leader, I think Charlotte could be a global leader in food sustainability. And we want Charlotte to be that leader but our reach is the region in North and South Carolina. So within the Carolina boarders, can we feed ourselves town by town, city by city?
[00:18:20]
That is the ultimate goal.
>> QW: Okay, that actually leads into one of my other questions is, it is called Carolina Farm Trust.
>> ZW: Right.
>> QW: And based on your website it is focused on both the Carolinas. Is a lot of your work spread out throughout the Carolinas or is it, at this point, primarily focused in the Charlotte region?
[00:18:41]
>> ZW: Primarily focus on the Charlotte region just because we're just so small and we're still kind of in a very neophyte phase. But we've done events in Winston and Reedsville and the triangle. So we're definitely trying to have as much impact as we can as we grow, but we have 20 acres under management right now and seven acres in East Charlotte, two acres is in Statesville.
[00:19:06]
And then we have 11 acres over on the Union County and Mecklenburg County border. But on the urban farm side, we are just taking the opportunities as they present themselves. Right now Charlotte, we're wanting to kind of create an urban farm network in Charlotte. But if someone said, I mean like the two acres in Statesville.
[00:19:28]
We got a call and said hey, we have this would you want to get under the lease? And the answer is yes, and will always be yes. So if we get something in Asheville tomorrow, we'll get it and we'll figure out something to do. But it's just really just taking the opportunities as they present themselves.
[00:19:45]
>> QW: And by get it, do you mean you have to go and purchase the land for, and keep a hold of it and until what do you do?
>> ZW: Well right now, all because we have our own release. The seven acres in East Charleston, the two acres in Statesville are both leased with other nonprofits.
[00:20:02]
So I'm confident those will be perpetual. The 11 acres in Union County is the private landowner. And we have a ten-year lease on it with an option to buy the first right of refusal. So our hope is to buy that before our lease term is up, that would be a big goal on that front.
[00:20:23]
But ideally, any way we can get it. If it's donated to us, fantastic. Once we're bigger and have more funding going out and strategically buying, it will be a focus. And then just turning in land that's not being used. And leasing that from either corporations, nonprofits, city, county, state governments, private individuals.
[00:20:53]
Whatever we can do to kind of get that land under control and into production. And the vision on land use, is if they're in urban areas, we want to make sure we're utilizing every ounce of social capital that we can. So those will be kind of underneath our umbrella.
[00:21:15]
On rural farm cases, we will lease those back right back out to another farm. Ideally, we would not want to get in the weeds on anything. But it would be irresponsible of us to lease a parcel in an urban area to a farmer. And then say by the way, you have to do all this social capital work.
[00:21:43]
And not doing a social capital work is not an option. So we hope to hire some farm managers that will manage that, and we will operate them kinda independently from the outside looking in but internally, we'll be there to support them in all their efforts. [BLANK AUDIO]
>> QW: So your organization is 501(c)(3), a nonprofit and you obviously are gonna need a lot of money to bring about a lot of these changes that you want to see.
[00:22:23]
How are you getting your funding and how do you hope to increase the funding over time?
>> ZW: Well, right now, corporately. Accenture's probably our biggest funder for the last two years. Micro Realty's been a pretty big funder. We've been courting a few corporations, and they're starting, $500 turned into $1,000, $1,000 turned into 5,000.
[00:22:49]
We have Carolina Jubilee and music festival we've been doing, going into our fifth year. Last year was the first year we've kind of broke even on that. We're hoping that will be a big fundraising arm for us, so it's a crowded nonprofit world out there. As with anything higher, affluent donors, all wanna see track record and see how you're, they don't wanna fund new nonprofits.
[00:23:21]
And so, it's been a big challenge on the funding side. That will to succeed and strive has to be very strong to kind of get through the early years. But we're starting to talk to some more folks and we're excited about the opportunities in 2019 and the potentials.
[00:23:48]
So long-term, we really wanna diversify and work with corporations 33% of the time, and generate our own revenue from an operation standpoint. Chronologically, I'm hoping to do that. We have a docuseries that we're working on called The Farmer That Feeds Us. That can be a very good money generator.
[00:24:11]
And also, proving to the rank-and-file population that we need to exist for their own self-interests. I think the more we can get the average person to do 5, 10, 25, $30 a month with us, that's I know, when we'll be able to do a lot of what we want, that engagement.
[00:24:40]
But we have to earn that. That's the critical piece, proving to the community, and then to the region, why we need to exist.
>> QW: So actually, you mentioning The Farmer That Feeds Us, that's where I wanna turn to next, because I actually saw it on Thursday, last Thursday.
[00:24:59]
>> ZW: Cool.
>> QW: So Ricky Hall came over and showed us the new videos. It was fantastic. So for anybody listening it is primarily about the food desert in West Charlotte, and gentrification in the area. And how that might impact urban farmers and even farmers in the areas around Charlotte.
[00:25:24]
But West Charlotte is predominantly black, and it has very high poverty rates. Now I was just wondering, as you are white and live in Cornelius,
>> QW: How did your interest in that project begin?
>> ZW: Well I did again, going back into the bubble. Basically there's in the terminology if you're kinda looking at public health and it's a crescent.
[00:25:58]
It's a crescent moon is what they kind of call it which starts in West End and then goes North Charlotte, and then kinda goes into East Charlotte. So it's that northern crescent moon of where a lot of the food insecurity, food access issues, crime, that's the crescent where, that is typically has a negative aura around it.
[00:26:24]
So I think it was 2016, I got roped into doing kind of this bus tour of West End. And shamefully, I'd never been there prior to. So going on ten years, and just passing it, and going on 77
>> ZW: And it was just a complete, I have this image in my head of what Charlotte was, and it was very much uptown kind of the lake area, South Charlotte, Valentine, Myers Park, South Park, and South End.
[00:26:58]
>> QW: So the super wealthy areas as well.
>> ZW: Pretty much, I mean, I knew South Boulevard. I lived off South Boulevard when I first moved here, but it was just night and day. But then it took another year and a half for me to kind of get the courage to engage, mainly cuz I was white, and
[00:27:25]
>> ZW: And the approach was important, and Randy Singleton was one of the first guys I met, and then he introduced me to Natania, and to Dr. Rowe, and Ricky. But it was mainly engaging by listening and not talking. And I think that was just the key of building some of those relationships.
[00:27:53]
Because as in the film, there's a common theme of white people coming into West End and saying well, you need to do it this way. And have this, we're gonna save whatever, that's not received well. So what we tried to do,
>> ZW: When I was kind of talking with Reggie, we have a dinner series that is predominantly used to kind of execute our mission as we're trying to grow.
[00:28:28]
We've done quite a few but I've never done one with a black farmer before and it was starting to weigh on me, that we haven't diversified on that. I had asked Reggie, does he know anyone? And, I was going to the Rosa Parks Farmers Market, I met Paul Bloomington.
[00:28:49]
And then kind of talking where do we wanna do the event and, we want to do it in West End, and then we found the Washburn Estates that Judge Fulton was graciously enough to let us use. So once all that, okay, we have to film it. [LAUGH] We can't not film.
[00:29:07]
Cuz there's just too much there. There was a lot of stories there once I started kind of meeting everyone. And so, we approached Ortho Carolina [INAUDIBLE] funded the first one and they came in and fund the second one, and John C Smith kicked in a little bit. And so everyone was just extremely nice and, again, it's just built up fear and perception, with all of us, that make us afraid to do things.
[00:29:43]
And I was that way for two years, cuz I just didn't know how I would be received. And it is nerve-wracking, it still is nerve-wracking, when we kinda show it, and. But it's made it more clear of making sure that you don't let fear prohibit you from engaging.
[00:30:08]
And there's a lot of ways to engage. And the one thing I would say is if you're wanting to engage with the community, and you don't know too much about, just shut up and listen. Just don't walk in and have all the solutions. And also it's not about someone coming in, and having solutions of bringing them.
[00:30:26]
It's more of getting to know a community, and understanding the initiatives that they're trying to move forward. And then offering assistance to help them meet their initiatives, and not try to create new ones, or alternative ones, or anything like that. That was just kind of a critical piece of the whole, on why it happened, and how it happened.
[00:30:53]
And very lucky of Ricky, and a lot of different players that were involved, that just treated me so graciously in the process.
>> QW: So actually Ricky also told us about The Three Sisters Market that they're planning. Are you working with them at all related to that?
>> ZW: No, not directly.
[00:31:18]
I mean, I hope that we can play a role, eventually maybe being a supplier. And we gave Ricky the docuseries, the episode in editable format and they can use that however they want in their fundraising efforts. I mean, I wish we were big enough where we could drive action a little bit harder around that, but we're not yet.
[00:31:47]
But as we grow as an organization, whether it's our project or not, it's irrelevant. We want to help,
>> ZW: I'm excited to see what he can make of it and if he can get it off the ground, I mean there's a few grocery stores in the triangle that are very successful.
[00:32:13]
I think the one in Winston or Greensboro just closed. I'm not, I can't remember if that actually happened or not. But Charlotte, but that's kind of the thing. The whole thing with all of these social and political problems, it's, do you have the will power to make the change on your own?
[00:32:35]
It's not about **** about the grocery store is not coming. Okay, if they don't wanna come, make them pay for it, that's my attitude. I think that's Ricky's attitude too. If you don't want to come, don't. We can figure it out on our own. It presents itself a whole other layer of challenges but we want to be more of an asset as we grow to help Ricky and organizations like West Boulevard Neighborhood Coalition on some of these projects.
[00:33:09]
>> QW: So I actually want to redirect a little bit back to the voices I heard in the documentary. I mean, in what ways are Black on farms in Charlotte, any different than the one like you grew up on or the ones that you've witnessed that are primarily run by white people?
[00:33:31]
>> ZW: I don't think any any difference, I'm not, I mean, Bernard Singleton is a black urban farmer. That was in the docuseries, and he's done a tremendous amount with different parcels in West End. He's actually the one that we leased out the 11 acres that we have over in Eden County, so it's him and I think Ben Case and Steve.
[00:33:57]
Marengo's an african herb that's very popular, it's a big cash crop in its tea and spices, a lot of medicinal purposes and Bernard is certified to grow it and there's just a market right now for it that you could never grow enough to meet the demand. Getting this 11 acres over there, they're putting 5 acres in Maringa.
[00:34:22]
And it's gonna be a, hopefully, a big asset to Bernard's growth, and Ben's seeds. And then an outlet to grow produce, to go back to West End in a bigger scale. So as far as the, I mean, Paul Brewington, with Brewington Farms in Concord. Is his farm any different than Rowan Road Farm in Gold Hill, with Joanie and Danny Rowan, who are both white?
[00:34:54]
Is there any difference to them, no. I mean, they're both awesome people, they both work harder than probably anyone we know. I think the challenges, that's the thing. Are the farms different, no, are the way are they able to sell different, maybe. That I don't know, I don't wanna assume anything or project anything that's in
[00:35:28]
>> ZW: But Paul Bernard's I think they're both successful, I would say. In my talks with, Paul kind of referenced back into the 70's and 80's, trying to take advantage of some government programs that were out there, and being extremely discriminated against on those, and he has a lot more closeness to that story than I do but today, it's my sincere hope that they're on the same level playing field.
[00:36:11]
>> QW: So, generally, I've gotten in these interviews, prior ones, just farmers talking about a lot of different challenges, primarily that relates to climate or trying to find a market to sell to or finding workers. Through your work, I mean you are aiding farms that are in need. What are the primary challenges that you're seeing?
[00:36:46]
>> ZW: Well, if you weren't born into a farming family or very wealthy. It's almost impossible to do it. I mean it's just so challenging. I mean in the infrastructure, the land cost equipment. All of that is so expensive, the margins are so thin, the work is so hard.
[00:37:17]
Mother Nature is your biggest business partner, which you have no control over. And from a farmer, you have to be a great farmer, you have to be a great business person, a marketer, organizational. I mean, there's a lot wrapped up into just, okay, I'm gonna go be a farmer.
[00:37:36]
>> QW: Mechanic.
>> ZW: Mechanic, being out in the middle of a field with limited resources and having to think outside the box to fix something that broke. Or I mean, all of it, the timing that everything, how much time everything takes. The lack of a workforce that's willing to go out and do that hard work.
[00:37:59]
The scalability challenges, the distribution side of the business, whether it's direct or wholesale.
>> ZW: All those are just huge challenges and barriers. A comment that always kinda gets brought up, especially in funding conversations, well then, why would anybody want to do it? And that's the surprising part. Is there are a lot of people that want to do it.
[00:38:35]
There's a lot of people that are doing it. Cuz it's something bigger than going into uptown and punching a clock and it's just a different life choice. So, the cool thing that I look at is, with all those negatives I just kind of talked about, there's still a part of the percentage of the population that is dedicated to go do it.
[00:39:08]
There is even more percent of the population that would be willing to do it if they had a little bit of help getting started. That's the role we wanna play as an organization.
>> QW: It's funny that you mentioned being asked, why do farmers wanna do what they do?
[00:39:25]
I actually interviewed Elizabeth Andover in Concorde, and I-
>> ZW: She's on our board.
>> QW: Yeah, yeah, I, I, she was saying a lot of the same thing you're saying and near the end of the interview, I just said, why you do this? And she says cuz it's fun.
[00:39:41]
>> ZW: Yeah, [LAUGH]
>> QW: And I think that's kind of the impression I'm getting from a lot of farmers in the area, who are, I mean she has a, her family has been in the area for a very long time but she kind of started her own thing.
>> ZW: Yeah, I mean there's a lot of And we're doing a dinner this Sunday, for Fair Share Farm in Bathtown, which is just near Winston-Salem.
[00:40:09]
Again, they're doing really well, 100% of their income comes from the farm. And we need hundreds more farms like that. So how does technology kinda play a role? How do we do more with less workers? How do hydroponics kinda play into it? How do we make it easier for consumers to buy direct?
[00:40:41]
Back to the farmer's markets, there's a lot of them popping up and there is a lot of neighborhoods that want them, there's just not a lot of farms to support them. There's not enough infrastructure, if your a farmer going into a farmer's market, that's your livelihood. You don't have time for that market to develop a base of people that come every week, it's either there or not there.
[00:41:14]
It's hard for farmers to continue to go to one where they're not seeing the revenue. And that's kind of why you have Davidson and Matthews in either account of being the stronger markets and some of the other ones that are cobblestone, not cobblestone but and even Rosa Parks.
[00:41:36]
There's these challenges because if the farm can't see the revenue almost immediately, it's almost a non starter. Even though they would love to help the food market to get up off the ground and all that. It's just when revenues are that tight, it's just hard.
>> QW: So with Charlotte being such a rapidly growing city.
[00:42:01]
I mean, you've touched on this already, farm land is being encroached on by suburbs of Charlotte very rapidly. And land is becoming prohibitively expensive for farmers to purchase. So I was just wondering, is urban farming kind of becoming the new thing? Is it becoming kind of necessary for a city like Charlotte to obtain this locally grown food?
[00:42:31]
>> ZW: Yeah, I think it's the future. We're kinda looking at Europe, and certain Detroit, Boston, the Northeast. We're a species of necessity. So why is Europe a lot farther along with us on food sustainability? Because they had to be, they don't have this luxury of just moving, sprawling as much as we want.
[00:42:58]
They took the ocean pretty quick. [LAUGH] And within their own borders, so it's kind of having to kind of rethink, okay, how are we gonna do this? The Netherlands are doing some really cool things over there. So on our side, the conglomerates are paving the way, mainly because of their trials and tribulations of the constant recalls
[00:43:33]
>> ZW: Lettuce, and greens, and avocados, and beef. And I think every week, we hear some sort of large recall of food. And then also, the misinformation of how they're growing it, the pesticides, all the antibiotics and drugs that's in our meats. It's getting to a point of, the whole system is getting stretched, and it's gonna collapse on itself eventually.
[00:44:08]
So how do you know for a fact what you're eating? Gotta go meet the guy who's growing it or the woman who's growing it. And Charlotte is just very lucky in my opinion, that we do have a strong population density, but we still have a tremendous amount of greenspace within the city limits and even within Mecklenburg County.
[00:44:31]
So we want to utilize Charlotte as a leader of okay, well how do we build a certain farm network? Is it feasible to say, okay we're gonna feed 1% of the population within the city from a produce perspective. Then how can we get that to five or ten.
[00:44:48]
And also again, we're asking people to make a behavioral change. And that is the hardest thing to do, and how do we build this relationship back to food. We've gotta bring it to them. You're not gonna get the rank and file population out to just understand rural farms, and how important they are.
[00:45:06]
You're just not gonna be able to do that. So it's different mediums of the farm that feeds us. It's [INAUDIBLE] Jubilee, and it's working with corporations and green teams and families and schools. Where they don't have to drive a half hour, 45 minutes. They can drive 5 to 10 minutes and go, okay, this is cool.
[00:45:26]
And once you get someone on this local buying pattern, a potato is monumentally different in taste if you get it from Barbie Farms, per se, than at the grocery store. Now Barbie Farms- at the grocery store you might buy two cuts for 2$. But it's also what you're supporting too, and part of the job that we have is to put a face to all of this.
[00:46:10]
There will be a part of the population where it's, I don't care, just give me the cheapest eggs you got, it's a commodity. And the hard part of treating a very big piece of survival as a commodity.
>> ZW: It gets devalued, over time. And especially if you look at a animal as a commodity,
[00:46:42]
>> ZW: It doesn't work out, it'll end up being kind of what it is. What it is now. So it's building this relationship back to food. It's bringing this taste. We just had some celery over the weekend like holy crap. It's just unreal, the difference. Most of the nutrient in industrial ag is about half of what it used to be in the 20s and 30s.
[00:47:12]
And I think it'd be even more than that. Just because of all the artificial inputs with the soil being just continuing to be taxed on all of it. And it's, am I gonna go to the grocery store and spend $5 on a dozen eggs? No I'm not. But I won't think twice about doing it when I'm making that transaction to a farm that I know I'm supporting them and their family in this overall system that I know we, as a community, need.
[00:47:52]
It´s not a luxury, it´s a need. That's kind of where, I mean, it's also trying to think kind of where we are in the market, and how many people just don't know. As a society, we have given away the responsibility to feed ourselves. We just gave it away.
[00:48:18]
And what we're hoping to do is show every individual that we'll have to take the responsibility that. That does not necessarily that everyone has to have their own garden and stuff like that. But it's also to show them that they need their food supply chain as close to their front door as humanly possible.
[00:48:43]
>> QW: So you mentioned Carolina Jubilee, which that was one of your first big ventures with non-profit. Can you kind of describe what that was? I mean, with everything that you just said, the importance of making people, maybe in the urban Charlotte environment realize the importance of local food.
[00:49:04]
How did the Jubilee achieve that, do you think?
>> ZW: Well, it hasn't achieved anything yet, really.
>> QW: Okay.
>> ZW: We were still, it was an investment over time. I knew it would be. But again, it's a kind of going back to that behavioral change and we need to get the masses engaged.
[00:49:23]
And we had to do it. And there needed to be a very subtle way to do that. And we needed to, I mean, I get asked all the time what's our demographic. Well, if you have a pulse, you are our demographic. So we're trying to build the Carolina Farm Trust how it's gonna operate 100 years from now.
[00:49:45]
And so Carolina Jubilee, by design, is kind of this social contract with the region. It's a music festival, it's camping. It's in a northern Iredell County, which is an extremely heavy agricultural community. And we needed something that we could get people to come to. Music, camping, hey, I like all that, let's have fun.
[00:50:08]
And then, by the way, you have to be from the Carolinas to be a vendor. You have to be on mission to be a vendor. Music, we go outside the region. But everything else, from beer, wine, distilleries, chefs, if you go, you're gonna be trying something from a Carolina farm by default.
[00:50:31]
So it's making it normal. There's not a little corner of it, it's the whole thing. So we've been growing that and we wanna utilize that as we grow and we show more. And again, kind of proving to the community that we're worth of existing. That is an event we can do in the masses to showcase that.
[00:50:53]
And our goal year over year is to get more people to come and support that and support us and have a good time doing it. But also being very comfortable that it's not elitist, or judging, or preaching. You won't find any of that there. The messaging is just very subtle.
[00:51:17]
And as we grow, if we're asked, yes, but we don't wanna preach about it. We want it to kind of be on its own and let people approach it at the speed that they want.
>> QW: So actually, I just have a couple more questions and then we're done.
[00:51:40]
But kinda see, I mean, even talking about how local urban farming, what it can do for people in urban centers like Charlotte. But what do you think Charlotteans could do to help local farmers, beyond just buying the goods that they're selling?
>> ZW: Well, buying from the local farms is the biggest thing they can do.
[00:52:06]
And go to farm-to-table events, go out and volunteer on the farms, and talk to their neighbors and support kind of the movement. But where you spend your dollar every day is the biggest impact you're going to have, plain and simple.
>> QW: And are there any other questions that I should've asked or is there anything you would have liked to talk about that I didn't ask about?
[00:52:40]
>> ZW: I guess from your classmates in your generation,
>> ZW: How do you feel like you're different?
>> QW: [LAUGH]
>> ZW: Kind of going into this, and obviously, you're taking the class. And what's your interest level in food systems? And what role, I guess, do you see yourself going forward, kind of like career paths and stuff like that.
[00:53:10]
>> QW: So not necessarily, I can't necessarily speak for my classmates, but I went to university in Boone, North Carolina, I went to Appalachian State. And there's a huge emphasis on local food there. A lot of restaurants there purchase from local producers. They make their food from them. I mean, there's a new store or a new market.
[00:53:43]
I can't remember what his name is, but he used to sell on the back of a truck, just the produce from local farms. He'd go around, gather it, and then sell it. Now what he does is he has a store right on basically Boone's main street. It's right there, right in front of everybody, and people can just go purchase food there.
[00:54:03]
Now in Boone, I felt very connected to the local food. I moved to Charlotte, not so much, and I was kind of disappointed about it. What this class has done, though, has made me realize that I was just missing the local food movement here in Charlotte. I'm not sure how I was missing it.
[00:54:21]
Part of it, I think is just Charlotte is so big. And it wasn't as noticeable for me, living in the North Charlotte area around the university. I feel like if you really wanna get more involved in local food, you need to go down towards like NoDa or some of the wealthier areas, actually, which is kind of an issue I can see.
[00:54:47]
But beyond that, I mean, what this project has done to help me is it makes me wanna purchase from local farmers instead of going to the Harris Teeter that's just down the road. And I think once I get a better paying job or whatever, that's what I'm gonna start doing.
[00:55:08]
Now for the purpose of this project, I mean, we're gonna be publishing all the oral histories online. Now for oral history, this is new. Somebody 50 years in the future can look back at these interviews and be like, here's what Charlotte was at this point. And then 50 years in the future this person can say, okay, what has changed?
[00:55:34]
Has West Charlotte, is it no longer a food desert? How significant is urban farming in the Charlotte area, stuff like that. It's more just a place to put these interviews up as a repository for people to look at in the future, but also currently. I mean, these are gonna be on a website that will be published at the end of the semester.
[00:56:03]
And the public will have free access to listen to what farmers and producers and people like you are going to be able to talk about. So that's kind of where I see this. And my interest in local food started in Boone, didn't stop in Charlotte, and it's not gonna stop anytime soon.
[00:56:22]
And I'm sure the same sort of thing is happening with my colleagues, so yeah.
>> ZW: Yeah, I hope to come back to this in ten years and see what progress you've made.
>> QW: [LAUGH] Yeah, hopefully it'll look a lot different.
>> ZW: I hope so, too.
>> QW: So this concluded my interview with Zach Wyatt.
[00:56:43]
And I just wanna thank you so much for your time.
>> ZW: Thank you.
>> QW: All right.
[tabby title='Captioned Audio'] [tabbyending]Bethel Feed and Farm - Anson Eaves
Bethel Feed & Farm, LLC, located off North Carolina Highway 24/27 in Midland, North Carolina, has been owned and operated by the Eaves family since 1957. Anson Eaves, the current owner/operator of the feed mill, is the third generation of the Eaves family to be involved in this business. The mill produces and sells livestock feeds, fertilizer, and crop seeds.
Anson Eugene Eaves (Owner/Operator, Bethel Feed & Farm, LLC) was born on May 9, 1970, in Charlotte, North Carolina. He grew up helping his grandfather (Gordon Eaves), father (Gene Eaves), and uncle (Jimmy Eaves) at the mill, which was previously known as Bethel Milling Company. Anson is the sole full-time employee of Bethel Feed & Farm, which he has owned and operated since 2011. Anson’s family has been involved in the local farming community for several generations. He earned B.A. degrees in history and political science, with a minor in biology, from Warren Wilson College, in Swannanoa, North Carolina.
| Time | Description |
| 0:00:07 | Introduction |
| 0:00:37 | Anson Eaves (“Anson”) introduces himself and describes the daily operations of Bethel Feed & Farm (“BF&F”) |
| 0:01:35 | The process of feed milling, including the sourcing of raw grains and ingredients from local farmers and customized feed mixing for different animals and customers |
| 0:04:45 | The different animal feeds produced by BF&F |
| 0:05:50 | The different grains BF&F uses and the network of local farmers Anson has developed to produce the grains used |
| 0:08:20 | The ingredients and mixing process for sweet feed |
| 0:09:20 | Other types of feed, including their ingredients and distinguishing characteristics |
| 0:10:30 | How the use of animal proteins in feeds led to the spread of mad cow disease, prompting implementation of additional regulatory measures for feed mills |
| 0:11:08 | BF&F’s customer base, primarily horse training and boarding barns and "backyard" hobbyists raising goats and chickens |
| 0:12:00 | The local rise of goats as cash crops |
| 0:12:50 | The differences between small-scale feed mills and the larger institutional operations that service Perdue and Tyson contract farmers |
| 0:14:30 | Anson discusses his role as advisor for local farmers like Connor Newman and Kim Schoch of Hodges Family Farms (also participants in this oral history project) in their experimentation with different crops and fertilizers |
| 0:16:17 | Differences between large-scale "row cropper" farmers, hobbyists, and people that just "keep" livestock, including the different services, products, and markets BF&F provides for them |
| 0:18:15 | Changes in farming and feed milling since the 1950s |
| 0:20:40 | The history of BF&F, including the first two generations of owner/operators: Gordon Eaves (Anson's grandfather) and Gene and Jimmy Eaves (Anson's father and uncle, respectively) |
| 0:23:38 | The development of customized feeds based on trial-and-error experimentation and customer feedback |
| 0:25:15 | General rules and philosophies for creating feeds to maximize livestock potential |
| 0:26:38 | Teaching and mentoring agricultural hobbyists, especially those getting inaccurate or inapplicable information from the Internet |
| 0:27:48 | Anson describes growing up and getting involved with the mill, and his relationships with his customers and suppliers |
| 0:30:30 | The mill as a social center for the local community, including as a gathering place for local farmers; interesting story about the mill being a place for women to find eligible mates |
| 0:32:54 | Historical changes in BF&F and the overall milling industry, including the impact of increased regulatory environment and the transition from state to federal regulation due to the Food Safety Modernization Act ("FSMA") |
| 0:36:38 | Issues with the FSMA, including cost/resources required for compliance, inspections and audits, and potential adverse impacts on the continued viability of small farms and feed mill operators |
| 0:44:23 | Discussion of the impact and cost of the organic farming, farm-to-fork, and non-GMO (generically modified organism) movements on BF&F and the feed milling industry |
| 0:50:55 | Discussion of milling processes and equipment |
| 0:53:20 | Maintenance of aging milling equipment |
| 0:55:00 | Ongoing challenges facing continued operations of BF&F |
| 0:55:55 | A typical day at BF&F |
| 0:59:30 | Historical changes in agriculture in Cabarrus County, including as to the size of operations and the role of farming in local family lives |
| 1:02:42 | The health and evolution of farming and the food shed in the local community; issues and questions to be resolved going forward; future farming opportunities for the region |
| 1:09:00 | The milling of grains for human consumption |
| 1:10:35 | Misperceptions and pre-conceived notions concerning milling and farming |
| 1:13:41 | Concerns about the ongoing status and availability of land for agriculture |
| 1:17:50 | End |
[00:00:07]
>> Tommy Warlick: All right, so this is Tommy Warlick, I am with the UNC Charlotte History Department and I am working on the Queens Garden Oral History Project, oral history to the Piedmont Food Shed. It is March 28, 2019, about 1:00 PM in the afternoon, and I am sitting here with Anson A-N-S-O-N Eaves, E-A-V-E-S with the Bethel Milling Company in Midland, North Carolina.
[00:00:33]
Anson, thank you so much for your time, we really appreciate you sitting down with us today.
>> Anson Eaves: All right, glad to be here, Tommy.
>> Tommy Warlick: If you don't mind, can I get you to introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about your background?
>> Anson Eaves: Okay, I'm Anson Eaves, I run, now it's changed from Bethel Milling to Bethel Feed Farm.
[00:00:52]
Bethel Milling was the company that my parents, my dad and uncle ran, my grandfather. When I came in, accounting-wise, it was easier for me to start out as Bethel Feed & Farm. What we tend to do here is, I buy grain, I buy grain from local farmers, turn it into livestock feed, horses, cows, lots of chicken feed, some swine feed.
[00:01:21]
I also move quite a bit of lawn seed fertilizers, some dog feed, some other things.
>> Tommy Warlick: So Anson, I don't think a lot of people who are gonna be listening to this really understand what a milling company is and what feed milling is. Can you give us a background of what that entails?
[00:01:44]
>> Anson Eaves: Sure, farmers bring in grain, I buy the grain straight off the trucks, I end up buying it by the bushel. So I would make a contract with a farmer and basically it's a handshake contract that I'm interested in 10,000 bushels of oats from them. We would agree upon a price, I'd say $4 a bushel, they would bring the grain in here.
[00:02:09]
I store it in bins and then I pull from it, run the grain through elevators into the mill, I process it with, I'm using a roller mill now. Then I would mix the oats with various other grains, corn barley, running it through basically big blenders. Then the final process of making the horse feed part would be that I add molasses to it, tumble it all together with molasses.
[00:02:42]
Bag it up in 50 pound bags and distribute it to individual horse barns and such. The same thing works with chicken feed, the process is basically the same, except the ingredients in the chicken feed will be different. Instead of using oats, and barley you use more corn, and wheat, and milo for something like chicken feed, the same thing goes for hog feed.
[00:03:08]
There's also some speciality feeds such as some sheep feed, some calf feed, which I would end up making a higher protein. But I end up buying, especially something like oats, oats are a seasonal crop, farmers don't tend to store those year round. So whatever oats I need to buy for the year, I basically end up buying in the months of July and August, on oats.
[00:03:36]
Farmers are more likely to be able to have storage on the farm for corn or wheat. So the corn is more readily accessible to me 12 months out of the year. I still end up filing bins up but I don't have to buy a year's supply one time on the like oats and barley.
[00:03:56]
I basically have to buy everything I need for the year when it's available because otherwise I would end up going through brokers, not so much the local farmers. The main crops you see grown in Cabarrus County, Stanly, Mecklenburg County, you see a lot of corn, you see wheat, you see soybeans, and you see cotton.
[00:04:19]
The reason that those crops are so prevalent is because there is a steady year round market for them. There are other crops like the oats and barley that I need that's not really a year round market. They can't move them, there's a limited market so there's a limited supply then, so I have to move quickly to secure that stuff.
[00:04:45]
>> Tommy Warlick: All right, so it sounds like from that description, you're pretty much making food for all kinds of livestock.
>> Anson Eaves: I do, I do. The largest market I have are horses and horse barns but I have more customers feeding things like chickens and goats than horses. However, one barn may be feeding 60 to 70 horses, that's a ton, a ton and a half of horse feed that goes to one customer a week.
[00:05:22]
Where 50 to 100 pounds of chicken feed lasts the average backyard guy for the week. So you could move more bulk in horse feed to the same amount of people.
>> Tommy Warlick: I'm gonna pause this for just one quick second.
>> Anson Eaves: Sure.
>> Tommy Warlick: Okay so we're back on, I apologize for that, Anson, my batteries were dying quicker than I thought they were.
[00:05:49]
>> Anson Eaves: Sure.
>> Tommy Warlick: You mentioned a whole lot of different types of wheat and barely and the whole nine yards that you use, like corn, what do you use most often?
>> Anson Eaves: Corn and oats are the largest two things that I buy. Barley and wheat I basically just use in chicken feed and so it's very limited, where I might go through a couple hundred bushels of barley or wheat or milo during the course of the year.
[00:06:19]
Several thousand bushels of barley, but wheat and barlow will be in the couple hundred of bushels. Oats and corn, we're dealing with 15 to 20,000 bushels each for those products.
>> Tommy Warlick: And are all that bought locally or do you bring any in from outside here?
>> Anson Eaves: Most of the grain I do is grown within 20-30 miles of here.
[00:06:45]
Occasionally, if they've had a bad crop, I have to go farther. I have access to some brokers that I can deal with going to South Carolina, the upper part of Georgia, especially on oats. There's plenty of corn grown locally for my use, but once again, the oats become a scarce product.
[00:07:10]
A lot of the people would not be even growing oats if I was not their market for it. They know that they can sell me oats, therefore they're willing to grow oats. Corn has a very established price, it's traded, you can find the price of corn anyday, anywhere in the state.
[00:07:37]
On oats, I suppose I end up working closer with the farmers, we do a handshake agreement on pricing. And it has to be a situation that I can make money on but they also have to make money on. If at times you could buy oats much cheaper than what I pay but if I chose to do that then nobody would grow oats the next year for me.
[00:08:06]
And so I could save a couple dollars one year, but then the next year, it would mean that I was having to transport oats out of South Carolina or something like that. And it would end up costing me in the long run.
>> Tommy Warlick: So when you make an individual feed for a particular animal or whatever, what are your ingredients?
[00:08:26]
Are you using just one grain? Are you adding some nutrients to that?
>> Anson Eaves: Most of the time, say on a horse feed, on a typical sweet feed, it is basically two parts oats, two parts corn, not quite one part barley. I'm adding salt and a mineral mixture. I'm also blending molasses.
[00:08:52]
I buy molasses by the tractor trailer load. I buy tanker loads of molasses in here. The molasses actually usually ship out of Baltimore, Maryland. The molasses makes the feed more palatable. It shines the feed up, but it also makes the horses, cows, whatever, they gravitate towards it more.
[00:09:18]
>> Tommy Warlick: And you mentioned sweet feed, is the molasses sweet feed?
>> Anson Eaves: Sweet feed is what qualifies it. Molasses is what qualifies it as sweet feed.
>> Tommy Warlick: So what other kinds of feeds are there? I'm not familiar with that.
>> Anson Eaves: There's scratch grains, scratch grains are just kind of a mixed grain, which will be a cracked corn, wheat, and milo.
[00:09:35]
It's a very basic chicken food, very basic kinda maintenance chicken feed. There's laying pellets and crumbles, which become a higher-protein feed, which encourage the laying of eggs in chickens. Hog feed is also a higher protein feed. Some whole feeds, and I do not do this now, years ago, my dad, uncle, grandfather made their own supplement to make hog feed where they would grind corn, they would grind wheat, milo.
[00:10:12]
The supplement was made out of alfalfa meal, bone meal, or a blood meal, really. Hogs need the animal protein. If you have hogs shut up, and they don't have a certain type of protein, they tend to do things like tail biting and ear biting. They're looking for the blood off the other pigs to supplement the protein.
[00:10:38]
When we had problems with the Mad Cow Disease 15, 20 years ago, the regulations became different on using animal proteins, so we ended up stopping. We don't use any animal proteins at all anymore. The regulations became different and kind of became prohibitive as to doing that. So while I do sell some hog feed, I sell some pre-packaged hog feed and I sell some just straight dry grain mixtures for hogs.
[00:11:13]
>> Tommy Warlick: So who are your customers?
>> Anson Eaves: Most of my customers, the largest customers I have are training and boarding type horse barns. They bring horses in, they board horses for other people, they train horses. Some barns where they have lessons, and each of these barns can have between 20 to 60 some horses there.
[00:11:38]
As far as the chicken feed, most of the customers that I'm dealing with are people that have chickens in their backyard. They're keeping a flock of a dozen to 50 chickens. They enjoy having the chickens there. It's a hobby, maybe a self-supporting hobby. Sometimes they do sell eggs.
[00:12:01]
But there seems to be a lot of people with chickens around. I also deal with people raising goats. Goats have turned into a new cash crop around here. There's a legitimate market for goat meat, for goats on the hoof. There's a sale in Monroe now every other week that does nothing but sell goats.
[00:12:25]
The Hispanic population, the Middle Eastern population has really caused a boom in the goat market. Goats have gone from a $35 animal that was just basically a pet, a hobby, into an actual money making crop now. You can run through the sale at Monroe now and bring easily $4 a pound on the hoof.
[00:12:52]
People will raise them if they can make money out of it. I see a lot of, especially the out the door customers, it is people with a few animals behind their house. Whether it's chickens, goats, one or two pigs, the people raising chickens on a large-scale production are usually doing it for a big grower such as Tyson or Perdue.
[00:13:21]
Something like that. Those companies supply their own scientific ration to the farmers raising the chickens for them. They're not going to come here. They don't come here and buy the feed. The feed is delivered to them through much larger milling operations that are run by the chicken company, by Cuddy, by Tyson, by Perdue.
[00:13:49]
So I end up seeing a lot of hobby farmers. Yes, some of them do make money at it, but they do it more for enjoyment, more for the pleasure put of it, than actual income raised. Now, the biggest horse customers I have are professionals. That is their source of income is running large-scale barns.
[00:14:18]
I also deal with a lot of people with two horses in their backyard, but they're not in it for the money. They just enjoy the horses.
>> Tommy Warlick: I met with Connor Newman and Kim Hodges at Hodges Family Farm a couple of weeks ago. And they were going on and on about what a valuable go-to resource you are and how helpful you've been to them over the years.
[00:14:41]
How do you interact with the local farming community? What's your role and what do you do with local folks?
>> Anson Eaves: Well with Conner and Kim, it's been different. I've watched them trying to hold on to the family farm, which is really inside the Charlotte city limits. They have a rare bird.
[00:14:58]
From their interviews, I'm sure you understand it was a dairy farm. They're trying to figure out a way to make the farm pay. They're trying to figure out a way to keep from selling the farm. Through that, what I have been able to do for them, or what I have tried to do for them is as they've been going through the trial phases, Connor or Kim will call me for some advice about raising livestock, for some advice about fertilizers for cover crops.
[00:15:35]
I've been able to bring them in some specialty seeds for cover crops, such as some vetches, such as some yellow clover. Connor became interested in bees, I was able to find him some bursa clover. As they've been trying to figure it out with the experimentation that they've been doing, I hope I've been able to help them.
[00:15:58]
We've worked together to figure out what kind of fertilizers work best for what crops, what kind of cover crops work best for their. Specific needs. It's been fun to be able to work with them, lots of questions, lot's of questions and it's been fun for me, too, because even when I haven't known the answers, it's helped me to take the time to go look for the answers for that.
[00:16:25]
A lot of other farmers, as far as the people farming, when I say farmers, I typically use the word farmer to mean road croppers. That means somebody farming on a semi-large scale, it means somebody farming the corn, beans, cotton type situation. When I say, we've always kept cows.
[00:16:53]
We've always had cows. We never described ourselves as farmers. That was never a word we used, even though there's tractors there. Even though there's land and production. The cow, we just kept cows, we did, there was no identification as a farmer, the farmer, the word farmer was used to refer to basically row cropping with large type tractors and.
[00:17:19]
What I end up doing for, what I feel like I do for them is supply a market for certain products. Corn is movable anywhere, there's a dozen places within 100 miles of here that will buy corn at the drop of a hat or buying corn every day. I do give the farmers a chance to, as applies a chance to move barley.
[00:17:46]
Barley becomes something this hard to move. I have made arrangement with farmers to grow barley, otherwise, they wouldn't have a market for it. Also, in the last couple of years, I've become an outlook for some other straw. The straw becomes the byproducts of wheat or barley crop. I can offer them a retail outlet for that, I can pick up, some of the farmers at want grow small fields and Milo is a place to move it.
[00:18:19]
We don't, when the mill was started in the 50's, the farming was different. The mill was different. In the 50's, the farmers typically were much, they ended up farming much smaller tracts of land. And everybody had a public job. 90% of the people had a public job. They farmed after they got off work.
[00:18:43]
They had 30 cows or they had 20 couple acres of corn plant to feed their own livestock. Well, at that point in time, the farms weren't big enough to justify storage to justify their own storage or their own milling equipment or something. So, we ended up, granddaddy, this is way before my time.
[00:19:04]
Granddaddy stored grain for farmers. As they harvested their 20 acres of corn or their 40 acres of corn, they brought it here. We stored it in the bins that were here. Then through the course of the year, as they got ready, as they needed a ton of cow feed, we pulled out their savings account here, it was, you kept a record of how much corn they brought in.
[00:19:32]
You kept the record of how much corn they had taken out, at that time, and then you added whatever other grains you needed to add to make an appropriate ration.
>> Anson Eaves: And you ground and process the feed for them. So you made your money by actually processing their own grain.
[00:19:54]
Today, I buy the grain, all the grain I'm running is grain that's already purchased. It's not owned by the farmer at that point, it becomes and that's a big change over the years. Now the farmers that are row cropping, they are big enough. They have their own storage.
[00:20:14]
They have their own on-farm storage. Some of them have their own on-farm processing facilities, where they are able to grind their own dairy feed, they're able to grind their own hog feed, and that's a major change. So, even though there's probably fewer people participating in it, the tracts of land and the money involved in it are exponentially bigger than they were 60 years ago.
[00:20:43]
>> Tommy Warlick: So, you mentioned your grandfather started Baffle.
>> Anson Eaves: He actually did not start it.
>> Tommy Warlick: Okay.
>> Anson Eaves: Two other brothers started it. Granddaddy bought one of them out really before the mill was opened. Another man bought the other brother out and then granddaddy bought him out. So he became the sole owner probably in the late '50's early '60's.
[00:21:07]
>> Tommy Warlick: So the mill started early '50s?
>> Anson Eaves: In '57.
>> Tommy Warlick: '57-
>> Anson Eaves: '57 is when it was put up.
>> Tommy Warlick: And your grandfather's name was?
>> Anson Eaves: Gordon Eaves.
>> Tommy Warlick: Gordon Eaves, okay, and so Gordon's two brothers were the first-
>> Anson Eaves: No, not his brothers, just two local guys.
[00:21:25]
>> Tommy Warlick: Two local guys, okay-
>> Anson Eaves: Yes, and the mill is actually, this was actually family land a very long time ago. But when my grandfather's parents passed, the brothers and sisters and granddaddy sold the land off. And then over the years, we've bought certain tracks of it back.
[00:21:47]
>> Tommy Warlick: How did your grandfather learn about milling and doing this type of an operation.
>> Anson Eaves: Granddaddy was a salesman. Granddaddy enjoyed, Granddaddy enjoyed selling as much as he enjoyed anything else. He was a good salesman, but that was, I considered that that was probably his favorite part of it and probably also his strength in it.
[00:22:11]
He enjoyed calling on people, he enjoyed pushing the product that he made. He thrived on that.
>> Tommy Warlick: Was the mill his full time job or was he?
>> Anson Eaves: Yes, it did become his full time job. It was his full time job. My grandmother was a teacher that also supplied them a steady source of income as he was trying.
[00:22:35]
No matter what decisions he made around here. My dad and uncle, there was going to be food on the table. And it gave him the ability to take some risk to make some moves that he probably would not have been able to do, had it been the family's only source of income.
[00:22:54]
>> Tommy Warlick: And I know your dad was in banking for a while.
>> Anson Eaves: Dad was in banking until 1976 or 77 and then he came back to the mill. My uncle, Uncle Jimmy, I think started working back at the mill in 66. I think he had one other job after high school.
[00:23:16]
They had both grown up here, they lived right across the road from the mill. When school was out, if granddaddy saw them coming home, they got roped into coming over here and working. So both of them stepped away for moments, but both of them came back, and since say 76, both of them have been doing, have been running the mill full-time.
[00:23:39]
>> Tommy Warlick: Has there been any educational process in trying to learn how to do milling or is it just been trial and error-
>> Anson Eaves: It's been trial and error experimentation. Once again, even today with myself, I ask customers questions everyday. As what do you want the feed to look like?
[00:24:03]
What do you need the feed to do? Am I missing something? If we need to increase the protein in this, let me know. Does the horse feed have enough molasses on it for you? So I end up searching for a lot feedback to make the product that these people are looking for.
[00:24:27]
And certain customers, I value certain customer's opinions highly. They're the ones that see it, they're the ones that see the results of what they're doing. They know whether I'm doing things right or not. And if they tell me I'm doing things wrong, then I need to make the changes that they're expressing to me.
[00:24:48]
>> Tommy Warlick: So it's almost a custom feed per customer.
>> Anson Eaves: Some of the feed is definitely custom. I do have a lot of customers that request that I will make a thousand pounds of feed for at 16% to 18% protein with, I have half a dozen, 10 customers that I have recipes individually tailored for them.
[00:25:13]
>> Tommy Warlick: Are there specific rules of farm or important go-bys for you when you're coming up with a particular feed for what a customer wants for their animal or?
>> Anson Eaves: There are Tommy, there are, I believe, certain things. I believe some of them may be not scientific but they seem like they've worked.
[00:25:38]
Feeding a calf out, feeding a calf out for slaughter, if someone's got one up in a barn, I believe the best thing you could feed it is straight cracked corn with some salt and maybe some molasses in it. When you go farther than that, if you start adding barley to it.
[00:25:59]
The corn seems like the, makes yellow fat on cows, and that's what tastes good. So that but no, I want certain feeds to run certain proteins. The horse feed I make is going to run about 10.5% protein. I've found that that's a very nice number. That that's a very nice place to be.
[00:26:25]
That it keeps the horses acting right. Some people believe that they need more protein than that. I think you start causing problems. That's my personal opinion but everybody has their own.
>> Tommy Warlick: And with this hobby farmers that you work with, do you find yourselves teaching mode or a mentoring mode like you're doing with the guys over.
[00:26:46]
>> Anson Eaves: You do, you do find yourself, you do find yourself, okay, I got chickens. I just went and bought 20 chickens. What do they eat? So, people willing to take a chance, well, if you feed the scratch, this is what's going to happen. If you combine that with laying pellets or laying crumbles, then this is what's going to happen.
[00:27:10]
People do come in with questions. Some of them, I try to be nice to everybody. I try to take everybody but you get some people asking some very wrong questions. And the computer has changed that a lot because there are a lot of answers on the computer now that we didn't have access before.
[00:27:35]
So, a lot of people can spend 45 minutes Googling how to feed a horse and all of a sudden, they know everything there is to know about a horse. And the information is worth what you paid for it.
>> Tommy Warlick: [LAUGH] All right, I hear you. That's great. Now, when did you get involved?
[00:27:55]
>> Anson Eaves: I worked here basically on and off my whole life. If I wasn't in school at times, even in elementary school, I like to come down here and spend time. And that time, yes, you would sweep the floor but we would play a lot, too. My cousin, Uncle Jimmy's son Jay and I would play down here.
[00:28:16]
There was always something interesting going on. There were old men standing around the wood stove that were, mom says this is where I learned to curse. I'm sure I learned some things that I shouldn't have learned around here, but I enjoy spending time here. But even then, grandaddy, you would sweep the floor or you would go with my dad or uncle to deliver feed.
[00:28:39]
Even though you couldn't carry the bags, you could drag them to the back of the truck. So I had my hands in it, I worked here full time for several years after college. It had been probably 10 years since I had worked here full time when my dad and uncle decided to retire.
[00:28:59]
They decided to retire in 2011 and they offered me the option of coming back in and taking over, and I did. So I've been here, it has been my business since 2011. It worked well because I had already established relationships with a lot of the farmers. They knew who I was.
[00:29:23]
Most of the customers knew who I was. That was definitely an asset. Since then, I've had to, we've had to figure out if we deal well with with each other, and it's worked very well. And I can see not only did I continue, was I able to continue relationships with the customers or suppliers, but I have formed new ones also.
[00:29:53]
And you can see the [SOUND] demographics changing. You can see some of the customers coming in, you can see 20 year olds coming in, looking for, they have got their first chickens or are interested in raising their first cow. That's, I'm perhaps more tolerant of that then maybe my dad and uncle were.
[00:30:15]
That they expected someone with a cow to know how to feed a cow. I maybe don't have the same expectations anymore.
>> Tommy Warlick: So, you mentioned about everybody sort of congregating here. I've heard from your sister, Carla, a lot about the mill, this seems to be a real community center here, particularly for the local agricultural and the little farmers and all.
[00:30:37]
What role would you see the mill playing in the local community?
>> Anson Eaves: There are, even today, a certain number of retired men that come around. That once again, you see there's always a wood fire. A lot of times, there's a wood fire, there's usually a free sun-drop around.
[00:30:58]
So people have asked me, volunteered, let me bring a couch down here, let me bring my couch down here, let me bring my recliner. No, you can't have it too comfortable. If you make it too comfortable, it doesn't work. You don't need a coffee pot
>> Anson Eaves: I have a lot of work to do here.
[00:31:17]
You don't have time to lean against the stove, and you don't have time to lean against the stove all the time. It becomes a very pleasant experience but there's also work that has to be done. You do, I can tell you, I can name every player in the 1962 county basketball championship game between Harrisburg and Bethel because I've heard that story a lot of times.
[00:31:48]
I can tell you Bethel's baseball teams from 60 to 62 and who pitched what game. And that's, I consider that a great gift. I consider that a lot of fun to be One of the coolest stories, when I came in, shortly after I came in and an older lady pulled up here, and she spoke to me, she was from town and looking for something and she said, are you married?
[00:32:17]
And yes ma'am, I sure am. I can't believe your wife let's you hang around a feed mill. Now, why would that be an issue? She said, doesn't she know what kind of women come around a feed mill?
>> Tommy Warlick: [LAUGH]
>> Anson Eaves: And it was such a story from, such a story from another time because when she had been a young lady, the feed mill was where you went to go find a man.
[00:32:44]
It probably doesn't work that way any more. I can't say that that was my experience but it's a story that I filed away.
>> Tommy Warlick: [LAUGH] So other than a dating pool, how has the feed mill changed over time? You say you see your customers change. How are things sort of evolved as you've been involved with the business?
[00:33:02]
>> Anson Eaves: Since I've been involved in the business, one of the major changes, and this is one of the major changes is our regulatory agency has traditionally been the North Carolina Department of Agriculture. In 2011, the USDA took over. The Food Safety Act went into effect, so instead of being regulated by a state agency, now it's changing over into a federal agency.
[00:33:32]
The regulations are going, I have a new stack of 700 pages of regulations. That is going to be a major change. With the state, I could basically call anyone in the state and get some kind of answers. On this, you can't. And it's the old story of small business and big government once again.
[00:33:59]
You also see that this business is located on a four-lane highway. 20 years ago, it was located on a 2-lane road. That's changed, what we have coming by is not local traffic now, it's commuter traffic. And people also tend, I would say people because it's a female, people don't necessarily know what a female does.
[00:34:32]
When they think about buying feed. If they're thinking about buying chicken feed. If they're thinking about buying a bag of fertilizer. They tend to look to Lowe's, to Home Depot, to Walmart, to Tractor Supply, and then to a degree, a place like Southern States. Which are very retail-type outlets.
[00:34:54]
We've always supplied fertilizer to farmers. At times, lots and lots of fertilizer. That's is the major change in the market now. Even people that are coming in, regular customers, I didn't know you sold fertilizer. It sounds funny to me to say that because we've always moved fertilizer. And traditionally, 40 years ago, this is where everybody would have come to buy fertilizer, that's no longer the case.
[00:35:27]
I also see more. I also see more outlets for some products like shelled corn, there's more farmers selling shelled corn straight off the farm than there were 20 years ago. It becomes a value added product to them. They're able to sell a bag of corn to someone feeding their chickens or someone baiting deer off the farm, that they make an extra $2 off that same bushel of corn.
[00:36:07]
It's hard to begrudge that. But 20 years ago, this was basically one of the only outlets for a product like that. Now there's a lot more.
>> Tommy Warlick: So, I was gonna ask you about the Federal Food Safety Modernization Act. [LAUGH] And I'm looking over here at this notebook you've got.
[00:36:32]
>> Anson Eaves: That's it, that whole stack. That whole stack of paper.
>> Tommy Warlick: It looks like it weighs about 10 pounds. So, how is it impacting you? I mean are you in the process of getting up to speed or what does that entail for you?
>> Anson Eaves: That is, the worst part about it is everything in there, basically everything, those whole 700 pages at this point, are all recommendations.
[00:36:56]
They say the farm guidelines are established but they have not really established farm guideslines. It's gonna be a matter of they're gonna come in and look at structures, equipment you're using, batch samples, a much more stringent regulation. A much more stringent set of regulations. Before, the state would come in.
[00:37:28]
They would sample feed. They would test for. As I tag feed, the protein is. As I tag, not custom feed, but labeled feed. I'm required to have a label on them with the protein, with the fat content, etc. The state, once a year, will come in and take a sample of that to make sure that I was meeting my labeling requirements.
[00:37:51]
If something was labeled 9% protein, they wanted to see the 9% protein. The state also tended to check for mycotoxins, which were things like alpha toxin and stuff like that. To make sure that you're putting a safe product out there. What I see from the federal government and this becomes cynical is the way the regulations read, they don't believe your intention is to put a safe product.
[00:38:21]
They want to regulate, they want to regulate the whole manufacturing process.
>> Anson Eaves: Because they don't believe you're capable of doing it yourself.
>> Tommy Warlick: So based on what you've read so far and what you know so far about these regulations, what's the additional burden gonna be on you, as far as man hours, expense, all that kind of stuff?
[00:38:49]
>> Anson Eaves: Last and this was not federal, this was this was still the end of a state thing. But last summer, I ended up having an audit, there's there's a tax. There's a tax on horse feed, it goes to the North Carolina horse count. So I pay, it used to be $5 a ton.
[00:39:06]
It's moved to $10 a ton. I keep up with it pay, so basically, from a nickel a bag to a dollar bag. I keep up with that. I keep up with what I pay. I pay the state quarterly. Each ton of horse feed that I send out there.
[00:39:21]
Last summer, I ended up being audited over the last three years and had to account for every bag of horse feed I had sold for three years. So, I ended up with, I think it was 37 pages of audit that I had to account for the day and the customer that had received these feeds.
[00:39:44]
So, it took me two days going back through ticket books and calendars. It took my wife an extra day or so at work to compile everything. So, just on something like that, there's 24 man hours involved in that. This is a one person operation. You don't have 24 man hours to do these things.
[00:40:08]
When you become, if you're the size mill of the Purinas, and Nutrinas, and you have compliance officers in place. And you have everything computerized, then these regulations become much more easy to comply with. If you can pull people off and have a paint job put on everything, to clean everything up, that's not what I do, that's not the scale that I'm able to work on.
[00:40:41]
It is going to become prohibitive, and at this point, I'm still not sure how prohibitive. Since these regulations have come out, I've seen two or three, at least three other people that were doing some milling. Especially on some farm, just some farm-side operations but they were selling some feed on the side.
[00:41:08]
I've seen very few people pull their door shut, it does not make sense for them to try to comply with this. They're gonna be closed down anyway, so they've gone ahead and pulled the door shut, and these were just kind of sideline type operations, we'll see how it applies here.
[00:41:28]
And it's still hard to get a firm answer as to exactly what kind of compliance issues I will have but there will be some. And it becomes a matter of how much money am I willing to spend to comply? Does it make sense to continue doing this? If they say, all your elevators have to be replaced because they are not in compliance, it basically doesn't make sense to continue operations.
[00:42:01]
if I was going to invest, a certain point, a certain kind of money, it probably would not be in a feed mill. As long as I can run it, as long as I can continue running it, yes, it does work. But if I have to make a 20-year capital investment, then no, it makes no sense to try to continue the operation.
[00:42:24]
>> Tommy Warlick: Are there any types of exemptions or breaks for smaller operations like yours-
>> Anson Eaves: Yes and no, the smallest operation, there became a two-year exemption, we're in that window now.
>> Anson Eaves: The maximum sales operation for that was a company doing $2.5 million a year, so that is still out of scale for me.
[00:42:59]
But at this point they are not showing any exemptions for very, very small operations. They're dealing with $100 million a year companies, and $20 million a year companies, a $2.5 million a year companies, and that's who the regulations were written for. There are still other mills this size out there in this scale and the regulations were not written to apply to this kind of scale operation.
[00:43:35]
If they end up having to apply, then there will be a problem for me.
>> Tommy Warlick: And you said, they, so this is gonna be like USDA?
>> Anson Eaves: This is USDA, at this point, the state is perhaps gonna continue contract work for the USDA. The inspectors that I used to deal with will contract out to the USDA.
[00:44:00]
The North Carolina Department of Agriculture may handle this with the guidance or help of federal inspectors.
>> Tommy Warlick: Okay. So changing gears on you, I know there's been a lot of talk about organic farming, about farm to fork and all of this type of stuff. I'm sure with regard to animal food products, that's impacted what your customers are interested in and what they want from you.
[00:44:29]
What changes have you seen caused by those things?
>> Anson Eaves: One of the biggest things that I can see is I have more customers curious and interested in non-GMO products. People are much more cognizant of what they are feeding their livestock. You do see people, if they want 20 chickens in their backyard, they become their pets.
[00:45:01]
They have heard the catchphrases, non-GMO, they've heard the catch phrases, organic, free range, grass fed, most of them are not. A lot of them, even though they're aware of the phrase, they're not necessarily aware of what it means and what it entails.
>> Tommy Warlick: So just for purposes of the folks listening, what does it mean?
[00:45:27]
>> Anson Eaves: Non GMO means non genetically modified ingredients, so most of the corn grown now, most of the soybeans grown now are maybe classified as Roundup-ready. So they splice the gene into this plant that gives you the ability to use a chemical like Roundup on your fields. That becomes a weed control, so you're able to plant soybeans.
[00:45:56]
Glycol phosphate is the actual pesticide or the actual herbicide we're talking about when I say Roundup. So before if you had non-Roundup-ready beans, if you sprayed Roundup on it, you would have killed the whole field. Now you're able to spray Roundup, and that helps control weeds such as pigweed, such as cocklebur, such as sicklepod, some of the other noxious weeds that get into your field.
[00:46:30]
By doing that, it makes your fields clean, it makes your beans cleaner at harvest. The downside of that is a genetically-modified product and I think we're still trying to see what the repercussions of the genetically modified products are. But people are aware that it is something to pay attention, to to be afraid of.
[00:46:54]
I have people asking those questions a lot, one of the stories that I tell is, a guy came in here feeding his chickens, I want non GMO feed. My question, why do you want non GMO feed? Because I don't want my chickens eating GMO. I understand, what's your issue with GMO products?
[00:47:20]
He said, there's a man in Mexico that's buying all our seed and he's going to keep us from having food. I said, I don't understand this, what are you talking about? I'm not going to support that man that's buying all our seeds, he's gonna starve us. I said, that man that's buying all our seeds up?
[00:47:42]
And I thought a little bit and I said, are you talking about Monsanto?
>> Tommy Warlick: [LAUGH]
>> Anson Eaves: And it was months, so even though he is aware that there's an issue and it's something to pay attention to, he didn't know why he's paying attention. His logic is, I also see, it's funny to me.
[00:48:05]
Sink them with chicken feed. A lady will come in eating a double whopper and smoking a Marlboro light, but she wants non-GMO feed for her chickens. And it becomes a question of where are our lives? But I think it's a great thing that people are paying more attention to it, are more aware of it, are more cognizant of the possible impacts that are taking place with it.
[00:48:41]
And there's no doubt there's more awareness of that now than there was ten years ago.
>> Tommy Warlick: Has that caused any changes for you though, I mean, are you having to change your recipe?
>> Anson Eaves: To a certain degree, to a certain degree. There's a lady that I make non-GMO feed for her horses, even though she's never going to eat the horse, she prefers the feed made with that.
[00:49:10]
I am lucky in that oats and barley are not typically GMO products. I can leave the corn out, and produce her a feed that she's satisfied with [SOUND] and that works. You do see it, some of the grains that I am using, like myloaf, wheat, are non-GMO, oats, barley are non-GMO.
[00:49:38]
The corn, I cannot guarantee it is. I know where it's produced, I know who produces it, but it probably is a modified product. I can see the difference on the feed that I resell. It's feed that I buy from a larger mill and resell. They avoid the non-GMO phrase, but locally produced whole grain, they're using it in their advertising campaigns also.
[00:50:18]
>> Anson Eaves: And even though in my situation, perhaps there's a preference for non-GMO products, if they're not willing to pay the price, if I can't pay the farmer a premium on it, then I can't buy the grain. If they're not willing to pay the price for the finished, a premium for the finished product, then I can't supply the farmer with a premium.
[00:50:43]
So the farmer, the row cropper, the guy growing the corn has to make the decision as to where his yield is highest and where his profit margin will be highest.
>> Tommy Warlick: Okay, okay, now you mentioned early on that you're using a roller mill method.
>> Anson Eaves: Yes.
>> Tommy Warlick: What type of equipment is involved with what you do on a daily basis?
[00:51:03]
>> Anson Eaves: Here, I'm probably running, I've counted before and close to 40 motors. Anywhere from 5 horsepower to 50 horsepower electric motors. All the bins have unloading augers in them, unloading motors. I put the grain in the vent in the bins, either through an auger, which lifts the grain up and drops it into the bin.
[00:51:31]
It comes out of the bin much the same way. There's an auger that pulls it out of the bin. I run it from there to an elevator into a crimper, the roller mill, which has two sets of corrugated steel rollers in it which actually crush the grain, either crack the hull on the grain, crush the grain, depending on how I set the rollers, depending on how fine of a finished product I have.
[00:52:02]
The grain then runs through a cleaner, which screens the grain. It removes the fines, it removes the chaff. Even though the grain's been cracked, it produces a cleaner grain from there. Then I end up running the grain back into the mill into a mixer. The mixer simply tough makes the various grains together from there into another elevator.
[00:52:30]
And then I run it through either a blender, which I used to spray molasses on it, or I avoid the blender and then I run it through an automated bagger which weighs out 50 pound bags. And then I either put them on the truck or I bring them out here for sale.
[00:52:52]
So lots of motors, lots of augers, lots of conveyors, lots of things to get your hands caught in if you're not careful. The base is grain handling. It just becomes a material handling process. With grain, like a lot of other material handlings is, you lift it up high enough and make it fall where you want it to fall.
[00:53:15]
That becomes the secret to it, is if you lift it up high enough, you can direct it wherever you want it.
>> Tommy Warlick: And you're pretty much the only one doing all this?
>> Anson Eaves: Yes, yes.
>> Tommy Warlick: Wow, Anson, that's a lot to do.
>> Anson Eaves: It becomes a lot, and if everything works smoothly, it's very manageable.
[00:53:32]
It's manageable. When a piece of machinery breaks down, I don't have a lot of redundancy here. When a piece of machinery breaks down, there's a lot of bolt turning also. And because the machinery, a lot of it is 1980, 1960 vintage, it breaks down a lot, and there's really not a lot of people that really want to go climb up a 60-foot elevator and work on it.
[00:54:02]
So you tend to take on the mechanicing yourself.
>> Tommy Warlick: That's what I was gonna ask. Are you doing a lot of the repair work yourself?
>> Anson Eaves: Yes, I do 99% of the repair work myself, I carry a lot of wrenches around.
>> Tommy Warlick: [LAUGH] So has there been a lot of technology changes that have impacted how you're doing what you're doing, or-
[00:54:24]
>> Anson Eaves: There have been a lot of technology changes in the milling business, but not at this location. I'm running it very much the same way it was run in 1970. I'm running all the machines, my granddad could come in here and recognize every piece of machinery and tell you what it does.
[00:54:49]
Now he might not know where the switch was, but he would know what it was supposed to accomplish. Okay, are there any issues or types of problems that are unique to feed milling that are challenges for your that are becoming challenges for you that maybe haven't been in the past?
[00:55:07]
>> Tommy Warlick: Once again, the regulations will be the major one. The regulation changes are perhaps one of the major ones. Like I said, you do see a different type competition now. You see a different type competition now. You also see a changing demographic, in that this community is not rural-based anymore.
[00:55:33]
It's so people don't understand exactly what a feed mill is and,
>> Tommy Warlick: Yeah, there become a lot of challenges. Once again, probably the biggest one for me is equipment wearing out, as just entropy takes over, entropy takes over. I'm sorta hesitant to ask this, but is there a typical day around here?
[00:56:00]
What's a typical day like? It doesn't sound like there is one. No, but an example of a day would be I'll come in 8:00 o'clock cold weather, I'll build a fire. I'll hang out with the dog. I'll drink a Sundrop. Get my eyes, get started. See what is on the desk.
[00:56:19]
Then I will start making feed. And a lot of times that involves picking up a shovel and moving some grain around in the bin so that you can get to it.
>> Tommy Warlick: Most of the time, usually every day I have at least one customer's barn that I have to go deliver to, which means putting a couple tons of feed on the truck, driving either 10 miles or 75 miles, getting the feed off the truck.
[00:56:52]
I'll come back and start making more feed. In the meantime, as you're doing these things, you're also waiting on out-the-door customers. You're also answering the phone for orders.
>> Tommy Warlick: And so you end up making and delivering a lot of feed. By making the feed means that I'm rolling grain in buggies to the places I need it to process.
[00:57:16]
Then as the feed's being bagged I'm picking the bags up and stacking them on pallets to be sold here or rolling them back into the mill until I can get a truck loaded. It's a lot of physical labor. I'll pick up 250 pound bags every day of the week.
[00:57:42]
I will move basically five tons of feed around, and you feel like you wear the bags out sometimes. You handle them, you stack them, you roll them, you pick them back up you put them on a truck, you get them off the truck. But every day you're moving 50 pound bags over and over and over.
[00:58:03]
That's probably a good rule of thumb, if nothing goes wrong, if nothing breaks, if you don't have to go pick up fertilizer, if you don't have shipments of grain coming in. And that's kind of how the days go. You get,
>> Tommy Warlick: When they're hauling grain you have to do deal with the unloading of the trucks, setting everything up to unload the truck.
[00:58:33]
You have to deal with the farmer to whatever degree, whether it's paying him, figuring the payment, and that becomes an added part of the day. That ends up taking another hour or so out of your day. If you're lucky you have a little bit of time to go walk out to the garden.
[00:58:56]
If you're lucky, maybe, no, you really don't ever get the eat lunch. I'm here, it's a nine hour day. I really don't stop for lunch. I drink a Sundrop or something like that and usually keep going, and then at 5:00 o'clock my nanny will drop the kid off here and then I start the second part of the day.
[00:59:22]
>> Anson Eaves: So let me take a step back, you and your family have been involved in farming, or have at least touched on it for a long time, here in Cabberus County.
>> Tommy Warlick: Right.
>> Anson Eaves: What changes have you seen over that time period?
>> Tommy Warlick: One of the bigger ones that we talked about a little bit earlier is even into the 70s, when I was a kid, so many of the people farmed.
[00:59:48]
Everybody had larger tracts of land. There were not as many half acre lots. There was no such thing, very few things as a half acre lot. People were farming but they went to work at canning mills. They went to work for the school system. They went to work for the state.
[01:00:07]
When they got off work, they came home and they had 50 acres of land or 100 acres of land that they tended to. And they might have had a farrowing house with hogs in it as a sideline. They might have had a group of cows as a sideline.
[01:00:26]
They might have had 40 acres of corn as a sideline, and it supplemented their income.
>> Tommy Warlick: They didn't treat the farming as their full-time profession. There were some full time farmers, but for the most part farming was what you did after work. And now I believe it's become more specialized that to, sure people do have jobs and then they have some cows at home.
[01:00:59]
People do have some chickens at home. But to farm now here, because of the price of equipment, because of the price of land, you have to be invested in it. You have to have a 1,000 acres to row crop, to make row cropping a viable option. Well a 1,000 acres becomes your job.
[01:01:22]
But to afford a 500,000 combine you better be running it. You can't have 20 acres of corn and buy a $500,000 combine. You can't afford that kind of equipment. So I do see people, and even some of the farmers that I consider bigger farmers, especially in our area, are running other businesses or running fairly decent-sized businesses.
[01:01:54]
And farming is not another, not a supplement to their income, but it is another business entirely that perhaps dovetails in with what their other business is. You see a lot of farmers with grading companies. That's the typical one. I can name three or four people that run large scale grading operations but farm fairly large scale besides that, but they're not actually out there running bulldozers anymore.
[01:02:28]
They're paying employees to do this. They're just managing the companies.
>> Anson Eaves: So if you had to take a step back and look at the whole farming area in the greater Charlotte/Piedmont area and all that kind of stuff, where do you think it lands? How do you think the health of the whole food shed and all the agriculture and livestock around here is?
[01:02:54]
>> Tommy Warlick: Not sure, there will be an answer, but I'm not sure. What I do see is that I see a lot of younger kids,
>> Tommy Warlick: Kim and Connor are great examples, but smaller scale than that. I see some people, okay, well I've inherited 25 acres from my grandfather or my parents.
[01:03:16]
We've always had cows here, I'd like to keep cows here. I think that that will continue. I see perhaps more people coming out looking for five acre tracks that they can have a garden on. Moving out of the urban areas because they want some chickens. They'd like to have a couple of chickens, or they'd like to have their own garden.
[01:03:41]
I think that that's doing very well. One of the big curiosities I have is over the next ten years what cash crops are going to become available for these people. Once again, coming out here and, even myself, if I wanted to farm, if I wanted to call myself a farmer today, And use the family lands.
[01:04:06]
I'm going to take over the family land. Usually we've had a cow calf operation going, but I'm going to farm it. I don't believe that I could afford to become a farmer today. Even though I might meet the threshold on available land, I will be blessed by that, but I don't believe that I would feel comfortable going out and taking on, starting with none of the equipment, I don't believe I would be able to take that on.
[01:04:38]
Questions that I answer for a lot of people is, we have family land, what do I do with it, how do I make this pay, how do I make this a viable option to hold onto? You get a lot of questions about, well, what do you think about farming truffles, what do you think about farming pistachios, what do you think about, and they're all good questions, and I think that the answer lies in those questions is what can pay the taxes on your 20 acres or your 50 acres?
[01:05:13]
It's not going to be corn, it's not going to be soybeans, it's not gonna be cotton, but is the answer, okay, the answer for everybody is not gonna be goats, but maybe the answer for two people is going to be goats. The other people are gonna have to come up with their own solutions, and it could be strawberries, it could be tomatoes.
[01:05:37]
I see more farmers markets coming up. I think that's neat. Once again, that's not my definition of the traditional definition of farmer, but yeah, you can probably grow five acres of tomatoes and turn a profit on it, if you're willing to get out there and hoe them.
>> Tommy Warlick: I'm looking for where the next market is, because farming is market driven.
[01:06:08]
If there is an outlet, people will grow it, if there's not an outlet, there's no point in growing it, and I think that becomes one of the big, I'm not sure where it's gonna be. If you go farm to tables, I see a kid down in Oakborough that five to ten years came in here wanted to get into the hog business, and he was wanting to grow a hog that tasted good, and he's been relatively successful at it, and he's marketing.
[01:06:44]
He has a store front. He's also marketing a lot online. And it seems like he's figured out his niche as to how to make this go. There's gonna be some other niches that show up. I had a kid, super bright kid, that had a proprietary way to grow edible mushrooms.
[01:07:11]
Was super impressed with what he was doing, he should have been able to make it work, and he had some of it. He had the restaurants in Charlotte willing to, but the market was not enough for him to support that enterprise, and also bad partnerships played into that.
[01:07:33]
So we'll see what people come up with, but I do believe a lot of people are asking the same questions. It seems like I'm answering the same questions to a lot of people. It's not backyard chickens. Backyard chickens are going to be a hobby, and yes, they might be a self-supporting hobby, but I think as people look farther down the line as to what markets are coming, what markets are going to exist, there are going to be some opportunities.
[01:08:14]
The micro breweries have popped up everywhere in Charlotte. That means there's a market for hops. That means there's going to be a market for malted barley. Who's going to step up to the plate on that? It's probably not gonna be the guys who had traditionally farmed 1,000 acres of land.
[01:08:38]
They're not going to venture into, they're not gonna get off of their tractors to do that, but there's some 25-year-old college grads that can take their 20-acre inheritance into a viable operation, and I think that that's going to be fun. I think that's gonna be fun to see.
[01:08:58]
>> Anson Eaves: I didn't ask you before, but the milling that you're doing here it's all self-animal feed, right, there's no flour, anything like that?
>> Tommy Warlick: No, no, no, no. I have a gristmill over here in the corner. It's a traditional gristmill, to grind cornmeal at one point. At one point, my grandfather, my dad, and uncle did grind some cornmeal for people.
[01:09:25]
I wouldn't be able to do that now, once again, because of health regulations. I'd like to set, this is a mill that didn't come from here, a man came in here wanting to sell his grandfather's gristmill from the mountains, I ended up with it because its a neat the piece of history.
[01:09:48]
I would love to have it set up behind the barn, independent of this operation, and a weekend or two out of the year, yeah it would be great to grind some cornmeal for a buddy or two, just to see it run, to keep it so that my kids can see what it actually looks like to grind cornmeal and eat cornmeal.
[01:10:13]
>> Anson Eaves: And I know I've already gotten your grandfather's name, your uncle's Jimmy. What was your father's name?
>> Tommy Warlick: My dad is Edward, but he goes by Gene. He goes by Gene.
>> Anson Eaves: So I know I've taken up a lot of time here. I got two more questions for you then I'll leave you be.
[01:10:30]
So you mentioned earlier that there are a lot of misperceptions that people have. They don't quite understand, not just farming in general, but feed mill, and the whole nine yards. What are some of the big misperceptions that you've seen folks have, or just not understand what's going on?
[01:10:47]
>> Tommy Warlick: I'll try not to be cynical about this.
>> Anson Eaves: [LAUGH]
>> Tommy Warlick: This is an easy one because you do get to deal with some, I had a girl come in here, what should I feed my horse? I suggested the sweet feed, she didn't wanna do that, and I put her horse on straight oats, which makes a very good feed.
[01:11:10]
For a month she came in here, my horse looks better than it's ever looked. I can't believe the changes that have been made. It's wonderful. I felt good, then she came in here, and she's like, I shouldn't be feeding my horse oats. Why not? Well, I saw on the computer that so and so said that wasn't the right feed.
[01:11:33]
What do you think, I said, no, no its your horse what do you think? And when I asked her what she thought, she got a very blank look on her face, because she was unable to think for herself. And I tried to, you're looking at your horse, you know more about your horse than anybody else.
[01:11:55]
If you think you're doing the right then you probably are. Don't worry about somebody in Minnesota in a chat You have to make your own decisions and that becomes a hard one, that becomes a hard one. I see it, I see some things that I disagree with. I disagree with people's opinions but maybe their opinions are not wrong.
[01:12:24]
People asking questions about fertilizer, well it's not, I was told I need a 12-4-8, well do you know why you need a 12-4-8 fertilizer? Well no, but that's what I want. I can sell you a triple 17 for a third of the price you're gonna pay. No, no, it's a 12-4.
[01:12:47]
And people come in with a lot of ideas that they, people come in with a lot of pre-conceived notions. The easiest ones to deal with are the ones that will listen, the ones that, and not that I'm always right, that's not the case. I like to learn also.
[01:13:08]
yBut sometimes the way that Your grandfather did things there was a reason for. Maybe your granddaddy didn't know what he was doing, you know? And so maybe, maybe let's let's look at that. Let's look at the traditional way of doing it and maybe there was some answers there.
[01:13:25]
Maybe there's some improvements we can make, but maybe they're worse, the answers.
>> Anson Eaves: I've jumped around a lot, I've gone all over the place. Is there anything that I've left out? Is there anything that we should have covered that you think is important that we need to address?
[01:13:45]
>> Tommy Warlick: I would, no, but to put, the one of my concerns,
>> Anson Eaves: Is this the safety 6450?
>> Tommy Warlick: Yeah, one of my concerns is, not necessarily status of the farm, but this status of land in general, the availability of land. What is going to happen to the land?
[01:14:26]
Okay, as the big tracks disappear and they are going to disappear and they are disappearing. Even with good intentions, if your grandfather owned 100 acres and it got split between three siblings and then between their three siblings, it's no longer a big tract.
>> Tommy Warlick: The questions we're asking about what's gonna happen to farming really become null and void if there's no place to do it.
[01:14:58]
Once again, I have a lot of people that are concerned that are interested that I have access to this or this is a traditional family farm. How am I gonna be able to maintain it? What can I do to keep the taxes paid? The taxes become prohibited as to just owning land.
[01:15:24]
Land in the 1960s, 1950 became a way to generate wealth. Now land maybe is wealth. Your great grandfather bought land because by adding more land to it, he had more timber to cut, he had room for more cows to graze. He had room for more corn. It was a wealth generator.
[01:15:54]
Today, money becomes tied up in land. If 100 acre tract's worth $20,000 an acre, there's a $2 million investment.
>> Tommy Warlick: Can I afford to have $2 million tied up in this, or do I have to liquidate it? And I really think that the key to all the farming in general is going to be what does happen with the land?
[01:16:27]
If you don't have the dirt, you can't grow it. Even if you want chickens in a garden, if your HOA prohibits it, you can't have chickens in your back yard. So people are looking for the five acre tracts. I get that but at the same time, it takes more than five acres to raise cows on.
[01:16:53]
It takes more than five acres to raise corn. I think that that's probably the biggest question that we don't have the answer to. If the major tracks of land are there and you can make it viable to grow stuff on it, then it will stay viable. If they become so expensive that it's prohibitive to grow stuff on, then it's not gonna be grown there.
[01:17:24]
>> Anson Eaves: Well Anson, I really appreciate your time, I don't think I did a good job early on of introducing Highway 34.
>> Tommy Warlick: Right [LAUGH].
>> Anson Eaves: [LAUGH] Being here, and I forgot the dog's name.
>> Tommy Warlick: Huxley.
>> Anson Eaves: Huxley, so Huxley thanks for having us out today, we appreciate it buddy.
[01:17:38]
But I really appreciate your time, I really appreciate your insights. Is there anything that we didn't cover that you think-
>> Tommy Warlick: I think we hit most of the high points. I'm sure there's always more, there's always more to talk about but I think we hit a lot of the hot ones.
[01:17:54]
>> Anson Eaves: Sounds good. I'm gonna turn thing off and
Muddy Springs Farm - Jeff Stevens
Farming has been in the family for several generations, and Jeff Stevens grew up around farming. He became the owner-operator of the Muddy Springs Farm in Lincoln County in the 2000s raising beef on the same land that belonged to some of his extended family. The interview consists of Jeff’s personal accounts about farming, how he entered it, and how he manages to run a full-time farm while also working a full-time job with Duke Energy. Jeff speaks about using brewery grains with regular feed for his cattle, in-common land ownership, and the various issues that his, and other small, family-owned farms, face in the current market. Jeff’s wife, Emily, also talks about her role on the farm.
| Time | Subject |
| 0:00:30 | Introdution to Muddy Springs Farm |
| 0:01:00 | In-common and renting acreage |
| 0:04:00 | Raising steers and Wytheville, VA |
| 0:05:50 | Marketing and problems with Farmers' Markets |
| 0:07:20 | Working for Duke at the McGuire Power Station |
| 0:08:20 | An average day |
| 0:09:24 | Family and influences |
| 0:10:25 | Weather and caring for the animals |
| 0:12:10 | Costs and other expenses |
| 0:15:39 | Pause |
| 0:15:40 | Challenges of farming |
| 0:18:20 | Education, learning, and networking |
| 0:20:00 | Organizations and government assistance |
| 0:22:00 | Endangered farms and youth |
| 0:24:33 | Organic farming and using brewery grains |
| 0:26:40 | The support of older farmers |
| 0:27:25 | Pause |
| 0:27:40 | Watching the sideways tornado |
| 0:29:05 | Surprises with steer prices |
| 0:31:15 | Wytheville as a cattle hub |
| 0:33:35 | Future plans and the younger generations |
| 0:38:30 | Additional thoughts about farming |
| 0:40:35 | Farmers' wives and family |
| 0:44:45 | The demands of time |
| 0:46:50 | Popular mentality and final comments |
| 0:50:17 | End of interview |
[00:00:01]
>> Okay, so we are now recording. It is Sunday, March 10th, 2019. Can you state your name, for the record?
>> Jeff Stevens.
>> Okay, and Jeff according to this questionnaire, you live off of Highway 73, in the Lincolnton.
>> Yes.
>> Okay, all right, and this would be then Lincoln County?
[00:00:27]
>> Lincoln County, Iron Station's the city.
>> Okay, is there an actual name for your firm, or is it just-
>> Muddy Springs Farm.
>> Money Springs Farm?
>> Muddy Springs.
>> Muddy Springs, okay. Muddy Springs and you have owned it for roughly 15 years or is that what you had?
[00:00:52]
>> No, it's been, yeah, I guess, it's been about 15 years.
>> Okay, for the record, Jeff's wife Emily is here as well. And it's okay [LAUGH].
All right Muddy Springs farm. Now, you've said this farm was originally part of the Perkins farm, is that correct?
>> Yes.
[00:01:20]
>> Okay, I used to Perkins farm still around or-
>> Yes, they have 60 acres on the right side. And also where their churches on the left.
>> Okay.
>> Used to be got by Perkins land, he give that to the church.
>> Okay.
>> It was got Perkins on don't know where it is I'm not sure the acreage, and one of his daughters married Buzz Real, and he gave Buzz, I think this time it was 20 acres of land.
[00:01:52]
And this right here. But the brick house was included with that area in between, so it made it roughly 20 acres. And then, when Buzz passed away, Carol his daughter, got it. Who married my Papa's brother. Okay, so they had it for several years. And he mainly grew produce on it.
[00:02:17]
And then, my papa and his brother Bud, who owned this land, did an uncommon swap because they owned 50 acres together up on Hill Road. So, Carol swapped Papa cuz Bud had already passed away. So Carol swapped Papa his 50 acres, the uncommon piece for the 15 acres here and then he gave it to me.
[00:02:43]
When I come out of the military in 2005.
>> Okay. I'm not familiar with in common. Can you?
>> Well, when somebody owns land in common, so say you own 50 acres and there's two people owns it. There's no survey marks, it's just owned in common. So, it's not like he owns this piece, you own this piece.
[00:03:08]
You own it together, the whole thing.
>> Okay, all right. So, it says here looking at your records, you actually own 15 acres, but you also ran an additional 80.
>> Yes.
>> Okay.
>> So I have hay fields down Camp Creek Road onto Furnace Road which is right down here on the right.
[00:03:35]
And then Furnace Road is on the end of Camp Creek. You take a right and I have fields on there. And then I have another, the working farm that always own by Noya Grover which has 27 half 14 cows and it's roughly 20 some acres.
>> Okay, what's your main.
[00:04:05]
I guess product for lack of a better word.
>> The main source of income for the farm is, steers that we raise. We either buy them from the sale, or we buy them from a dairy, and bottle feed them, and then raise them out. And we take them to Whitfield, Virginia and sell them there.
[00:04:22]
This year it'll be April first, is when I have 14, roughly eight to 900 pound steers, that are gonna whitful.
>> Okay, do you usually keep about that many in a cycle?
>> Yeah, it varies but would like to increase, but usually around that number, and that's a yearly sale, so I usually turn them over about a year.
[00:04:52]
>> Okay, and the hay that you were referring to, is that really the only agricultural?
>> Yeah, well I grow produce also and sell eggs, but the hay is probably second in the source of income. So ourselves, a lot of it and I keep to feed my accounts.
[00:05:13]
>> Okay, and
>> Do round bales and support those.
>> What kinda produce.
>> We sell green onions. We've sold corn, watermelons. Just varies from every-
>> Papers, potatoes, peanuts.
>> It just varies, depends on what we feel like growing that year. We grow everything we can for ourselves and then we usually focus on one thing, in a bigger area that we wanna.
[00:05:48]
>> Okay, market wise for your eggs and for your produce, do you like to gotta certain areas? Or is it just, do you advertise?
>> Eggs are usually word of mouth I've been selling them so long people come to me, so they're easily sold at my work, or here.
[00:06:10]
And the produce is usually sold at Jerry's One Stop, which is right up the road here. It's a service station. We usually don't actually we never mess with farmers markets.
>> Okay, is there any reason why?
>> It's too time consuming.
>> Okay.
>> You get more money for your product, but it eats so much time up that you lose in the long run.
[00:06:37]
>> Okay.
>> And really, there's a lot of people that sell their items at the farmers market that are kinda they advertise it to the in such a way that is not really what it is. So, like where they would say this is organic, or they give their items from another grower So, that's also another thing because the things that we sell are the things that we raise in.
[00:07:04]
I don't know exactly how to explain.
>> So they say it's local, but it isn't?
>> I don't know that for a fact, I just don't mess with them.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah.
>> All right, is farming part time?
>> Yes.
>> It is?
>> Yeah my full time job?
[00:07:25]
>> Yeah.
>> I work at McGuire Nuclear Station.
>> Okay. That's the one just outside Huntersville correct?
>> Yes.
>> Okay And would be there.
>> I'm a planner, plan various jobs scopes for people to go work on equipment in the plant. I'm on see which is instrumentation and controls and electrical and electronic.
[00:08:00]
Plan or so.
>> Okay, and how long have you been with Goo.
>> 14 years 14, yeah.
>> Okay, was that pretty much right out of the military as well.
>> Yeah, they actually called me and from military, I flew in for interview and dress history, a hard man for that.
[00:08:18]
>> Okay, so how would you describe your average day?
>> Busy.
>> [LAUGH]
>> So I get up at roughly 4:30 in the morning and go to work, I get home roughly 4:30 in the evening. And I work until the job's done, which is wintertime is after dark.
[00:08:43]
I usually get done anywhere from probably around 7:30, I guess you'd say. About three hours, depending on what I have to do, but roughly three hours. Also, as you can see, we milk Nubian-goats, so.
>> I saw the goats coming in.
>> Well, those are my neighbors'.
>> Those are your neighbours'?
[00:09:05]
>> Mine are down there, yeah.
>> Okay.
>> So it's a fairly busy day, a lot of people wonder why I do it, it just becomes a part of you, I guess, it becomes ingrained in you. And you just don't know any difference, I don't know what I do, if I didn't do that, so.
[00:09:23]
>> Did you grow up on the farm?
>> My great uncle is a biggest influence in farming. He actually worked, drive horses, and he did have some trackers, but he did a lot of horse work. Made a lot of hay, made hay everywhere, so I guess, he was a probably primer for me to get into farming.
[00:09:46]
My dad raised cows and we also showed quarter horses. So I've been around it my whole life, which the horse part never stuck, I guess, I mean, I can ride, and I can rope, and I can do all that stuff, but It just never appealed to me to stay in it.
[00:10:03]
Raising cows is what I took to you know and goats raising Western Nubians. I always had chickens, I can’t remember when I got first chick, my first chickens. Forever, I mean, I was young so, yeah, I've always done it.
>> All right, so you have busy days long days, Let's talk a little about, some of the issues you've run across with farming, let's start with say, weather conditions.
[00:10:46]
It's been raining a lot lately,so how does a lot of wet weather affect things, how does dry weather affect things?
>> Well, farmers had the old saying, a dry season will worry you, a wet season will bankrupt you. So mainly for road cropping and grain farming, but with raising animals, it being this way, it's not good at all.
[00:11:16]
So it's more difficult to maneuver machinery around a farm, you tear out everything, you go across. The conditions, the animals are in, you always worrying about, because where cold conditions. Well, it can make them sick, it can cause disease to come in on a herd that's vulnerable from poor conditions, it's a battle.
[00:11:43]
Trying to stay ahead of the worms, the diseases, and trying to keep it somewhat manageable. I mean, this year and last year has been, nobody I've talked to, no matter what ages never remember as it being this way. So it's been very difficult, especially the first of this year.
[00:12:08]
>> Okay, equipment, well, let me rephrase this, what have you found to be the biggest cost?
>> Well, your tractors are gonna be probably your biggest expense, if you're big farming. And everything that you have to have to do it, maintaining is very expensive also because they're diesel engines, they're heavy built, everything is costly.
[00:12:45]
Maintenance is more, because diesel is, but it takes several tractors just to keep an operation going. So I would say tractors are definitely your biggest expense next to bailing equipment.
>> Okay, what about seed or feed cost, are they-
>> Well, I haven't bought my fertilizer this year, so I can't tell you about fertilizer cost yet.
[00:13:13]
Seed cost, I haven't really bought any seed this year either. I mean, I can tell you that it's been better in the last few years around 2017, it was, maybe. No, maybe it was further back than that, the dry season we had, I can't remember when that was.
[00:13:37]
It might've been 2007, fertilizer was way higher, you remember when the gas got high, and everything got high?
>> Yeah. Fertilizer was ridiculous then, you couldn't make any money, so from there to now, it's really, it's come back down, but it's still not-
>> That was the year that we made 17 bales of hay from the front and the back.
[00:13:58]
>> Yeah, that was probably 2007.
>> Yeah.
>> I can't remember, but anyway.
>> That entire season was-
>> It was a really dry year, but stuff receives, I have really increased in props due to technology also. See technologies through the rough, but you pay really dearly for it.
[00:14:23]
And they've actually patented seeds to where you cannot, even if you grow something on your land it's not yours. You can't take that seed and grow more plants from it, because it is patented. The technology is patented, so that's considered the theft.
>> No, kind of wrong.
>> Yeah, yeah, corn long, you can't grow corn from not GMO, you can't grow GMO hybrid corn you grow, but you can't soy beans.
[00:14:55]
And what you know, and I know on soybeans, that's a big deal and there's been farmers that's been busted. And I've heard fines up to $80,000 on some of that stuff, they had to pay back the cost and fines on top of it.
>> Wow.
>> Yeah.
>> And so it being, that's pretty large crop industry around here, is it?
[00:15:21]
>> Yeah, Blanton Farms, I believe, was the one that, they actually took seeds from what they grew the year previous. And then they sold them, they sold that crop and they had to basically pay back the crop and fines on top of it.
>> Mm, I'm gonna pause it for just a second, we?
[00:15:40]
Okay, we are back. All right, let's see here, what were we talking about last?
>> Seed technology.
>> Seed technology, that's right, okay. What other kind of obstacles or challenges have you faced Well believe it or not, it's more difficult for a farmer my size than a farmer that farms 10,000 acres.
[00:16:10]
Because the margins are so tight on your profit you can't just, something breaks, go spend a bunch of money. You have to think outside the box sometimes on repairs. You have to a lot of stuff yourself, you have to learn. If you're going to farm you got to be a somewhat of a scientist, you got to be a mechanic, you got to be a welder, electrician.
[00:16:37]
I wouldn't say you gonna know all those aspect but you gotta know a little bit about everyone of them just enough to get by. So, it's a rare occupation and a fact that how much you have to know in order to just succeed. And it's hard for people my size because we can't really stay up on the latest equipment.
[00:17:05]
We can't buy bulk fertilizer, and seed, and save that extra money. It's difficult and that's why you really don't see any small farms anymore. Because there's not enough margin there for them to make a living. And that's why anybody my size even up to two, 300 acres has a job and also farms.
[00:17:32]
>> Are the two or 300 acres, would you consider those medium size or are those still small?
>> Those still small farms of today's standards.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah, back many years ago I guess you'd say 40 acres was a small farm and two, 300 acres was a large farm.
[00:17:53]
But technology has changed with the equipment. And you can get over a lot more acres a lot faster now, You can harvest way more acres than you used to be able to. So in order to form machinery that it takes to do that you have to have 10,000 acres to make an income plus pay for all that stuff.
[00:18:23]
>> So, you don't have any formal schooling for farming. It's more something that you just learn by growing up in it, is that correct?
>> Yeah, I mean, you really don't know what you learned, growing up, you just kinda remember, you know it. I mean, it's hard for me to sit here and tell you, well, I learned this doing it with him, and I learned this with him.
[00:18:53]
It's just stuff you pick up, and you learn from watching and listening to the old timers. And you learn by screwing stuff up and having to fix it. So making mistakes is probably one of the biggest teachers. But no I, no formal training and I just kind of learned as I went.
[00:19:15]
>> Okay, do you have you follow any kind of magazines or literature with latest techniques or information?
>> I'll try to yeah, I read articles on the internet and I see some magazines. Of course I think the biggest source of information is talking to other farmers and because when you got a big group of people everybody tries something different at some point.
[00:19:44]
Well, that's experience that you can take and keep for the future. So, I would say talking with older farmers and specially older ones are the biggest source of information.
>> Okay, that ties in nicely to what I was going to ask next. Which is do you belong to any kind of farming organizations or groups or a co-operative or anything like that?
[00:20:12]
>> No, no. Say I don't grind farm or dairy farm, which we do have dairy goats, but that's really small. So it's not big enough that commercial. In order to get into those areas you have to be in an area that produces a lot of something or big enough that you can be in something like that like a coop.
[00:20:38]
So just an informal group of people was really the only thing we had, just other people doing the same thing that I am.
>> Do you, are you able to find any helps for information by say, county officials or-
>> Yeah.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah, when I started using brewer grain I talked to the I don't know, I guess she's considered a field agent or state agent about it and storage methods of how I could install it and keep it for a longer term because it's wet.
[00:21:22]
So, yeah I've used them, I've even had, I can't remember his name, but had a guy who used to come out and sample my fields, soil samples.
>> Okay. They were pretty helpful and supportive?
>> Yeah. I mean, super nice, super helpful, those are good people. I've taken soil samples to the assistance center to have them shipped off.
[00:21:49]
I've asked questions there. And they always try to help you where they can. My experience has been with super nice people.
>> Okay. There's been a lot of change just from what I've seen over the last ten, 15 years with farmings in farm land. Have you seen the same thing, and how would you describe it?
[00:22:20]
>> I would say a lot of the changes I've seen is farming, and farm lands in general, they're becoming endangered. A lot of cookie cutter houses are being put up, neighborhoods It's eating up a lot of farm land, and especially if you're inside of an area that's close to a big city like Charlotte.
[00:22:45]
I've seen just on Highway 73 how they've been creeping up with housing developments. And then of course, you've got the younger generation, you take people my age, I'm 38. You have several in there that want to farm and do stuff like that but then you jump down to people that's maybe 20 it's way less in that generation that wants to do it.
[00:23:09]
It's hard work, it's little pay, it's long hours. And they just don't see the sense of it. Why do this when you can just go to a store and buy what you need and sat on my backside for the rest of the time. You know, so. Yeah. It's, I would say by the time I'm a old person, there's probably going to be very few farms my size left.
[00:23:37]
>> Which do you think the greater threat, the lack of interest or the encroaching of the development?
>> I think it's a combination of the two. People have lost most of what it takes to survive without an infrastructure like the grocery stores and the supermarkets, and so.
>> I think ignorance of what farming does for people and how it helps, and how it helps people think farming and environments.
[00:24:06]
But really, farming and environment's good because you will not find a person more concerned about their land than a farmer. They always worry about what he's putting this on, he's putting that on it. Well, a farmer is gonna take care of his land better than anybody else, because his actual income comes from that ground.
[00:24:26]
So I think it's a combination of both.
>> Do you do any organic farming, or do you try to-
>> No, no, I use chemical fertilizers. But I do feed, I guess you would consider it, well, I can't say for a fact it's organic, the grain, because I don't know the other farms it comes from.
[00:24:53]
I know one brewery I pick up from is organic, their farms. But the other two that I pick up from, I can't speak to. So I know one-third of it is organic that I feed, but as far as my fields and stuff, I use chemical fertilizers.
>> And we don't advertise as organic.
[00:25:14]
>> No.
>> Okay, no, I was just asking. I wasn't sure if it was strictly organic or if you were just trying to be as organic as you could.
>> I try to be, and I use a lot of the old ways. I take all the manure from the cows and the hay wastage and that gets put back on the fields.
[00:25:42]
And the chicken houses get cleaned out, and that gets back on the fields, and same with the goat lots. So I try to use as much, I guess you would call it organic fertilizers. I can, but there's just not enough with the number of animals I have to cover 80 acres of land.
[00:26:02]
So if I could use chicken litter, that would be great. But there you go again, the chicken litter, it might not be organic. Well, more than likely it's not, because the feed ate chickens was commercially grown. And I can about assure you it's not, because they're gonna buy from the cheapest they can get in order to make a profit with their chickens.
[00:26:25]
So it's hard to do organic. I don't know anybody around here that's 100% organic, but that doesn't mean they're not, I just don't know of any.
>> Okay, is there a core group of farmers that you like to go to if you have questions?
>> Yeah, there's two older gentlemen that I usually go to for questions and stuff.
[00:26:56]
They more than likely have seen a lot more. They've seen many situations I have yet to encounter. They're twice my, well, not quite twice my age, but they're a good bit older than me. So I try to always go to the people who's been doing it a lot longer than I have to get some information about what could happen, what's going on, what's happening, sick cows or feeding rations, stuff like that.
[00:27:33]
>> Again? Okay, now we're back. So in your experience so far, are there any interesting or funny stories that you might be able to share?
>> Golly, I'll tell you, if you would have asked me that, I probably would. [LAUGH] But-
>> What was the question?
>> On the spot, I can't really think of one.
[00:28:02]
>> If there were any interesting or funny stories to tell in the time that you've had a farm.
>> Well, I can tell you one thing. We actually was building a loft for that barn when a tornado actually come by the front of our house sideways. It was spinning.
[00:28:22]
The tail wasn't down on the ground. And I actually wrote that in the loft. I forget what year that was but-
>> My stepdad was building the loft. Yeah, me and him was doing it.
>> Yeah.
>> And a tornado went through.
>> Yeah, it was like sideways, it was crazy, it was spinning.
[00:28:37]
>> It was coming from here.
>> It was spinning but it was like this in the air. And so it went down the road, maybe I think it was eight or nine miles and touched down, and destroyed all kinda stuff in Huntersville. Man, I tell you it was, [LAUGH] it's hard to on the spot to think of stuff.
[00:29:05]
>> Well, have you been surprised by say, how successful some things were, or maybe not as successful as you were hoping, whether it's a crop or some kind of livestock?
>> Well, one thing that does surprise me is, like I said, I take my cows to Whitfield, Virginia every year.
[00:29:30]
And [COUGH] they're the ones that are fairly good size, they seem to. When a cow gets up to a certain weight, it will actually drop in prosper pound because it's one, they're looking for grazing stock, which is a certain target weight. And two, it's just gonna be less cuz the margin another farmer could buy that cow, and make money off of it, or steer, excuse me, is really small, right?
[00:30:00]
So if you buy a 900 pounds steer, at that point they're really growing a lot slower. So you'd be crazy to buy a 900 pound steer out of a feed lot like I have and put it on grass. You might get 2, 300 more pounds in a season and you have no money.
[00:30:18]
So the short ones, like the ones that, I've always got two or three that are smaller. And some are like way smaller, and I can't tell you why, if it's genetics or whatever from the dairy farms I buy from. But there's always two or three. And it never fails that these cows are all the same, steers, are all the same age.
[00:30:38]
Those little ones, that they not perform well at all at my place will bring way more money in Virginia because they're smaller. Yeah, it always surprises me. I'm like, these are low performance steers, and you would think people wouldn't. You see a group of steers come in, nine times out of ten, they've been raised together.
[00:31:04]
So, I always found that interesting that I would get way more money for those. And they're probably not gonna grow worth a hill of beans, so.
>> Now, how did you start going with Whitfield? Is that like a center for the cattle trade or?
>> It's a good hub to sell.
[00:31:28]
>> Anything from, it's really good if you've got 5, 600 pound steers, because it's a mountainous region. They don't really have a lot of road crop, they pasture raise a lot of beef. So they're looking for 5, 6, 700 pound steers, to put out there and graze for a season, and then take them to sell and make a little money.
[00:31:53]
But it's also a good place to take 900 pound steers to get them up north. Where your big feed lot or meat producers will have buyers. So those will more than likely go, they might go to a finishing lot to just pack on it. You can't put them on a finishing lot pack on a couple more hundred pounds in a month or two or three and then take them to the processor or they might go straight to processor.
[00:32:23]
So it seems like the more north you get, the better price you usually get.
>> Okay, what about going farther west or south, have you heard anything?
>> South, you don't wanna go south, cuz if you listen to people nationally, when they talk about cheap cows, cheap steers, they're talking southeast.
[00:32:42]
I don't know why. I think a lot of it might have to do with, well, I don't know why. But we're always considered cheap cows or steers in this area. So if you take them out west you're not really going to, Make what you would shipping them. You know what I mean?
[00:33:07]
I forget how many it takes to fill a tractor trailer but by the time you pay a driver and you send them out there your margin's about eat up. And like I said, we're considered cheap on cows or steers in this area, so as soon as they find out where they're coming from, they're not gonna be paying the price that you want.
[00:33:30]
So you'll do better going north.
>> Okay. So going forward, and this is kind of a three-part question, but it's easy to remember. So where do you see this farm in 5 years, 10 years, and then 20?
>> Five years, I hope to continue to grow. I've got two young boys that I hope to see start coming into it.
[00:33:57]
In five years, Joseph will be well old enough to start handling machinery. He'll be big enough to start handling hay, which he is now, really I mean, he can handle hay now but he'll be very proficient at it by then. Ten years, I hope to be where I need to be as far as size for me to start easing out of the operation.
[00:34:25]
Because in 20 years I hope to see them take over what I've built here. And if they wanna grow it from there that's up to them, but at a minimum I'd like to see them run it. If not, I guess when I die they'll have a bunch of stuff to sell.
[00:34:42]
[LAUGH]
>> Hopefully they won't have the same mentality that most kids that inherit farms have because really that sense of ownership and pride that our older generations like our grandparents had is not really existent. But there is a very clear difference between our kids' views and opinion of things versus their friends maybe that don't live on a farm.
[00:35:11]
So that's always interesting to me to see because kids they'll just tell you how it is, but-
>> Well, to get to where I'm at now in 14 years, I pretty well had to scratch, claw and dig for everything I had. So my biggest goal was to turn something over to them that will make money for them and they won't have to dig as hard as I did.
[00:35:39]
It's kind of like a baby starting to walk. You crawl, them first few years you're crawling, and it just creeps. It's like, I gotta have money for this, gotta have money for this, you gotta say, well, what's more important? Do I want a tractor or do I want a skid steer?
[00:35:59]
Do I need a loader, do I need a newer baler? And then, in ten years, you're like, well, I really need more land cuz I got all this equipment, so you start picking up more land. And so at, say, 10 years, which is the mark I'm around at 14, 15 years, I'm starting to really see it as far as my margins there, my profitability's there, my equipment has really come a long ways.
[00:36:28]
I've got a newer loader tractor, I say newer, but it's 2008. So to me, that's a newer tractor. I got a good loader. I've got the basic essentials I need to operate my operation. So I'm hoping 20 years from now, Bigger, hopefully I'd like to double basically what I'm doing, and then-
[00:37:00]
>> Double your acreage?
>> Double my profit.
>> Profit, okay.
>> Yeah, 80 acres is pretty good. 80 acres, I can push out a lot more cows or steers than I'm pushing out now. So I really don't think I need to get a whole lot more land. I'm probably good on land.
[00:37:16]
Facilities I need to upgrade. I really need a freestyle barn. So that's something we're gonna look at in the future. I got about five acres in the back that's really relatively flat so we're looking at some kind of infrastructure there, a type of feed lot to get them away from the house.
[00:37:36]
It's never been a problem till this year. It's just been a ridiculously wet season, and last year was a wet season. So it's try to control erosion and try to control the smell, get them back. So that would be a goal I'd like to see in the future.
[00:37:57]
>> Okay, have any of your other farming friends, mentors, have they mentioned anything about the younger generation in their families?
>> Pretty well nonexistent as far as farming. I really can't tell you last time I seen a kid that was 18, 20 years old. I mean, I'm sure they're out there.
[00:38:23]
Just me personally, I haven't seen that kid 18, 20 years old with an interest in farming.
>> All right, are there any questions that you feel I should ask? Or is there any additional thoughts that you have that you'd like to share that, say, you want other people to know about the farming?
[00:38:49]
>> Well, I would say farming, most people who farm, their personality, I mean, I'm this way, but a lot of people who farm they're like this. They're kind of closed loop. They don't really get out in the groups like you're talking about. But really the only reason that I'm still in business today and really more profitable than I've ever been in my life is because I actually started reaching out and talking to other farmers.
[00:39:20]
I got into a small group of farmers that through talking to them that I can get spent grain from breweries in Charlotte, which is awesome because the price is just phenomenal and the availability is really good. And so I wouldn't be in business today and still going like I am, if it wasn't for that fact.
[00:39:47]
So if I could share anything with somebody or give them advice I would say get out there, talk to people that are your size farming
>> Because talking to big farmers are really not gonna get you anywhere. Most big farmers ain't gonna give you time of day. They think you're not worth the time or effort because you're so small.
[00:40:10]
And believe it or not, there is a hierarchy in farming, so the big boys don't usually talk to the little boys. So, you need to find people that's relative to your size, that's been doing what you wanna do for a long time and just soak in as much knowledge as you can, because the more you learn the less mistakes you'll make and the more money you'll make.
[00:40:34]
>> Alright, very good. Those are all the questions I have for you at the moment. So with that, I thank you for your time. I appreciate it. If there's anything you'd like to share later on, just feel free to reach out to me.
>> I totally forgot to mention that his wife is extremely understanding of his time needs at the farm, you left that out.
[00:40:58]
>> Okay. [LAUGH] Well no.
>> That's okay.
>> I know it's in there now.
>> It is.
>> It's in the archives.
>> I think you raise a fair point, and if you're willing for me to ask?
>> Sure.
>> Did you grow up on a farm or
[00:41:15]
>> I did not grow up on a farm.
>> So, how have you adjusted to living on one?
>> Well now at this point, I don't do much with the farm at all. But before this point, up until probably two years ago, I would go out there in the morning and he would be at work.
[00:41:34]
I would bottle feed all of the calves. He would bottle feed them in the evening time, because they needed to be feed two times a day. Any of the births that were happening on the farm, if he was at work, somebody needed to be, since I was home it made it more, what is the word?
[00:41:52]
>> Well you was here, so you took care of a lot of stuff while I was working.
>> Yeah.
>> And you have to have somebody here, if you're gonna probably feeds calves, or you're gonna have goats that have babies. If you're raising them, you're gonna need to have somebody home the majority of the time.
[00:42:10]
Cuz stuff can go wrong fast.
>> Really fast.
>> And they can be over before you can deal with it.
>> Well there have been several times to where we'll be down at the barn, and Willow was six and a half her baby, and he had to go run down there because she couldn't fish her baby out.
[00:42:25]
So he had to pull the baby out, where had he not been here, we would have lost the baby for sure. With a high potential to have lost the mom also. So those things that require direct attention, it's really good to have that I was home and able to do that.
[00:42:43]
Cuz it does take a lot of his time. He goes to work full time, comes home, eats dinner, and is down at the barn.
>> In summertime, it's work till usually after dark, I mean [COUGH] usually 9:30, 10 o'clock, I mean. Cuz you're doing hayseeds, and you're planting, or you're doing tailage, trying to get if you're wanting to do sudex, or rye, or millet.
[00:43:10]
I mean, those are all summer grasses that you realm June, first of May is Starsky and hop and that's when high season comes in. And I don't really stop until about September.
>> In the boys, the last two years the boys have really drastically been huge helps on the farm, Joseph could run this entire operation.
[00:43:34]
He has really learned a lot, wouldn't you say?
>> Yeah, he's come on a long way.
>> He drives the truck while we get hay. He drives the truck around with the trailer on it.
>> He learned to drive the druck in my hay fields.
>> Yeah, he can feed all of the animals, he can water all the animals He can give direction to Hannah of things that need to be done, which is really a great help for them, because Joseph is only 11.
[00:44:00]
So, probably for the last two years, he's been like not since he was nine been able to really do anything that was needed to be done.
>> And Hunter, the youngest one he gathers eggs, cleans them and packages them for sale. So, he's involved also. Joseph takes care of the livestock guardian animals, the dogs.
[00:44:24]
And he helps with all the chores. So, I'm getting older and slower. I'm not that old, I'm 38 but I'm definitely not 20 any more I can feel that. So, it's natural and it works out about right that your kids start coming on about time you start going down.
[00:44:40]
So, [LAUGH] I can tell they're really taking up my slack.
>> Was there anything else you'd like to share about being the life of a farmer?
>> We ain't get vacation much.
>> Right, that is a frustration. And I think that if it weren't for the fact that we have the four great pyrenees, we have four great livestock, our dogs.
[00:45:05]
And it's not that they're not the friendliest thing, cuz they're not unfriendly. But they're bred to be, livestock guard dogs. So, it's difficult to find people that they will accept to feed them because they're.
>> They're really big.
>> Duke is like 180 pounds and his legs are like three feet long.
[00:45:26]
He's a monster. They're really big, and so before we had them, it wasn't very difficult to find people to feed up with this. Because we just had cows, and the goats, and they could just go in there, and it wasn't a big problem. But they're not letting nobody in there.
[00:45:42]
So now, they're very intimidating, and it's difficult to find people so that we can people to watch them so that we can go on vacation. It's pretty much all I have. And I'm like a good wife for doing all that, cuz I wasn't raised on a farm. You can second that.
[00:46:04]
>> Yeah, you've done well adjusting to the situation. [LAUGH]
>> All right [LAUGH] well I appreciate you both, let me go ahead and,
>> I do have one more thing to say.
>> Yes?
>> And this is actually really serious thing, I think that it is really interesting for the amount of food contamination issues that are all in the supermarkets, and recalls, and all of those types of things.
[00:46:39]
There are certain people that have the mindset that, like his mother, I will not eat food unless it comes out of a Saran Wrap package from the store. And a lot of people have that, if it comes if there's eggs coming from my barn, they're different from the eggs that come from the grocery store.
[00:46:58]
Do you understand what I'm saying?
>> A little bit.
>> People have that opinion, that they are not the same eggs.
>> Okay.
>> Does that make sense?
>> Because they're so accustomed to seeing it in the package.
>> Right, it's like a huge disconnect between, where you're food actually comes from versus a farm that raises cows, that butchers their cows, takes them to packaging and they're in this white packaged wrap, versus gonna the store where it's in that styrofoam thing, with that little pad and then the cellophane around it.
[00:47:34]
There's a huge disconnect where really it's the same thing, but one just skips all of that middle man mess and whatever they do to it. And then it's just.
>> Well I think ours is better. I think it's better really.
>> Well, I mean it is, that's what I'm saying.
[00:47:49]
But there's like a disconnect of people that I think, that if it doesn't come from a grocery store, then it's of different quality.
>> You can take a farm raised look like small farm raised beef or eggs. They're always going to be more flavor and richer because, small farms will take care of the animals better and they'll get more foof, they usually have more space.
[00:48:15]
So, overall just better conditions. So that's the difference, I mean that's why when you crack an egg open from a local farmer it's like almost orange. It's so rich, the yolk, and when you eat beef from a local farmer and it's got more robust taste and it's got less fat, it's because the cow was fed better.
[00:48:43]
Commercial is all about the cheapest, farmers, so that's the exact opposite of what is small farms are
>> What is your opinion on the farm to pork restaurants that are popping up
>> I think it's awesome, I think it's great you know one of the people in my group they actually are hooked up now with a brewery, and they're producing the beef for them to cook on the grill, so it's awesome.
[00:49:16]
And that's beef that was raised from their spent grain, so there's no waste, I mean it's very sustainable. People's not gonna stop drinking beer, that's out. So, you're always gonna have fade and so that they get one that for the bear microprocessor 100% gets used everything, the cow makes meat, meat gets eaten so
[00:49:41]
>> Well and really the cycle is even more fine tuned in that, so they we're uses the grain, the cows eat the grain, the chicken scratch the grain. Or is there, through their poop, the chickens eat the gray nuts not digested through that. And then the chickens are also getting fed, so it's really like a multilevel system.
[00:50:02]
Right, that was smart what I just said
>> [LAUGH]
Okay, all right, any last comments or questions?
>> It was great, I enjoyed it. Thank you for coming.
>> Thank you much.
[tabby title='Captioned Audio'] [tabbyending]Rowland Row farms - Mark and Mindy Robinson
Mark and Mindy Robinson are the owners of Tega Hills Farm in Fort Mill, South Carolina, a two acre urban farm with five hydroponic greenhouses. They employ five fulltime employees, and provide produce to the Matthews Community Farmers Market, Charlotte Regional Farmers Market, and multiple high-end restaurants in the Charlotte and surrounding areas. Tega Hills Farm dates back to the early 1970s as the brainchild of a chemist who was interested in hydroponic science and growing tomatoes, and was purchased by the Robinsons from its second owner in 1999. They became profitable circa 2004 when Mark decided to try growing microgreens. This one hour and forty-five minute interview covers the history of Tega Hills Farm, its owners, farming techniques, and their relationship with the community over the past twenty years. To the Robinsons, Tega Hills Farm is more than a business; it is a passion, almost spiritual in nature. Their workers and their community are extended family, and the care they take to preserve that relationship is expressed in almost every question they engage.
| Time | Subject |
| 0:00:07 | Beginning of interview |
| 0:00:24 | How he got into the farming/ Incubator program |
| 0:00:49 | Finding out about the Incubator program |
| 0:01:15 | Been farming for 9 years and focused on growing produce over livestock |
| 0:01:49 | Daily life of a farmer is always changing |
| 0:02:19 | Workload changes as the season's change |
| 0:03:38 | Spent summers on grandparents’ farms in Indiana |
| 0:04:17 | Grandfather farmed as a hobby |
| 0:05:03 | Farming as a career is similar throughout America |
| 0:05:29 | Smaller scale farming in operations is different to larger scale farms |
| 0:06:16 | Young/new farmers begin with a lot of idealism |
| 0:06:30 | New farmers face a realization that farming is fundamentally a business |
| 0:06:56 | Big learning curve for new farmers without a background in the industry |
| 0:07:20 | Gives an example of carrots to underline the long process of learning from your mistakes for the next harvest |
| 0:07:54 | Expands on the claim that they use “unconventional farming” and the process of certifying organic |
| 0:08:33 | Identifying his farm is not conventional agriculture and the perks of having a small scale farm |
| 0:09:30 | Reasons why he no longer gets his produce officially certified organic |
| 0:11:45 | New farmers embrace organic growing but it cannot meet the needs of the country |
| 0:12:24 | Doesn't want to use GMOs in his farming but believes they have a place in agriculture |
| 0:13:24 | Process of accessing farmers markets |
| 0:14:17 | Harsh reality of living within the means of being a farmer |
| 0:14:55 | Lack of interest in organic products at the cost they need to charge in his local area |
| 0:15:30 | Having to travel to gain access to a big affluent customer bases |
| 0:16:05 | Small-scale farmers face issues of access to the communities that are in need and cannot do more due to their own need to stay in business |
| 0:16:42 | Business with wholesale accounts that include local restaurants and that they are moving away |
| 0:16:58 | Experience with CSA programs |
| 0:19:00 | Local CSA based on community supporting the local farms and included a lot of outreach and communication between both parties using social media |
| 0:19:25 | Doesn’t use social media for his own farm although would love to |
| 0:19:58 | Offered more of a subscription box service and CSA has moved away from its roots |
| 0:20:45 | Looking into other avenues due to the expansion of his family with a young daughter |
| 0:20:58 | Positive and negative effects of farming on your perspective of life |
| 0:21:41 | Looking at other areas of agriculture that they could explore in order to make a bigger difference in the community |
| 0:22:35 | Set up a partnership with a local small-farm |
| 0:23:35 | Why he set up the partnership and the pitfalls many fellow new farmers fell into |
| 0:25:55 | The partnership was a success and focus their efforts on producing vegetables |
| 0:26:40 | What is important in a partner, and having to deal with his “ego” and other farmers |
| 0:27:00 | The importance of building relationships with your customer |
| 0:28:41 | Continuing the partnership with the neighboring farm and the positives the relationship |
| 0:29:15 | Socialism and experiences with discussing partnerships with farmers |
| 0:30:13 | What he learned from his mentor and the inherent differences between larger, generational farms and newer farms |
| 0:30:59 | He is the first generation of farmer building the infrastructure for future generations |
| 0:31:48 | [BREAK - Joe’s three-year-old daughter, Eleanor, joined us at the table] |
| 0:31:15 | The various opportunities available in nonprofit, and educational agriculture programs |
| 0:32:58 | Still looking at various options for where to take his farming career |
| 0:33:42 | There are changes in your interest the longer you farm |
| 0:34:14 | Interests have changed towards more scientific focuses such as getting the soil ready for growing |
| 0:35:17 | Also interested in taking his knowledge and experience of farming to an organization to make more change |
| 0:35:55 | Soil types in North Carolina and the issues he has faced |
| 0:37:40 | What cover cropping is and what weeds can tell you |
| 0:39:23 | Timeline of his farm moving from part time to full time |
| 0:39:57 | Support systems for new farmers |
| 0:40:30 | Sometimes there are things he needs that he cannot get from the community |
| 0:41:14 | Steep learning curve of new farmers and what they need to focus on to be successful |
| 0:42:15 | What public programs he used to set up and run his farm |
| 0:43:54 | Farming as a huge topic to cover and various skills required to be successful |
| 0:44:29 | Public needing more education on the many facets of the agricultural industry and how it affects them |
| 0:47:04 | Interview ends |
[00:00:08]
>> Laura Burgess: Hello, my name is Laura Burgess, and I'm a graduate student at UNC Charlotte. The date is the 20th of March, 2019 and the time is 4:15 in the afternoon. I'm here with Joe Rowland in Gold Hill, North Carolina at the Rowland's Row Farm. Hello, Joe.
>> Joe Rowland: Hi, how are you?
[00:00:24]
>> Laura Burgess: So I'm just gonna begin off with, how did you become a farmer?
>> Joe Rowland: Well, about nine years ago, I started at an incubator farm program here in Concord. It's about 15, 20 minutes from here in Concord, North Carolina. The idea is, they give you access to equipment, to some education, to a land base, and young individuals.
[00:00:47]
It's kind of like a business incubator, just for agricultural businesses, farm businesses, and so that kinda got me started down this track.
>> Laura Burgess: How did you find out about those program?
>> Joe Rowland: There was actually just an ad, or no, a story in the Charlotte Observer that my father-in-law happened to see.
[00:01:06]
And at the time I was interested in agriculture and kind of looking for land and wanted to buy something, and do something. I assumed it would be a hobby. I didn't think I would go into it full time, but I found out about the program, and started going for it and here I am, yeah.
[00:01:21]
>> Laura Burgess: So how long have you been farming?
>> Joe Rowland: This is my ninth season.
>> Laura Burgess: And what kind of crops or livestock do you produce?
>> Joe Rowland: Right now we are just solely produce, so fruits and vegetables. Over the years, we've done turkeys, chickens, ducks, rabbits. We've dabbled in mushrooms, we still do a little bit of that, honeybees.
[00:01:43]
We still play around with some of that stuff, but more on kind of just a personal level. But commercially, it's all produce right now.
>> Laura Burgess: It's amazing. So can you describe a typical day on the farm for you?
>> Joe Rowland: That is tough, it depends. The cool thing about farming is, well, it's cool to some and it might be nerve-racking to others, it's kind of always changing.
[00:02:05]
It's a lot of repetition, and when we get into a task, there may be a lot of repetition for hours or days at a time, but then a few days later you've shifted into another aspect. And with the seasons changing, it's really different. What I'm doing now is very different from what I'm doing in July, August.
[00:02:23]
The work loads change as the crops change, as the stages of development in a crop. You need different things when a plant is two weeks old than when a plant is two months old, so there's things like that. But typically we get going early, as early as we can.
[00:02:38]
We're out in all weather and all times of year. And there's a to-do list that is ever-growing longer and longer, and we just try to tackle and try to prioritize and try to figure out what. Sometimes it's putting out fires. Hopefully we've planned ahead, we have what we need, and we're just dealing with the next thing on the list.
[00:02:59]
But equipment breaks, you're juggling things and trying to figure out, well, now we can't do this. So let's move down the list and hit this thing and get that piece of equipment fixed and try to come back to that in three days. And so it's hard to give you a day in the life of.
[00:03:16]
It would depend on what day of the year and what's going on. So like October 12th.
>> Laura Burgess: [LAUGH]
Okay, so I'm just gonna quickly rope back to, you spoke about incubator programming, is it Concord? So did you have any previous experience with agriculture before you began? You said you were interested, but I just wondered, was it something brand new to you, or did you have some ideas of what it would entail before you began?
[00:03:44]
>> Joe Rowland: A little bit of both. So my family, in Indiana, I was born in Indiana, I've been in North Carolina since I was two years old, other than a few years I moved up to New England and Boston, lived up there. So I spent summers on the farm in Indiana, but those are different farms than the tiny organic vegetable farm I run.
[00:04:02]
Those are really big dairy operations and beef cattle operations and corn and soybeans and hay and those kinda things. And so I would just spend the summers with my grandparents helping them out on the farm, helping out in the garden. I thought farming was the best job, because my grandfather was retired, and he did this as a hobby.
[00:04:23]
So I would just hang out with him in the morning, and then likely to go fishing in the afternoon. So I thought, well, this is a pretty good job so I always kinda thought, I wanna be a farmer cuz you just get to hang out outside in nature, work with your hands that kind of thing.
[00:04:35]
So I was around it, but I never really lived on a farm or did consistent farm work until nine years ago.
>> Laura Burgess: So is there anything else that's different about your experiences elsewhere in North Carolina in terms of farming? You said that obviously in New England they are much bigger, and you're doing something very different here, but is there anything else that you recognize as different?
[00:05:03]
>> Joe Rowland: I mean, in a lot of ways, farming is farming across the board. It's hard work. You gotta be diligent, you gotta be self-motivated, you gotta be determined. There's a lot of ups and downs, there's a lot of variability in income and weather, and you're dealing with a lot of elements.
[00:05:19]
So I can sit down and commiserate with I got a gross thousand acres of corn in Iowa. We understand the tractor broke, or you can't get good help, but some of that is running a business and running an agricultural business. But then when you get down to the brass tacks of it, my little vegetable farm is night and day different than bigger farms.
[00:05:41]
The tasks that we have to do, the crops that we're growing just entail a lot of different things, so.
>> Laura Burgess: So let's talk a little bit more about your operations in terms of, so from where you are now to where you were when you first began, is there anything you changed, you had to adapt to anything in terms of running your farm?
[00:06:02]
Any external factors that kind of change what you anticipated you would be doing?
>> Joe Rowland: Yes, without having a strong background or I think a consistent upbringing in farming, I see a lot of people like myself come to it, and with a lot of ideals and kind of the symbol of frolicking in a meadow on your farm.
[00:06:29]
So you're up against that, and the more and more you get into it, the more you realize that it's a business like anything else. And there's a lot of logistics and dealing with employees and labor and the financial aspects of it. And it's not just going out and growing the thing that you love and you're passionate about.
[00:06:46]
Actually running the farm, there's a lot more that goes into it in the marketing and the sales that really maybe aren't the fun side of it that you got into it for. There's just a huge, steep, vast learning curve of if you don't have a strong background, I didn't go to ag school, so I just jumped into this and had to kind of learn it from the ground up.
[00:07:09]
And so just figuring out some of these crops we grow, we grow something like carrots, we'll grow some in the spring, some in the fall, a couple of times a year. So in nine years, I've only really grown carrots, let's say, 20 times or something. Or you may mess up the first three, four five, years.
[00:07:28]
And the thing is you have to remember from one year to the next what you did wrong, and have a plan to correct it or you make the same mistake again. And then it's like all right, well, now we got to wait until I'll try again in August or September.
[00:07:41]
And so it takes a lot of time to hone your skills, which is interesting.
>> Laura Burgess: Yeah, sounds it.
>> Joe Rowland: Challenging.
>> Laura Burgess: [LAUGH] So I looked at your website, you mentioned that you do unconventional farming. Could you expand a bit more on what you mean by that?
>> Joe Rowland: Yeah, so basically what I mean is we were certified organic for a long time.
[00:08:04]
We no longer pay for the certification and file the paperwork. And therefore I can't say we were an organic farm. And I just want to somehow get the point across to my customers that we are not just conventional, that we are closer to organic. Or we basically are organic other than the fact that I don't write a check and fill out the paperwork.
[00:08:23]
So the crops were grown the same this year as they were three years ago when we were organic, it's the exact same product, it's just that I'm not paying to have that symbol anymore. And so I just thought unconventional also is kind of a fun way of saying it, cuz it's like we're not conventional agriculture.
[00:08:41]
Nothing against them, but we're also unconventional. A little quirky, a little different, and that's what we kinda like about being small scale, local sustainable food system type stuff is, we're a little bit different. It's weird to say I want to grow vegetables for a living. There's not many people that want to do that, and not many people that do it on a really small scale.
[00:09:04]
I mean 1% of the population lives on farms now or something like that.
>> Laura Burgess: Wow.
>> Joe Rowland: It's something ridiculous when 150 years ago it was, well I don't know, the majority of the population.
>> Laura Burgess: Yeah, depending on where you lived, yeah.
>> Joe Rowland: So we are just in that respect, people that do this are pretty unconventional as far as mainstream culture goes.
[00:09:24]
>> Laura Burgess: So it's the reason why you no longer do get the certification, I wasn't aware that you needed to pay to get a certification.
>> Joe Rowland: Yeah, absolutely.
>> Laura Burgess: That's very interesting. So is the reason you no longer do that literally just because you have to pay? But then,
[00:09:38]
>> Joe Rowland: Well, yeah.
>> Laura Burgess: You don't agree with the-
>> Joe Rowland: No no no, there's bureaucracy in it. Which gets annoying and cumbersome but that's just bureaucracy in general. I agree with it. It's the best system that we have out there. There's some plus sides and some down sides to it, but for us it really came down to logistics.
[00:09:57]
It's a lot of extra paperwork. There's a lot of hoops and hurdles to jump through. And in certain situations like if I couldn't find a certain seed or if a certain plant, I couldn't use it. Or it wouldn't be allowed to be certified and so for us there was just some things that on a small scale with a small staff, it was just one more thing.
[00:10:17]
And it adds value in a lot of ways and puts customer's minds at ease and gives them a sense of what exactly they're getting. But my business, I'm so close to my customers, I look them in the eye every day. So I wasn't as worried about them not trusting me.
[00:10:33]
Because I can tell them, they can show up at the farm. They see me every week at a farmer's market, we're talking. And so they understand what we're doing, and they can just say to me, how did you grow this, and where did this come from, what are you doing?
[00:10:45]
So if I was in a different situation, if I was more in wholesale or a bigger farm to where I sold into direct markets and went to, I was just another line item on a spreadsheet. Then maybe having that organic symbol next to it, a USA symbol gets that buyer to say, let me try this product.
[00:11:05]
But I didn't see the value anymore. Although I do see the value ecologically speaking and from a health and wellness standpoint, I believe in it and I think it's the right way to go. So we need to move in that direction but it's just limiting, and economically speaking, it's tough.
[00:11:25]
>> Laura Burgess: Yeah, grinding, that was literally my next question in terms of, do you have to go by the USDA organic status? You also, that was great. So you say that you think, do you think that being, going organic is the future of farming, or is it the-
>> Joe Rowland: I don't know.
[00:11:40]
That's tough. I think a lot of it is, and that's something that I think a lot of younger or people that are young to the business, they kinda take this on. And especially organic growers like, we're the future and we're saving the industry or something I think that sometime, and I fell into that, and I think it's naive.
[00:11:56]
And it's somewhat insulting to other farmers or to conventional farmers to say that they're not doing, they're doing what the market has asked them to do. And when you look around the world like it's yeah and this country, it's easy to say that a lot of us can just afford to go to Whole Foods and buy really expensive carrots but there's a ton of people that can't in this country.
[00:12:17]
And then you look around the world and you start talking about how do we feed billions of people in developing countries. My little organic carrot isn't gonna do it and so a GMO and get into these whole debates and like, I don't want them and I try not to use them or I don't use them on my farm.
[00:12:36]
But, to say that they don't have a place when there's GMO rice or certain things that could save lives in Africa or something. I think it's a bigger question than my pay grade. And so I do what I can do on my small scale for my family, my community.
[00:12:53]
But we need bigger solutions in the long term for all that but I don't know how to resolve.
>> Laura Burgess: So you say that you're very kind of involved in the community and you really, you're into I guess community but you like the kind of meeting your customers. Could you tell me anything more about your process of going to farmer's markets, like how do you choose where you go, things like that?
[00:13:29]
>> Joe Rowland: Yeah, so we've been really lucky in that we've been able to get into the markets that we've applied for. And that's not always the case. So we've identified what we think are the best markets in a region, in an area that we would like to go after and we've been able to get in there.
[00:13:48]
And I have other friends in this situation that have identified markets, sometimes the same, sometimes different and not gotten in. And so that somewhat is upped the chance and updates like a job interview is like do you get it or do you not? And some of our success is directly linked to luck of or for what I mean hard work, but we got into a market that the sales are just going to be better.
[00:14:12]
It has a stronger following. It's in a more affluent neighborhood and as much as you go into this thinking you're going to grow food and provide for your community and the less fortunate and all these things. There's this harsh reality that to make the economics work, they don't really work, no matter what, like there's not money to be made doing this.
[00:14:31]
Unfortunately, you have to just really love it and be able to live within the means. And usually you make enough. We think we're successful if we make enough to get up and do it again tomorrow or next year. So savings and retirements and things like that aren't really something that I see a lot of farmers in this situation, or probably even the larger farmers, being able to do.
[00:14:54]
But getting back to the farmer's markets. We would love to do more in our local community. But on my farm right here, there is just not a strong draw for organic product at the price that I need to charge in a close area. And so what we've done from the start is we travel.
[00:15:16]
We travel an hour to all three of our markets. We're actually getting away from some farmer's markets stuff we're changing a little bit, but over the last eight years we've had three farmer's markets, and we drive 45 minutes to an hour to each one. To go to a larger metropolitan areas, to go to affluent areas where we have people that can afford that food.
[00:15:37]
And so in a way, we're successful for providing for people. Is it the people that really need it? Probably not because if I wasn't there, these people can afford to go to the next guy or to Whole Foods or to wherever it is. Whereas there's a lot of people that can't that we would love to cater to, and we just can't figure out how to do that and then Stay in business ourselves, and keep doing it.
[00:16:04]
So we figure we're doing as much good as we can with the situation we have. But access is a huge issue, and some farmers think about all the time. Well, farmers at this level and the ones that I know, think about all the time is how can we reach out, how can we do more for the right community and still watch our bottom line enough to be able to pay your employees and try to have some income of your own?
[00:16:30]
>> Laura Burgess: Fair enough. And so, we talked about farmers markets. Is there any other ways in which you get your product out there? Cuz you said that you don't go to the big kind of wholesales-
>> Joe Rowland: We don't.
>> Laura Burgess: Like that. Is there any other ways?
>> Joe Rowland: We do work with wholesale accounts.
[00:16:47]
We consider well of our restaurants and things wholesale accounts. So we've pulled back from that a little bit lately. But over the last few years, it's been a decent chunk of our business. Majority of our businesses has always been farmers' markets. And then we do CSA, community supported agriculture.
[00:17:02]
You familiar with that? The kinda the box subscription vegetable type thing. We've done that for a few years. We just decided to pull back from it this year. We're going in a couple different directions right now and kinda looking at the future and figuring out what we wanna do moving forward.
[00:17:20]
>> Joe Rowland: But CSA, the last couple of years is a decent chunk. But farmers markets have always been 60, probably 75% of our business.
>> Laura Burgess: Since you brought it up, can you tell me a little bit more about CSA in terms of, I mean, you say you're pulling back, but what what has been your experience of it?
[00:17:37]
>> Joe Rowland: Yeah, it's been a good experience. There's a lot of logistics and a lot of kind of dealing with, I mean, you're packing multiple boxes. Ours was fairly small, like 50 individuals. But that means one day we were packing 50 different boxes, so we need 50 heads of broccoli, 50 heads of cauliflower.
[00:17:53]
And we're individually, which is not something we always have to do is we don't pack individual orders. We crate up all the cauliflower and take it to a market, or put it in a box and take it to a restaurant. So there's a little more legwork in that respect.
[00:18:07]
It's cool connecting with the customers. It's amazing that they wanna support you in that way, and they're willing to pay us up, so they pay us upfront. And so, if you have 50 people by you, $300 at the beginning of a season, it's a big chunk of change.
[00:18:22]
At this time of year, we aren't making a lot of money yet, and we're spending a ton. And so, they're willing to give us money in January, February, March that we use to buy season fertilizer and fuel for the tractor and pay employees and things like that. It is almost like a small business loan, with a promise that, hey, in May, when we have veggies, we're gonna give you some great stuff.
[00:18:41]
They also accept some risk, because I don't know when the hurricane's gonna hit, or when the freeze is gonna happen. And so, there's a little bit of risk shared between them, which is customers and the farmers. Which is good for the farmer, at least.
>> Joe Rowland: But yeah, it's been good, we've enjoyed it.
[00:19:04]
I don't have anything really negative to say. Ours is more, it started out as more of a real community rallying around the farm. And they had kind of a Board, if you will, or a steering committee. And some farms do really detailed, intricate e-mails or print newsletters, and they spend a lot of time really connecting with that base.
[00:19:28]
And I would love to do that. I'm not that person, it's just not in my nature to go and do all the little blog stuff and that social media. But then also, it's just a lot for a small operation to add that on top of everything else. You're packing the boxes, you're growing the food, you're delivering it, you're at the market, you're at the pickup location giving them the box.
[00:19:50]
And then, you're kinda having to sit down and journal. It was just something that I wasn't really good at. And so, ours kind of was more of a vegetable subscription service, which you kinda see some bigger companies doing now. Blue Aprons and stuff, where you just get a box.
[00:20:09]
We're more personal than that. But CSA, a lot of if has kinda moved away from I think the roots of where actually started of being a really close-knit true community that near the farm. To now, it's like I grow stuff an hour and a half away and take boxes to a city and drop them off, and people pay me, and away we go.
[00:20:31]
And so, it's a good, as far as the capital and the money, it's a good situation for farms.
>> Laura Burgess: Is that the reason you're planning away from it now because it's kind of losing that community base?
>> Joe Rowland: No, no, no, we're just pulling back from, we're just looking at other opportunities, basically for ourselves, and thinking about our life moving forward with a small child, the logistics of the farm in general.
[00:21:00]
How the farm, the farm can take, and take, and take. And it'll take, any form will tell you, it'll take everything you can give it and need more. And so, it can put you in a really, although it's such a positive thing to do, to grow food to try to provide, it also can put you in a really kind of selfish, self-centered kind of place where every day it's all I'm thinking is what do I need?
[00:21:29]
When can I get it? Can I get it in time? How much? How off, like can you help me? Where are we gonna get this? And so, we're trying to just kind of balance that with having a young child and figuring out what this is gonna look like in five years, in 10 years, in 15 years.
[00:21:45]
And so, we're kind of pulling back, looking for some other opportunities in agriculture, in farming, in sustainable farming. Which is pretty amazing that 10 or 20 years ago, there weren't half of these jobs out there. Now, there's non-profits doing a ton of good work, community gardens, inner-city urban gardens.
[00:22:04]
And there's so many different programs where people are growing food and growing produce and vegetables. And so, we're kind of looking at other opportunities that can use the skills and the things we've developed over nine years to help people. And we just realized that we aren't gonna be able to get to the place that we really wanna get and do the kind of good that we wanna do by ourselves, and with our money, our own labor.
[00:22:28]
And so, I'm just wondering if instead of so many people wanting to break out on their own, if seeing more of people coming together. We formed a partnership over the last couple years and brought two farms kind of together and two labors together and two sets of equipment.
[00:22:45]
And we're able to see some good results with that and decrease the amount we were working and increase the amount of money we were making, and make life a little bit better. And so, I think it just kinda goes to show that there are ways to keep doing the local food and the sustainable organic farming thing without totally just martyring yourself to what a farm can do to you and your family.
[00:23:11]
And it can overwhelm every, emotionally, physically, financially, you name it. It can take control of all of those things.
>> Laura Burgess: Yeah, so you mentioned this partnership that you went into a couple of years ago.
>> Joe Rowland: Yeah.
>> Laura Burgess: Can you tell me a bit more about that? What inspired you to do that?
[00:23:29]
Did you see other people making these partnerships and good things coming from it? Or was that kind of something new and this I think other farm couple decided?
>> Joe Rowland: Yeah, it's kinda something we decided, something I had thought about and talked about some other farmers for a number of years.
[00:23:48]
Cuz what I see is being close to an incubator farm, coming out of them myself, that means I was with a lot of other young or newer farmers trying to start out, and get started. And I've seen a lot of people fail. I've seen a lot of people just start and just give up, and realize this doesn't make any sense at all.
[00:24:02]
I've seen people go and buy equipment, and go buy farms, and get in Over their head and realize wait, this doesn't work and have to go get jobs and figure out how to unravel the debt and the stuff that they've taken on. And what I saw happening more and more is people get excited about farming.
[00:24:19]
They wanna farm, they wanna farm on their own. It's kind of human nature where definitely the American spirit. I don't know how it is in the UK but here, we're like we're patriots. We're gonna like I can do it, I'm gonna do it, it's my world, it's gonna be my thing.
[00:24:35]
And so we end up like, the gentleman I partnered with, he lives one mile from here. And so I"m sitting here with a farm with infrastructure, with walk-in coolers, with a barn, with tractors, and all the equipment and greenhouses and high tunnels. He buys a property that has none of that stuff.
[00:24:52]
He's by himself, he's trying to figure out how am I gonna get all this stuff? How am I going to afford it? Who's going to work here? Who's gonna set it up? And I have all those things a mile away, and I need help and I can't find good labor.
[00:25:02]
And I'm trying to figure out, man, can I do this without more help? Or how does this work? And I've seen so many people go and buy another tractor, and then somebody else will get like you bought a walk-in cooler. I'm getting a walk-in cooler. And instead we're living like 30 minutes from each other and all these young farmers are just trying to go it alone.
[00:25:19]
And I'm just thinking to myself, man, if we took his tractor and my walk-in cooler and that person's barn and did it all, and threw three labors together. The big question, the big gamble is can you really increase efficiency in sales and net profit from doing that? And so it's something I had wanted tot do for a while, I had kinda talked to a few people and tried to start, and it really just worked out that he bought a place a mile away.
[00:25:46]
And it just seemed like why is he gonna buy tractors and all this stuff? Just come and use mine? And if you're gonna just come and use mine, well, why don't we plant some stuff at your house and plant some stuff at my house? And then if we do that, well, why don't we just get up tomorrow and go to your place together and do some stuff, and then come here, and let's just see how it kind of evolves?
[00:26:04]
And it was successful, we were able to, we dropped all of the poultry, we raised chickens for meat, chickens for eggs and ducks. We were able to drop all that which was 30 odd percent of our business, and go straight into vegetables, quadruple, or triple the amount of vegetable we were doing.
[00:26:27]
And then go out and increase our sales for the year and increase our net profit. And so pay him more than we'd ever paid out in labor and pay myself and my family more than I'd ever made. And so we see that it works, but there's opportunities there.
[00:26:47]
You've got to find the right people and egos and all that stuff is hard, and whose farm name, who's on the shirt, you know? That dumb stuff like that, that a lot of it's pride, a lot of it's ego, and I'm trying to get better about letting that stuff go.
[00:27:01]
Cuz it's really just growing vegetables, it's not, you hear people say, nobody's gonna remember in 20 years how good my carrots were. It's not gonna, you know what I mean? It's more about the relationships that you create along the way. So we're trying to kind of move towards a little more healthy way of life.
[00:27:20]
And we thought the partnership could do that, and it kinda did to an extent.
>> Laura Burgess: It sounds to me, throughout this whole interview, this kind of real importance. I know I keep saying it. Community and the, I know that a lot of people don't really, I mean I came into this project not really understanding the importance of agriculture, even coming from a background that I've come from.
[00:27:44]
And we're seeing it as like a young man's game and, like I thought, coming into this and me talking to a lot of farmers that has kind of gone through generations And interested. But you said by the incubator and you lot of young farmers that really want to get started but-
[00:28:03]
>> Joe Rowland: Yeah, they were all first generations.
>> Laura Burgess: All first generations?
>> Joe Rowland: Yeah, yeah.
>> Laura Burgess: So, do you think for the future in terms of I'm trying to speak more specifically in incubative farming. Do you think there would be a positive to maybe people grouping up together a bit more?
[00:28:20]
Cuz you said that a lot of people fell.
>> Joe Rowland: Yeah.
>> Laura Burgess: Whether they were aiming too high, or wanting to go it alone. And it sounds like is this partnership still going on with you at all?
>> Joe Rowland: It is yeah yeah, and even we're both looking at opportunities for the future, and he has a young daughter, a young family as well.
[00:28:37]
So we're just thinking about how it works, but no matter what, at least we're neighbors and we can help each other. Like, he wants to go out of town, we can watch his animals. So having that community, and that's what farming communities came from. Have big families so they can work on the farm.
[00:28:54]
>> Laura Burgess: Mm-hm.
>> Joe Rowland: Have good neighbors. Be good to your neighbor because when your cow's out, you need them to help or whatever the case may be.
>> Joe Rowland: And so, bring me back, where was I? Talking about community in terms of incubator farms, and you said previously that you saw that thing fail.
[00:29:13]
Right, so the thing about it is, is you have to say, like a very, very dirty word to really get to this thing, and that dirty word is socialism, right? And you can't say that word. The idea that you and I can put our joint efforts together for the benefit of us, all of us, is just a foreign concept to Americans.
[00:29:36]
And so every time that I have this conversation with people I'm like yeah, but if we could just figure it out, and other people have those conversations too, and I push back on it. When they're like, well, what if five of us got together and just decided, you grow this, and I'll grow this, and you grow that, and then we'll all put together and sell it?
[00:29:52]
And there's buying clubs, and co-ops, and place that farmers should do in that. Again, it's like kind of an ego pride thing. I would push back, but I wanna grow tomatoes too, I'm not gonna be stuck growing the whatever, you know? I don't wanna be stuck growing the potatoes.
[00:30:06]
Like whatever the case may be. But I think for sure with younger farmers and like with incubator models, or with farmer training programs, or any of that stuff. I think it just makes sense from an economic standpoint. Well, my mentor, he lives about a mile and a half from here, he's a retired extension agent, David Goforth.
[00:30:25]
He said something that I think about all the time, is it's hard to do in one generation when it took others two and three to do. And so when I look at my neighbor's farm up the road and I drop by like, God, he's got eight or ten of these huge tractors and he's got barns and buildings and so much.
[00:30:40]
Like man, that place is awesome. He's been three or four generations to get there. Whereas me, to walk on a property without a barn, without this and that and start building, it's gonna be hard to get it done. And so I think putting resources together, you can achieve more, and then I also think for farmers, we need to think about our new farmers.
[00:31:01]
We need to think about I may not be able to get there but I'm the first generation now that if I can set it up for my daughter, for her children, my grandchildren and great grandchildren. So, all these farmers are getting old and moving away from the farm, one generation of farmers that are first generation, they don't know anything about farming are going to swing, sweep in, and save us.
[00:31:22]
But if they can save some farmland, get the farm paid off. Build a couple buildings, buy a few tractors. Leave that to their kids now that they have infrastructure, they're not starting from nothing. And so we just need, I think, to build the farming community back up, and it just takes starting somewhere.
[00:31:41]
And so instead of looking at new farmers as knights in shining armor, which we wanna be, look at us as stepping stones, we're just starting the process.
>> Laura Burgess: Okay, let's just take a break for a minute.
>> Laura Burgess: And we are back. So I just wanted to kind of talk to you more.
[00:32:02]
You say that you're gonna go into some different future endeavors that kind of connect more with community. Is there anything specifically going on in North Carolina in the area that you're looking to go into in terms of organizations? Like you mentioned nonprofits, but is there anything in particular that has caught your interest?
[00:32:20]
>> Joe Rowland: There's a ton of just great stuff going on around here, up in the Triangle area, NC State Chapel Hill, Duke, all those up there. There's just a ton of ag-related, farm-related, some are nonprofit, some are through the schools, I mean A&T up in Greensboro. There's Cooperative Extension does a bunch of stuff around the state.
[00:32:44]
And then there's some nonprofits like the Organic Growers School. In Asheville, Carolina Farm Stewardship Association up in Pittsboro, that are kind of advocacy groups. But also doing a lot in the way of training and teaching and learning and connecting. In all that advertising, basically just building awareness, so I would love I'm not sure exactly where I'm gonna fall.
[00:33:09]
And exactly how we're gonna keep hobby farming or keep farming as a part time thing. Or start working with some other growers or what, I'm not really sure at this point, I'm open to opportunities. I'm kinda seeing what happens and we're still keeping the farm going, we've still got farmers markets every week, things like that.
[00:33:31]
We've just realized that we've got a, your priorities are changing, you've a little one. And we just gotta kind of think about what this job will look like in 20 years for me? And am I gonna be crawling up and down on my hands and knees like I do now in 20 years, do I even wanna be?
[00:33:48]
And something that's really interesting to me. And I've heard it from other folks that have been doing it 5, 7, 10, 15 years, whatever, is your interest changes. Like going out and digging carrots and bunching carrots used to be like so amazing. When you watch that carrot come out of the ground, like it's just the best feeling ever.
[00:34:07]
And more and more, I'm interested in cultivating, trying to keep weeds down. And doing fertility, making sure that cover crops, and making sure my soil's right. And I'm getting more and more interested in kind of the management and the science stuff of getting the environment right, the soil right.
[00:34:26]
To make the crop grow the way you want it, and I'm really interested in getting the crops to grow to their best. And then the harvesting, and washing and packing and putting it into cute little bag and pack it up. Which used to be so fun and so invigorating for me, now is not.
[00:34:42]
And I hear that from others, and that's a normal progression I think over the course of the decade. You change, I've started to learn more and get better at certain areas and that's what challenging me. And so I want to go more for the things that are challenging me and less with the things that are kinda old hat.
[00:34:59]
And I just realized on my own I'm not gonna be able to do that as much. I'm always gonna be the guy at least involved in bunching the carrots and washing them, and that's fine, I enjoy it a lot of the time. But I think I can take what I know and instead of having my cause, like go a little more towards.
[00:35:18]
Throw what I've learned in with an organisation that has some power and some backing. And see if I can help make more change in that respect, so I have no idea what that's gonna end up looking like, but we'll find out.
>> Laura Burgess: Sounds very exciting.
>> Joe Rowland: Yeah, I know it is.
[00:35:33]
>> Laura Burgess: So you mentioned kind of this process that you're really interested in now, about treating the soil and making it ready. Is that something that you've had to work on a lot here in North Carolina, on a farm here, like what is that process? Because I would've never have thought that had to be something, I just assumed my the ground is water ready.
[00:35:57]
>> Joe Rowland: No.
>> Laura Burgess: But obviously [LAUGH] that's not the case.
>> Joe Rowland: Not here, like in the Midwest, there with different soil types, but here we have a really old soil, heavy clay. It's tough to work with, you gotta be careful, when it's been raining like it has this winter, you just can't.
[00:36:14]
What happens if you take clay and some sand and mix them up and like pack them really hard together and bake them? It turn it into bricks and so that's what happens in our soils. If you go run and run a tractor through the fields when it's soaking wet.
[00:36:25]
Compact it, all that red clay mushes together and then the sun comes out and it's 90 degrees here in May and June. And you've just baked bricks and plants don't want to grow through that. And so a lot of that is, we don't have a lot of organic matter, so we're trying to build organic matter in the soil.
[00:36:40]
Clay soils in a lot of ways are good, they hold nutrients better, they hold water better. That can be good, that can be bad, so when the crops are in, it's nice that it holds some nutrient and some moisture. And it doesn't just all run through like a sandy soil, but here we've gotta kinda play with some of those things.
[00:36:55]
And really a lot of it is organic matter, and so that's what cover cropping. And doing things where we can put a lot of material back into the soil, get the life going, that's what organic agriculture is. It's soil-based, it's living soil, and so those are the things, it just takes a lot of time.
[00:37:15]
And that's one of the things that I stress about, and struggle with. Now it's like, I've got to go get this harvested, I've got to get this packed and washed. But I really need to plant that cover crop, or mow that and till it in. Because right now it's at the perfect stage, we're gonna get the nutrient content.
[00:37:30]
We're gonna get the stuff back in the soil that we want. Yeah, so there's a lot that needs to be done around here for the soil.
>> Laura Burgess: Yeah, so you mentioned cover cropping, can you just clarify what that is?
>> Joe Rowland: Yes, so we wanna have something growing on the soil all the time, now a cover crop might be whatever weeds come up.
[00:37:56]
And a lot of people, the people that I was learning from, used to say, whatever is growing there, needs to grow there. There's books that tell you like if you're seeing this weed, it tells you, you may have a deficiency in this. So nature is really smart, and you'll see it in a field, you till an area, and then a different weed will pop up there.
[00:38:13]
And it'll be there for a couple seasons or something, and then all of a sudden, a new weed will start to take over. And so, they're kind of figuring that stuff out on their own. But cover cropping is we grow a cash crop, the thing that we're growing, let's say broccoli.
[00:38:26]
We grow it for a season, three months, whatever, when that comes out, we need to let that field rest, right? Because that broccoli just sucked a lot of stuff out and then we cut the top off and took it. So we basically mined the nutrients out of that field and left it with the broccoli and we're gonna eat it, and that's great.
[00:38:42]
But that field now is low on those nutrients, and so you can just go buy them in a bag which we have to do. We buy organically used, organic products that came from living beings to creatures, organisms. Or you can grow things in place and basically mow them and till them back into the soil.
[00:39:01]
And send some of that nutrient back in and so there's certain crops that do certain things, fixing nitrogen from the air, things like that. So there's a whole fun science with that.
>> Laura Burgess: Sounds it, I just want to quickly clarify, so your farm, for you is a full time job?
[00:39:21]
Because I know there's a few people that my colleagues have spoken to where it's just like a part-time. As we mentioned, is going to be a hobby later in life, for you this is a full time?
>> Joe Rowland: It's been full-time since 2014, the first few years we were doing a few other things on the side, make a little bit extra money.
[00:39:36]
And in 2014 we went full-time, so for the last five years it's been 100% full-time. For a few years in the middle, it was my wife and I, it was our sole family income for a couple of years there.
>> Laura Burgess: Okay, so one thing, I know I keep coming back to it, but I think it's a fascinating this topic of young farmers.
[00:39:55]
And do you think there's a lot of good support systems in place for young farmers? I mean, you mentioned a few.
>> Joe Rowland: There are, there are a lot.
>> Laura Burgess: And deficits that could be filled.
>> Joe Rowland: Man, there's a lot of organizations out there, like Carolina Farmers Association, I already mentioned both of them.
[00:40:16]
I'm sure I mean Cooperative Extension, as I mentioned, I'm sure there's a ton that I'm not naming. But there's a ton of people interested in it, and it's always about helping the farmer, everybody wants to help the farmer. And sadly, what I come back to sometimes is what need, you can't give me.
[00:40:38]
The community could give it to me, but it's not realistic in a modern society, the way things go. And it's not just money, time and money are the biggest factors in agriculture, right? If I don't have the time but I got money I can pay you to do something.
[00:40:55]
But if I don't have the money but I got time, well then I get to go and do it. And it's always just balancing what's worth doing yourself, what's worth paying for and all that. Farmers, it's knowledge, I really think the deficit is, it's such a hard thing.
[00:41:11]
And what I said at the beginning about the learning curve is just so steep. That it's gonna take you three or four years to figure out what questions really need to be asked, and to figure out how things grow and all that kind of stuff. So it's just, they have a great system in place, everybody's working to try to help them.
[00:41:32]
And I think just more and more resources are great, grant funding, things like that are great. I think education and more hands-on direct production-based knowledge. Because if you build it they will come is a true statement, all right? You've got to be able to grow a consistent quality product.
[00:41:52]
And then you got to be able to sell it for sure, you don't wanna grow [INAUDIBLE] stuff and not sell it. But where I see people falling down is growing quality consistent products. And so to me that's what it's all about. If you don't produce consistently quality stuff, then you're in the wrong business.
[00:42:12]
>> Laura Burgess: Have you used any of these resources? You mentioned grants, things like that. So do you have any personal experiences?
>> Joe Rowland: I bought my farm with an FSA Loan, Farm Service Agency. Got a high tunnel grant through NRCS, got a well grant through Soil and Water, I think it's an EQUIP program, Soil and Water Conservation does that.
[00:42:35]
I have had small nonprofit groups do benefit dinners, where they donated part of the proceeds to me to help build the greenhouse, Carolina Farm Trust does that kinda thing. So I have definitely taken advantage of a lot of those opportunities, and they're great. Yeah, we need all the help-
[00:43:01]
>> Laura Burgess: [LAUGH]
>> Joe Rowland: Sadly, we need all the help we can get, and some people look at that and say, okay my tax dollars built him a greenhouse, or built him a high tunnel and put it in a well. But what,
>> Joe Rowland: What good is that ultimately gonna do, or my tax dollars, couldn't we pay teachers more?
[00:43:20]
Still have some potholes in the road, does really need a well to grow his vegetables? And that's true, I mean, that's a tough argument.
>> Laura Burgess: So I'm just gonna end it now with this last question. So is there anything that you want to add, is there anything that you wish to expand on, do you think I should have asked?
[00:43:43]
In terms of kind of understanding farmers' experience, especially young farmers', or new farmers' experiences in North Carolina and Piedmont area?
>> Joe Rowland: Yes and no.
>> Laura Burgess: [LAUGH]
>> Joe Rowland: I mean, it's just such a vast topic. It's an amazing thing, and once you get bit by, it's something that I think you'll always love and get passionate about.
[00:44:07]
But it's just such a huge topic that any given day you need to know a lot about plants and horticulture, maybe a little bit about small engine repair, carpentry would be nice. Marketing and sales would be great, effective leadership and management skills would be awesome. So I mean, there's thousands of questions that you didn't ask that I don't have answers to that, you know what I mean, but as the same time I just think we need more of it.
[00:44:34]
We need more consumers or just more average person buy in for understanding or knowledge about what's going on and how it actually affects that. And I've thought a lot more lately about the way it affects and ultimately, of health and wellness, right?
>> Laura Burgess: Mm-hm.
>> Joe Rowland: And so, eating more fruits and vegetables, eating food that's closer to the farm, knowing what's in it, what you don't want, choosing what's important for you.
[00:45:07]
GMO, antibiotics, pesticides, making decisions for your family, but being, as a consumer, being able to be informed. Some of the labeling and the way they require things to be labeled or not to be labeled, I think leaves a lot to be, what's the phrase, it's just lacking. We need more understanding of labels and how that works.
[00:45:31]
I for example grew pastured chickens, right? I raised my chickens on grass, they lived their entire lives. When they came out of the brooder at two or three weeks old, they lived on grass. I wanted to put on my label pastured poultry so my customers could understand these chickens eat grass.
[00:45:46]
They live out in a field. The USDA or NCDA would not allow me to put the word-
>> [NOISE]
>> Joe Rowland: Bless you darling.
>> Laura Burgess: Bless you.
>> Joe Rowland: That's my daughter, Ella.
>> [INAUDIBLE]
>> Joe Rowland: Yes, she's joining the interview, hi honey. They wouldn't let me use the word pastured, but yet, a huge food corporation can take a product that is unhealthy that is high in sugar.
[00:46:11]
And reduce it by a gram of sugar and slap a huge label on the front, this is now reduced sugar, healthy. That to me is ridiculous. And so the policy stuff at the top would change, I think could maybe trickle down to small farmers. Just in people be more aware of what they want to eat.
[00:46:32]
And seeking out people that do things in alignment with their values. So I think educating the public and hopefully legislation at the top, which unfortunately, that's a tough sell. You can't get a lot of good stuff done and there's a lot more important probably than food labels. But, to a foodie and to a farmer those are things that it seems to me like if we could fix food and fix health, a lot of other things would hopefully kind of settle and fall into place.
[00:47:06]
>> Laura Burgess: Completely agree. Well, thank you so much-
>> Joe Rowland: Thank you very much.
>> Laura Burgess: For your time.
>> Joe Rowland: Yes, absolutely.
Small City Farms - Kim Shaw
Kim Shaw started farming in Charlotte in 2007 in the Cotswald neighborhood before moving to her current location off Brookshire Blvd. In this interview she discusses some issues with urban farming and candidly recalls her memories of first starting out. She addresses the current situation of urban farming in Charlotte, including a lack of tax breaks and incentives, and issues involving increasing land development in the area. She began growing food for the restaurant business before branching out to the Yorkshire farmers market and creating a CSAs or Community Supported Agriculture. Shaw references the future of urban farming, particularly as Charlotte faces increasing development pressures.
| Time | Subject |
| 0:00:07 | Introduction |
| 0:00:40 | Thoughts on Farming in Charlotte |
| 0:01:03 | qualifications to be a farm, requirements to be a farm in the city |
| 0:01:37 | how to be a farm in the city’s eyes - 3 acres |
| 0:02:35 | benefits of being a farm with squarefootage of out buildings. |
| 0:03:19 | renting from neighbors. 0.25 acres in name only |
| 0:03:51 | Started in Cotswold around 2007. |
| 0:04:35 | Grew for restaurants and Yorkmont Market |
| 0:04:57 | looked for farms to buy to no avail |
| 0:05:13 | Moved to current location off Brookshire Blvd. |
| 0:05:28 | started farming out of necessity, decided not to go back to catering |
| 0:05:59 | reasons for not being able to get a farm. The expenses and commute. |
| 0:06:54 | more land would be nice for rotation. She does it by herself with maybe one other person. |
| 0:07:32 | -07:32 Wind disruption |
| 0:07:46 | current usage of 3 acres, what they grow |
| 0:09:23 | Start of the season, delayed by weather. |
| 0:10:03 | Greenhouse rented off craighead and tryon |
| 0:10:43 | showed picture of greenhouse |
| 0:12:03 | -11:59 wind disruption |
| 0:12:35 | Hated dealing with farmer’s markets, reasons = customers, locations, not selling much |
| 0:13:46 | Hassle of farmers market day schedule |
| 0:13:54 | do CSAs instead |
| 0:14:43 | Buys strawberries and peaches from Brent Barbee from Barbee farms for CSAs |
| 0:15:27 | growing food for chefs and restaurants, different foods |
| 0:17:11 | Fresh List mentioned |
| 0:19:16 | tight knit community with farmers |
| 0:20:39 | Paul Philpott |
| 0:21:33 | Piedmont Culinary Guild |
| 0:21:54 | Benefits of Fresh List |
| 0:23:36 | change of produce with Fresh List |
| 0:24:47 | food changes with changes of demographics - people wanting organic foods. |
| 0:25:59 | What type of foods people want. |
| 0:26:37 | CSAs, the varieties of foods involved. |
| 0:28:07 | more variety with Brent’s food in the CSA. |
| 0:29:07 | Talked of canning tomatoes, tips. |
| 0:30:39 | Caution with CSA, don’t give too much to shareholders. Don’t want wasted food. |
| 0:31:58 | Food harvested to order, not all at once |
| 0:33:40 | Using city water for farming. |
| 0:34:08 | Wished she had a bigger barn. Limited by CSAs. |
| 0:34:29 | -34:28 Wind disruption |
| 0:35:26 | -25. Wind |
| 0:35:43 | Location of farm in Charlotte, closeness to people in the city. |
| 0:36:29 | thoughts on urban farming, land requirement |
| 0:37:15 | Objection towards hobby farming on one acre |
| 0:37:57 | selling of Cotswold house |
| 0:38:57 | No tax breaks |
| 0:39:38 | Only commodity crops get subsidies |
| 0:40:57 | effects of Mecklenburg Land Re-Evaluation |
| 0:42:07 | No real urban farms in big cities. Selling of the Hall family farm for $22 Million |
| 0:43:07 | The thought of selling land to developers for big money. How much do they love farming? |
| 0:44:44 | Need of incentives to stay |
| 0:46:14 | Her prices of food have not changed since 2007 |
| 0:47:26 | Wages as a caterer, reflection of the times |
| 0:48:54 | Prices will have to go up for farmers to sustain themselves. |
| 0:49:57 | Quality of food and prices, people like cheap food. |
| 0:51:06 | restaurants adjusting their prices and menu items. Different cuts of meat now. |
| 0:52:00 | Closing remarks |
| 0:52:14 | Self-employment, different streams of revenue: sewing chef aprons. Benefits. |
[00:00:03]
>> Nick Kane: Okay, my name is Nick Kane of UNCC. We are doing the project called Queen's Garden, the oral histories of the Piedmont Food Shed. And today, I have Kim Shaw of Small City Farms located in our little city, Charlotte, North Carolina. And Kim, what would you like us to know about you?
[00:00:21]
>> Kim Shaw: [LAUGH] That's a pretty open question. I don't know, what do you want to know about us?
>> Nick Kane: What's your take on the farm system around here or maybe your thoughts on the food shed around here as well?
>> Kim Shaw: We're in the city of Charlotte, which is, we're actually in the city not just the county.
[00:00:40]
So the requirements to be a farm in the city is you have to have three acres. Right here, between here and down there, we have almost three. And then, we rent the remainder in order to qualify to be a farm. The qualifications are different. The IRS considers us a farm.
[00:01:00]
The FDA considers us a far. But to actually farm in the city, that's a requirement. Which I'm not really crazy about. I think it should be a dollar amount. And a substantial dollar amount so that rich people with an acre aren't getting a farm designation cuz their kids are selling zinnias on Sharon Road West.
[00:01:23]
But we found that out when we got our USDA grant for our high tunnel. And the people who built it were like do you need permits? And I'm like, gee, I don't know. Let me call the city. [LAUGH] And that's when the city told me that I wasn't a farm.
[00:01:40]
And I was like, well, actually, I am a farm. And we have the USDA number. And so, we had to go 20 rounds with them. And what we settled on was being able to rent in order to get our quote unquote three acres.
>> Nick Kane: So what kind of runarounds did you have to do with them just to continually figure out, I need to buy three acres or?
[00:02:01]
>> Kim Shaw: It has to be contiguous. It can't be three acres someplace else, it's gotta be attached to this property. So we asked various neighbors, and these guys which, especially two doors down, were the only ones who would actually do it for us. So we had to have a signed lease.
[00:02:21]
And then, the rules to be a farm apply to us. That hoop house is 70 by 30. It's 2,100 square feet. And if we weren't a farm, you can't, in the city of Charlotte, you can't have an outbuilding that is greater square footage than the first floor of your house.
[00:02:40]
So our house is 1,800 square feet. But if you're a farm, you can do whatever you want, pretty much. So we didn't to pull permits and stuff like that for it. So eventually, it was okay. But it was kind of, I mean, it was pretty surprising when they were like, hey, I'm like what are gonna do, arrest me for farming?
[00:02:58]
I mean like, what the ****? So it was kinda crazy for a while there. But then, now we've got that lease, so it's okay.
>> Nick Kane: So you rent property from neighbors?
>> Kim Shaw: Yeah, one neighbor.
>> Nick Kane: Just one neighbor?
>> Kim Shaw: Yeah.
>> Nick Kane: And he had, how much extra acreage did he have?
[00:03:14]
>> Kim Shaw: I think they were on 2.5 acres. And it's actually owned by a church and they loan us, rent us, I think 0.25, something like that. We don't actually use it. It's just in lease and money only, yeah.
>> Nick Kane: Okay, so you basically, do you guys give anything to them?
[00:03:33]
>> Kim Shaw: Yeah, we give them 500 bucks a year for it.
>> Nick Kane: Okay, gotcha.
>> Kim Shaw: For the lease, yeah.
>> Nick Kane: So would you guys consider moving out to the more further to the county, or you wanna settle here, and just?
>> Kim Shaw: No, we didn't start out here, we started out at our house in Cotswold.
[00:03:48]
The way we got started, I was Director of Catering at And out there, Mike started a garden with our chef who's now the chef of the Stanley, Paul Verica. And I got laid off in August of 2007. And I was already growing some stuff at home for him.
[00:04:11]
And we talked a little bit about growing more because we only had so much land available to us at the club. So that day that I got let go, I called my husband and I was like, hey, we were talking about growing more for Paul. I'm like we gonna be able to grow more, I don't have a job anymore.
[00:04:28]
So I had some severance, my employment, and so we started growing there in August. And we were at the Farmer's Market on by October, and Paul was my first restaurant customer. And we didn't move here until March of 2009. And we looked everywhere for farms. I mean, God, every fricking county, every, I mean Lord almighty, we had a foreclosure with seven acres under contract in 2008 for I wanna say, six months.
[00:04:58]
I mean, we looked all over the place before we finally found this place. Next door to Coca-Cola. [LAUGH]
>> Nick Kane: Wonderful Coca-Cola.
>> Kim Shaw: Yeah, yeah, I love it.
>> Nick Kane: Yeah, bottles, I think it's still bottled here.
>> Kim Shaw: Yeah.
>> Nick Kane: So was it out of necessity that you decided to start farming, basically?
[00:05:21]
>> Kim Shaw: It really was. I got offered another job as director of catering at another club that winter, and I was like you know what, I don't think so. It was obviously substantially less money. But at it was my favorite part of that job. And I mean, I was doing it basically for free, coming in.
[00:05:47]
But yeah, so that's how it happened.
>> Nick Kane: Why couldn't you find any farms around here? Were they just being tightly held by people, or?
>> Kim Shaw: Not really, I mean, part of it was financial. I mean, we only had a certain amount of money to spend, and when you're talking being close in to Charlotte, I mean, it's expensive.
[00:06:09]
And we could have found more land elsewhere, but then my husband Roland would have had to deal with that commute. He works for a not-for-profit on Craighead and North Trion. And it was sort of like what was worthwhile. And then, being closer to Charlotte with chef customers. We run our CSA here.
[00:06:30]
>> Nick Kane: Yeah.
>> Kim Shaw: They pick up here. Whereas other people have to be at a farmer's market for people to pick up, cuz nobody's gonna drive out to Richfield to CSA. So it's kind of a trade. It would be nice to have more land. Not to farm more but to be able to just rotate things better.
[00:06:51]
But for kind of one and a half people, this two and three acres is about all you candle by yourself. It's a lot of land.
>> Nick Kane: So what would you do if you got more land with?
>> Kim Shaw: We'd just rotate. I mean, this house down here that hasn't been lived in forever, I'm trying to get her to sell me a chunk of that land.
[00:07:15]
I don't think she will for whatever reason. It's been a rental. It's been whatever. Right now, because the weather's so bad there's nothing there's never [NOISE] September or October. And now, we don't have a place to even put, we can't even get onions in right now. So it wouldn't be more stuff, it would just be easier to rotate stuff out and have new buds ready.
[00:07:47]
>> Nick Kane: So what are you doing with three acres now?
>> Kim Shaw: We've got-
>> Nick Kane: [NOISE] chickens but-
>> Kim Shaw: Yeah, we've got whatever 30, 36, 40 chickens running around. We've got this [NOISE] right here, which we planted starting in 2011. I don't know if you can see all the way down there.
[00:08:08]
There's a big fenced [INAUDIBLE]
and at the bottom to this hill [INAUDIBLE]
park something on it. So right now we've got, and then we've got a 2,100 square foot hoop house. So right now we've got carrots in the hoop house, pea tendrils, green garlic. And in the big garden, we've got kind of the leftovers of our winter crops.
[00:08:47]
Collards, cabbage, kale, pansies, we do have a lot of edible flowers. And then in the little garden, we've got more kale. And so this weekend, cuz it's more dry this whole week, we'll probably be able to plow this weekend and then start making our rounds for summer stuff.
[00:09:10]
>> Nick Kane: So is mid-March considered late?
>> Kim Shaw: No, not really. The only thing that we're in a hurry to get in is really the onions and the [INAUDIBLE] everything else, all your [INAUDIBLE] til the middle of April, anyway. But it would be [INAUDIBLE] all that kind of stuff. [INAUDIBLE]
ready to get some stuff in.
[00:09:51]
>> Nick Kane: So there's a greenhouse as well?
>> Kim Shaw: Yeah.
>> Nick Kane: Where is that?
>> Kim Shaw: We rent that from Ron's work.
>> Nick Kane: [INAUDIBLE].
>> Kim Shaw: Trion.
>> Nick Kane: Trion.
>> Kim Shaw: Yeah.
>> Nick Kane: What's that like just a-
>> Kim Shaw: I mean it's really nice, he did green house, yeah, so we rent four tables out of it.
[00:10:08]
I think I've got a picture of it.
>> Kim Shaw: But because it's heated, as opposed to the hoop house, which is not the same as a greenhouse, we've got a fair amount of stuff started in there, herbs, flowers. These are two tables in that greenhouse right now. We were just in there this past weekend.
[00:10:33]
>> Nick Kane: That's impressive.
>> Kim Shaw: Yeah, so we start putting much everything from seed and transplants, the stuff that we don't direct seed.
>> Nick Kane: Did you have any trouble with the law or permits for starting a greenhouse and I think it was pretty close to a downtown [INAUDIBLE]?
>> Kim Shaw: [INAUDIBLE] They have their horticulture program so that's a whole different thing and they weren't doing it as a farm.
[00:11:12]
>> Nick Kane: [INAUDIBLE].
>> Kim Shaw: It's [INAUDIBLE].
>> Nick Kane: Okay good, [INAUDIBLE].
>> Kim Shaw: Yeah.
>> Nick Kane: Okay.
>> Kim Shaw: Yeah, it's cool. So we rent it all year, even though we don't use it all year, but we rent it all year.
>> Nick Kane: That's cool.
>> Kim Shaw: Yeah, very cool.
>> Nick Kane: What kind of, I guess it's pretty popular, so to speak.
[00:11:28]
[INAUDIBLE] for the community.
>> Kim Shaw: What?
>> Nick Kane: [INAUDIBLE]
>> Kim Shaw: No, they lost their grant for that, god, years ago. So right now it's just all their staff has all their plans in there and then us [INAUDIBLE] and then I grow plants for them [INAUDIBLE] plants, so.
>> Nick Kane: Yeah, so what's the ACSA working on [INAUDIBLE]?
[00:11:54]
>> Kim Shaw: Yeah, [INAUDIBLE]
yeah [INAUDIBLE]
starts should start at the end of April the last week in April that's 18 days.
>> Nick Kane: What pushed you towards that, the CSA?
>> Kim Shaw: I hate the market, I hate the market, I mean, it sucks. We did Lawn, we did Atherton, I mean, you gotta get up at the **** crack of freaking dawn.
[00:12:40]
Go out there and all those people with their **** Starbucks going, I can't justify $3 for a bunch of beets. And I'm just like, you know what? Yeah, so and it just really depended on your spot, we always had a **** spot at the market and it sucks to come home with product.
[00:13:02]
It's like it's just a huge waste, so I would much rather do the CSA cuz I know what I'm harvesting. There's no waste, restaurants, there's no, I'm not stuck with guess what? I didn't sell 20 pounds of lettuce, so what are you suppose to do with it? So when we moved here, I think we did market for two years, maybe.
[00:13:25]
And it's on Saturday, too. And there are so many farm things that gotta be done with two people [INAUDIBLE]. Eating lunch and then 2 o'clock it's like okay, so let's start work. In July I mean my God, [INAUDIBLE] you want for the money, I'm **** it let's just pick up some more CSAs and then we can at least maybe have Sundays off.
[00:13:52]
So that's how we came to do just CSAs and the restaurant stuff. [INAUDIBLE] I mean not to diss on markets [INAUDIBLE] but to hell with it.
>> Nick Kane: Do you think it's a difference between what you have versus maybe what other?
>> Kim Shaw: I don't think so I mean, [INAUDIBLE] I mean I think everybody's got a lot of the same basics.
[00:14:24]
But there are things that we don't grow because we just don't have the equipment. I mean, we're not growing strawberries here with black plastic and all that stuff [INAUDIBLE]. When we have our CSAs I buy strawberries from Brent and so the CSAs can't get that. And you have peaches, they are such a pain in the ****.
[00:14:43]
Brent grows delicious peaches, I'll buy them from Brent. But other stuff, Brent doesn't **** around with little teeny herbs and edible flowers and stuff like we do. But for just the basic stuff I feel like most people use the same seed sources and have pretty much the same kind of things.
[00:15:08]
>> Kim Shaw: You try to grow different stuff, and people always say I want something that's kind of different. And it's like what they really want is, do you have anything that's out of season now, which is not [INAUDIBLE] you can grow here, I'd kinda like some lemons. So when you grow really different stuff, we forever have chefs now, can you grow this for me it's like, yeah, sure.
[00:15:31]
And then they go, okay I'll take a pound and you're like, are **** kidding me? I grew a 100 foot row of this ****. So we we try to limit super off the wall stuff and try to kind of contain ourselves. We grew borage last year. Nobody ordered it, I mean no one ordered it.
[00:15:52]
>> Nick Kane: What's that?
>> Kim Shaw: It's an herb that kinda tastes like cucumber, it's got a blue edible flower. I mean, truly nobody nobody bought it. But there's some things that I just like to grow just to grow and I don't really care if people buy it or not. But it is better, it's a lot more lucrative if you can actually sell the **** you're growing.
[00:16:12]
So we try to we try to do that, but a lot of times when you meet with people and ask. Ask them what they want, and they tell you and you grow it, especially with chefs. It's like there's a reason why lots of people don't grow this kind of tomato here.
[00:16:28]
What kind of tomato you wanna grow in Nashville? So they don't do well here, and then can you get more money for it? Are they're willing to pay more for it, cuz the yields are so crappy? So I don't know, it's complicated.
>> Nick Kane: So do you have different CSAs with chefs and other customers?
[00:16:47]
>> Kim Shaw: No, the CSAs are just for regular people. They have full share and half share, and with eggs, without eggs. [INAUDIBLE] the side that you can add on to. Chefs just get our price list, and then we pull it from Freshlist as well. Do you know Jesse? Have you talked to him?
[00:17:05]
>> Nick Kane: Jesse?
>> Kim Shaw: Leadbetter, from Freshlist?
>> Nick Kane: No, no, not yet.
>> Kim Shaw: You ought to, he's a good resource.
>> Nick Kane: I'll check that out.
>> Kim Shaw: He started a few years ago and he buys from everybody local and then sells to chefs, which is great for us chefs who just want.
[00:17:24]
I'll have three pounds of whatever and we're like okay, that's $9. You can come get it, [LAUGH] but I'm not coming to your restaurant for 9 fricking dollars. So but when Freshlist orders, they ordering for me for a bunch of different restaurants. And it's like, well, for 100 bucks, sure, I'll deliver Freshlist.
[00:17:44]
And they work around with the other people, so it's just great. They deal with a lot of farmers, I mean, and it's a great resource.
>> Nick Kane: So like a middleman?
>> Kim Shaw: Yeah, he's a reseller. So he'll buy something from me for 2 bucks and then he just sells it to them for 5.
[00:17:59]
And then chefs don't have to come out here or rely on farmers to deliver and all that kind of stuff. A lot of people have tried to do what's he done. He's the only one who's been successful.
>> Nick Kane: Okay.
>> Kim Shaw: Yeah, he's a good guy.
>> Nick Kane: Who are the chefs you're selling to?
[00:18:19]
>> Kim Shaw: I don't know who Freshlist sells to. I mean, if I ask right now. [INAUDIBLE] So I don't necessarily know who they're selling to, but we sell to The Stanley, which is Paul's restaurant and 300 East. And I do flowers for The Stanley, too. And we sell flowers to 300 East, they arrange them and whatnot.
[00:18:59]
And that's it, and everything else is through Craigslist.
>> Nick Kane: Okay, so it seems like you have a really tight-knit sort of like community because-.
>> Kim Shaw: It is.
>> Nick Kane: Brent from Barbie. Are you like that with anyone else around here?
>> Kim Shaw: I'm trying think who I know. Dee and Jennifer Mollust from Laughing Owl.
[00:19:15]
They do Matthew's Market. We met them at the York market. Christie from Underwood, the guys at Topham. I think these guys are all at York market.
>> Kim Shaw: God, who are the guys with the beef? ****, I can't remember. But I mean, most people know or know of the chefs [INAUDIBLE].
[00:19:47]
We know him, and he's a great guy.
>> Kim Shaw: Yeah, there aren't really very many other farmers who were in the city.
>> Kim Shaw: Because we're not in market anymore, we don't get to hang out with farmers, like we used to, and this is that. I'll take the extra hour of sleep.
[00:20:11]
>> Nick Kane: Yeah.
>> Kim Shaw: But it's a tight-knit community from Charlotte. Chefs, everybody who buys local knows all the people who buy local. And Paul's, I guess, daytime chef is Ben Philpot. He used to be the chef at Larchen Grinder. And before that he was at Cafe Monte. And before that he was at Roosters.
[00:20:35]
When he was at Roosters he lived across the street from us in Pottsville when we first started out, and that's how I met him and his wife a long time ago. So and Paul's sous chef is his son Alex who I met when I was working with Paul at the Larchen Grinder.
[00:20:53]
He just walked in there. So it's pretty tight-knit, but I think a really nice community, chefs, everybody's really. There's Culinary Guild-
>> Nick Kane: Yeah, I do.
>> Kim Shaw: That we're part of, and I know is part of that. That's really helped foster that community a lot.
>> Nick Kane: Do you think there's gonna be a growth with more and more people to [INAUDIBLE] symposium?
[00:21:22]
>> Kim Shaw: Yeah, I mean, I think so. I mean, I think right now it's like anybody can join this right now if you can prove that you were buying local, but I don't think that's true any more. Although I do think the Freshlist is changing. I think they are really, really making it so easy for chefs, and I mean, I'm sure it's expensive but,
[00:21:52]
>> Kim Shaw: I mean, I think there's just a lot more people, chefs being able to use, because I don't have to have 30 pounds of whatever. It doesn't matter that I don't have it. It's like I've got 10, Brent's got 10, somebody else has got 10. It's like, okay, great, and now you can say you're sourcing local kale.
[00:22:12]
It's like okay, great. And also it takes care of that whole delivery business. I mean, it's just it's [INAUDIBLE] who are driving a long way. It's a real pain in the **** to get here. I mean, I think Jamie's from Milford. I think it's 95 miles round trip.
[00:22:30]
Yeah, I mean, it's a frickin haul so,
>> Kim Shaw: And you're going to a gazillion little restaurants. It's like geez, just come in once a week, from Freshlist and be done. So I think they're really, they've been growing a lot. So and they deal with some places that I don't think that we would ordinarily deal with, like Haberdish and Crespella.
[00:22:55]
They buy a lot of edible flowers from us. But through FreshList, though which is fine by me. It's good, it's a great way to move product. We have so many right now, I mean, I don't know how we would, we wouldn't be able to move them if it wasn't through Freshlist.
[00:23:16]
And we grew them specifically for that, because we knew that they've got a good market now so that's cool.
>> Nick Kane: Did you change what you're growing when you decided to go with Freshlist or you just kept deciding the same thing over again?
>> Kim Shaw: We changed a little bit cuz they asked us to grow some stuff, like radishes.
[00:23:36]
We didn't really move them that well. Because they are going off what chefs tell them as well. And everybody's like, what are you gonna use all these radishes for? Maybe they do, maybe they don't.
>> Nick Kane: [LAUGH] Lovely traffic.
>> Kim Shaw: I know, it's all the widening that's going on up here on the road.
[00:24:12]
But we grew a bunch of rainbow carrots because they were like, we can still move them, and they have, and it's great, and that's just really not something necessarily that I would have grown. And we upped our winter time [INAUDIBLE], cuz I knew that they would be able to move the stuff, so that's cool.
[00:24:35]
>> Nick Kane: Do you think some of the chefs are [INAUDIBLE] demographics [INAUDIBLE] wanted more organic, locally sourced foods?
>> Kim Shaw: I don't know. I mean, I think all of that just changes so much. It's like people want organic, then people want local, and then everybody's just talking about clean food, and it's like what is that, like code for like white people food.
[00:25:06]
It's like are you kidding me, what? I mean really. For us we find that our CSA demographic is a lot of times people with kids, and people are really, really concerned about that. Like super concerned about what their kids are eating, and on the other scale, like a market, there are a lot of old people who really, really, they think if they're eating this, they're gonna live forever.
[00:25:33]
Yeah, I'll sell you that, but restaurant stuff, diners are more used to [INAUDIBLE], they're a little more okay with the idea of, hey, it's December, there's no asparagus for you. It's March. Don't ask for tomatoes, and I think people are getting used to that. I think that [INAUDIBLE], people kind of know what that is now and they're like, okay, and they know what it is when they're eating out, and it's not a surprise for people to be like, okay [INAUDIBLE].
[00:26:19]
So I think that people are getting better educated about that for sure.
>> Nick Kane: Yeah. I know it's on your website, you had about the CSA is, that you're gonna get a variety of stuff at a times. I have the idea that every time something's written like that is that there is a specific reason that you guys have complaints about variety and they wanted certain other things.
[00:26:49]
>> Kim Shaw: Yeah, I mean, that's my thing, you can't have let people have what they want. Absolutely no, because otherwise, all people we want is like, I want peaches and tomatoes, and on July 4th, I want a watermelon. That's it. It's like, well, that's not what you're having, [LAUGH] because that's not what we have.
[00:27:08]
For a lot people going to the farmer's market mean just that. It's like I'm going to go when there's tomatoes, corn, and peaches. So there's no corn and peaches at the end of April. So you know it starts off, and I've got a whole, I think there's a link.
[00:27:24]
Did you read all the guidelines and all that **** it just went on forever,-
>> Nick Kane: I did breeze through that.
>> Kim Shaw: Okay, because it is gonna start off like really like with a lot of lettuces, and a lot of arugula, and stuff. By the time you're like, my God, I can't eat another freaking salad, [COUGH] the CSA sucks.
[00:27:42]
The lettuce is not, and it's like great, okay, good, my God, I can't eat anymore tomatoes. That's it, now that you're done. So it's just having that, and then that's another reason I buy stuff from Brent. So it's like, they do get peaches.
>> Kim Shaw: And then they do get strawberries.
[00:28:10]
>> Kim Shaw: So, it's not, but people are just, I let people fill out, if there's something you made, let me know, and we won't give it to you, and people are pretty good about that.
>> Nick Kane: Or allergens.
>> Kim Shaw: I had hardly anybody with allergens.
>> Nick Kane: Okay.
>> Kim Shaw: Which is really kind of amazing.
[00:28:28]
But some people, we have muscadines, some people are like, I hate muscadines, I'm like, what's wrong with you? People are pretty good at going through [INAUDIBLE]. I mean, last year we didn't have, we had an okay harvest. It was just crazy, [COUGH]. [INAUDIBLE] I noticed they had at least one week where it's all tomatoes, all Romas, and the idea is, it's like you were gonna put all these up, freeze them, so you're not, like [INAUDIBLE] in November, like, canned tomatoes to [INAUDIBLE]
[00:29:15]
>> [INAUDIBLE]
>> Kim Shaw: [INAUDIBLE] [INAUDIBLE] You really don't have to do it that, I mean it could be [INAUDIBLE] and if you wanna go an extra step, skin them, and put them in the freezer, and they'll [INAUDIBLE], and then usually I make a huge plate. I put some salt, and I just cook them down, probably about a day, and freeze that.
[00:29:45]
When I can stuff it's usually actually making jam, pickles, and when we have plums, canning whole fruit, but that's an easy way to do stuff, and I save basil and stuff, just stick [INAUDIBLE] put an ice cube tray. Dump them [INAUDIBLE]. Once again, you're gonna be so pissed when something calls for a [INAUDIBLE] basil, and you're gonna be like and you gonna have to go look at an **** to thirsty and pay $2 or something, just **** days where you're like, I should have frozen it like she said.
[00:30:21]
So that's as much as the CSA's about. You really can, onions are the same way. I mean, [INAUDIBLE] for the difficult, and we always have to be careful about the CSA. They're the number one reason people drop out of CSAs is cuz they're getting too much stuff, and people feel badly that they're not using it up, and they're throwing it away.
[00:30:44]
So a lot of times people don't understand that. They're like, why don't you just give it to your CSAs if you've got so much? I'm like, the CSAs would **** have a heart attack if I gave them all this ****. They would be, that's why they're, like, I'm not signing up again.
[00:30:56]
It was just too much stuff, and it all went bad, and we felt terrible.
>> Nick Kane: That's a waste of food.
>> Kim Shaw: It's a huge waste of food, and people can be very [INAUDIBLE]. I mean, unless it's specific stuff. I don't think I can give anybody too many of donuts peaches, but other stuff people do that like, wow, more summer savory, we had such a huge bunch of it last week.
[00:31:28]
>> Nick Kane: [INAUDIBLE] not getting rid of it per say, but selling it basically,
>> Kim Shaw: Most things will stand in the field for a while. If I don't have to harvest it, it'll It'll last out there. Could, but then it goes bad, so we really do cut stuff to order.
[00:31:52]
It's not like huge pools is just stacked with ****. Cuz that's where the way they're harvesting it. You order ten bunches of basil from me, I'm gonna go and get you ten bunches of basil [INAUDIBLE]. So it's a [INAUDIBLE] trying not to grow too much stuff. It's kind of a struggle when you're in the greenhouse and you're just seeding up trays of 36 I mean, you can seed it up, ten trays of tomatoes just like that.
[00:32:25]
I was like, what am I gonna do with 360 tomato plants? It's really difficult to be, you don't need all of that and to really be, I'd say that none of them I just planted a whole tray of which is like the artichoke but you to see the leaves the big blue plants out here.
[00:32:48]
Nobody buys them but they're a good cut flower and I had a friend who asked me for some. It's like well okay so it's hard sometimes to be like no like that's enough. We don't need five flats of Thai basil, nobody buys it. That really we do try to [INAUDIBLE].
[00:33:16]
>> Nick Kane: So now you haven't [INAUDIBLE] usually talking about the legality of the plant using scissors. And then the other issues you've had with this farming at all?
>> Kim Shaw: I mean from [INAUDIBLE]
No. I mean I wish we had a well, you've got city water here and it's not ideal.
[00:33:40]
Although we've got a way to water the hoop house off of the roof, the chicken house. But we got some big totes from Muddy River Distillery Belmont. They're totes but they're molasses coming from. And we had that catch and [INAUDIBLE]. So yeah that would be nice but I wish we had the money for a much bigger barn, walk in.
[00:34:07]
But it's hard to balance that, it's like we're limited by the number of CSAs that we have [INAUDIBLE]. Great brand new barn. I'm like, okay.
>> Kim Shaw: I go to [INAUDIBLE] patio and I plant them all up. And Alex is like [INAUDIBLE] it's like, yeah, sure. Can you [INAUDIBLE] we were so close, so it's not a big deal to go yeah sure.
[00:35:09]
[INAUDIBLE] like, I just need to run by.
>> Kim Shaw: I may just [INAUDIBLE] I need just women, [INAUDIBLE] yeah, sure, so it's super, it's super handy. When people think this is a farm, it's gonna be way out some place, I'm like, no it's not way out. People always get here early and are like, my gosh it's so close.
[00:35:41]
It's like, yeah it is, that's pretty cool. And this is getting closer to [INAUDIBLE] now than it was our old house. It cost. So it really it worked out. [INAUDIBLE]
What do you think about farming cuz it works and and at this poin we are and that's part of the thing with this explained requirement.
[00:36:33]
Anybody who doesn't have three acres is not farming in Charlotte with the [INAUDIBLE]. So I just I think it should be I think there's a balance there and it ought to be a money thing [INAUDIBLE]. Let's say that you're doing I don't know $10,000 an acre, then in the who gives a ****, if you acre or two acres or three acres or whatever.
[00:37:05]
It does, because I also object to people who are farming for fun for hobby, it's like [INAUDIBLE] prices that are ridiculous because they're just selling stuff because they've got extra. That's a difficult thing to contend with. But if you make that a requirement, then it's like, okay, and I think it evens it up, it would allow people to [INAUDIBLE] I mean, three acres of land is a bunch of money.
[00:37:37]
I mean it really is, you know.
>> Nick Kane: Especially Charlotte.
>> Kim Shaw: Yeah, people here in the depths of despair of the collapse of the real estate market. [SOUND] We sold our house to Concoswell, for I mean next to nothing. That house [INAUDIBLE] than we were paying. We bought this house in January and we paid that other mortgage all the way through November, two mortgages.
[00:38:02]
I just looked that house up which I shouldn't have but it's worth now twice what we sold it for, twice, I'm like holy ****. But the good thing is we got this for hardly anything. But it is really expensive, I mean that acre, 1.2 acres down there which is actually a separate parcel, but if you look up this house on the GIS you won't see that.
[00:38:28]
But that has gone now for tax value, we bought it for 19,000 and the tax value is 49,000.
>> Kim Shaw: Yeah and we don't get any break on that. I mean we just, I mean it's crazy. It's outrageous but it's a big difference from what we should be able to get some kind of break on it and it's farm land.
[00:38:52]
I don't know of any [INAUDIBLE] You know of any break, tell her.
>> Nick Kane: All right. [INAUDIBLE] The council, maybe.
>> Kim Shaw: Yeah, I mean for sure.
>> Kim Shaw: It would be nice to, to see that kind of you people think we get all kinds of tax, Breaks, subsidies and ****.
[00:39:18]
It's like, that's hilarious, no we don't.
>> Nick Kane: Is it only the bigger farms towards outer counties that have any breaks like that?
>> Kim Shaw: Subsidy crops are not food crops. They're commodity crops, soybeans, corn, vegetables, they don't have subsidies for vegetables. To get other stuff, different counties have different requirements for what is farmed.
[00:39:44]
In other counties, I mean it could be as many as ten acres, it's certainly a lot more than three acres, and I don't know all the ins and outs now we've waited. Vehicles, all that kind of stuff, but it's, you know, it's a whole kinda thing. But it would be nice to see, you know, some kind of tax break, just on this land would be you pretty cool, you know.
[00:40:13]
I mean the USDA grant that we got [INAUDIBLE] was cool. I mean, it's $9,000, but it's not free money, you have to show what is the income.
>> Nick Kane: Yeah, [LAUGH].
>> Kim Shaw: So yeah we have to pay taxes on it. So it's not, you know, here's nine grand [SOUND].
[00:40:31]
It's like, here's nine grand, and then the IRS is like. What [INAUDIBLE] with that nine grand? [LAUGH] No, no [INAUDIBLE]. I'm like my god, really? So.
>> Nick Kane: Was the barren taking a hit with the recent land reevaluation?
>> Kim Shaw: No, the land reevaluation hit was that down there.
>> Nick Kane: The land down there?
[00:40:53]
>> Kim Shaw: Yeah, that went up, whatever that was, $30,000, yeah. And then the land that this house sits on, that's the hit. So I don't know, it depends what the property taxes come back at so I don't know. I don't know with the kind of hit loss we'd take in terms of property taxes, so we'll see.
[00:41:10]
>> Nick Kane: Do you see that as a bigger future problem later on?
>> Kim Shaw: I mean, I do see it as a bigger problem being this close in. And you know, I mean, this is, I mean, this is, you know, people think, well, I mean it is the hood I guess?
[00:41:24]
And I don't know if it will stay the hood forever. But, if ever this does come up, you know, if somebody sells all these rental properties, and I don't know, I mean, that would be huge. We couldn't, I mean, if this property value just goes insane, I mean, it would just be outrageous.
[00:41:48]
Cuz I mean, like in a big city who the **** would farm three acres, five minutes, five miles from bucket. I mean, nobody would do that, because the land would be worth so much, you'd sell it. Which is why there aren't real urban farms in big cities, because if somebody comes along.
[00:42:03]
I mean, you saw that Paul family farm just sold for $21 million, for whatever, 11 acres. That's $2 million an acre. You don't think for a second if somebody offered me $2 billion dollars for that acre down there, I wouldn't be like, see ya, ****? Bye bye, packing it up.
[00:42:17]
>> Nick Kane: That's a lot of miniature horses for you.
>> Kim Shaw: That's a lot of miniature horses down at the beach now, we're not even in Charlotte any more we're too middle. Yeah, I'm the **** out of here so. And it's hard to, you know, and it it's hard to say to people why would you do that?
[00:42:33]
It's like are you kidding me? Like you'd be crazy not to. I mean I think about that at Brent sometimes, I'm like God almighty that property of his up the side of I-85, I mean.
>> Kim Shaw: I mean that probably's got it worth a **** fortune, you know? But, that's the thing, people love the idea of this, and the idea of urban farming and all that.
[00:43:00]
>> Kim Shaw: Do they love it enough to when this property is worth a half a million dollars or whatever to be like, since you're urban farming, we're gonna give you the tax break, you know? Did they love it that much, or are they okay for this to be packed up and made into a sub-development, and we'll just get our stuff from you know, Stanley County, or whatever other you know?
[00:43:20]
I mean that's the thing.
>> Nick Kane: So, you'd have to really love it to stay in when someone offers you that much money, really?
>> Kim Shaw: I don't know, you'd have to be out of your **** mind to stay, I mean you really would. I mean it would just be,
[00:43:35]
>> Kim Shaw: I mean, unless you have some sort of like really deep sentimentality, you know if it was family land. You know, something like that. Yeah then maybe, but otherwise you'd be crazy to do it, I mean, you'd be absolutely insane not to go, give me the money. You know, in my dreams it'd be great to have like a farm conservation easement here.
[00:43:58]
And like, this is all that can be done with this, but when Ron and I go to sell this, who's going to buy this and farm it? I mean, truly would we even be able to sell this [INAUDIBLE], you know, I don't know, in this neighborhood? I mean, I don't know.
[00:44:16]
>> Nick Kane: Would do you think about the development around here is almost a death spell for probably future [INAUDIBLE].
>> Kim Shaw: I think there has to be incentives, there has to be, well I don't know, I mean honestly,
>> Kim Shaw: It's just kind of the way it is, I think that the more your property is worth, is it being illogical to keep it to farm it, when it's worth so much money to turn over in the development, I mean, I don't know those guys at Whole Family Farm, but $21 million by will buy you a **** ton of land out in the middle of nowhere.
[00:45:14]
I mean you can live like a star in South Carolina for $21 million, I mean, holy **** [INAUDIBLE]. What is the incentive of urban farming, except do people like it? People like idea [INAUDIBLE] they love the idea of this, a farm in a city? How charming, that's so cute [INAUDIBLE].
[00:45:42]
But, I mean, how much do you love it, you know, really? Do they love it enough to [INAUDIBLE] since we've started. [INAUDIBLE]
$3 a pound, that's it. It's absolutely insane. So when you're looking at that, [INAUDIBLE]. Yeah [INAUDIBLE] 12 years ago [INAUDIBLE] paying a lot **** less than you're paying now.
[00:46:30]
And in another 12 years what's your tuition gonna cost? I mean you know, but it's still $3 for a pound of tomatoes, it makes no sense, it's crazy.
>> Nick Kane: [INAUDIBLE] Rectify that soon?
>> Kim Shaw: I don't see how, I mean, that's what people are getting for it, it's really crazy.
[00:46:51]
I mean, and I don't know how to change [INAUDIBLE]. I think that once Charlotte gets bigger, I think that things will change. But I also think a lot of other things are gonna have to happen. When I first moved to Charlotte and I was working for a catering company in like 99 and in 2000 as a lead server at Kate and Company I was making $16 an hour, that was almost 20 years ago.
[00:47:23]
Like nobody, wages haven't changed so I can't really ask you for more that three bucks for the damn tomato when you're still working as a **** catering company probably for $14 an hour now. You know, wages have to come up, all that ****, I mean my god we are gonna to have to start drinking if we are going to be talking about that.
[00:47:41]
>> Nick Kane: [INAUDIBLE]
>> Kim Shaw: [LAUGH] For sure, I mean all of that has to change you can't ask people, you know, that's why places like Walmart exists because you still buy **** $2 Well, a T-shirt and I have some of those T-shirts, can you buy? That's the same, it's really crazy.
[00:48:04]
>> Nick Kane: Think Costco hasn't changed their prices for those [INAUDIBLE] operation, you have an in house operation that with like that.
>> Kim Shaw: [LAUGH] Yeah, right, exactly yeah.
>> Nick Kane: So what are your thoughts on the I mean, do you see this, I know I asked you something similar. But is this you're gonna have to fight with the city council for breaks?
[00:48:30]
Or is it just something eventually that's gonna go away?
>> Kim Shaw: I mean, I think breaks would be nice.
>> Kim Shaw: But I think in a larger way people are gonna have to understand that they're gonna have to pay more for food. And I think it's really hard to ask people to pay more for food when wages haven't changed.
[00:48:55]
>> Kim Shaw: Yeah, the system is just not set up for that.
>> Kim Shaw: I mean, food should be more expensive, I mean, when I was in college, there was a $0.99 burger at McDonald's. I remember it, cuz we used to get Liftly Pennerly's to go get it. It was good, it had like a cheese sauce something, **** good, you can still get it a God damn, I mean, [INAUDIBLE].
[00:49:23]
I mean, how the **** is that possible [INAUDIBLE] I have no idea, but I mean it should be [INAUDIBLE]. The college that I went to when I was up there when I won the 17,000 is now 46,000, but the burger is still nice [INAUDIBLE] that's the fundamental problem.
[00:49:46]
>> Nick Kane: I think the price would reflect the [INAUDIBLE]
>> Kim Shaw: I mean, it really does, I mean, I think that we're growing just as good as stuff we did ten years ago, people are happy with cheap food, people love cheap food. And it's weird, people love cheap food, but when they're out, they'll pay $3.25 for a gun Coke and it's like, wait?
[00:50:19]
What account that's not even [INAUDIBLE] entree are sort of the same, now, your crap cocktail is at $14, it's like hold on [INAUDIBLE] you get a well plate for $5 [INAUDIBLE].
So it's like what the hell, so ten years ago you get a basket of bread with your food, you probably get a salad with your entree.
[00:50:54]
That's gone away. So that's the way restaurants were able to do and when they're be like and go around things. I mean, you know, really good restaurants. Nobody serves a **** filet anymore, it's all different cuts of meat, it's just, unless you go into a steak house, it's a much much different approach, the proteins aren't as big.
[00:51:21]
Unless you're going somewhere where that's just their thing. But portions are smaller, there are a lot of tasting menus, so you sort of think that you are getting kind of less. And it's like you get three of the tasting things and they were all $12 it's like, okay, I guess, I got a $36 entree.
[00:51:38]
But it didn't seem that bad when I was ordering it, so. God, I could just go on forever about this **** [LAUGH] there's no solution!
>> Nick Kane: Any final remarks or closing thoughts on urban farming or anything really?
>> Kim Shaw: Or anything? [LAUGH]
>> Nick Kane: Not all anything, but something related to this.
[00:52:00]
>> Kim Shaw: [LAUGH] You know it's a good life, I mean, it is in the sense of I am my own boss. I mean, at this time of the year, I'm right now, sowing that's my thing, sowing. I made all the aprons for Stanley and I made Paul's apron that he just wore at the Charleston Food and Wine.
[00:52:23]
So it's pretty handy to have some other revenue stream at this time of year while we're waiting to get started, but, yeah, I'm really glad that I don't have a boss and that is really cool. I break up, I'm here with my three dogs, and I'm doing stuff that I wanna do.
[00:52:46]
So it's a big trade off. I mean, it beats working for a country that where all you're doing is kissing a lot of really rich people's **** all day long. I like being at that planner, but it's like that. That's a lot ass-kissing and as you can see I'm like, maybe not my forte [LAUGH].
[00:53:07]
So, yeah, people are cool with not having a bunch of money [INAUDIBLE] not having a bunch of money.
>> Kim Shaw: Yeah, I mean, it's definitely a trade-off, but I think all of [INAUDIBLE] participate in everything, but I mean, it definitely is an effort.
>> Kim Shaw: [INAUDIBLE]
it's all good, it's all good.
[00:53:44]
>> Nick Kane: All right, all right, thank you.
[tabby title='Captioned Audio'] [tabbyending]Springs Farm - Ronald Edwards
In this interview, Ronald Edwards describes the different entities that comprise Springs Farms and its history dating back to the 1930’s. He shares his personal memories and background in the farming industry, along with his present role as general manager of Springs Farms. Topics that were discussed include the origins and legacy of the farm; the size of the operation and what businesses were part of Springs Farms, including its farmers market, retail store and growing fields, food that they produce- including peaches, strawberries, produce and other products; challenges that the farm has faced including the current rainy weather conditions, and the daily operation of the farm. Some of the most important topics discussed were the history and the legacy of the farm, its interaction with the local community, and challenges that the farm faces in its day to day operations, whether or not to organic in the light of the importance of keeping costs down while competing with larger corporate farms. Highlights of the interview included discussions of growing the Carolina Reaper pepper, and a description of beavers clogging up waterways and flooding crops. Mr. Edwards’ descriptions and accounts clearly illustrate the challenges faced by farmers in the region during an era of change encompassing organic strategies and competition from corporate farming.
| Time | Subject |
| 0:00:07 | Beginning of interview |
| 0:00:17 | restart of interview after accidental recorder cut off |
| 0:01:21 | began working for Springs farms at 11 years of age |
| 0:01:41 | became general manger in 2008 |
| 0:03:10 | Springs Farms, Peach Stand, Farmers Market and Anne Springs Greenway –same owners |
| 0:03:50 | All produce is grown in and around Fort Mill SC |
| 0:04:26 | Contract grower for Carolina Reaper |
| 0:06:46 | Born on a Dairy farm |
| 0:08:32 | Wife diagnosed with MS, needed better insurance, so took a job at Springs Farms |
| 0:09:12 | four full time employees at farm plus employs seasonal H2A workers |
| 0:10:09 | sell to a few wholesale customers and restaurants |
| 0:10:47 | Niche is fresh produce |
| 0:11:47 | issues with weather, deer |
| 0:12:39 | Beavers building dams, causing problems! |
| 0:13:57 | organic soil |
| 0:14:13 | organic is in the contract with the peppers |
| 0:15:07 | consumer change in purchasing habits |
| 0:17:41 | regional growth has positive impact on business |
| 0:19:22 | no governmental support or association |
| 0:19:44 | Member of Farmer’s Market Association, North Carolina Strawberry Growers Association |
| 0:20:21 | Community Support Agricultural Program |
| 0:24:49 | Participation in Strawberry Festival |
| 0:26:07 | Future changes may include greenhouses |
| 0:27:39 | Weather |
| 0:28:07 | Competing with Earthfare, Fresh Market etc. |
| 0:30:07 | New farmers need a plan |
| 0:31:47 | Works for good understanding people |
| 0:32:42 | Farm originally started out with peaches and cattle |
| 0:33:07 | Agritourism |
| 0:34:52 | Pumpkins and deer |
| 0:35:57 | Carolina reaper |
| 0:37:07 | previous interviews with reporters |
| 0:37:52 | additional contact |
[00:00:11]
>> Speaker 1: Okay, we try this one more time.
>> Speaker 2: All right.
>> Speaker 1: Cut it, the camera cut itself off, okay, today we're here with Ron Edwards from Springs Farms. I'm Adam Hussein, the interviewer, I'm from UNCC Graduate School. And we're doing a project gathering oral histories from the Piedmont Food Shed.
[00:00:32]
And Mr. Edwards has been gracious enough to grant us an interview. And today's date is March 11th, 2019, and we're doing this interview at-
>> Speaker 2: The Peach Stand.
>> Speaker 1: The Peach Stand down here in Fort Mill. [LAUGH] And first of all, I'll just start with a couple of questions.
[00:00:54]
If you would state your name, and what your position is, and what your job is here? And your age too if you'd like to tell us.
>> Speaker 2: Okay, my name's Ron Edwards, I'm 55 years old. I've been with Springs Farms since 2004, worked here as a kid. I actually started over at the old Peach Stand selling peaches when I was actually 11.
[00:01:21]
You can't do that anymore, but anyway, I worked from 11, all the way through high school. Went on and done some other things and had the opportunity to come back to the farm in 2004, so I came back. And now, I was promoted to General Manager in 2008.
[00:01:43]
>> Speaker 1: Okay, one of the questions that actually I wanted to start with is, we didn't realize. Cuz like I say, we've come down here and we also belong to the Greenway, my wife and I. We go hiking and things, are all these connected? And if so, how are they connected?
[00:02:05]
>> Speaker 2: Well, the Greenway is under Leroy Springs, which is a nonprofit. And the Greenway is a 2,300 acre tract of land that's been set aside for hiking, biking, horseback riding, and so forth. Springs Farm is its own entity, we're a for-profit, sometimes that's hard to do. And the store here where we're doing the interview is The Peach Stand and it stands alone as its own company.
[00:02:38]
Our name kinda goes Springs Farm/The Peach Stand, we do a lot of,
>> Advertising and marketing together, and a lot of people think that the Peach Stand is part of the farm, but we're actually two [INAUDIBLE]. So that's how that works, as far as with the Greenway and the farm.
[00:03:01]
>> Speaker 1: Are they owned by the same family or totally separate entities?
>> Speaker 2: No, everything here is owned by the closed family, they broke the Greenway off, because it is a nonprofit. But no, the farm, Peach Stand, and several other businesses they own in Clear Springs, Springland, and they've got several other business they own.
[00:03:27]
But it's all under the umbrella of the family.
>> Speaker 1: Okay, the farm where you guys grow, and I saw on your website you grow besides the peaches, like strawberries, and blueberries, and protist. Where was that grown at?
>> Speaker 2: Well, were kinda scattered all over town, but we are right here in Fort Mill.
[00:03:51]
We do have about 25, now, we have about 25 acres of peaches. We have about 17 acres of strawberries, we have about four acres of blackberries and probably,
>> Speaker 2: I don't know, probably about 12-15 acres of vegetables. That's cucumbers, squash, cantaloupe, okra, tomatoes, that sort of thing. And then also we are a contract grower for the Carolina Reaper, which is the Guinness Book of World Record the hottest pepper in the world.
[00:04:30]
We contract grow those peppers for Ed, the owner of the Carolina Reaper. And this year we'll be growing 32 acres of peppers.
>> Speaker 1: Now the Carolina Reaper that you grow,
>> Speaker 1: What's unique about it and what makes it so hot? And is there a certain way you have to grow it different than the other peppers?
[00:04:56]
>> Speaker 2: We grow it organically, we have some ground, certified organic. We grow it organically and it's really not any different, it's just a pepper plant, but we start it from seed in a greenhouse. We have four greenhouses and we start it from seed, and then we put it the field.
[00:05:18]
The only thing about the pepper is is that the seed, you have to wash them in peroxide before you plant them, because they'll burn your fingers.
>> Speaker 1: Wow.
>> Speaker 3: And then, when we pick them you have to wear gloves, because they'll burn your fingers.
>> Speaker 2: And once we pick them, they take them and make a mash out of them.
[00:05:40]
And then they sell the mash to people like Campbell's and different people that wanna put spice up their food or whatever. But no, it's a pretty easy plant to grow.
>> Speaker 1: You just have to be careful.
>> Speaker 2: You just got to be careful harvesting and handling it, because there's a reason it's the world's hottest pepper.
[00:06:03]
It's hot, it's hot, I've never tasted one and don't ever intend to, but I've seen and watched people on YouTube and stuff. And it's ridiculous how hot the thing is.
>> Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm with you. And actually, we were in Kansas just over the weekend, and actually, that came up.
[00:06:20]
Cuz I have a brother that likes everything hot and that actually came up in the conversation.
>> Speaker 2: [LAUGH]
>> Speaker 1: And I'm sure he'd be just fine eating it.
>> Speaker 2: We can fix your brother up.
>> Speaker 1: Okay, let's move on on your background, did you have any formal education with farming?
[00:06:38]
Or how'd you learn to do what you're doing and get to the position that you're in now?
>> Speaker 2: I was born on a dairy farm, which is where Carowinds is at, my dad, that was our family land, and my Dad sold out in 68. But we had a dairy farm there and raised dairy cattle.
[00:06:58]
And then we picked cotton and so forth. So when we sold out, we moved down to Fort Mill in 1969 or 70. My dad continued to farm, we row cropped about 300 acres around in the community. And we had about 60 acres of alfalfa hay also, and then in the early 90s, when things started booming and popping, as far as housing, and everything started to,
[00:07:29]
>> Speaker 2: Grow, so to speak, we lost a lot of land and so forth, but at that time, I was working public work. When I graduated from high school, I went to Nashville Auto Diesel College. Because I'd been around equipment all my life, tractors, and trucks, and stuff. So I learned the trade and worked for Duke Power for 14 years.
[00:07:53]
And then farmed on the side with my dad and my older brother, and then once we lost all our,
>> Speaker 2: Land that we leased farming. My middle brother started a landscaping business, so we transitioned from farm to landscaping. So my older brother and I were able to leave our jobs and come home, and the three of us were in the landscaping business together.
[00:08:23]
And then we rocked along there for a little bit, and then my wife was diagnosed with MS. And so, I had to have a lot better insurance than you have when you're in business for yourself, so to speak. So they had a job open here at Springs and I'd liked to say, I've worked for them for years in the past.
[00:08:43]
So I knew the family, knew the whole operation and so, I hired on in 2004 and then the manager left and they moved me up. So I've been around here all my life.
>> Speaker 1: So was that a natural fit for you?
>> Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, cuz I've been in agriculture all my life, so.
[00:09:00]
>> Speaker 1: Now, of course, so it's for profit this partner thing, so you do it have a full-time employees?
>> Speaker 2: Yes, we have I think there's probably four of us to the full time, and then we bring in H-2A workers to harvest the produce and the peaches and the strawberries and so forth, and the peppers.
[00:09:24]
They're on work visas, they're all legal, nothing cash under the table, nothing silly like that. Everything's up and above board and so, that's our workforce.
>> Speaker 1: The protist and everything you make, do you guys just sell them at your farmer's market and the store here, or do you guys produce for other people?
[00:09:53]
>> Speaker 2: Well, we grow our produce for our store here at the Peach Stand, we have another store across town, seasonal store at a farm market. We grow it for there, the old Peach Stand across the street here, we sell it there. We have a few wholesale customers, we've got a couple of restaurants that buy from us.
[00:10:13]
And we are GAP certified, good agricultural practices, so we have that. But mainly we try to sell everything, as much as we can, in house, because we can get a retail dollar for it, instead of trying to go out and wholesale it.
>> Speaker 1: Yes, sir, obviously more profit if you can retail it.
[00:10:32]
>> Speaker 2: Yeah, and plus, our story is we grow it here, we sell it here. You can ride by our fields and see us picking, then you come down here and purchase it. That's how fresh it is, we're big on fresh, we pick it that morning, and try to sell it all that day, and so forth.
[00:10:51]
So we try to put a good product out there for our customer.
>> Speaker 1: Got it, and then I can testify that there and it's good.
>> Speaker 2: Yes.
>> Speaker 1: What is your typical day like? I mean, like your duties and-
>> Speaker 2: Yeah, well, we come in, in the morning we usually start around seven.
[00:11:11]
And we'll discuss what needs to be done that day, and our men in Dudley Fields would go wherever. Right now, we're building some fences, right now, we're pruning peach trees and also pulling weeds out of strawberry plants. And so, we got different groups doing different things. But a lot of people don't understand our day is we're driven by the weather.
[00:11:39]
And here lately the weather's not been on our side with all of the rain. We're getting behind, I'm getting very concerned about how far we are behind now. Cuz we need to have the ground fixed with some plastic to lay for vegetables and stuff. And it's just not getting done, because it's just too wet.
[00:11:58]
So people don't understand that now. You can come in here and get out of the rain would sell meat, we can do everything. But when we're out there trying to grow it and produce it, we're so whether driven these, people don't you see the too wet, too hot, too cold.
[00:12:16]
I mean, it's last week it got real cold, we lost a few peach blooms. So I mean, you gotta deal with that, and then we have deer getting in our strawberries. You put fencing up, but still they'll find a place to get in. So now, you've got to deal with deer and the last little critter we've been dealing with is beavers.
[00:12:39]
They've dammed up our creek and now, the creek is backed up, so that it's starting to flood some of our fields. So now, we're working with the game wardens in the wildlife resource department on what are we gonna do with these beavers. So it's something all the time, it just never a dull moment, believe me.
[00:12:59]
>> Speaker 1: That's a new one for me, I hadn't heard about the beavers causing problems.
>> Speaker 2: Yeah, they are a tremendous little animal that causes a lot of trouble.
>> Speaker 1: Yeah, actually, you touched on actually one of the things I was gonna ask you about how the weather's impact you this is like the wettest I've seen.
[00:13:18]
I grew up in this area and I can't remember, I can't remember a year this wet.
>> Speaker 2: My dad's 92 and he said, you better hope it don't stay dry as long as it stayed wet, that's all I can tell you. [LAUGH]
>> Speaker 1: I was gonna say that it's probably tough the other way around I mean, at least with the moisture the plants are getting some moisture.
[00:13:38]
>> Speaker 2: I can get water to them, that's not a problem, I can get to water to them, it's just right now, we got too much water.
>> Speaker 1: Are your farms organic or did you sell any organic?
>> Speaker 2: Well, we have some ground that red still organic and I could, I guess, we could sell a lot more organic stuff than we do.
[00:14:05]
But most of that ground is in the peppers, because that's kind of in the contract, that we gotta do them organic.
>> Speaker 1: Yeah they are.
>> Speaker 2: But I will say this, we spray a lot of stuff when we have to spray. A lot of our sprays are registered organic, because I mean, let's face it, I'm a consumer too, you know?
[00:14:27]
And I don't want anything on my stuff that's gonna harm me or anybody else, so we try to be very careful with that. We try not to spray just to be sprayed, because for one thing it's expensive, and the next thing, if the plant doesn't need it, then there's no need putting it on.
[00:14:50]
We're very cautious about how we do things.
>> Speaker 1: Have you noticed anything change in the way people farm or agriculture in general in this area, say, in the last 20 years or so?
>> Speaker 2: Yeah, now, we notice that people don't buy as much as they used to. 10 years ago people would come in and buy a half bushel of peaches, or an old box of apples, or something like that.
[00:15:20]
Now, people just want just enough for the night, and I'll be back tomorrow maybe, and get some more, just not buying bigger quantities. At one time, they did, I don't know. People do, I think, it's more of a push to have kind of farm-to-table type situations, where they know it's fresh, and this kinda stuff.
[00:15:45]
Cuz if it comes from California it's got to be picked, and it's got to be cooled, and it's got to be trucked. I mean you're talking five, six days out before the consumer ever gets it. So I mean, some cases I guess you have to go that route, but in the summer time, it's always good to be able to eat fresh.
[00:16:06]
>> Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely.
>> Speaker 2: And I think there's a movement toward that, so we've definitely seen that.
>> Speaker 1: Yeah, that's of course fresh and organic, of course, we see some of that in some of the interviews and the questions. What happens is you push for that, and of course, as you said, you were saying it's more expensive and they have to sell it for more.
[00:16:32]
And there's a certain market for that.
>> Speaker 2: And not to hammer on organic, but if you've got a disease, it doesn't know if the plant's organic or conventional. And if it jumps on you, you better have something to attack it and get the disease stopped. It's not you'll lose your crop, it'll take the whole crop.
[00:16:52]
>> Speaker 1: Now, are there specific insecticides and things that people who say the growing organic that they use rather than well.
>> Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I'm not saying that they did not use an organic products. I'm just saying there comes a time when you get a disease and track nose.
[00:17:10]
Of how to do something, I mean, if you don't get something on it, get proactive, you can lose your whole crop quick.
>> Speaker 1: [LAUGH]
>> Speaker 2: Yeah.
>> Speaker 1: Okay, flow development traffic, this area's growing significantly, is that helping or hurting your business. How's that impact, I guess, the farm?
[00:17:39]
>> Speaker 2: I think it's helped us, but I think our problem is a lot of my employees, we're from Fort Mills, we grew up here. And so, we think everybody ought to know where Spring's Farm is, and we think everybody ought to know where the Peach Stand is. So I think sometimes we lag behind sometimes on our marketing, because we have to think out of the box a lot as far as always new people moving in and traffic.
[00:18:05]
I did put a little satellite stand at a corner that I thought would be ideal, it had plenty of traffic. But what I found out was,it had too much traffic, people couldn't get in and out. Once they got in, you could ride in, but you couldn't ride out so to speak.
[00:18:21]
And so, we found that after a few people came in and had a tough time getting out, that what we thought was a good location, because of traffic was really not that good a location. Those people just couldn't get to you with all the traffic was so heavy.
[00:18:39]
So we've enjoyed the folks coming in and trying to let them know we're here. Let them know we, pick fresh stuff everyday, so it's like anything. It has its good sides and it's bad sides, but when you're in the retail business it's positive.
>> Speaker 1: Yeah, overall positive you would say-
[00:19:02]
>> Speaker 2: Yes, yes.
>> Speaker 1: The growth.
>> Speaker 1: Okay, now, you're a private industry, is there any support from local organizations or government organizations for farmers that-
>> Speaker 2: No, we don't accept anything from anybody. We stand alone, do our own thing, as far money, and finance, and all of it.
[00:19:27]
We don't accept any grants or money.
>> Speaker 1: Totally independent?
>> Speaker 2: Totally, totally do it on our own.
>> Speaker 1: You guys members of any farmers associations-
>> Speaker 2: Yeah, we're members of the The South Carolina Farmers Market Association, members of the North Carolina Strawberry Growers Association, things like that. I serve on the board of the North Carolina Strawberry Growers Association.
[00:19:52]
Even though it's North Carolina, they like to have a board member from South Carolina and Virginia and Georgia, if we can get it. Cuz we all in the same region, so we all share the same concerns. So we try to be as active in stuff like that as we can be.
[00:20:14]
>> Speaker 1: Now, I was on your website, and that interesting to me, you have a community supported agricultural program that you have.
>> Speaker 2: CSA.
>> Speaker 1: Yeah, tell me how that works?
>> Speaker 2: CSA is basically, it's what we're growing right that week, you get a box. You buy different sized boxes and you get a box every week of what we're growing.
[00:20:39]
And you pick it up once a week, and it's been a real, a real good thing for us, because sometimes we have more produce than we can move in the stores. So now, we've got another outlet for it is putting it in CSA boxes, community-supported agriculture. And so, it works real well, we've had a lot of repeat customers, but the concept is what we're growing this week.
[00:21:07]
This week, you may get peaches, blackberries, strawberries, tomatoes, cucumbers, squash. Well next, as the season goes on, guess what, we're not picking strawberries and blackberries anymore. So you won't get that, so now, you're gonna get some okra or you're gonna get some string beans. It's just whatever we're picking along the summer, as the summer goes on.
[00:21:36]
That's what's gonna be in a box, and the box determined the size of the box determines the family size, and how you'd like to do it. We have a small box of maybe just one person or two people would like, or have a bigger box that a family of four would like.
[00:21:53]
But yes, it's a great program.
>> Speaker 1: So if somebody were to sign up for it, they would pick which quantity they would want?
>> Speaker 2: That's right.
>> Speaker 1: And how long is the duration of that?
>> Speaker 2: We do at ten weeks.
>> Speaker 1: Ten weeks?
>> Speaker 2: We do ten weeks and last year we did a fall fall program.
[00:22:10]
Where we have it laid out in the store, and you come in the store and you get your box, and you can get, if it's six items there, you pick maybe four items or five items out of the six, whichever you like the best. And I think that went over pretty well last year, it was our first year.
[00:22:31]
That's the reason we kinda did it that way, but, no, it's a good program and people really enjoy. And well, so we'll put the recipes in there to tell, okay, I've got the squash. So what I do, I fried it other ways to do squash, or zucchini, or things to do recipes and stuff.
[00:22:56]
So I think that's helpful, also.
>> Speaker 1: So you run that out of your Farmers Market locations.
>> Speaker 2: Run it out of a farm market over off Springfield Parkway, just above Nation Fort High School.
>> Speaker 1: Somebody warned you that day, was the sign up online, or-
>> Speaker 2: Yeah, it's, and times, I'm not sure of the date of the last day, but it's winding down.
[00:23:18]
So if anybody wanted to sign up, they better get going, cuz it's coming to an end.
>> Speaker 1: So has that been pretty successful and you maybe plan on expanding that program?
>> Speaker 2: Well,
>> Speaker 2: I think it's about right now where what we can handle. I mean, we don't want commit to too much, because when you commit to too many boxes, that means you can't pick enough that day.
[00:23:50]
We try to pick it all that day, and then put it in the boxes. And that's the reason we only do so many, because we don't want to have to pick it the day before. We want it to be fresh, we want when you get that box that day, we want you to know that it's picked that morning.
[00:24:04]
And that's about as fresh as you're gonna get. So that's the concept behind it, so we don't wanna get too big, because if not, we wouldn't have time to pick, time to put in the box. So that's the concept behind it.
>> Speaker 1: You'd have to store it and then-
[00:24:19]
>> Speaker 2: Right, and that's against what we're-
>> Speaker 1: Trying to do.
>> Speaker 2: Trying to accomplish here.
>> Speaker 1: Hey, I guess, some general questions.
>> Speaker 3: [INAUDIBLE]
>> Speaker 1: Community, how are the relations with the farm and everything with the community interactions, involvement?
>> Speaker 2: I hope we're okay with the community, I know people enjoy seeing our peach trees bloom.
[00:24:43]
A lot of people like to come out and take pictures in our peach trees and we help with the Strawberry Festival, it's the first weekend in May of every year. That's a big hit here in town, we have some between 40 and 60,000 people depending on the weather show up for Strawberry Festival.
[00:25:03]
>> Speaker 1: Actually, I think we went last year, yes, we went.
>> Speaker 2: And so, that's always a big hit, but, yeah, I think overall, people enjoy seeing us passing by and seeing stuff growing instead of parking lots and buildings. I think they enjoy seeing us out working in the fields while they're sitting and chatting.
[00:25:30]
#VALUE!#VALUE!#VALUE!
>> Speaker 1: That? Definitely, I think that brings out that if they know your stuff is grown here locally.
>> Speaker 2: Yeah.
>> Speaker 1: It is fresh [CROSSTALK]-
>> Speaker 2: Right.
>> Speaker 1: And I think [INAUDIBLE] people really-
>> Speaker 2: Right, I agree.
>> Speaker 1: Appreciate that, where do you see Springs Farm in say, five to ten years?
[00:25:54]
>> Speaker 2: Wow, well,
>> Speaker 2: I don't know, I think we're gonna do some unique things. We may have to do some stuff in greenhouse stuff, just because this prop across the road here from us, they're gonna be putting a hospital there. We've been growing peach trees over there for the last 30 years.
[00:26:16]
So that's gonna be gone, so now, my peach numbers are gonna go down. But a lot of times, what we've started doing is planting the peach trees closer together and pruning them in a different method, so we can get more trees per acre. So stuff like that is what we probably do in the future.
[00:26:42]
>> Speaker 1: Are those kind of like new methods, different way of planting that developed?
>> Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's where we're headed, because we only have so much land that we can use, but the family's been gracious. We have, we do have some peaches and strawberries on the Greenway.
[00:27:03]
So we do work with the Greenway on that, of course, that land will be here forever, that's not going anywhere. So but it's gonna change and not sure how too much, but I think it's definitely gonna have to change.
>> Speaker 1: What is an aspect of farming that most people don't think about or you think is misunderstood by people especially myself who aren't farmers?
[00:27:34]
>> Speaker 2: I talked to a farmer this morning and we just again talking about the weather and fuel prices go up, labor goes up, insurance goes up, everything goes up. But our commodity, we just can't get enough for it sometimes. I mean, you can only get so much for a cucumber, you can only get so much for a tomato.
[00:27:56]
The consumer's only gonna pay so much. So in a situation, we're in a situation where we have to do things smarter and better, if we're gonna make it. And I think,
>> Speaker 2: Everything goes up, it seems like we just can't get the prices we need for our commodities that we grow.
[00:28:22]
Just, I mean, for some reason we just capped it, there's a cap on it people are not gonna pay. So-
>> Speaker 4: [INAUDIBLE]
>> Speaker 2: See, I'm competing with Earth Fair. Fresh markets, and Harris Teeter, and those folks buy train-loads of tomatoes. Not truck loads, they buy train loads, you know, so their pricing's better, so they can sell, and then you come down here where your prices are too high.
[00:28:51]
I know I picked mine this morning, and then I went into Harris Teeter, and those guys picked theirs. So it's hard to educate the consumer about what we're trying to do with our prices. And like I said, everything's going up, it seems like I get so much for a cucumber and squash.
[00:29:12]
So that's the struggle we have, is trying to break even or make money on this stuff. And then, again, back to the weather, you've got to deal with the weather, if we're picking strawberries, it sits in the rain. And those things sitting there in the rain, you got to pick them, get them out of the field, but you can't sell them 'cause they're mush.
[00:29:36]
But still cost me the same to get them out of the field, but I didn't get them to the market. So people have a, I don't think they understand how, what we deal with every day the weather and everything that goes on.
>> Speaker 1: Given all this adversity, what advice would you give to somebody that wanted to start farming say somebody's dream?
[00:30:01]
They quit their day job and go buy a farm and start.
>> Speaker 2: I wouldn't discourage them, I would just say you need a plan, and before we plan anything, we know where we're going with it. It's got a place, I don't grow stuff, and then try to, hey, you want a watermelon?
[00:30:20]
When I grow it, I know where it's going. I've already got it sold or I've got it, I know it's going to this store or that store. So no, I wouldn't discourage anybody, because we have to keep this industry going. But if I was starting out, I would definitely have a good plan and it better be a good plan.
[00:30:43]
#VALUE!#VALUE!#VALUE!
>> Speaker 1: You just got to compete.
>> Speaker 2: You just got to compete, and again, just back to the price and how much can you put out there versus what you're gonna get.
>> Speaker 1: Yeah, I was talking to another actually recently get into it, he has a day job, but he's trying, he's talking about it.
[00:31:07]
He's got chicken's, and he's got laying chickens, and he's got eating chickens, and then he's thinking about starting planting, he had a small garden, he's expanding it, when his dream is to eventually live off on what he makes on the farm.
>> Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just have a good plan.
[00:31:31]
>> Speaker 1: Is there anything, I mean, we haven't touched on you'd like to add or one final thing you'd like to talk about or?
>> Speaker 2: No, just the close family has, it's a genuine pleasure to work for them, they're good people. They understand about the weather and they understand ups and downs, because they've been in it since the 30s.
[00:31:58]
And so, they're very understanding, and they're a super family to work for, and they're very gracious.
>> Speaker 1: And this is the Springs family?
>> Speaker 2: This is the Springs family, yeah.
>> Speaker 1: So it's been since the 1930s they've-
>> Speaker 2: They've been growing peaches, and vegetables, and everything on this land around Fort Mill since the 30s, so.
[00:32:21]
>> Speaker 1: Did they start with just peaches or?
>> Speaker 2: They started with a dairy.
>> Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right, you said that-
>> Speaker 2: Matter of fact, my dad bought some cows from Miss Klauses' dad back in,
>> Speaker 2: Early 60s, but, yeah, they started out peaches, and cattle, and dairy, and then they went to beef cattle.
[00:32:46]
And then they went from there to strawberries to just different commodities trying to keep things going.
>> Speaker 1: And actually think about something else too, seeing a lot of the farms are opening their farms to the public for tours.
>> Speaker 2: Agri tourist.
>> Speaker 1: Yeah.
>> Speaker 2: Agri tourism is a big industry, we would love to do more that, but just because of the way we're set up, we're all scattered all over town, so to speak.
[00:33:16]
We don’t have quote, the old farm house and old farm building that grandad had and all that, like a lot of these people have that do agri tourism. So we do some, we take field trips and stuff on strawberries and all, but we're just not set up to.
[00:33:32]
But it is a big industry and a lot of people like that, cuz a lot of people our age can remember going back to their grandparents parent's farm or something somewhere, and they want to take their kids and so, that's a big industry. I wish we were set up more to do more agri tourism, because it's a great teaching tool and it's good way to have good clean fun.
[00:33:56]
>> Speaker 1: Sounds like it's also a good way also for another revenue stream.
>> Speaker 2: Yeah, most deaf to-
>> Speaker 1: To help maybe makeup where they can't get the prices has been seeing a lot of that.
>> Speaker 2: And a lot of of farms and I are going pumpkins and stuff, trying to take it on into the fall.
[00:34:20]
And that's where a lot of agri tour, a lot of agri tour comes in pumpkin patches and stuff. So it's just another way of trying to get a stream of revenue, correct?
>> Speaker 1: I've got a question for you about pumpkins and getting pollinated. I tried to grow some pumpkins, and they flowered, and everything.
[00:34:41]
And then they withered, and I never got a pumpkin, what's-
>> Speaker 2: Do you have a deer problem or anything? Because one problem I have with pumpkins is the deer would eat your blooms. They loved the blooms and the deer eat the blooms. Or you could have downy mildew is real tough on pumpkins, that's just a disease that gets in them.
[00:35:06]
>> Speaker 1: That might've been it, yeah, cuz it was in a fenced area, so it couldn't have been deer, yeah.
>> Speaker 2: Okay, well, it's probably a disease that got in them and they're a tough one to grow in this area.
>> Speaker 1: Because I was told about well they didn't get pollinated was the problem.
[00:35:22]
And I wasn't sure if that was whether or maybe it was something else.
>> Speaker 2: I don't know, I think there's enough bees still around that we've never had a problem with that. So we might've had some disease come in, but you could have a disease in the soil.
[00:35:35]
It wouldn't be prevalent in the plant, but you could have a disease in the soil to kill the root system, and so.
>> Speaker 1: What would be the lowest maintenance crop that you grow, in other words needs the least attention?
>> Speaker 2: But produces the most income?
>> Speaker 1: Yeah, from the seed to the harvesting.
[00:35:54]
>> Speaker 2: I would probably say those peppers.
>> Speaker 2: Cuz they're a pretty hardy plant, I would say those peppers probably strawberries, or you have to plant those guys in October, so you get a baby seedling about winter. You can't spray anything to kill weeds, because what'll kill weeds will kill your strawberry plants, so strawberry plants are a very, very expensive crop to grow.
[00:36:26]
But I would probably say on the farm right now probably peppers.
>> Speaker 1: Peppers.
>> Speaker 2: Probably peppers, yeah.
>> Speaker 1: Do you have anything else you'd like to add?
>> Speaker 2: No, I just appreciate y'all coming down, it's been nice meeting y'all.
>> Speaker 1: No, we appreciate it.
>> Speaker 2: It's been good.
[00:36:41]
>> Speaker 1: We appreciate your time and like I said, we knew you were here, but we didn't realize all the other things. And you've educated us on some of the stuff that you do here.
>> Speaker 2: Well, I appreciate it, I try not to,
>> Speaker 2: Turn people away or anything if they wanna talk about the farm.
[00:37:00]
I always like to talk about the farm, what we got going on. I know that a lot of times, those news reporters will come down out of Charlotte, cuz we're just here right off the interstate. And a lot of times they'll come down, doom and gloom, you lost your crop.
[00:37:19]
But I always talk to them without careful what they say.
>> Speaker 1: Our project's an optimistic one, we're trying to find out what the needs are. We're gonna, first the world histories that we collect, and see what we come up with. And see what people say their needs are and everything, and we're gonna post a website.
[00:37:37]
And a lot of these will be available in the school library too, if people are researching.
>> Speaker 2: Good.
>> Speaker 1: Farming and things. But do you have anybody else you know that would be good for an interview.
>> Speaker 2: Sam Hall at Bush-N-Vine over in York, South Carolina. I can give you Sam's information.
[00:37:56]
>> Speaker 1: Okay.
>> Speaker 1: What'd you say the name,
>> Speaker 2: Sam, S-A-M Hall.
>> Speaker 1: Okay.
>> Speaker 5: Bush-N-Vine.
>> Speaker 2: Bush-N-Vine. Bush and vine, okay.
>> Speaker 2: Let's try 803.
>> Speaker 1: Okay.
>> Speaker 2: Six, two, seven, five, five, four, five.
>> Speaker 1: Okay, well, I really appreciate that.
>> Speaker 2: And tell Sam you talked to me.
[00:38:41]
>> Speaker 1: Okay.
>> Speaker 2: Or you, just tell him you talked to me and that I said, I encouraged him to sit down with you. It's a good experience, tell him that.
>> Speaker 1: I appreciate your time.
>> Speaker 2: Yeah.
>> Speaker 1: All I need, if you could, ask you to sign a release, one for the class and one for the library.
[00:39:02]
>> Speaker 2: Okay, yeah.
>> Speaker 1: That's okay for us to use an audio tape in our research?
>> Speaker 2: Okay, that's fine.
>> Speaker 1: Okay, I appreciate it.
>> Speaker 2: All right.
Tega Hills Farm - Mark and Mindy Robinson
| Time | Subject |
| 0:00:14 | Set up/Empty air |
| 0:00:15 | Introduction |
| 0:01:03 | Mark Robinson introduction and brief recollection of buying Tega Hills Farm |
| 0:03:57 | Mindy Robinson introduction and growing up on a farm |
| 0:05:43 | Newly married; “Wouldn’t it be cool to own a farm?” |
| 0:07:13 | Coming in at the forefront of interest in eating local food |
| 0:07:59 | Greenhouses as year-round income; Mindy persuades Matthews Community Farmer’s Market to remain open throughout the year |
| 0:10:20 | Types of farms in the surrounding Charlotte area and marketability |
| 0:12:00 | Customers and chefs like to know the people behind the produce |
| 0:13:52 | How Mark and Mindy met and came to Fort Mill, SC |
| 0:16:31 | Their process behind finding a farm to purchase |
| 0:20:33 | Attending NC State conference on aquaculture |
| 0:21:05 | Original pitch to community farming at Baxter Village |
| 0:21:55 | Figuring out how to run a greenhouse |
| 0:23:44 | Tega Hills Farm before their purchase |
| 0:27:57 | Growing tomatoes year round |
| 0:29:38 | Experimenting with growing and selling lettuce |
| 0:31:10 | Diversifying crops and finding niche markets |
| 0:32:48 | Micro greens and becoming profitable; a chef approaches |
| 0:36:42 | Growing and selling squash blossoms, edible flowers |
| 0:38:27 | Growing, selling, and delivering a better product |
| 0:40:21 | Total greenhouses and farm employees |
| 0:44:15 | Restaurants buying from Tega Hills Farm |
| 0:46:52 | Never advertised; all word-of-mouth |
| 0:50:27 | Not growing certain types of produce because of overall profitability |
| 0:51:27 | Courting higher-end, “white table cloth” restaurants |
| 0:52:57 | Production volume and hiring the right people |
| 0:54:51 | Small farm; can’t sustain if employees are paid a living wage ($15/hr) |
| 0:58:48 | Urbanization, grocery stores, and impact on Tega Hills Farm |
| 1:04:14 | Tega Hills Farmstand |
| 1:05:09 | Deciding what to sell at each market |
| 1:08:07 | Selling across state lines from SC to NC |
| 1:10:34 | Food Safety Modernization Act |
| 1:16:05 | Inspector exemptions, SC vs. NC |
| 1:17:13 | Dealing with seasonal weather and climate change with greenhouses |
| 1:26:56 | Greenhouses mitigate weather issues, but do not isolate from them |
| 1:30:14 | Where will Tega Hills Farms be in the next few years? Goals, ambitions, etc. |
| 1:30:42 | Improve the Farmstand and increase year round sales |
| 1:32:22 | The emotional thoughts on continuing the farm after Mark and Mindy pass |
| 1:36:25 | Getting to know their community neighbors in hopes someone will continue the legacy |
| 1:37:41 | Mark wants to try growing artichokes |
| 1:41:07 | Mark and Mindy: A good partnership |
| 1:41:34 | Staff is an extended family. Tega Hills Farm is a family that cares about each other |
| 1:43:56 | Conclusion and closing remarks; TegaHillsFarm.com |
[00:00:07]
>> [INAUDIBLE]
>> Mike Gregory: All right, so this is Mike Gregory, I'm a graduate student at UNC Charlotte in the History Department. And I'm here with Mark and Mindy Robinson, the owners of Tigga Hill Farms in Fort Mill, South Carolina. It's about a two-acre farm and they provide produce at Matthews Community Farmers Market and Charlotte Regional Farmers Market, as well as a couple of food hubs and grocery stores in the local area, as well as Charlotte.
[00:00:45]
Happy to interview the two of you today. So we like to, let's start with Mark, since he won the democratic process to figure out who was going to introduce themselves first. So if he could just tell us your name and a little bit about your background and we'll go from there.
[00:01:04]
>> Mark Robinson: My name is Mark Robinson.
>> Mark Robinson: My background, I grew up on a farm in Ohio, that's my main farming experience. And through a convoluted,
>> Mark Robinson: Journey of education and jobs which would include college student services and working for a healthcare company. To being a systems administrator, just before we had the opportunity to buy the farm here.
[00:01:48]
So working with software and then company wanted to move. They wanted us go to Baltimore, we said no. And stopped by and talk to the owners of this property at the time in 1999. And this, [COUGH] half of those two acres was empty. And we offered, we wanted to see if we could lease it from them.
[00:02:17]
>> Mark Robinson: And right off the bat, they said no, but we'll sell you the whole thing. So we ended up on March 15th, 1999, so we're three days past 20 years. And we've bought the farm, which is not, [LAUGH] is not untrue. So anyway, we bought the farm, really struggled hard for the next four years.
[00:02:48]
Part of that had to do with getting business and having a business experience. Being under finance which is almost always the case. And we were hit with, that we were hit by that fall, natural gas prices went from $0.50 a therm to $0.75. So it increased by,
>> Mark Robinson: What-
[00:03:19]
>> Mindy Robinson: Half a can as much.
>> Mark Robinson: Half a can as much. And that really, we were, at the time, they were growing all-hydroponic tomatoes. And the big thing was to have ripe tomatoes by March 15th. And it just, the amount of heat that takes to raise them through the winter times is just phenomenal.
[00:03:39]
>> Mike Gregory: Yep.
>> Mark Robinson: Anyway, that's how we got started here. There's a variety of other things many can mention, but that's a good introduction to me.
>> Mike Gregory: Cool.
>> Mark Robinson: Mindy, tell us a little bit about yourself.
>> Mindy Robinson: Well, I grew up in Northeast Tennessee, and I grew up on the edge of my grandfather's farming at the time.
[00:04:04]
By the time I was growing up, he only had about 100 acres and he grew mostly cattle. That's also tobacco country, so he had some tobacco. And I grew up with my older brothers more involved with his farm because they were required to do things like sucker and top tobacco and things like that.
[00:04:22]
My dad did not farm with his father, but he was still right there and available to help his dad when he needed help. So I guess I just grew up in a very rural area. We had a big garden, there were six children in my family, I knew the difference between a bloom and a piece of fruit and a root and which one went which direction.
[00:04:44]
So I think Mark and I both appreciated having grown up in that kind of community. I know Mark talks about when he was growing up, his dad would sort of loan him and his brother out to the neighboring farms to help when it was time to hay. And my brothers did the same thing, they just sort of made the route and the expectation was, everybody came to your house.
[00:05:08]
The day was your turn to hay, and no money was exchanged, it was just free child-labor.
>> Mark Robinson: Lot of awesome lunches.
>> Mindy Robinson: [LAUGH] Yeah, you got fed well. So I was used to that way of living. I grew up working in everybody's gardens. Again, my mom would let me out and I'd go help my aunt.
[00:05:28]
And then my aunts would come up and help us. Or, we'd call each other when snapping [INAUDIBLE] will just come down and help. And so I just understood, so as Mark and I courted, and were married and nearly started in our marriage life, we always had that idea, wouldn't it be cool to have a farm?
[00:05:45]
And be able to raise our children in that atmosphere of knowing that what they contributed really made a difference in the day to day life of our family. So when Mark's job was sort of in between jobs and his parents had money to loan us, and this opportunity came up.
[00:06:06]
We were already mindset-wise oriented toward, let's have a farm. But around here it's sort of hard to find farmland unless you live way far out or something like that.
>> Mark Robinson: Even 20 years ago.
>> Mindy Robinson: Yeah, even 20 years ago.
>> Mark Robinson: Springs had bought up.
>> Mindy Robinson: Yeah.
>> Mark Robinson: Most everything here.
[00:06:22]
>> Mindy Robinson: Sure, well it's just people are developing it to live in, but they're not developing it to farm on. If you wanna farm around here you usually go to the other side of the lake, and go to Clover. But again that's family land usually, so it's rare that you're gonna buy a big enough piece of land to have a farm that is actually financially viable as a farm.
[00:06:45]
I think a lot of people over there tend to farm on the side. And I saw that a lot when I was growing up, I had I had friends whose parents maybe kept cattle or would run tobacco or would cut hay or something but they had day jobs, too.
[00:06:59]
So it wasn't so much. There were a few people who just farmed, but a lot of people, it was sort of just a side income. That was how I grew, too. So for us, we didn't realize it at the time how novel we were gonna be. But we were sort of at the front end of people getting interested in eating local food.
[00:07:20]
The CSA model was just starting to sorta come out and get some press and things like that. So for instance, when we first started going to farmer's markets, the farmer's markets were only open spring, summer, and fall. They would close by Thanksgiving. And so that left and it wouldn't open until March, so that's December, January, February.
[00:07:40]
That's 4 or 5 months in the winter when it's difficult to have a market. Therefore, what's the point trying to grow something through the winter? So it was, anyway, it was, but now both of the markets we go to are open.
>> Mark Robinson: Well, when we were the-
>> Mindy Robinson: It's changed quite a bit.
[00:07:56]
>> Mark Robinson: And we intentionally looked at greenhouses. The challenge all year round it comes. He didn't want to be bound, it's either wealth or Nothing at all, and a part of Mindy was actually a lot of the driving force [LAUGH]
for Matthew's to go year round because our customers knew that Mindy had a product.
[00:08:25]
And so even when it didn't go year round, many would drive over. Her folks would meet up with her on the market grounds and they'd make a drop, and that was how the winter market started finally. They saw that there was enough farmers doing season extension work, work meaning-
[00:08:54]
>> Mindy Robinson: High tunnels.
>> Mark Robinson: High tunnels.
>> Mindy Robinson: Low tunnels, anything that you can cut.
>> Mark Robinson: Covering their crops, being able to get two months more of production, which you're trying to fill four months, that's not too bad. So I give Mindy the credit for seeing Matthews really go ahead and open up for winter.
[00:09:16]
>> Mindy Robinson: Desperation, [LAUGH] we need more income, so make the push.
>> Mike Gregory: No, it's great. And even we live right across the street from the Matthews Community Farmers' Market. And I've grown up in the area pretty much all my life. We came here, in the Charlotte area, back in 1987, and we used to frequent Matthews.
[00:09:42]
There wasn't anything in the area still. It was Matthews and the closest mall at the time was Monroe. And so if you lived in the Charolotte area, you still had to kind of go to some of these markets. A lot of the grocery stores had not really picked up in the area.
[00:09:56]
And the Matthews Community Farmer's Market, it was very seasonal. Sometimes they were only open two and three hours during the morning on weekends. And even still today they'll run year-round but you still see a lot of more conventional seasonal farming in the area. And so I guess that's-
[00:10:17]
>> Mindy Robinson: Well, and it's interesting, too, because I mean, we're talking about agriculture as a whole, here's a huge variety of the kinds of farms that you can be. So if you drive out of this area, and let's think about this, not, how can I say? I didn't grow up in this area, so I'm speaking about it just from what I've observed.
[00:10:37]
But there are a lot of what we would call a commodity farmer, which are great. People who have acres and acres of land and they grow acres and acres of corn, or acres and acres of fill-in-the-blank, whatever grows well around here. And that is a different farming model than a market farmer, which is what we are, which is people who grow maybe more variety, maybe not as much acreage.
[00:11:00]
But your intention is to sell it as closer as possible to the end user and not have so many middle people, mostly with the idea of capturing more of the profit on that. So for instance, we sell our tomatoes pretty much comparably priced to what someone's gonna buy in the grocery store.
[00:11:20]
I don't go to the market with rock bottom tomato prices because I'm my own middle person. I don't sell it to someone who marks it up who sells it to someone else who marks it up, who gets it to the grocery store. But I also don't have the economies of scale.
[00:11:33]
I don't have picking equipment. I don't have big trucks to move stuff around. I mean, when we walk around, you'll see it's wagons and buckets and what you can carry in your two hands kind of stuff, which on two acres is fine. We don't need a truck to drive from the back of the property to the front of the property with what we've just harvested.
[00:11:54]
That would be ridiculous. But I think the other thing that we hear from our customers at the market, and even from the chef customers we have, is they really do like knowing the face and the people behind the produce. And that's again, sort of us not knowing at the time, but riding the wave of that locally grown interest.
[00:12:17]
That focus, we didn't invent that. That just sort of, well, I know a few of the roots of that. But it just sort of has become something and we happen to be at the front end of it. So by the time that became a buzzword, you want to buy locally grown food, we were like, we've been doing that for ten years.
[00:12:35]
Here we are, which was a good place to be because we had made a lot of the mistakes that you make as a farmer first out. We sort of figured out bookkeeping and keeping up with records and things like that so we were a little bit more stable.
[00:12:50]
So it made us viable. Whereas I've seen a few other farms have started and stopped in those 20 years for various reasons.
>> Mike Gregory: Also you mentioned getting to know, you have your buyers get to know you as farmers, kind of a benefit of having a smaller farm, too.
[00:13:09]
You have a little bit more of an opportunity to be right out there in front.
>> Mark Robinson: Yeah.
>> Mike Gregory: So I have a question. I wanna backtrack just a little bit here. And I know you purchased the farm in 1999. And both of you come from very different states.
[00:13:23]
Mindy, you're from Tennessee and Mark, you're from Ohio. How did you end up in Fort Mill, South Carolina?
>> Mindy Robinson: [LAUGH]
>> Mike Gregory: Give me a little bit of background on that. I wanna hear it so much.
>> Mindy Robinson: Okay, so we met in Montreat, North Carolina. And so Mark's ten years older than I am.
[00:13:38]
Full disclosure here. So he was working at a college and I was a graduating student at the time that we met. So that's not too weird, but anyway. And we end up sort of catching each other's eye and within about a year and a half we got married.
[00:13:54]
Yeah, cuz we met in that summer and we were married by the next summer. So we dated across the mountain because he was working in Montreat, and I had gone back home to live with my parents in Tennessee and continue my education. So anyway, we got married. And then we went through several changes following sort of his jobs.
[00:14:15]
And our last place before we came here we lived in Boone. And I really liked Boone, but his company actually was bought and sold. Well, it's my company. But both of us were working for this company by this time in Boone, and they were bought by a company that wanted to move them down off the mountain and relocate to Charlotte.
[00:14:39]
So that's how we got to this area in general. And when we took that move, Mark continued working for the company and I was expecting our second child by that time. So I took a step out of corporate America, such as it was, and stayed home with the children.
[00:14:56]
And as we were looking in this area, someone that we knew in Boone said, well, you ought to look into Fort Mill because we're from South Carolina and they have really good schools there. And it's just over the line. So that's how we actually ended up in Fort Mill as opposed to Charlotte.
[00:15:12]
We just knew we had children coming up and wanted to have good schools for them.
>> Mike Gregory: [CROSSTALK] I know people who work in the Charlotte area-
>> Mindy Robinson: Yeah, I work down here.
>> Mike Gregory: And commute from Fort Mill.
>> Mindy Robinson: Yeah, and the taxes are better. At the time, we weren't really thinking about that as much.
[00:15:28]
But sure, we're happy about it now, but-
>> Mike Gregory: Gas prices are certainly better [LAUGH].
>> Mindy Robinson: Gas prices are better, you don't have to drive across the state line to get your gas. You just go down around the corner. So our son, who at the time was 3, will be 28 this year, so all of our children have been grown up, gone to school here and been in this area.
[00:15:48]
They consider this home, for sure. So that's basically how. It was a job move that got us to this area. And then so we moved here in 94, and so five years later in 99, I was working with the same company, but that's when the next buyout happened.
[00:16:08]
And they wanted to shift the corporate location to Baltimore. And we said, we're not going there, so stay here.
>> Mike Gregory: So when you came here and you decided you were gonna look to get into farming, were there any other locations that you looked at purchasing prior to settling on this one?
[00:16:28]
Or did you really just find this one and have your eye on it?
>> Mindy Robinson: We drove all around. Do you remember, we used to go out on weekends in the afternoons, we'd go over-
>> Mark Robinson: We used to wear the roads out over the past.
>> Mindy Robinson: Because part of, again, sort of the perfect storm, [LAUGH] Mark had six months of severance, if you can imagine that.
[00:16:49]
He had a month for every [LAUGH] year he worked for the company, which I don't think that happens anymore. So we had this really sweet spot of full income, full benefits, and he didn't have work to go to. I mean, it was, so we took that time. And his parents had just sold their business in Florida and they had money to invest.
[00:17:11]
>> Mark Robinson: Well, I did it. I had worked with my father who started his own corporation. And I worked with him for about two years, and then it had built up and done very well for itself. And ultimately somebody came and bought his business. He made a good bit of money, not,
[00:17:34]
>> Mark Robinson: Nothing outrageous, but then he made the offer to myself, and my brother, and my sister that if any of us wanted to do a business, they would entertain a pitch.
>> Mindy Robinson: So we looked at different business opportunities in the area. Mark had had experience. His uncle had a billiard company and made billiard tables, so he had experience in that.
[00:18:00]
And we sort of looked around Charlotte, and thought, well, with this market, was that something we wanna do? We just entertained different ideas. And then we sort of honed in on the idea, because when we first moved here, we tried to find a piece of property that was big enough to have a small farm with it.
[00:18:15]
And again, the normal neighborhoods around here don't have that kind of. You would have to be out in the country for it. And at the time, it was a little bit more of a price point than we wanted to just have a house on. So now, we had this opportunity, if we could find the right piece of land or whatever, to maybe have a small farm.
[00:18:33]
And I'll have to say this. When we got married, the first magazine we ever-
>> Mark Robinson: [LAUGH]
>> Mindy Robinson: Bought a subscription to was Mother Earth News. I mean, it's just sort of was in our, and I don't wanna say it was in our blood, but it was just like we were oriented to.
[00:18:48]
>> Mark Robinson: Yeah, and we give them an idea in the realm of history what we bought. We had the whole, shoot-
>> Mindy Robinson: Foxfire.
>> Mark Robinson: We bought the whole Foxfire library.
>> Mindy Robinson: Foxfire, I don't know if you're familiar with that, because, yeah.
>> Mark Robinson: Yeah, I mean, we lived in the Foxfire books.
[00:19:08]
>> Mindy Robinson: So definitely a romantic view. We knew from working in it that it's hard work, but we probably still had slightly idealistic views of it. So all of that being said, we looked all over. We went as far as Kings Mountain looking at different, and of course, this was in the days before the Internet.
[00:19:26]
So you would just get the newspaper and see land for sale, and we'd go trekking out to look at it. And we looked at some old greenhouses that were over down 49, 274, down through there. And we scoped those out. And a lot of that property, it was already rezoned for commercial, so it was way out of our price on it.
[00:19:49]
And Mark had been back, I didn't even realize, lots of times people drop by these greenhouses and don't even see him. Because it's a straightaway on the road and people pick up their speed and they focus down the road and they don't even notice them. You'll say what, I live over there where those greenhouse are.
[00:20:05]
And they'll say, there's greenhouses on [INAUDIBLE] road? And these are people who've lived around here for years and they've never been paid attention to them. And so we'd seen them, and came over and talked to the owners at the time and sort of got to know them a little bit.
[00:20:19]
And again, offered that and they said, we'll just sell you the farm. So that just sort of changed our orientation.
>> Mike Gregory: So was there a time maybe where you were looking at more conventional farming or were you always looking for greenhouses for-
>> Mark Robinson: We actually went to a conference that NC State puts on to do aquaculture.
[00:20:44]
>> Mindy Robinson: In Newbern, yeah, we- In New Bern. So we thought about a lot of different things, I would say. I was trying to think, I also remember going over and getting in touch with the people at Springs and making, not a full pitch, but we talked to them about what they would lease us property for.
[00:21:02]
But again, I think that was the idea of doing greenhouse stuff.
>> Mark Robinson: Yeah, Baxter was just starting to be built back then, and we had tied into this idea of a community farm, or CSA. [COUGH] But wondering if we could,
>> Mark Robinson: If they would set aside a green area or whatever to farm for the Baxter community.
[00:21:30]
>> Mindy Robinson: Yeah, and we talked to the guy who was the manager of the Peach Stand at the time.
>> Mark Robinson: Right.
>> Mindy Robinson: And talked to him about, cuz he had land in this area, and about maybe setting up. But I remember distinctly, we had the idea of a greenhouse even then, because his wife was concerned about the view out of her kitchen window, if she'd be looking at a greenhouse.
[00:21:48]
And so anyway, I don't know really how we got the idea, other than, I think, well, I'll say Mark is very, he's like the mechanical, I can do it kind of guy. And I think the idea of having something that's year-round is nice in agriculture, because you got a little bit a buffer against crop failure.
[00:22:13]
Because you can always do something in the winter. You don't have to get all your money in that little spring and summer window. But I think for Mark, it didn't occur to him that he couldn't figure out how to run a greenhouse from a mechanical kind of point of view.
[00:22:31]
And it didn't occur to me that he couldn't either, so sure, we can do that. [LAUGH]
>> Mike Gregory: Trial by fire is a little fun.
>> Mindy Robinson: Yeah, I mean, we didn't even know it was trial by fire [LAUGH].
>> Mark Robinson: We actually went and took a course on raising greenhouse tomatoes.
[00:22:45]
>> Mindy Robinson: But we did that after we bought the farm.
>> Mark Robinson: Yeah.
>> Mindy Robinson: Yeah, so we were already bought in by then.
>> Mark Robinson: Yeah.
>> Mike Gregory: Where did you take the course?
>> Mindy Robinson: It's in Ohio.
>> Mike Gregory: Northeast Ohio.
>> Mindy Robinson: Yeah, there's a company called Crop King, and they-
>> Mark Robinson: They still sell packages.
[00:23:06]
>> Mindy Robinson: They sell greenhouse packages. They'll set you up with all of the internal workings of a greenhouse. They'll do training. They have a certain marketing program, if you wanna buy into it. And so, they do sort of a three-day weekend to try to pitch their products, and that kinda stuff.
[00:23:22]
But it's also a pretty good, a little tiny taste of the hands-on that it takes to grow things in a greenhouse. So we just went up and took that course.
>> Mike Gregory: So what was Teagan Hills Farm like prior to your purchase of it? And maybe how did you change the model around or what kind of produce do you do now maybe that they didn't before?
[00:23:42]
Just talk to me about that.
>> Mindy Robinson: Well, the farm was originally started in the early 70s, and I can't give you an actual date, because we weren't here to know it then. And it was started by a gentleman who was a chemist at Celanese. And my understanding is that he lived in Charlotte, of course, there's a Celanese or there was a Celanese plant in Rock Hill.
[00:24:02]
And the story that was handed down to us, this is good oral history, right?
>> Mark Robinson: [LAUGH]
>> Mindy Robinson: Is that he was on a flight back from Brazil And he picked up one of those inflight magazines, and it had an articles about hydroponic tomatoes in it. And if you think, everybody always says, I've seen something like this at Disney World.
[00:24:22]
So, whatever, Epcot Center, is that what that is?
>> Mark Robinson: Yep, that's it.
>> Mindy Robinson: And so, there was an article there, and this is my intersection with that. I think with him having been a chemist, he was probably intrigued by the chemistry of hydroponics because the idea with that is that you are mimicking ideal soil conditions and soil nutrients.
[00:24:41]
And so somehow or another he acquired this land and put up the three original greenhouses and some of the sheds. And there's a couple of sheds that still exist from that. And he evidently had some connections with folks in Charlotte because he would grow an early spring crop of tomatoes.
[00:25:00]
As Mark said, he would have them picking by the middle of March. And he mostly sold into the Reid's grocery store market, and at the time that was over on,
>> Mark Robinson: What is that?
>> Mindy Robinson: It was on Providence at that time, and it's different, it's a slightly different location now.
[00:25:18]
And I don't know if he just knew those folks or if he just went and pitched it to them.
>> Mark Robinson: And what was it, Black Cockerel or who's the hardware? [CROSSTALK]
>> Mindy Robinson: Providence Hardware, he also would sell some tomatoes to Providence Hardware. So he had those two major accounts who would buy in bulk.
[00:25:35]
And then he, somehow, developed out here a base of customers who would commit. They committed verbally, not with their money. [LAUGH] They would commit at the beginning of the spring to stopping every week and buying either a 5 or a $10 bag of tomatoes. So that let him sort of know where his overage was gonna go.
[00:25:57]
The main customers were the Reid's grocery and the hardware store, and then, these people here, the farm, he committed to having enough for them to pick up their $5 bag. And that was just, it was a little community event, they'd stop either Friday after dinner, Saturday morning, and pick up their bag and pay for it.
[00:26:14]
Then, what he didn't do is he didn't collect the money upfront. Now, as a business now, I would collect all the money [LAUGH] up front because we tried to run with that model for a couple of years and part of it the customer base was literally aging and dying.
[00:26:30]
And so I know I had at least two or three instances where somebody would come up in the spring and say, well, daddy died over the winter, but could I still get his $10 bag every week? They wanted [LAUGH] this legacy of the $10 bag. But eventually, for us, that model didn't work because not enough people actually came and I didn't have any money.
[00:26:49]
They had no skin in the game. So if they didn't stop one weekend and I held their bags, it hurt me but it didn't hurt them. [SOUND] I need to take this real quick.
>> Mike Gregory: Go right ahead.
>> Mindy Robinson: Okay, hi Betsy.
>> [INAUDIBLE]
>> Mark Robinson: So we actually ended up with everything that was growing here on the farm at the time was hydroponic tomatoes.
[00:27:18]
It was a mono crop, I mean-
>> Mindy Robinson: So, but what we tried first was, so the second owner bought that and used it definitely as just a secondary income. Her husband had a full time job and he had benefits. And Mr. Waller, the original guy, was still a chemist.
[00:27:37]
And this was definitely just a secondary, almost a hobby for him, I would say. And so, when we bought it, we bought it with the idea of having year-round crops and transitioning it to becoming profitable enough for our family to make their living at it, to support our family with it.
[00:27:57]
And so the first thing that we did was try to grow tomatoes year round.
>> Mark Robinson: We were living in Tiggy at that time, so.
>> Mindy Robinson: Yeah, and so that first crop, in fact that first year usually the woman who owned it before us would have taken that tomato vines down in the first of July.
[00:28:18]
And she would have probably not even come back over to this property for three or four months cuz she was done with it for a while. And then she would start it up again in November with planting the seeds and doing transplants and things. But we push that first crop later into the year, trying to see, can we sell them, will people still stop and get them?
[00:28:36]
Well, part of the problem you run into is everybody's Uncle Joe has free tomatoes starting in July around here. That's when the field tomatoes are coming in, and the vines are getting old. There's a good reason to take them out than if you're doing that model. So anyway, we tried the next couple of years to just grow tomatoes and struggled from the point of view of not growing them well, having markets that weren't really reliable.
[00:29:09]
So we would have tomatoes that we had to throw away because nobody bought them. As Mark said earlier, trying to grow them through the winter and have them to harvest during the winter is really difficult. Tomatoes just like to have their their roots at 65 degrees and that's really expensive if you're heating with natural gas and a greenhouse to try to keep.
[00:29:28]
Heat rises [LAUGH] so it may be hot up there, but down at the root zone where they need it, it's not gonna be. And so I would say within the first 18 months you started experimenting with lettuce and troughs. Is that accurate, do you think?
>> Mark Robinson: We would have had the PVC.
[00:29:46]
>> Mindy Robinson: Yeah, in the- Gutters. In the gutters, yeah, in some sort of gutter system.
>> Mark Robinson: [INAUDIBLE]
>> Mindy Robinson: Yeah, so Mark pretty quickly started experimenting with growing lettuce in different kinds of systems. And lettuce is a cool weather crop, so it's good to grow during the fall, winter, and the spring.
[00:30:04]
Just as something extra to have to try to offer and, again, we were still thinking grocery store and people stopping to buy here. And we went to some farmers' markets. I know the first time I took lettuce to the farmers' market, I was only charging $1.25 a head, and somebody wanted two heads and she handed me $3.
[00:30:24]
And I didn't immediately give her $0.50, she said, don't worry about it. It's like, okay, and I just pulled all my signs in and change them to $1.50 a head. And put them back out [LAUGH] cuz I thought, obviously, I can sell them for $1 50 and that's not a problem.
[00:30:37]
We sell them for more than that now. But it was just sort of like learn as you go, what will the market sustain and we did so many different things. We've grown beans and peas and had another baby along the way and, anyway, this conversation could go lots of different directions at this point.
[00:31:02]
But that's basically, so we started with the tomatoes, thought that we were gonna be the tomato king and queen of this area. And within the first 18 months started diversifying and that became our new business models. To try to find niche markets that were not being met, but that we could fulfill because we have these greenhouses and we can grown things year round.
[00:31:23]
So as we would see things, and that's when like cooking shows became more popular, I think 20 years ago. You're a little bit younger than me, but there wasn't anything but maybe PBS and The Frugal Gourmet on television. But I know, Food Channel exploded.
>> Mark Robinson: [INAUDIBLE]
>> Mindy Robinson: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
[00:31:42]
>> Mark Robinson: [INAUDIBLE] [LAUGH]
>> Mindy Robinson: Yeah, yeah, but all this exploded and so you could see stuff that you've never seen before. It's like, well, can we grow that? So a few years into it, so I mark my time in my life by children being born [LAUGH] and major moves.
[00:32:01]
So we moved over here, put this house on this property in 2002, and our third child was born a few months later. And so, by the time Martha was born, we were still growing lettuce in NFT systems. Because I can remember having her in her baby backpack and the guys were harvesting it and bringing it in for us to pack it for the market.
[00:32:25]
I can remember that so that's that's why I have that picture in my head. But we were starting to transition within the next year after she was born, we moved to the deep tank. When we moved to the deep tank system with lettuce, which is a different way of growing it ,it's just more stable.
[00:32:41]
And the year that she was a baby, we started growing microgreens. So she's 16 now, so we've been growing the microgreens for about 16 years now this summer.
>> Mark Robinson: And that, microgreens gave us the opportunity to be truly profitable.
>> Mindy Robinson: Yeah, because it gave us a product that, and the reason we started growing microgreens, so this is your story.
[00:33:07]
Mark was at, so by that time, that summer, we had been allowed, it was the first year we were vendors at the Matthews Market, because you have to apply early, and you get vetted and they come out and visit your farm and stuff like that. So, by then, we had lettuce, we had beans, we were growing cucumbers, we had squash.
[00:33:28]
We had several different kind of things to try to have like this diversity of produce. Part of the idea was somebody may stop for one thing at the market, but they'll buy other things. The other thing is if something dies, you've got other things that are not dying so you can sort of, it's a buffer.
[00:33:45]
Just like with any business and a varied product line, more than one kind of shirt on the rack.
>> Mark Robinson: [LAUGH]
>> Mindy Robinson: And so Mark was at the Yorkmont Market, and I would load up and take things to the Matthews Market that spring and summer. And he was selling lettuce and beans and all the stuff.
[00:34:03]
And he had a chef stop and say hey, can you grow microbasil for me? I'm ordering it, I'm having to have it, pay to have it shipped in overnight. I pay just as much for shipping as it do for the product, and when I get here, it's no good, and I have to pay somebody to pick through it and get the bad stuff out of it so I can use half of what I've ordered.
[00:34:22]
Can you grow microbasil? And Mark said, well, I'll give it a try. So we had an acquaintance, another farmer who lived up in Cherryville, North Carolina, who was getting out of his greenhouse business and he had tried growing microgreens. I didn't even know what they were, but Mark knew what they were, and he had a lot of seed on hand that he sold us at a discounted price.
[00:34:42]
And Mark had some teenage guys who were working for him that summer who were real sharp intellectually, and so they set up trials. And they're like, per square inch, how much seed do we put on it? How long do we let it grow? [CROSSTALK] Different things, they grew it several different ways on these little, like two by two inch squares and sort of settled in a way to grow it that seemed to work best.
[00:35:10]
So about two months after that guy approached Mark, Mark still had his card. He called him up and went back in with a selection of microgreens. And they sat around and ate them and made an order. And he said, you ought to go talk to these, I think they gave him about five references.
[00:35:26]
They said you should go talk to these guys. They would be interested in microgreens from a local grower, and Mark went over to the mat store, still over there Kings Drive, or whatever that is. Cuz again, this is before smartphones, picked up, found a phonebook, found the address, and went and knocked on the back door of these different restaurants with the other samples that he had on hand, and just, and they ordered some stuff.
[00:35:49]
And that was the beginning of us having restaurant businesses. But restaurants gave us year round customers, and that was huge because we still had this gap in the fall, as far as our customers. And it gave us a year round product with microgreens cuz you can grow that year round if you get good at it.
[00:36:07]
And then over time, I would say it took about another year, to year and a half, the chefs would say, well, do you have anything else? And we'd say lettuce, tomatoes, or they would see us at the farmers market and they would stand there at the table and say, I didn't know I could get lettuce from you.
[00:36:23]
Do you have enough let us to bring it to the restaurant the next time you bring microgreens? Yes, we can do that. So, now microgreens are still about 50% of our restaurant sales, but the rest of it is lettuce and other produce that we grow.
>> Mark Robinson: And we have certain niche, the other solid commodity that we sell to-
[00:36:46]
>> Mike Gregory: [COUGH]
>> Mark Robinson: Restaurants are squash blossoms. We sell between eight and 10,000.
>> Mike Gregory: Wow.
>> Mark Robinson: Squash blossoms a year here.
>> Mindy Robinson: It's just a nice little extra.
>> Mark Robinson: Well, and edible flowers.
>> Mindy Robinson: Yeah.
>> Mark Robinson: It's worth.
>> Mindy Robinson: Yeah.
>> Mark Robinson: The squash we grow, we have an heirloom Italian variety that actually produces that many blooms.
[00:37:16]
On a 40 foot row, in first part of April, [CROSSTALK] to the end of October, and it'll produce a ten thousand blooms, that about, and then we do edible flowers, and that generates comparable, about the same.
>> Mindy Robinson: For no more work than they are, it's a nice little extra, yeah.
[00:37:41]
So it's funny, from a business point of view, where do you make your profit? Well, if I took out squash blossoms, I wouldn't have that chunk, or if I took out this, I wouldn't have that chunk. And you can drill down and say, well, I don't make that much money on it, but in the end, you add up all those things and you get probability.
[00:37:55]
>> Mark Robinson: But what happens is with residents, microgreens are our anchor in these restaurants. And our services, we have been conscious, when we first starting out from the business model, these guys had been ordering from either the east or west coast to get microgreens. They would have to have them shipped in overnight.
[00:38:21]
They were paying over $16 a pound for a pound of beet microgreens, and we were basically offering them for half that amount. The shelf-life was double what they were getting for something that had been shipped overnight, so it was a better product. We were very conscientious. So the arrangement of, we delivered on Tuesdays when we first started out, hoping that, no, we delivered on Fridays when we first started out that folks who use their microgreens over the weekend, over the whole week.
[00:39:03]
We saw that they were trying to hold a product that wasn't holding, so we decided to add another delivery day. That immediately increased their sales by 20%. They're holding back from using them, and then we told them look, don't you order more than what four days can sustain?
[00:39:27]
>> Mindy Robinson: So most of our customers now order twice a week. They know they're gonna get it as fresh. They don't have to, like Mark said, they don't have to use less product to try and make it last for a week. Cuz they know they're gonna get another delivery, so they are a little bit more-
[00:39:42]
>> Mark Robinson: But then, with each little niche that we do, like squash blossoms, why we've been doing for years, other growers know we do it, and they have squash plants, why they're not doing squash blossoms? I have no idea.
>> Mindy Robinson: Because it's a pain to go out and pick them everyday.
[00:40:00]
I know exactly why they're not doing squash blossoms.
>> Mark Robinson: [LAUGH]
>> Mindy Robinson: But anyway, when squash blossom season starts, that's when my bookkeeping. System usually takes a hit, because there's only so much time in the day.
>> Mark Robinson: Yeah.
>> Mindy Robinson: It's a little bit extra, it's not that much extra but it's enough, my margins.
[00:40:20]
>> Mike Gregory: You said you have how many green houses?
>> Mindy Robinson: I say five, one of those is technically a high tunnel, but we'll say it's a covered controlled environment structure, so essentially five.
>> Mike Gregory: So with all this demand and everything, I believe I remember you saying you have family members help out as well.
[00:40:40]
But you also do employ some help?
>> Mindy Robinson: Yeah.
>> Mike Gregory: So about how many do you have working here, and what all kinda responsibilities are there?
>> Mindy Robinson: We have right now three full-time folks, and then we have, I'm adding up, I should know this better, Pat, and Jennifer, and Kerry.
[00:41:03]
And we have basically four part time folks who all together make up about another two. So about the equivalent of about five to five and a half what we would say FTE, full-time equivalency. And so over time we sort of have a microgreen team, which is two people.
[00:41:26]
One is a full-time, he's here all week and he can sort of keep an eye on things. And then the days we harvest and plant, he's very dedicated to that. And we have a lady who works with him, who harvests and packs the microgreens. So she's still here working today, because she's packing the microgreens right now for the orders.
[00:41:43]
And then I have another crew which I consider to be our lettuce crew, I've got sort of a lead full-time person. And then three part-time gals who work with her, who are harvesting and packing and getting it replanted. So that that whole process is getting taken care of.
[00:42:01]
And they also take care of the greens, things like arugula and kale, or anything that's a green. And then seasonally, which we're getting ready to start and add in and plant right now. Is we'll have peppers and cucumbers and tomatoes and we have a guy who is more Mark's maintenance assistant.
[00:42:19]
And in the season, he ends up doing more of what we call an agricultural, cultural war. So that's not necessarily harvesting, but it's things like checking for bugs, applying, we use organic pesticides. But applying pesticides as they're needed, making sure that the nutrients are right. And that the hydroponic tanks are heat [INAUDIBLE] Mark on that.
[00:42:43]
>> Mark Robinson: Well-trained [CROSSTALK]
>> Mindy Robinson: Yeah, and that's why in the tomatoes, especially, you have to twine the vines of the tomato plants up and clip them up. And you have to pull suckers, so those kinds of things, he's doing that, plus he's helping with the harvest. And then we end up in the summer, usually, hiring at least one or two more just summer employees.
[00:43:06]
To help with that extra production load, because we've got extra harvesting to do and extra packing for the market. So it's a base of about five and, it can swell to about six to seven full time equivalency. Just depending on how I can, it's like a puzzle, you just have to put it together as far as who's available and what they can do.
[00:43:26]
So I wouldn't have to lady the packed microgreens go and mix up feed for the nutrient feed, it's not her thing. But I could have the guy who's mixing up nutrient feed, if he had to, he could go pack microgreens. It just sort of depends on what people do well and what they're trained for.
[00:43:47]
So, for instance, I was gone, I went on a trip a couple weeks ago, of course, Mark was here. But I had to push out some of the stuff that I normally do onto my crew. Because things, where I sort of pick up the slack, I wasn't here to do it, so they had to do that.
[00:44:03]
>> Mike Gregory: Makes sense.
>> Mindy Robinson: Yeah, and so if nobody shows up, then Mark and I get out and get going and that happens occasionally.
>> Mike Gregory: So with the microgreens and having a relationship with some of these restaurants, what sort of restaurants do you sell to?
>> Mindy Robinson: Well, let's see, we sell to Halcyon and Fern, these are like sister restaurants, we sell to Barringtons Good Food.
[00:44:32]
We sell to, Upstream and Mimosa, we sell to Fig Tree, we work with Legion Brewing, we work with Longview Country Club. And we work with Gaston Country Club, we have a couple of restaurants over towards Gastonia. One of them is called Lotus and one of them is called Jia, we work with Lily's, which is down here on 49.
[00:45:02]
We work with the Flipside restaurants here in Fort Mill, let's see Wolfgang Puck in the Phillips Place area, the Reeds grocery stores. I'm going back down, there's two Pure Pizza restaurants in town, there's one on Central. And one up at the Seventh Street Market, we work with them, The Asbury, King's Kitchen, Bentley's on 27th.
[00:45:31]
Also in that Seventh Street market area, there's an Orrman's Cheese and they make sandwiches and stuff, they use our salad greens.
>> Mark Robinson: Luna?
>> Mindy Robinson: Luna's Living Kitchen, let's see, Bistro La Bon which is down Central Avenue. We work with some of the caterers like and Best Impressions, they will get from us.
[00:45:54]
There's two Foxcroft wine shops, there's one in Dilworth and one over in the South Park area, so we work with them.
>> Mindy Robinson: And New South, there's an Oak Steakhouse in the South Park area we work with them.
>> Mark Robinson: Barcelona?
>> Mindy Robinson: Barcelona Wine Bar, just started, you know this better than I do, I'm the one who takes the orders.
[00:46:21]
>> Mark Robinson: Let's see.
>> Mindy Robinson: So I work with them.
>> Mark Robinson: Down to on the river?
>> Mindy Robinson: Which river are you talking about?
>> Mark Robinson: The river down here.
>> Mindy Robinson: The Pump House, yeah, we work with the Pump House, and they have a sister restaurant called Napa on Providence, we work with them.
[00:46:37]
Carpe Diem, we still work with them, I think I hit the major ones right there. That was sort of scattered, I was just trying to picture Charlotte in my head.
>> Mark Robinson: [CROSSTALK] in Valentine except for along right now, so we have never advertised.
>> Mindy Robinson: So that's all word of mouth or what happens, my observation is chefs will sorta come up through the ranks.
[00:47:11]
And they'll go out to another restaurant, or in the case of the like the Foxcroft Wine Bar. They started over in the South Park area, when they did the new location, they just called back and said, hey, we have a new location. Let's get your stuff here, so I got an extra restaurant, just because they grew and so we grew with them.
[00:47:29]
But other times chefs have shifted restaurants or they get to a point where they're buying. They have that privilege of deciding who they are gonna buy from and they'll call back and say. I worked with so and so at this restaurant, but now, I'm over here and I get to choose and I want to work with y'all and get your stuff in.
[00:47:46]
So it's it's been chefs moving around and coming up through the ranks, or again for instance, we started with Barringtons. And now we work with Good Food and because of their sister restaurants under the same ownership kind of thing.
>> Mark Robinson: It never ceases to amaze me how powerful word of mouth is.
[00:48:06]
>> Mindy Robinson: Yes, it's huge and it could work the other way [LAUGH] so even when I've had restaurants who've Who have either closed or who have stopped using our product. When, well, and that's fine if you don't wanna use our stuff anymore. Happy to see you succeed. And if you ever want something again, let me know.
[00:48:30]
If there was anything we did, let us know so we can make it right. I don't think I've ever had anybody say I just don't want your stuff anymore, because it was not good. It was just different menus switched around, that's fine. But yeah, or I've had chefs call me who were new to area and said, well, I've been down talking to so and so and they said I should call you about getting micro-greens or lettuce or squash blossoms or whatever they're interested in.
[00:48:57]
So new guys or gals will come to town and sort of work the circuit and figure out who they want to talk to.
>> Mark Robinson: [CROSSTALK] was Wolfgang Puck. They recruited us literally six months before they ever moved into town. And we actually packaged up a large refrigerated bundle and sent it to New Orleans.
[00:49:23]
>> Mike Gregory: Wow.
>> Mark Robinson: To the kitchens down there, to be able to court that account.
>> Mindy Robinson: I think that was a E2 restaurant we sent it to New Orleans. The Emeril's one?
>> Mark Robinson: That's right.
>> Mindy Robinson: Yeah. That was them.
>> Mark Robinson: It was that Emeril's one.
>> Mindy Robinson: Yeah, I think our Wolfgang Puck was they hired a local chef who we had worked with.
[00:49:40]
Hired him away from another restaurant, and that's how we got that.
>> Mark Robinson: But it was E2. And that one failed. Are they still open?
>> Mindy Robinson: I don't know if they're still open. They stopped working with us after a while, but that. Sometimes it's okay to not have a restaurant customer.
[00:49:57]
Sometimes they're a pain to deliver to. There's other things that make it not a great restaurant, and so there are times when I'm fine to see a customer go. And so, I'm sure that works both ways, too. Maybe they get tired of us showing up in the middle of their lunch service, and they were just like-
[00:50:13]
>> Mark Robinson: Well, and one of the things with micro-greens, and what we found is chefs want what they want when they want it.
>> Mike Gregory: Right.
>> Mark Robinson: And we're good the majority of the time.
>> Mindy Robinson: Yeah, and we can usually nail it.
>> Mark Robinson: Be able to do that.
>> Mindy Robinson: But there are certain things that we don't grow that chefs might want.
[00:50:29]
And for us, it's not profitable, and it's like a menu item. If nobody ever buys the peanut butter and jelly sandwich, you stop keeping the peanut butter and jelly sandwich on the menu. And you don't keep the stuff to make it anymore, because nobody is ever buying it, why waste it?
[00:50:43]
And that's easier in a restaurant than it is in a, if I'm growing a micro-green that never gets ordered and doesn't sell at the farmers' market, I'm just wasting seed and table space. So we've certainly tried things that we could grow, but nobody bought them. And you can only market it so much if it's not attractive enough.
[00:51:02]
Like, micro-scallions, once once a year someone calls me and wants those, and I'll just say no, don't grow them. Used to, but nobody wanted them, so just a waste of time.
>> Mike Gregory: You said that most of these chefs put in weekly orders?
>> Mindy Robinson: Usually twice a week.
>> Mike Gregory: Twice a week, okay.
[00:51:18]
>> Mike Gregory: Especially with the number of restaurants and [COUGH] many of these restaurants are on the higher end of- Well, that's sorta who we court.
>> Mark Robinson: Yeah.
>> Mindy Robinson: We did make a few cold calls initially.
[00:51:37]
We would just look at a new restaurant or we would get a Charlotte Living, magazine publication for Charlotte, and we would go through and look and see who was advertising. Or we would look them up and see how many dollar signs are next. And if it was three and four, then we're like, okay, because they will afford micro-greens.
[00:51:59]
Now, micro-greens are more common and you will see sort of regular, a little bit lower price-point restaurants will use them. And that's great if they want to buy them from us, I am happy to sell them. But we intentionally sort of work with what we would call white table cloth restaurants, originally, yeah.
[00:52:17]
>> Mark Robinson: And the only exception to that rule is we don't even record them. Steakhouses and high end Italian, don't use any.
>> Mindy Robinson: They usually don't use micro-greens. But I mean, sometimes we get calls for lettuce. Like the brewery. We have the Legion brewing account because the chef who is the executive chef that worked with us at another restaurant.
[00:52:42]
And so, once he, even before they were completely open, he was calling us to get lettuce in. And we hadn't worked with him for two years. And then he showed back up and got our lettuce in.
>> Mike Gregory: I'm just impressed with for you to be able to provide that much, to do this new restaurants, as well as to cater to the farmers markets.
[00:53:03]
And also to have some experience on the local grocery stores. That's an impressive amount of volume for a two-acre farm.
>> Mindy Robinson: Which is not-
>> Mike Gregory: [CROSSTALK] greenhouses.
>> Mindy Robinson: And I'll just say, which is not, I mean, we are not growing on two acres, we're growing on between a half and thee-fourths of an acre as far as the actual production area.
[00:53:18]
Cuz our house is sitting on that two acres. And the yard, and things like that, so yeah. Which is-
>> Mark Robinson: But we-
>> Mindy Robinson: I mean, we're very intense-
>> Mark Robinson: We harvest almost 3,000 heads of lettuce a week.
>> Mindy Robinson: Yeah, so again, from a business model, we tend to use words that are more productivity words than we do, I mean, we talk about roots and disease and pests, and things like that.
[00:53:43]
But It's this hopefully fairly streamline process which is why I like, we still got folks on the farm working, but everybody pretty much knows what they're supposed to be doing. And I don't have cameras out there or anything like that, but I'll know at the end of the day if somebody was goofing off because it will be obvious it wasn't done.
[00:54:00]
But everybody who, I mean, and that's been a whole whole, again, a whole other conversation that could not even be about farming. It's just about learning how to choose wisely when you're hiring people, and what motivates people to work, and trying to apply yourself to that and get a good team of people.
[00:54:21]
Cuz we've definitely have made bad choices in hiring folks here. And you put a lot of time into training someone. And then, for whatever reasoning, either their life situation isn't good, or they just have other issues. And they don't stay with you. Well, that's a waste of time.
[00:54:37]
And Mark and I, we've got plenty to do. And so, it's just a matter of, but I'm really happy and thankful and blessed by our [CROSSTALK]
>> Mark Robinson: And you know we don't have the ability, farms are really hard. Well, I don't, farms, unless you own one, and even then there's probably an argument if it provides living wage in the realm of what would be a living wage for instance.
[00:55:03]
If for whatever reason federal government sets minimum wage to $15 an hour- I'm not sure we can sustain that hit.
>> Mindy Robinson: I mean, we would have to let people go and require other people to be more productive somehow. I mean, I would have to, they would have to elevate for us to-
[00:55:23]
>> Mark Robinson: Because, I mean, prices
>> Mark Robinson: We've been growing micro-greens for 16 years. We sold our first mix for $28 a pound.
>> Mindy Robinson: Yeah, and we've increased. It's probably time to go up again.
>> Mark Robinson: Right now, we sell a pound of mix for $38. But you're talking 16 years and we've only gone up by $10.
[00:55:46]
>> Mike Gregory: Right.
>> Mindy Robinson: Yeah so maybe it's time to go up.
>> Mark Robinson: And so, farming as a whole last year, and this is statistically, their inputs went up by 3%, revenue went down by two.
>> Mark Robinson: So the only way to make that up is to farm more land. [LAUGH]
[00:56:07]
>> Mindy Robinson: Yeah, or see if your market can sustain An increased price.
>> Mark Robinson: And a lot of those are commodity.
>> Mindy Robinson: Yeah.
>> Mark Robinson: I mean, commodity farms.
>> Mindy Robinson: That's very broad. Yeah.
>> Mark Robinson: But it's no different. And even now a big trend that they have right now in locally grown is there's a company called Gotham Greens started in New York City.
[00:56:34]
They will build some greenhouses on top of grocery stores. But they actually are putting in a really large greenhouse range just over by Raleigh. So that they can sell into North Carolina and tell everybody their product is locally grown. The problem is they'll probably put in a four or five acre range.
[00:56:59]
And they may employ in the production of that crop two people cuz it's completely automated. Now, packing's a different show. That's where the ladies pulling stuff off the gutters and what have you. But I don't see it as being a big threat to us. All that'll be distributed by truck, and farmers market wise we're still okay.
[00:57:29]
I need to talk with-
>> Mindy Robinson: Is that Bob?
>> Mark Robinson: Hey Bob?
>> Bob: Yes sir?
>> Mark Robinson: Everything went well?
>> Bob: Everything is all watered in and set up.
>> Mark Robinson: Okay I have a favor to ask.
>> Bob: Okay?
>> Mark Robinson: I have water samples that have to go to Clempson. They're in that box.
[00:57:47]
You go down Goldhill to go home?
>> Bob: I think so.
>> Mark Robinson: Can you go that way?
>> Bob: Yup.
>> Mark Robinson: You know where the QT is?
>> Mindy Robinson: Right before you get to 77.
>> Bob: Yeah, over by Publix?
>> Mindy Robinson: Mm-hm.
>> Mark Robinson: Yeah, Publix, QT on this side. On the other side of QT is-
[00:58:09]
>> Mindy Robinson: Called the Postal Route.
>> Bob: Okay, yeah.
>> Mindy Robinson: Have you done that before, have you dropped things off?
>> Mark Robinson: Would you drop this box off?
>> Mindy Robinson: It's got the label on it, and you don't have to, no money needs to exchange hands. If you just take it in and walk straight forward, there's a counter, you just drop it off.
[00:58:22]
>> Mark Robinson: Straight forward, you set it on the counter and walk away.
>> Bob: I can do that.
>> Mindy Robinson: Thank you very much.
>> Mark Robinson: I greatly appreciate it.
>> Mindy Robinson: Let us know if something about that doesn't work out and we will talk you through it.
>> Bob: Okay.
>> Mindy Robinson: Okay, thank you, Bob.
[00:58:32]
>> Mark Robinson: Have a good evening, thanks, Bob.
>> Mike Gregory: So I have a question, actually that brings up a point when you were just mentioning that in the conversation. One challenge that we definitely see now is that we have kinda this encroachment of urbanization in on farm lands. And so we have our farm lands that are becoming smaller.
[00:58:54]
They're being pushed further and further out. Ticket Hills Farm is kinda the epitome of an urban farm.
>> Mindy Robinson: It didn't start that way.
>> Mike Gregory: It didn't start that way. We have apartments now across the street. A quarter of the mile down the road looks like a brand new Publix.
[00:59:11]
>> Mindy Robinson: Mm-hm.
>> Mike Gregory: And Publix, huge grocery store, large customer base.
>> Mindy Robinson: Mm-hm.
>> Mike Gregory: And with big gas stations and everything, I mean, it's really building up around here. What kind of challenges are you seeing with that urban encroachment, especially with maybe like a big grocery store coming in?
[00:59:32]
Have you noticed that there have been any difficulties, challenges? Or have you made any adjustments to handle that over the, well, actually it's 20 years?
>> Mindy Robinson: 20 years.
>> Mike Gregory: So a 20-year anniversary.
>> Mindy Robinson: Yeah, when we bought this farm, I can remember, we were pitching, will you loan us money, to Mark's mom and dad.
[00:59:52]
I can remember us taking, somehow we managed to get an overview of, we brought maps or something and showed them where the farm was.
>> Mark Robinson: Google Earth.
>> Mindy Robinson: Google Earth was existing there, yeah, and showed them where the farm was located and where there were neighborhoods now. And we projected that this would grow up as far as neighborhoods.
[01:00:13]
And so yeah, we've got townhomes and homes across here. This guy over here put his land in a land trust and his grandchildren will someday inherit it, and I'm not sure what they will do with it. These folks on the other side of us, again, when someone passes away, that will go to children who most likely will sell it.
[01:00:35]
We've had a couple of nibbles even on our land. But the idea was sell it as a block with your neighbors and we'll offer you a certain amount. So one challenge is probably to say no to a good enough offer because we don't have children who are interested in doing this.
[01:00:52]
And we eventually will perhaps not be able to physically, I mean, we can both do a lot from here managing it with a good crew. But you've still got to be able to physically be able to do it and sometimes you you just get tired. But as far as our customer base and things like this, I mean, across the road there used to be just a field and two houses, and there was a bridge.
[01:01:19]
>> Mark Robinson: That was two and a half years ago.
>> Mindy Robinson: Yeah two and a half years ago, and I still have a picture of what it used to look like there, which is pretty. [LAUGH] I mean, one way to look at that is customers. Neighbors who could also potentially buy our produce, or at least just people who might be interested in coming over and hanging out on the farm.
[01:01:39]
Because there's no place over there to hang out. There's little tiny yards and stuff like that. As far as grocery stores around here, I have people who stop by the farm stand out there. And they say, well, I just stop by here and get my lettuce from you and then I go fill in the rest at the grocery store.
[01:01:57]
Or when we have tomatoes and cucumbers. So a lot of people more and more are starting to stop here and get what they like and fill in the blank.
>> Mark Robinson: Well, and a part of it is you're more adept at being able to provide a place. That roadside stand that we have right there?
[01:02:13]
That wasn't there this time last year.
>> Mindy Robinson: Yeah, so we've intentionally built that. I mean, we've talked about it for several years. But last year we made the big push to try to capture some of this market. And so-
>> Mark Robinson: And the traffic's horrendous in front of the house.
[01:02:27]
>> Mindy Robinson: Yeah, and so to try to get people to stop here and buy produce, because we've got the exposure. If our farm were located down a dirt road and nobody could see us, we probably wouldn't have that as part of our business model. But we've got this big wide expanse where people can pull in.
[01:02:44]
I mean, it's a great place to have a little market and see what we can do to sell into it. That's sort of our exit strategy, to be honest. If and as we're able to increase retail, which means more money per unit. And here with the farm sales, which means maybe we don't have to truck it as far or go to a market all the time.
[01:03:05]
Then that's something again that Mark and I can manage maybe with less crew eventually. I mean, in fact we had a conversation a couple years ago. Do we wanna put up another greenhouse? And we decided not to. We've got the space for it. But a greenhouse, the difference between a greenhouse and plowing another half an acre of land is a greenhouse means electricity.
[01:03:33]
A greenhouse means sands and pumps. It means water has to be plumbed to it, and it has to be managed. As opposed to a piece of land which you might have to irrigate it but that's all you have to do and plow it. You got to amend it, and all these kinds of things.
[01:03:48]
But a greenhouse is a lot of work, not just the putting out, but you've got extra maintenance. And we just decided we're not gonna extend it up, we're not gonna expand that way. So if anything, we're trying to get more consolidated and more efficient. And choose wisely what we grow, so that, You can sell more here, yeah.
[01:04:15]
>> Mike Gregory: So your farm stand is only a year old.
>> Mindy Robinson: Yes, that iteration of it, we've always had people who we worked out some way for them to stop, even if they called me and I put in a refrigerator that we had upfront. But as far as having the farm stand like a dedicated area where people.
[01:04:31]
And a part of that, the year before we tried it, was just a canopy kind of thing, but as far as having an employee sit out there with it was miserable. It was way too hot, and we had coolers out there to keep the produce pretty decent, but as far as an employee, it was just about unbearable.
[01:04:49]
So we had to make an air conditioned place for employees to be so that they can tolerate sitting out there.
>> Mike Gregory: So do you sell different types of produce? Is there something different that you sell at your food stand as opposed to Charlotte Regional, or Matthew's Community, or do you only sell specific things at certain locations, or are you pretty open?
[01:05:12]
>> Mindy Robinson: Pretty open, the only thing is just where the money is. [LAUGH] So if I have limited things to sell, I push more of it through. Right now I push more of it through the Matthews market because that is a better crowd there as far as buying what I have in season.
[01:05:27]
So for instance, if I have ten bags of red kale, I'll send seven to six of them to Matthews and only three to the regional market. And probably I could have sold all ten of them at Matthews, but I'm trying to sort of build up the crowd at the market too to know that we have a diversity of things.
[01:05:47]
And so here at the farm, anything we have anytime, because we're right here with it.
>> Mark Robinson: We actually, we grow some crops, never planning on a chef buying it.
>> Mindy Robinson: Yeah, and so if a chef wants it, if they see it at the market, they pay our retail rate.
[01:06:03]
For instance, tomatoes, when chefs say can I get 20 pounds of tomatoes? So if I have them, I'll sell them to you, but I'll only sell at the same rate as if I were selling to a farmer's market customer. And I tell them up front, because I could sell it at the market.
[01:06:17]
And there are times when I have 20 pounds of cucumbers but I won't let the chef have it. [LAUGH] Because I want them to get to the farmers market, I mean, people, they love our cucumbers, and I don't wanna show up and sell up halfway through the morning.
[01:06:33]
And the only thing is I sold them to a chef, I don't know, that's my customer loyalty in reverse, I would rather sell it to a customer at the farmer's market.
>> Mike Gregory: Well, there is obviously some outreach there too with customers at farmer's market, they could talk to friends, helping to bring you more customers.
[01:06:49]
>> Mindy Robinson: Exactly, yeah, and again it's usually not an issue of having a price difference, cuz I'll sell it for the same rate to a chef or to the customer, so I made as much money at the end of the day. But I like the personal interaction and slightly with the marketing of it, because customers will stop, like if they know I have cucumbers there they're like white on rice.
[01:07:10]
Especially early in the season when we're the only ones with cucumbers, and then they'll stand there and pick up other stuff. If I don't have cucumbers they might not take the time to stand in my line to get the other stuff. So it's definitely a draw, and it's not a loss for me, I'm not marking my cucumbers down.
[01:07:27]
It's just we have them when we have them, and nobody else has them. And I like the interaction. I like being able to say, we grew these for you all. I didn't give them to those chefs. I have three chefs who wanted these, and you guys got them.
[01:07:41]
And they like that. They know that, again, it's that personal connection, I think. But it's an aws connection. It ends at translating into money, but it's not all about that either, if that makes sense.
>> Mike Gregory: It makes perfect sense. So I don't know a lot about policy and things of this nature, but with being in Farmville, South Carolina.
[01:08:06]
And selling products to him in two businesses in the restaurants in North Carolina and Charlotte, it's not that far, but you're still across state lines. Do you run in with any kind of issues with that or do you?
>> Mindy Robinson: After this we may. [LAUGH] Who knows? The only issue we run into, it's a very small one, is for instance for us to be vendors at the regional market in Charlotte.
[01:08:35]
We can only be in a certain building, because we cannot be in the North Carolina only market, and we pay a slightly higher vending fee to vend there, because we're an out-of-state vendor.
>> Mark Robinson: And if there are more local people that wanna fill spots at the Charlotte [CROSSTALK] They could potentially put us out.
[01:08:56]
>> Mindy Robinson: No, but that hasn't happened in a couple years. I will say the new manager has worked that to our advantage. But there was a time when we would get the short end of the stick, as they would bump us out of the building, or they would make us squeeze in with another farmer, because the North Carolina farmers got first pick.
[01:09:17]
I mean, I understand that that system is subsidized by taxes, at some point, in North Carolina, which we do not pay, so that's what that is. It might work the same way in South Carolina, it's just we don't have any local South Carolina markets that have the drawing capacity as that market does.
[01:09:35]
And Matthews is in North Carolina, not an issue there. The only thing there is technically because of the way that market bylaws are set up is that we can't serve on the board. Board membership is limited to North Carolina growers. No big deal, I can live very well without serving on the board, it's not a thing.
[01:09:59]
But as far as transportation across state lines, I mean, I don't know if we're under the radar with that, but it's never been, to be honest, even a thought, so we just-
>> Mark Robinson: Well, and I've never seen, on this state line, an agricultural inspection station.
>> Mindy Robinson: No, it's not like when you're driving to Florida or some places like that where you're supposed to pull over and let them check.
[01:10:23]
And I think that's usually more just checking for insects and critters that you don't want traveling into parts of the country. I think that's more what that is for. The food policy really that's affecting everybody is the Food Safety Modernization Act that's coming down, and that's a federally based initiative that's being-
[01:10:43]
>> Mark Robinson: FSMA.
>> Mindy Robinson: FSMA, the administration that is being pushed through the local state departments of ag. So they're going to be the ones who implement, but they now have the right to go onto any farm and inspect it. Now, they're not very well funded. They don't have a lot of feet on the ground as far as inspectors to do it.
[01:11:06]
So I just finished going to a workshop talking about food safety modernization and what we call GAP, which is good agricultural practices. So we're in the process of documenting, upping the game, and just like they say, if you don't document it, it doesn't happen. So if I don't document that I've trained my people to wash their hands and not to come in when they've got a stomach bug, then I haven't done it.
[01:11:29]
So it's extra documentation for us to make sure that we're [CROSSTALK]
>> Mark Robinson: And do-
>> Mindy Robinson: Show them that we do these things.
>> Mark Robinson: Along with that fulfilling those requirements, we'll end up with what they call a GAP certification.
>> Mindy Robinson: Yeah.
>> Mark Robinson: Which is good agricultural practices.
>> Mindy Robinson: Yeah.
[01:11:45]
>> Mark Robinson: And,
>> Mark Robinson: Complying with those is no small thing, you end up having to have a third party audit every year.
>> Mindy Robinson: Yeah, yeah.
>> Mark Robinson: Total cost they estimate, and this is farmers calculating this, $13,000 to $15,000 a year to do your book keeping, and you have to pay for the auditors They traveled.
[01:12:12]
>> Mindy Robinson: Yeah so the moment they step in their car in Columbia they're on the clock. And you pay for all of that. So but what happens with that, the FSMA is federally mandated, and it's getting pushed. And there's some time deadlines, and things like that. So that's gonna be there.
[01:12:31]
The gap audit, there's a lot of overlap as far as the requirements but the gap audit is officially a voluntary certification but there are customers who are starting to require it. So from a business point of view if you want this customer to buy your produce, especially like institutional buyers or grocery stores or purveyors, people who buy and then resell again.
[01:12:56]
Then a farmer's gonna have to start and comply at some level with those food safety practices. And they're mostly very reasonable things. It's just a different, it's just more work. [LAUGH] I mean, it's not, if you went to your doctor, you certainly want have to wash his hands, or your dentist, or whatever.
[01:13:19]
>> Mike Gregory: I hope so. [LAUGH]
>> Mindy Robinson: Yeah, exactly, and you want him to do it, and you wanna make sure that they've autoclaved the instruments and things like that. And so it's a similar idea and it cost them money to do it so eventually, I mean, we'll look and see, but we'll have to probably push our prices up somewhere.
[01:13:37]
And like I said, it's probably time to do it. But-
>> Mike Gregory: That definitely answers where I was going with that, which was, did you notice any policies that were maybe causing a challenge with your business? Or on the flip side of that, any that have helped you in the recent couple of years?
[01:13:53]
>> Mindy Robinson: Help me I haven't, I haven't seen him [LAUGH].
>> Mike Gregory: [LAUGH]
>> Mindy Robinson: But I am not complaining it's just what it is
>> Mike Gregory: Yeah
>> Mindy Robinson: And I think in the end the funny thing about [INAUDIBLE] FSMA is we are actually exempt because of our level of income and the fact that a high percentage of our sales is to restaurants or the end user.
[01:14:20]
We don't sell a lot to middlemen. And because of that, we're technically exempt, but the way that's worded is you're exempt. But if you have any kind of incident that they can trace back to your farm that what was eaten made someone sick, and they're going to come looking for the exact same documentation as someone who was not exempt.
[01:14:43]
>> Mark Robinson: So, under that brand they basically say.
>> Mindy Robinson: You have to do it.
>> Mark Robinson: You have to, well. You're exempt but you still have to do all the book keeping.
>> Mindy Robinson: And not just financial book keeping, but documentation.
>> Mark Robinson: It's amazing the garbage that they.
>> Mindy Robinson: So it's an interesting thing.
[01:15:04]
What's nice is in South Carolina, excuse me are you taking off for the day?
>> Lisa: Yes.
>> Mindy Robinson: Where did we get in house three.
>> Lisa: I've got most everything planted except for the [INAUDIBLE].
>> Mindy Robinson: Okay, I can live with that. Thank you very much. And we've got reboots in both the other houses or at least planted.
[01:15:21]
>> Mark Robinson: Hey would you look at your car title for me and find out if that is an LS, or an RS or an SR.
>> Mindy Robinson: Okay so then let me ask about lettuce. Where did Jennifer leave off with lettuce?
>> Lisa: We got [INAUDIBLE] transferred.
>> Mindy Robinson: Okay and that was it?
[01:15:43]
>> Lisa: That was it, yeah.
>> Mindy Robinson: So we have to plant both houses? Okay more than I needed to know, thank you
>> Mark Robinson: Are we getting.
>> Mindy Robinson: Yeah you could text that to Mark, take a picture of it.
>> Lisa: Okay,=.
>> Mark Robinson: Well, just tell me tomorrow. I just wanna see if I can get that grill section for your car.
[01:15:58]
>> Lisa: Thank you.
>> Mark Robinson: You're welcome.
>> Mindy Robinson: Thanks Lisa. So, South Carolina is nice, because they will actually create a certificate of exemption. So, if an inspector shows up, all I really have to do is meet them down front say we're exempt. You don't need to come on our property because we don't have to, we've got this.
[01:16:23]
In North Carolina, you can be exempt but you have to bring out all of your books. And so you have to show them financially that you don't make more than a certain amount or financially where it all get sold. So that you can say, see I"m exempt. So, it just takes a little bit more finagling with the inspector before they keep going.
[01:16:42]
But, it's interesting that they've got those exemptions worked into that system. They're pretty broad.
>> Mike Gregory: So, I have a thought here.One thing that this this region is known for in North Carolina as well as right out here in across border to South Carolina, unpredictable weather Mm-hmm It seems like spring and winter tend to alternate every other day.
[01:17:16]
>> Mindy Robinson: Mm-hm.
>> Mike Gregory: As we're approaching [INAUDIBLE]. And sometimes we can't decide if it's gonna be fall or summer.
>> Mindy Robinson: Mm-hm.
>> Mike Gregory: Who knows how many seasons we have right now. They're all over the place. And with ice and everything that we get. Having greenhouses, that, we know that allows you to produce year round under more controlled conditions, does the greenhouse work, is it completely insulate you from weather conditions or what kind of difficulties do you still have to deal with even with the controlling environments?
[01:17:57]
>> Mark Robinson: You can.
>> Mark Robinson: Hey buddy.
>> Speaker 6: Hello.
>> Mark Robinson: To give you an example, if we were to build a new greenhouse and this is what it would cost me to mitigate all of those in all of that climate change or whatever you want to call it.
>> Mark Robinson: We could have a green house built that would be,let's just say we did a 30 by 100 foot, so we're doing 3000 square foot, greenhouse.
[01:18:47]
By the time we did everything to it that we need to do if we were going to survive all this,
>> Mark Robinson: We'd probably be somewhere in the ballpark of a $100 to $150,000 for a greenhouse like that. Now, we're talking about trying to get as efficient in heating as you can.
[01:19:12]
We would go ahead and put in lights from the get go, which is not inexpensive.
>> Mindy Robinson: You can have all sorts of monitoring devices and there's something, internal shade system that you can put in that you basically program it according to what you're growing inside and it will measure the amount of light that's coming naturally and it will open and close according to, how much light the lettuce needs, for example.
[01:19:48]
And so it's great but it's expensive because it's got little motors and they're running and opening
>> Mark Robinson: So give you an example-
>> Mindy Robinson: Turn lights on and off-
>> Mark Robinson: We say that we're harvesting 3000 heads of lettuce a week. The problem is when, give you a really good example about this winter.
[01:20:05]
This winter has just been cloudy beyond comprehension, I am so thankful we aren't growing tomatoes.
>> Mindy Robinson: [LAUGH]
>> Mark Robinson: They take tons of lights. Well, it even affects the size we can lose- My goodness. In a five week period, we can lose two ounces off the size of a head.
[01:20:26]
And we're talking about heads that are six ounces at a finished weight. They can show up at the fifth week in the tank and only be four ounces.
>> Mindy Robinson: Or less than that, some of them.
>> Mark Robinson: And we have to turn around, we sell by the head, but we also guarantee the weight.
[01:20:45]
So a chef will order 24 heads at 6 ounces a piece. We have to make sure that- So sometimes, we end up sending him 48 heads.
>> Mindy Robinson: But we only charge for the 24, because they're undersized heads. So with our current greenhouse system, because we don't have lights in it, we can't mitigate really cloudy weather.
[01:21:08]
The most we can do is offset temperature somewhat. And then really, usually, for us the more stressful time of the year is what we're heading into, which is the summer, when it's super hot, and humid. And humid means it's difficult to cool air, because it's already laden with moisture.
[01:21:25]
And just like on a hot, humid day, you don't sweat as well, because you're not evaporating off your skin. Well we rely on evaporative coolers in the greenhouse to provide cooling, and on a humid day they're almost useless, because the humidity is so high there is no differential to take it, physically speaking.
[01:21:47]
And so we do things like we put shade covers over the greenhouse. One of our greenhouses has actually internal shades, so you're reducing the amount of light which in the summertime means you're reducing the amount of heat, which is what you're trying to do. Cuz there's enough light in the summertime.
[01:22:02]
>> Mark Robinson: Yeah, your daylight's long enough, but your, for instance, infrared radiation.
>> Mindy Robinson: Yes, so you're trying to reduce that.
>> Mark Robinson: Type of screens that we used to shade with reflecting inrared out of the greenhouse.
>> Mindy Robinson: When I go to the farmers' market, I know this last week there was all this chat among the farmers about it being dry enough to get anything planted, or they planted stuff earlier and they figured it all rotted in the ground because it was so wet.
[01:22:31]
And somebody said something to me about, well, I guess you're not having problems, you're not having the same kind of problems with the greenhouse. And I wasn't being terribly snarky. I said, well we've had our share. I said that the cloudy days have hurt us too, and slowed things down.
[01:22:52]
But I do have cucumbers that are this tall right now, but we paid for it. We're paying electricity that they're not paying for, we're paying natural gas that they're not paying for. So I don't know. And she said well, you know? I understand that, she said because I was talking to so-and-so, and they said, we've expanded but we're really not making any more money at the end of the day than we did three years ago before we expanded.
[01:23:18]
Because it's just extra labor and extra inputs. So sometimes I look at our books and I'm thinking, before we had all this diversity, in some ways, we were capturing just as much out as far as profit as before we added another greenhouse and grew more things. Because it takes more management, sort of the same thing with, I don't know if there's a parallel or not, but no, we still struggle with it.
[01:23:46]
And hot's hot, in the summertime, it can be cooler in the greenhouse and we sort of rely on being the last people to have lettuce during the summer. It's rare that other people will have that, because that's a cool weather crop. But we're working against the season for the summer.
[01:24:06]
>> Mark Robinson: But we also chill the water.
>> Mindy Robinson: Yeah, yeah Mark is good and he oxygenates the water, he's figured out several things too.
>> Mark Robinson: Yeah we chill 50,000 gallons of water in the summertime down to the 70 degrees.
>> Mindy Robinson: But we have a lot higher electricity bill.
>> Mark Robinson: [CROSSTALK] But we don't have a choice.
[01:24:30]
Once water gets to 84 degrees, it won't carry enough oxygen to support plants that are growing hydroponically.
>> Mindy Robinson: So you have to keep it cool. And that's the other thing with, again, sort of that production line idea is, we're sort of geared up. And we've occasionally talked about, well, let's just not grow for this season.
[01:24:51]
Well, it takes eight weeks to bring a head of lettuce to harvest from seeding it. That's an average to production. So if you stopped and let's say you wanted to start again and let's say you wanna take two weeks off or take a month off, well you've gotta harvest what's in there.
[01:25:11]
And the stuff that takes two, you can't take just a month off. You'd have to take three months off and really you'd only have a month where you didn't do anything. And by then, you're already passed the hot part, or the problem part of the year. So for us we just push through it.
[01:25:26]
Sometimes it's not real pretty when you walk out there in the greenhouse and things have died or there have been issues. But it makes more sense to push through it and solve the problems than it does to just not do it. Now, next year when I do something different-
[01:25:39]
>> Mark Robinson: That's the management part of it-
>> Mindy Robinson: That's the management part of it, yeah.
>> Mark Robinson: Of succession planting, like we do, every week. Well, twice on microgreens. We cut twice a week, take orders twice a week, deliver twice a week.
>> Mindy Robinson: And harvest and pack and plant. I mean, we do it all-
[01:25:56]
>> Mark Robinson: We do everything twice a week. On Lettuce, we're harvesting all week long.
>> Mindy Robinson: Yeah, and that's what that conversation I have with the through is they had gotten almost all the process done, but we have to catch up tomorrow on a couple of things so that's. But you just gotta concentrate to push though I don't know.
[01:26:18]
>> Mark Robinson: Anyway, I do this stuff in the summer time. The peppers need to be picked every, twice a week.
>> Mindy Robinson: Yeah.
>> Mark Robinson: And tomatoes say.
>> Mindy Robinson: Yeah, so it's-
>> Mark Robinson: It's a.
>> Mindy Robinson: But yeah, so the temperature and it, it affects our crew, people don't like to be cold, they don't like to be hot.
[01:26:34]
So in the winter time, it's not that bad because the greenhouse is a pretty pleasant to work in, they're tolerable, they're pleasant. In the summer time, it's definitely, get in here early and get done, so you're not having to be in a greenhouse in the middle of the day, because it's hot.
[01:26:49]
So again, we have to manage the work and ship to mountain.
>> Mike Gregory: That sounds like green houses, they kind of mitigate some of the weather issues.
>> Mindy Robinson: They do.
>> Mike Gregory: But they certainly don't, they're not insulated.
>> Mindy Robinson: No, if we were further north, in some ways, it would be easier to manage greenhouses.
[01:27:04]
Then you would have increased heating costs maybe, but your summer time mitigation would be a lot simpler. And then further south they treat greenhouses more like high tunnels and they'll raise the sides. And again, you just choose what to grow, it would make no sense to grow tomatoes hydroponically in a greenhouse in Florida in the summertime.
[01:27:26]
I mean, Florida has it completely flipped. They grow through the winter and try not to grow in the summer, because it's so very hot. And that's where you drill down and you figure out which cultivars, which particular variety of tomato works best in sort of our zone, for which a particular kind of lettuce works best.
[01:27:45]
>> Mark Robinson: The big thing with, to give you a really good example. The ideal places where they put these large range greenhouses, both in Mexico and in the Southwest US is high mountain deserts.
>> Mindy Robinson: So you get this nice cool off at night time.
>> Mark Robinson: Really good light year round.
[01:28:08]
>> Mindy Robinson: Yeah.
>> Mark Robinson: Even when your days are shorter. Quality of the light.
>> Mindy Robinson: Mm-hm, not as much as clouds.
>> Mark Robinson: Humidity is low, so you have the ability to cool those tomatoes or whatever crop you're growing in the summer time, regardless. I mean I've been out west, in the desert Southwest and you are talking what 10-15% humidity.
[01:28:33]
Well, I can. [LAUGH]
You can take 110 degrees heat at only 13%, and run it through an evaporated cooler which you'll see out there, and it will come out on the other side so. It's just water running through a. Corrogated cardboard panel you saw. This [INAUDIBLE] what they use down in Phoenix in Arizona.
[01:28:58]
A lot of people use this in their house [INAUDIBLE].
>> Mike Gregory: So they choose that and then they have plenty of solar radiation to learn time, I mean it's they have big ranges. So it's a compromise trying to grow humidity's too high, or you-
>> Mindy Robinson: You know, our greenhouses are older, and they're not tall enough to efficiently provide light that would be a growing light, just because you have to have them up high enough.
[01:29:34]
And it's expensive, and so-
>> Mark Robinson: If we would put Electronic lights in.
>> Mindy Robinson: If we put like electronic lights to try to offset cloudy weather or things like that so. I feel like I've taken enough farmer problems to the market to be able to complain just enough. I try not to too much.
[01:29:54]
Yeah.
>> Mike Gregory: So I have one last question for you. And I am really curious about where are you seeing yourself and take Hill farm in the next couple of years or do you have any goals any markets you want to try to break through and you produce that you're interested in experimenting with.
[01:30:12]
I'll leave that pretty open for you to.
>> Mindy Robinson: That's so funny. So Mark and I have this dynamic I think we've identified the dynamic. Mark is the visionary. He is the one who is looking for new products. Wouldn't this be cool? I've always want, let me try to do that.
[01:30:27]
So I let him tell you what he wants to grow next, okay?
>> Mike Gregory: Okay.
>> Mindy Robinson: 'Cause he's the one who wants to do that, if at all possible I really would like to keep pushing and figuring out how to make our farm stand not just an offset of the employees' wage who we dedicate to it.
[01:30:50]
But to be able to have enough time to focus on figuring out how to really increase the sales through there year round. And this year we're sort of stabbed at it a little bit. Did better in the summer time. So that's where I would like to focus on.
[01:31:07]
>> Mark Robinson: If we can build our clientele,
>> Mark Robinson: Where just a general person stopping at the roadside stand and buying average produce for the average amount our goal is to get about 300 people a week to stop in. Is that not...
>> Mindy Robinson: Yeah, if I had 300 people who each spent ten dollars every time they stopped and they came every week.
[01:31:30]
>> Mark Robinson: That would be an increase in revenue in our pocket of $30,000 or $40,000.
>> Mindy Robinson: Which could start to be something that we throw into a retirement fund or that we just, you know, there's lots of different good things to do with that money that would be reasonable to do.
[01:31:49]
I mean, something I would love to do, again looking toward maybe a slightly different model, is I would love to have more events here about farming and gardening. But I would need to partner with someone. At the rate that we're working right now, I don't have the time to develop that.
[01:32:07]
But if that were more productive down there, then I could maybe partner with someone or hire someone in to manage that or let them manage something I'm doing so that I could do it or. Anyway, because of where we're located and we have enough parking. It would be a great place to have classes, or community events, or things like that.
[01:32:29]
I would like it to be a more integral part of our community. And that might set this property up to be something that would continue on, after Mark and I are no longer here, or able to do it, that someone actually could purchase or we could, I don't know.
[01:32:45]
There's all sorts of different ways you could make this more continuous. But in the end, it's two acres, it's not holy ground. [LAUGH] It's been really good for us, but it's not something that has to be kept in perpetuity. It doesn't you know so we try to be good stewards but not.
[01:33:11]
>> Mark Robinson: His business is the same way. He does specialty cabinets and fixtures. And so build beautiful stuff, those corporation are big but, it was one of many, he and Darrel.
>> Mindy Robinson: His partner.
>> Mark Robinson: And, they knew from the beginning, chances were even when a person's paid full dollar for it, unless they wanted to invest themselves in the business and make it their own.
[01:33:43]
In other words how the business generate division, that new business would fail. You know these folks spend 5, 6 million dollars to buy a business that failed.
>> Mindy Robinson: Because they didn't have the passion to get in and run it themselves. They were sort of trying to be
>> Mark Robinson: 'Cause it takes oversight.
[01:34:01]
>> Mindy Robinson: Absentee.
>> Mark Robinson: It takes making sure that the quality of product is good enough. This farm is exactly the same way. I mean, from the very beginning, we don't give an example. Foster Cabin's or Fresh Point calls up and he wants a quarter pound of dill micrograins. Okay.
[01:34:25]
Which we're not growing right now. We go down and we cut and we have a container that is .24. Which is not the same as .25 which is 4 ounces.
>> Mindy Robinson: It's off, it's short.
>> Mark Robinson: We will not sell that as a .25 container, won't happen. And it drives some of the wholesalers, the big broadliners.
[01:35:02]
It drives them nuts, because they put their quantities in as a unit, as a small this is a unit that we get from digging hills. They don't have the capacity to handle 100 short.
>> Mindy Robinson: Is that what they call it?
>> Mark Robinson: And was our chance at the beginning.
[01:35:23]
We get a whole bunch of people and they all decide that they want to buy micro cilantro all at the same time. Well you end up with so many. And we grow microgreens on speculation, nobody orders it ahead. So what happens is,
>> Mark Robinson: Our chefs have, they are secure in the idea that everybody orders, so you know what we do.
[01:35:51]
We short everybody. If, [COUGH] if we have ten people that order quarter pounds of cilantro- And I only have two pounds of it, then everybody gets 0.20 instead of 0.25.
>> Mindy Robinson: I'll tell him on the phone, we're spreading the love around. But all that being said, we can do that because we're running it day to day and we have these relationships.
[01:36:17]
And so if I wanted to do anything with it in the next, I would like to track along those lines and just be more, you know, get to know my neighbors across the road, cuz they're there, [LAUGH] you know? They weren't there a couple of years ago, but now they're there.
[01:36:32]
So, let's see what we can do in this local community to be a good part of this local community, knowing that it may not last past Mark and me. And that's okay. If there's some way that we could set it up so that somebody actually wanted to buy it or run it past us, and it made sense and they have the same set of skills to run it or to do something with it, great.
[01:36:54]
If not, you know, eventually, it'll not be a farm because it's not connected to somebody else who wants to buy in. And lots of times, out in the country, somebody dies or moves or shifts or whatever, and a neighbor will buy their land. Because I always wanted that little piece that lets me get down to the creek, or now my pasture goes, you know.
[01:37:17]
But we don't have that here, we're locked in. So it's either gotta stay this or become such a part of the community that other people want to keep it here or it's gonna be something. Now Mark on the other hand, would love to grow artichokes, husk cherries. [LAUGH] He's got all sorts of stuff he wants on trying.
[01:37:38]
>> Mike Gregory: You gotta dream big and try it, though.
>> Mindy Robinson: Yeah, yeah.
>> Mark Robinson: Well you know, Chester's a really struggling town, they struggle terribly, and- Chester county, you said?
>> Mindy Robinson: Yeah, In South Carolina, just one more south of us.
>> Mark Robinson: Chester county, and I know that we've met a couple of different times with the head FFA teacher in the high school.
[01:38:01]
And I still believe some of the extention, Florida extension, Virginia, you can, we can grow artichokes here.
>> Mark Robinson: 90-95% of all artichokes are grown in Southern California.
>> Mike Gregory: Right now, yeah.
>> Mark Robinson: Right now. And it's one of those crops where there's enough information about how to Chester could become the east coast.
[01:38:34]
>> Mindy Robinson: Artichoke capital.
>> Mark Robinson: Yes.
>> Mindy Robinson: Yeah.
>> Mark Robinson: And it would have some economic influence for those people. So the part of me has this vision for beyond myself to seeing folks, communities, do some of this. I can't do all of it. The husk cherries, in Australia right now, the cape gooseberries, they're called.
[01:39:03]
They're a nightshade. They remind you of a miniature tomato. They're about this big around, and they're gold color, but they are amazingly sweet, to the point where you can dry them out as raisins and you can make pies out of them. There are a tremendous multi use, and they have a husk around like a tomatilla.
[01:39:22]
Anyway, nobody knew that you could really grow these hydroponically, and I troll the Internet with all the different publications having to do with farming and stuff. And so there's a guy down, he's tremendously successful with cape gooseberries in a hydroponic system, so we're looking at that. Looked at and I still would love to, I really wanna grow saffron.
[01:39:54]
>> Mindy Robinson: I was gonna say that we looked into saffron last year. Drilled down, really, really, and finally, I was just, I don't think we can do this.
>> Mark Robinson: The big problem with saffron is, if you could imagine pulling out, I mean, you're talking about five little threads out of each clove.
[01:40:11]
>> Mindy Robinson: We started talking about it. The people who work for us just looked at us. I said, we'd have to hire just people, because I think they were about to revolt on us. They were like, we're not gonna do that. That is so much work.
>> Mark Robinson: Well, I said, what you do if you go out every morning and you cut all the blooms that have come up, you snip them off.
[01:40:29]
And then you bring them all in, and basically, you'd sit down with them immediately and pull the saffron threads out
>> Mindy Robinson: [LAUGH] anyway-
>> Mark Robinson: I said, yeah, we'd all just gather around table first thing in the morning.
>> Mindy Robinson: [LAUGH] Everybody starts looking at me and they're like, [LAUGH] they're like.
[01:40:46]
#VALUE!#VALUE!#VALUE!
>> Mark Robinson: Is he serious?
>> Mindy Robinson: [LAUGH] No, so if Mark and I were a stage coach, he's like the ten horses out front, going yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm like the guy sitting on the brakes. I'm like [LAUGH] hold back. So, but it's become a good, I think we respect-
[01:41:07]
>> Mark Robinson: Sounds like you have a good partnership.
>> Mindy Robinson: I think we do have a good partnership, and since we're married to each other, that's a good thing. It's been a refining thing in our marriage for life, to be business partners. Yeah, so I don't know, maybe we'll go on the circuit someday and talk about farming as partners someday.
[01:41:24]
But anyway, it's a whole-
>> Mike Gregory: Sounds like a TED talk opportunity.
>> Mindy Robinson: That's right, if we could figure out how to do that and get our daughter to get us figured up with the technology on that.
>> Mark Robinson: But we are, how do I say it? It's kind of an end spot.
[01:41:42]
It's fulfilling to be able, we feed our staff every Wednesday. We can't afford pay them a living wage, but it doesn't mean that we, you know, we want them to come here, and at least for this period of their life, for this to be a relatively fulfilling place to work.
[01:42:11]
You hear me talk with Lisa about trying to figure out what her car is. Well, it's kind of a, we have folks working here that, they don't have a lot of money. And when you wreck a car, you either don't fix it and you drive it as is, or Mark will volunteer and we'll go get aftermarket parts and we'll put your car back together enough to where you can drive it.
[01:42:43]
>> Mark Robinson: It's just helping folks along their way. [LAUGH]
>> Mindy Robinson: Yeah, yeah.
>> Mark Robinson: So that's what we hope. For our employees,
>> Mark Robinson: It's a really important thing. As much as we grow, as much as we want them to be efficient and work tremendously hard, ultimately, the value is in what the farm gives me to raise children.
[01:43:16]
>> Mark Robinson: And we care for the people who work here, and it's just those are the important things that for our perspective, and we're not gonna necessarily get into that. And there are eternal things.
>> Mindy Robinson: Right.
>> Mike Gregory: So sounds like it's much more than a farm. It's an extended family.
[01:43:41]
>> Mindy Robinson: We look at it that way. Yep, in fact, we've got one more member coming in right now. There she is.
>> Mark Robinson: Miss Pat. Miss Pat.
>> Pat: Hey.
>> Mindy Robinson: Got us fixed up?
>> Speaker 6: Yep.
>> Mindy Robinson: Thank you very much.
>> Mike Gregory: Well, I can't thank you enough for allowing me to conduct this interview with you.
[01:44:03]
I'll just add real quick for whomever may be listening to this, that you have a website, tegahillsfarms.com, and it's really up to date. It's a very nice website, has all of your contact information on it. And you invite people to come and visit and to see it, and I think that's great, and I certainly would encourage it.
[01:44:24]
>> Pat: Mindy, you want me to go back down and do some work there for you?
>> Mindy Robinson: Thank you, yes, thank you very much.
>> Mike Gregory: But thank you all so much, this has been such a great pleasure to get to talk to you. And I look forward to seeing how Tega Hills grows, I really do, and I hope more people hear this and come out to see you and to visit.
[01:44:45]
>> Mindy Robinson: That would be great.
>> Mark Robinson: Well,
>> Mark Robinson: It would be very fulfilling for us to really have the community. We have people in this immediate area that don't even know we exist because we have invested ourselves in farmer's markets and in the restaurant market in Charlotte, there hasn't been time to put ourselves in the community.
[01:45:12]
It would be a blessing to us to be able to have the relationships for a walk across the road, to come by and stop by and say hello, and to be even a small gathering place. And so it's something we really look forward to. If there's anything we're looking forward to, it's this summer, and what that it's gonna bring.
[01:45:41]
In us being introduced to the community across the road, so.
>> Mindy Robinson: Thank you.
>> Mike Gregory: Well, thank you very much
>> Mark Robinson: Thank you.
UNC Charlotte Community Garden - Rebecca Byrd
Rebecca Byrd was raised in Boston, Massachusetts, and is a current graduate student at UNC Charlotte. Prior to finishing her undergraduate degree at UNC Charlotte, she attended Queen's University and Howard University. Rebecca transferred to UNC Charlotte in spring of 2016. As a way to connect with the UNC Charlotte community, Rebecca joined the Community Garden Club. After being a club member for the spring semester and throughout the summer, she became the president of the Community Garden Club in fall 2016. During her time as president, Rebecca worked to keep the garden running smoothly, attract new student members, and promote the benefits of the community garden. Some of the particularly interesting highlights of this interview include the involvement of college students in community gardening and the redistribution of food from the UNC Charlotte community garden to the student Jamil Niner Student Pantry. The Jamil Niner Pantry provides food to UNC Charlotte students that experience food insecurity, and the student community garden helps provide fresh produce to the pantry.
| Time | Subject |
| 0:00:07 | Interview Starts |
| 0:00:46 | Rebecca introduces herself and explains how she got involved in the Community Garden Club at UNC Charlotte |
| 0:01:51 | UNC Charlotte Community Garden Club |
| 0:02:32 | Foundation of Community Garden Club at UNCC |
| 0:02:46 | How UNCC students started the Community Garden |
| 0:03:07 | What produce the garden grows |
| 0:03:54 | Location of community garden on UNCC campus |
| 0:04:57 | Faculty and student community garden |
| 0:05:25 | Community Garden Club affiliation with McMillan Greenhouse |
| 0:06:17 | Logistics of garden (who buys the plants/when to plant/nurseries) |
| 0:07:13 | Student volunteering over the summer break |
| 0:08:58 | Landscaping and gardening upkeep |
| 0:09:38 | Raised bed and garden layout |
| 0:10:17 | Pollinators (i.e. bees) in the garden and a bed dedicated to them |
| 0:10:58 | The garden as a student community space and a space for students to host events |
| 0:12:10 | Vandalism and community gardens. What the student garden has experienced in terms of littering and stealing in the garden area. How to keep community gardens as clean as rural environments. |
| 0:14:07 | Urban agriculture and understanding community gardens in Charlotte. How well known is urban agriculture in city environments? |
| 0:15:07 | Produce distribution. Rebecca explains the garden harvest and food distribution to the Jamil Niner Pantry. |
| 0:16:08 | Rebecca begins talking about the UNC Charlotte Jamil Niner student pantry. |
| 0:16:32 | Describes what the pantry is and how students can get groceries and produce. |
| 0:17:52 | Talking about the life cycle of food grown at the UNCC community garden. |
| 0:18:02 | Who gives produce and groceries to the Jamil Niner Pantry. |
| 0:18:31 | Ask question about composting. Does the student community garden compost? |
| 0:18:46 | Rebecca brings up the idea of beekeeping on campus. |
| 0:19:40 | Advertising the Community Garden Club and her attempts to gain new student members. |
| 0:20:17 | Talk about the social media (Instagram and Facebook) outreach of the Garden Club. |
| 0:21:45 | Asked about the major benefits of community gardening. Rebecca talks about what she sees as the benefit to community gardening as a whole. |
| 0:24:09 | Talking about the benefits of growing and nurturing plants to fruition. |
| 0:25:02 | Asked Rebecca what some of the challenges were regarding community gardening. Rebecca talks about student involvement, commitment to the garden, and running a student organization over the summer when students are on break. |
| 0:27:17 | Asked Rebecca if she thought community gardens were helping alleviate some of the food issues currently happening in Charlotte. |
| 0:28:00 | Rebecca talks about how community gardens can be an advocate for food insecure communities in Charlotte. She talks about the limitations community gardens experience (in size and amount of food they can produce). |
| 0:28:50 | How community gardens can be a voice for communities in Charlotte, since they produce food for specific areas of Charlotte. How community gardens can help larger gardens. |
| 0:29:26 | Asked Rebecca what she sees for the future of community gardens. Rebecca talks about incorporating more aspects of gardening such as beekeepers and butterflies. |
| 0:30:31 | Rebecca talks about the inclusion of hydroponics in community gardening. |
| 0:31:25 | Talk about climate change and its effect on gardens. |
| 0:32:29 | Talk about the resources that UNC Charlotte provided to the Community Garden Club. |
| 0:33:38 | Discussing UNC Charlotte’s role in being involved with food insecurity in the larger Mecklenburg area. |
| 0:34:23 | Discussing food insecurity and how UNC Charlotte could better contribute to the growing conversation of food and communities in the area. |
| 0:35:15 | Talking about how much UNC Charlotte could realistically be involved in helping with hunger in Charlotte. |
| 0:36:52 | Explaining the location of UNC Charlotte in the “crescent” of the city and what communities surround the university. |
| 0:38:19 | Asked Rebecca anything else she would want me to know about community garden. |
| 0:38:55 | Rebecca talks about dropping off the food at the Jamil Niner Pantry |
| 0:39:13 | Ask Rebecca about what foods grew best at the garden. She talks about rainbow swiss chard and what is easy to grow in the garden. |
| 0:39:38 | Talks about the difficulty of growing blueberries and ph soil levels |
| 0:40:34 | Ph levels in the soil and help from the McMillan Greenhouse |
| 0:41:37 | Planting challenges included full sun, shade, and ph levels in soil. Talking about the location of the garden and how much sun it receives. |
| 0:42:32 | Types of flowers grown in the community garden. How flowers can be a benefit and a hindrance for a community garden. |
| 0:43:34 | Talking about what is in the garden including bugs, lizards, and bees. How this can make people nervous to garden. (Bugs, worms, stink bugs, bees, etc.) |
| 0:45:46 | Rebecca starts talking about her own personal garden at home. She talks about personal plants and water drainage in her apartment complex. |
| 0:46:43 | Challenges of urban gardens. We discuss how urban gardening could be seen as a nuisance or bother to neighbors. |
| 0:47:19 | Rebecca talks about different types of fertilizers and sales by gardner stores and nurseries. How inconcenancies of gardening (cost, lack of sprouts) can turn people off from urban gardening. |
| 0:48:20 | Rebecca talks about some “tips and tricks” of gardening to help beginners garden. |
| 0:49:19 | Talking about experimenting with gardening, looking at Google and Youtube to feel more confident in gardening abilities, especially if you are a new gardener. |
| 0:50:48 | Ask Rebecca about self-pollination in the community garden. Rebecca explains the process of self pollination and how to do it. Discusses self-pollinating strawberries in the community garden. |
| 0:53:17 | Asked Rebecca about her favorite part of being in the community garden club and being the president. She talks about the joys of being outside and the challenges of weeding the raised beds in the garden. She talks about the joys of nurturing plants to fruition. |
| 0:54:51 | Rebecca concludes the interview about tips for beginners who are interested in gardening, including ideas for plants for beginners to start, and where to pick up growing kits. |
| 0:56:07 | Talk about how sometimes there are “dud” seeds in a bunch of seeds. |
| 0:57:03 | :35 Rebecca talks about the benefits of gardening and how it helps people get back to nature and outside of technology. Talking about how gardens can be a place for relaxation, while also producing food for a community. |
| 0:57:41 | Ask Rebecca if there are any other questions I should have asked her |
| 0:57:53 | Rebecca talks about her childhood experiences in gardening and how it instilled a love for gardening in her. We talk about growing up gardening and memories of gardening. |
| 0:58:41 | Rebecca talks about her grandmother and a daffodil growing competition and how important family influence is for gardening. |
| 1:00:13 | 06 Rebecca talks about loving nature and being outside and the value of the environment in self-care. |
| 1:00:47 | 40 Talking about growing up with a garden and childhood memories. |
| 1:01:32 | 25 Talking about how Rebecca’s gardening experience influenced her love for plants and her dream of having a farm outside the city. We talk about ideas of a future farm and dream ideas. |
| 1:02:37 | 30 Interview Ends |
[00:00:08]
>> Savannah Brown: Today is Wednesday March 20th, 2019 at 11:00 o'clock AM. My name is Savannah Brown, and today I will be interviewing Rebecca Byrd, past president of UNC Charlotte's Community Garden. We are interviewing on the UNC Charlotte Campus. The community garden is maintained through the community garden club, whose mission is to produce good healthy food by working together towards a common goal.
[00:00:29]
This garden will become a space that accommodates the community as a whole. Today we will be discussing the UNC Charlotte community garden, volunteering, and food distribution. So first, can you just introduce yourself and tell me a little bit about how you got interested in working with community gardens?
[00:00:46]
>> Rebecca Byrd: Okay, my name is Rebecca Byrd. I am one of the past presidents of the UNC Charlotte's Student Community Garden. And how I got involved, it seems like it was so long ago, but it wasn't that long ago. So I transferred to UNC Charlotte from Quinn's University by way of Howard.
[00:01:08]
So UNC Charlotte was my third school, so third time's a charm. And I came here spring of 2016. So I was kind of looking for student groups to be a part of, but just something different. And so I was like the student community garden, that seems really cool, I like gardening.
[00:01:32]
So I just became a member, and then after spending a semester and part of the summer really being a part they asked me do you wanna be the president? So I said sure, why not?
>> Savannah Brown: Yeah.
>> Rebecca Byrd: [LAUGH]
>> Savannah Brown: Cool, so it's a club, it's maintained. So the community gardens maintained completely by a club?
[00:01:55]
>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes.
>> Savannah Brown: Is it still going on?
>> Rebecca Byrd: I believe so, but honestly after graduating I haven't still kept in contact with Paula and the other people at the greenhouse who also kind of help with the club. But I still get emails from time to time, so I think it's still going on.
[00:02:16]
>> Savannah Brown: I think it is too. I was doing some research and I saw that they still have something on the student organization, so it seems like you can still join in. Maybe not as active as it was when you were president, because I read that it started like 2014-ish.
[00:02:31]
Is that right?
>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes.
>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, so can you just tell me a little bit about the garden itself, like where it is, and just what you guys grew, and what's there?
>> Rebecca Byrd: So it was started in 2014 by two students, I wish I remembered their names, it sounds so horrible.
[00:02:49]
But two students, they got a grant, and this was a part of their grant. And so they decided hey, let's have a garden on campus. So the garden is located in between stores in Robinson. And we have some hammocks out there, and we grew sugar snap peas, Swiss chard, broccoli, different varieties of lettuce.
[00:03:13]
We also did a couple of herbs, we did basil, we did chives. What else did we do? We did tomatoes, but tomatoes, that's always tricky because the birds, they tend to say that's ours. So that's where we're located. Although sometimes it's kind of hard, especially when it gets colder it's kind of like whoa, gotta start that stuff indoors, and then transplant and bring it outside.
[00:03:39]
>> Savannah Brown: Right, so I'll include a map for visual reference when I upload all of these documents. Is it up here, the community garden? Where are stores in Robinson?
>> Rebecca Byrd: Okay, so I know what you're talking about.
>> Savannah Brown: [LAUGH]
>> Rebecca Byrd: So there's the community garden which, that's actually faculty members.
[00:04:00]
They actually have that house. Do you know that house next to the visitor parking near, is it east deck? I think it's east deck.
>> Savannah Brown: Yes, yes.
>> Rebecca Byrd: That's the faculty community garden, so they have little plants and they do that. But the student community garden, it's between Robinson and store.
[00:04:19]
So if you're headed towards, like you're walking past hall. So keep going straight and then, where Robinson is, you see that modern sculpture out front, if you keep walking, on the left. It's right next to the BM center.
>> Savannah Brown: Okay, I'm gonna have to go do some-
>> Rebecca Byrd: [LAUGH]
[00:04:40]
>> Savannah Brown: Some investigation, because I see the little community garden sign by East deck and I thought that's where it was, but when I was doing the research, I was like, this is not the same thing. Okay, that makes sense. So you guys don't have anything to do with the faculty around the community garden?
[00:04:55]
>> Rebecca Byrd: No, right before I stopped being involved with the gardening club, there was a big thing, are we the community garden or the student community garden? Because the faculty members were like well, we garden too.
>> Savannah Brown: [LAUGH]
>> Rebecca Byrd: So I’m kind of like okay, everyone wants to have their own special space.
[00:05:12]
So we're the student community garden, but we don’t have any affiliation or anything with them.
>> Savannah Brown: Okay, that makes sense, but do you have affiliation with the greenhouse?
>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes.
>> Savannah Brown: Okay, so can you tell me a little bit about that?
>> Rebecca Byrd: So the greenhouse team, Paula and all the other folks there, they kind of serve as our, I guess, faculty advisers.
[00:05:32]
And so they help us plan what we're gonna grow each season, what type of activities we wanna do on the campus side of things, and it was good. I appreciated their help, especially as faculty members, to see that they were helping, being involved in this type of thing.
[00:05:53]
>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, I think that's really important for student organizations. Cuz you kind of need that authoritative figure, just to help you figure out how to navigate through all the stuff.
>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes.
>> Savannah Brown: You can see, [LAUGH], I totally understand. So for the logistics of the garden, do the students provide their own plants or how does that work, like the mulch and stuff?
[00:06:16]
>> Rebecca Byrd: So usually, we have weed by the plants, the mulch, all of that stuff, and then we start working on things. Usually in the greenhouse, if it's cold like right now, we probably would have had stuff already ready and already sprouted. And then, probably, as soon as it gets 60, 70-ish on a normal basis, then we would transplant things outside.
[00:06:40]
>> Savannah Brown: Gotcha.
>> Rebecca Byrd: So I know we had a couple of good people online, I know the Burpee, that sounds like a baby name.
>> Savannah Brown: [LAUGH]
>> Rebecca Byrd: The Burpee Gardening people, they have a great website, a lot of stuff to purchase for all your gardening needs. I know we also visited Pike Nurseries, and I liked them, they're really nice too.
[00:07:04]
They have a lot of good stuff too, for gardening as well.
>> Savannah Brown: Got you, and did students volunteer and help at the club over the summer?
>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes, so that was one of the biggest challenges, actually, when I started participating, because a lot of people leave and go home over the summer.
[00:07:23]
And so the garden, it could not be maintained by the landscaping people here at UNC Charlotte because they would wanna spray pesticides and all manner of things down. But when you're giving food away to the pantry, you can’t really spray some of those things down, especially cuz it’s toxic not only to people but to the plants.
[00:07:46]
So we had to be in charge of that area. Even though, still from time to time, landscape will just spray something down on a plant and it’s just like, what are you doing? But it was definitely a challenge, but students definitely, I think, will Hopefully now step up to the plate and say even if I'm still in the area, I'll come into Charlotte maybe one day a week or two days out the week to water the garden.
[00:08:15]
So definitely, summer involvement, it's key and it's probably, I'd say the most important time for members to really be active. But probably, arguably, the most important time, spring and summer, and early fall, to be really proactive in the group.
>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, because that seems to be the biggest growing season.
[00:08:35]
>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes.
>> Savannah Brown: So that's when you really need the most weeding, watering, taking care of plants. And I was thinking about that because I love to garden, but my plants did the best summer and then early fall. So I know with students coming and going, with this being a student organization, I could see where that would be difficult.
[00:08:55]
Now, did you guys have to mow any grass or anything, or did landscaping do that?
>> Rebecca Byrd: There's no grass.
>> Savannah Brown: There's no grass, okay.
>> Rebecca Byrd: There's no grass, it's just raised beds-
>> Savannah Brown: It's just raised beds.
>> Rebecca Byrd: So it's really good that the only amount of work we'll have to do is just keeping up with the soil, fertilizing it, making sure there's no weeds in there.
[00:09:15]
Just pruning plants as they grow, that type of thing. So I'm glad it's not too taxing [LAUGH] cuz if we had to mow the lawn, like how it is right in front of the school, that would be so much. That would be so much.
>> Savannah Brown: Yes, because I feel like landscaping is always working here, like they're always on our ground and they're always mowing something, so well, that's good.
[00:09:34]
So how many raised beds is it?
>> Rebecca Byrd: I have to think off the top of my head, we have one, two, three, four, five, seven, I believe we have around seven or eight.
>> Savannah Brown: Okay, and is each bed a different produce or do you have them kind of all mixed in?
[00:09:56]
>> Rebecca Byrd: We have them all mixed in, but there are certain plants that are planted next to each other, just because they, I don't know how to describe it, other than that they thrive being in the same environment. So that's usually how the beds are set up and how they work.
[00:10:11]
But one of our beds, I remember, is dedicated to pollinators, so we have lantanas, which are really good for butterflies and bees. And we also had strawberries too, so it was this nice little area over there, especially because we have to save the bees.
>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, no, I think one of my colleagues might be interviewing, I think there's two bee farms.
[00:10:37]
So that'll be really neat to see, kind of how that pollination aspect plays into community gardens and large gardens.
>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes.
>> Savannah Brown: So can you tell me a little about the space? Because I was reading online, the creators of the original garden, they wanted it to be more than a garden, kind of a place for students to relax.
[00:10:57]
>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes, so we have hammocks out there, and we've had some problems with the hammocks, of students stealing them. It's like we can't have nice things. But the space itself, we try to have events that will bring in other student orgs. So I remember we had the Turkish Club and they had Turkish tea as well at our end of the year event, we also had live music in the garden.
[00:11:23]
So I think it really could be a bigger space that's more centered on students, but I just think it'll take a lot to get it to be that. Let me rephrase it, it will take a lot for the vision of that garden to get to where it needs to be.
[00:11:45]
>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, and I think it's difficult too with students because sometimes they're so wrapped up in all their school work and things like that. So really pushing it to be that, you have to have a really dedicated not just student body but faculty advisor as well. I mean, that really helps getting it there.
[00:12:03]
That was one thing I wanted to talk to you about is one of our questions was vandalism with community gardens.
>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes.
>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, and apparently you guys experience that.
>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes, there's so much vandalism, but I think also, it speaks a lot for the culture down here.
[00:12:20]
There are certain things that you'll see that it's just, I guess it's not important down here. There will usually be a lot of cigarette butts in the garden, in the beds. And it's not good to smoke around the plants as they're growing because they take all that in and it could just wipe out all the plants, and those plants cost a lot of money.
[00:12:45]
[LAUGH] I mean, it all adds up. A $3, $4 plant here and there, that all adds up to over $300 worth of plants and products that you're having in the ground. There will also be trash bags, snack bags just in the ground, but also if you drive down the street, you see a whole bunch of people just littering and throwing stuff out of their cars.
[00:13:10]
So as much as if you drive outside of Charlotte and into, I call it the countryside of Charlotte.
>> Savannah Brown: [LAUGH]
>> Rebecca Byrd: The countryside of the small towns, unconquered, pass there. You see that there's a lot of land untapped, and it's beautiful, and there's no trash on the ground.
[00:13:34]
But if we did that here, there wouldn't be a lot of trash, or littering, and it just deteriorates the Earth. But I guess maybe it's just not, I guess, as important to people here, just having respect for the landscape.
>> Savannah Brown: Well, I think that could be something we could kind of segue into, just community gardens, do people not understand them?
[00:13:58]
Because in Charlotte we have a lot of community attempts to do community gardens, but it seems like people don't really like understand urban agriculture, I guess. So it's kind of foreign to them, so they don't maybe respect it as much as the outside country farmers, if that makes sense.
[00:14:17]
>> Rebecca Byrd: I see what you mean, yeah, I definitely agree. I like to drive up, I think it's Highway 49, and there's a cemetery right in Harrisburg and right behind it's like hey, we have plots for our community garden here. But every time I drive by I'm like, [LAUGH] where's the garden?
[00:14:36]
I just see headstones. So I've always wanted to figure out what are these other groups doing to get people involved, other than the flyers and all of that? And is urban farming, I guess, trying to help people that are in food deserts and lacking healthy food? Because good healthy food is very, very expensive.
[00:15:01]
>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, and so tell me, we could go to a little bit, how did you distribute the food from the garden and tell me just like where you distributed it and then kind of what and how the food was used?
>> Rebecca Byrd: So it was right before the end of the year, we would do our mass little harvest.
[00:15:19]
We would harvest all of it, but we would still have like a little bit there so we have our event people see there's stuff here.
>> Savannah Brown: Yeah. [LAUGH]
>> Rebecca Byrd: So it wouldn't be completely bare, but there'll still be some things there for people to look at. And so we didn't have a big membership, so it would be if you wanna take home a few things, that's fine.
[00:15:44]
But we had more than enough to give. We gave a couple of car-fulls, not the whole car-fulls, but the trunk was full [LAUGH] I guess trunk-fulls is a better word.
>> Savannah Brown: [LAUGH]
>> Rebecca Byrd: A few trunk-fulls' worth of fresh vegetables to the niner pantry. And I think that's been really helpful.
[00:16:05]
Also to see that we have a student pantry on campus, cuz I don't know if other schools do that too. Even though, I'm not sure if it's still true. I think the statistic is one in five students is hungry.
>> Savannah Brown: Mm-hm.
>> Rebecca Byrd: And I definitely think there's a place, there's definitely a need for that.
[00:16:26]
>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, so can you tell me what exactly is the pantry? Just kind of explaining the pantry-
>> Rebecca Byrd: So, the pantry, if you are a student, I'm not sure if it extends to faculty members. That sounds horrible. But, I know some of our faculty members, [GROANS] their financial situation is tough.
[00:16:48]
You have to meet certain criteria to be able to be serviced by the pantry but they have like everything there. In my head it's a full grocery store.
>> Savannah Brown: Really. And so can you just like, as a student like is there any, I'm not sure if you know this but is like an allotment of like how much food you can get or.
[00:17:06]
>> Rebecca Byrd: Yeah.
>> Savannah Brown: Yes, okay.
>> Rebecca Byrd: There's an allotment, I'm not sure what that is.
>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, that's okay.
>> Rebecca Byrd: But I know you can get a certain amount of things from each, I call each section of the grocery store but each section of the pantry. You can get like a certain number of items.
[00:17:21]
>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, honestly, I'll have to check out and see if other schools do that because it's really cool. And that's why I was really interested in talking to you because like food distribution, I think that Charlotte has the abundance of food but distributing it to people who maybe don't have access or live in food deserts or have a really tough time.
[00:17:42]
Getting the healthy produce. So, I really like that the UNCC Trinity Garden, it kind of like full-circle that makes sense?
>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes.
>> Savannah Brown: It was grown here and then went back to the students here. Do you know of any other community gardens contribute to the minor pantry or was it just guys?
[00:18:01]
>> Rebecca Byrd: I know it's just us but we also have you know, like Food Lion, Harris Teeter, they're also partners with the pantry so they'll donate you know some groceries every now and again, which I feel like is great. Now if we could get like Whole Foods Market or Trader Joes you know now that, that would be something.
[00:18:21]
But that's usually how it works.
>> Savannah Brown: One of the things I was gonna ask is, did you deal with composting at all?
>> Rebecca Byrd: No, but we wanted to get so many ideas especially about composting. I has like a brief idea but it was very brief. About having a beehive on campus.
[00:18:44]
>> Savannah Brown: Yeah.
>> Rebecca Byrd: Now, I know people are allergic to bees, and some people would try and go and take the bees and be vandals.
>> Savannah Brown: Right.
>> Rebecca Byrd: But I thought it was a good idea. [LAUGH] I thought it was a good idea.
>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, one of the things I'm interested in is food waste and composting.
[00:19:04]
So I was wondering and I think kinda what you're eluding to is more than just thinking of food as more than just produce, lettuce. Pollinators, I thought that was super cool, and bees, and the whole cycle of the food that we use. So, That's definitely a question I'm looking to ask all my interviewees is just kind of the life cycle of their food.
[00:19:28]
>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes.
>> Savannah Brown: So, well, you had kind of alluded to this, but did you guys advertise the club just here on campus, just kind of trying to get more members?
>> Rebecca Byrd: We did, we did the student organization fairs, we did both of those. We would have tabled events usually for Earth Day.
[00:19:51]
We would work with I think it's called the Campus Green Initiative, CGI. We would also work with, I think it's called the Earth Club. We work with them, too. Just to get the word out there like hey, we're a club, this is what we do. If you're interested in these other things, then maybe you'll interested in our thing too.
[00:20:14]
That's what we did. We also have an Instagram account which was just started so, we followed everybody who had- [LAUGH]. [INAUDIBLE] And you know most of them followed us back so we had the members of course like follow us, share the page. We also have a Facebook page and that gets like good hits as well.
[00:20:36]
So we try to do a lot to get the word out there, but I think it's also not everybody is into gardening like that as well, but I definitely think there's a place for everybody to be gardener. Cuz it's not hard. I know a lot of people say, I kill plants all the time, but I'm like it's at least in my years of living it hasn't been super hard to kill a plant.
[00:21:02]
>> Savannah Brown: Well, I think there's a difference too between like house plants.
>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes.
>> Savannah Brown: And gardening.
>> Rebecca Byrd: That's true.
>> Savannah Brown: That people can't really like, they'll like, like, kill all my plants in the house. There's a difference when they're out in the sun.
>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes.
>> Savannah Brown: Like, in the mulch, you know being fertilized.
[00:21:14]
>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes.
>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, I was thinking about, because I'm really looking at community gardens, and a lot of them are either are faith-based or
>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes.
>> Savannah Brown: They're working -- so they kind of have a preset community or volunteer base
>> Rebecca Byrd: Mm hm.
>> Savannah Brown: So I was wondering how you guys just get the word out to students.
[00:21:33]
But that makes total sense? And I actually found you guys through the Facebook page.
>> Rebecca Byrd: [LAUGHS]
>> Savannah Brown: If that makes sense? So what do you think are some of the major benefits of community gardening? It doesn't have to be like our community garden, just in general.
>> Rebecca Byrd: Why do you give people something to do and I definitely think there's just something like engaging about putting your hands in dirt.
[00:21:58]
I mean, maybe not like their hands, like especially if you've got a fresh manicure.
>> Savannah Brown: Yeah [LAUGH].
>> Rebecca Byrd: But if you know, putting your hands put some gloves into some dirt and you know, just feeling the dirt and if you get, I guess like maybe a flower or something from the store and you're transplanting it, just Getting those roots to loosen up a little bit.
[00:22:19]
Just, that process and putting it in the dirt, covering it, then watering it. It's just, there's something really relaxing about that. So I think that's also another benefit. There's just so much about it that's. Spun, the process of growing the plants, and watching them grow is the best part.
[00:22:41]
I think right now I've been bit again by the gardening bug. So I've started some sugar snap peas, and I started them, my gosh, I started them right before spring break. At the end of February. And I put them outside, which like I kinda felt bad about it just because it's been kind of cold too.
[00:23:03]
So I'm like, whoa. I was like, well, God, they'll just grow anyways.
>> Savannah Brown: [LAUGH]
>> Rebecca Byrd: So finally, two days ago, I got this really big long shoot out the ground and I was like, yes, yes, yes. So I was, I'm so happy about that. And I'm also working on some dutch irises as well.
[00:23:22]
But starting those bulbs is like, it's a process. So it hasn't been like the most, like rewarding yet, but it's still waking up in the morning to see, am I gonna get any new any new sprouts like coming out the ground. Am I gonna get new blooms on these flowers yet?
[00:23:39]
That type of thing is, it's the excitement of watching something grow that you worked on and that you helped become what it is, I guess.
>> Savannah Brown: Yeah.
>> Rebecca Byrd: Helping the plant become what it is. That's so weird but
>> Savannah Brown: No, I truly understand. I am I don't even like tomatoes, but I was growing tomatoes.
[00:23:58]
[LAUGH]
>> Rebecca Byrd: [LAUGH]
>> Savannah Brown: And I was so excited when I got my first bloom. And I was like, they're coming. And there is just truly something like. About nurturing something to life.
>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes.
>> Savannah Brown: Is such a good feeling. And also, being outside, just in the sun, and just kind of like what you said, putting your hands in something and really, I don't know.
[00:24:19]
I wish that, I think if you like gardening and you kind of grew up gardening, then even if it's just pots and, you know, plants. But, there's something special about, you know, just being outside and, so yeah. I think, I think exactly what you said. Definitely the benefits, and it's kind of hard to articulate those sometimes.
[00:24:39]
[LAUGH]
>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes. [LAUGH]
>> Savannah Brown: To be like, it's just fun to, like, get your hands in the dirt. But.
>> Savannah Brown: I definitely think that's true. And I think that's why there's such a thriving community garden community in Charlotte.
>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes.
>> Savannah Brown: Cuz I think people really value that, and they like to have their families and their friends get out and do it with them.
[00:24:59]
So what were the, I know you talked about vandalism, what were some of the other challenges you feel like you faced with the community garden?
>> Rebecca Byrd: Also just getting people to be involved. More than what they say they are. I think it's crazy, UNC Charlotte really thinks the community garden is a great thing.
[00:25:22]
And, you know, sometimes I feel like, in the past, some of the members we had just wanted to, like, be a part of the club, but when it came down to, like, well, who's gonna take care of the fence over the summer? Coming from someone, while I was in the club, I didn't have a car.
[00:25:41]
So I would walk over a mile in the heat, in the prime heat. [LAUGH]
>> Savannah Brown: [LAUGH]
>> Rebecca Byrd: In North Carolina. Every day, I would wake up every day at 6 AM, before it got too hot, to go to the garden to water. And sometimes, for me with my whole conditions, that would be way too much to do.
[00:26:02]
And so it just became, you know, I felt like I was doing all the work. And even though I'm the president, there have to be other people to step up to the plate. And I think a lot of people want to be, the community garden, they wanna be out there for the accolades, but they don't wanna put in the work and wake up early to go do the watering.
[00:26:26]
Or say, I'll help you out. I'll water two or three days here and there.
>> Savannah Brown: Right. I definitely can see where that would be challenging. And then it causes a little bit of burnout, if one person is just doing all of the work all the time. Even as much as you love something, it can't be 24/7, cuz I think that that can cause just a little bit of, if you know just somebody could help me.
[00:26:48]
So I understand where that would be challenging. I mean, I know we talked about this, but definitely with students over the summer.
>> Rebecca Byrd: Yeah.
>> Savannah Brown: That that would be challenging as well. So I read, I was just doing some some research before our interview, but I read in a 2016 article when you were the president of the club, you kind of talked about how you hoped it's sparked discussion surrounding food politics in Charlotte.
[00:27:11]
So kind of, what do you think community gardens are doing for this kind of food discussion that we're having?
>> Rebecca Byrd: That's a really good question.
>> Savannah Brown: That's okay, no pressure, I just think food, I mean, you alluded to it earlier, when you were talking about like food deserts and things.
[00:27:30]
I think Charlotte's going through, like, we have these really fancy boutique food sales, grocery stores, and then we have a really marginalized community of people who don't get healthy food. So do you think that community gardens are helping kind of alleviate that process? Or is it still just a problem of distribution?
[00:27:53]
>> Rebecca Byrd: I think that community gardens can take the role of being more advocating towards the issue of food distribution, because I think that's more what it, more when it comes down to. I know the community gardens, they can help with so much, and like provide produce and fruits and that type of thing.
[00:28:13]
But I think if they raise their voice and said, hey, we're doing this, but there's still people on this side of town that have to drive 30 minutes to get to a grocery store Or they don't have a bus line out there to, they can't take the, what is the bus system called down here, just the-
[00:28:32]
>> Savannah Brown: CATS.
>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes, they can't take the CATS to the grocery store.
>> Savannah Brown: Yeah.
>> Rebecca Byrd: I think that's really what the community gardening groups should, you know, focus on.
>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, and then just being maybe the voice, because as they deliver the produce, they can say that people are really hungry here in Charlotte.
[00:28:50]
People do really need fresh produce, and we're seeing it, and we're doing what we can to alleviate this, but maybe they just could be, like you said, the bigger advocate, or the bigger voice for the people. I totally, I think that's why I was so intrigued with community gardens, because I think there's a focus on community, but then there should be a discussion on, as much as we're providing for the people in our community, how can we help larger Charlotte.
[00:29:18]
>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes.
>> Savannah Brown: If that makes sense.
>> Rebecca Byrd: I agree.
>> Savannah Brown: So let's see, what do you kind of see for the future of community gardens?
>> Rebecca Byrd: Well, we might be gardening on Mars soon. I did watch that movie that came out, who was it? Not Ben Affleck. You know what movie I'm talking about.
[00:29:41]
>> Savannah Brown: I know what you're talking about. [LAUGH]
>> Rebecca Byrd: But I think the future of gardening, especially community gardening, will be more inclusive. Just reaching out to everybody, not just within the community, but reaching out to beekeepers, reaching out to. I don't think there's a real defined term for someone who's involved with butterflies.
[00:30:07]
I mean, I know their role within the ecosystem is important, but I don't think there's someone who houses butterflies, and just says, like okay, I send you off here. But I just think bringing in as many different people would be cool, and I also think maybe the future would be hydroponics, cuz that's like really cool, although I think that it might be a little expensive, but it doesn't have to be.
[00:30:37]
But I think that that could definitely be the future. And I think if they keep talking about, I know I'm looking out the window, I know I'm thinking of water. As the water levels start to rise, there's no water out here, as the water levels start to rise and the sea levels are rising, I think that might become more of a.
[00:30:59]
Not to say more of an option, but it looks like it might become like a reality that our coastal cities will be submerged underwater. And climate change, that's real too. So it's kind of like, what's gonna happen? So I think hydroponics might be the best option.
>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, I think climate change is something that's affecting farmers, and gardeners, and people who are outside, working.
[00:31:30]
And that's something we're kind of, with this project, want to kind of understand a little bit more where they're, how they're seeing it, and how it's coming from, but I think it's Johnson C. Smith who's doing hydroponics. I have to go back and double-check, but I think they got a whole program where they're kind of like getting that started.
[00:31:49]
So that'd be really cool if I could interview them, and kind of see how they're integrating that future of gardening in today's climate. I was gonna ask you about, my gosh, it just left me.
>> Rebecca Byrd: It's okay. [LAUGH]
>> Savannah Brown: [LAUGH] I was gonna say, when you were talking about hydroponics, I thought of Johnson C Smith.
[00:32:12]
Do you think that the university did enough to help you guys, just with the resources that they have? Kind of like, how could have the University of Charlotte maybe helped the community garden more? Or do you think they did enough?
>> Rebecca Byrd: Well, I think UNC Charlotte did more than enough for the community gardening club.
[00:32:34]
But what I do think is, maybe the student group itself could have done more.
>> Savannah Brown: Okay.
>> Rebecca Byrd: You know, I always think we could have reached out to, I think, Queens University. I had to think of the school. Queens University. I know they have a gardening club, and they have a really nice greenhouse, it's on top of the building, which I'm like, that's so cool.
[00:33:01]
We could have like reached out to them. We could have reached out to Johnson C Smith. We could have had a nice little intercollegiate community gardening network, but for future days.
>> Savannah Brown: [LAUGH] Yeah, I was gonna say, I ask that just because, I wonder how much influence the university could have on really promoting this idea of healthy food to people.
[00:33:29]
And it might not be something that the university wants to tackle, like kind of get involved in that discussion about food and food insecurity in Charlotte. But I do like that they, it's here within the system. Like it was grown here and given back to students. So I think in that way, they really did play a large role in helping kind of people who have food insecurities get healthy foods.
[00:33:53]
And I like that you said that they did a lot, because I think that sometimes, clubs that have really good intentions aren't supported by their universities.
>> Rebecca Byrd: I think it's funny you say that cuz, my gosh, I was gonna say something. And right as I was gonna say it, it left.
[00:34:11]
>> Savannah Brown: We both need a coffee.
>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes, I desperately need a coffee, even though it's like 11 something. Yes, it was about food insecurity, yes. I feel like the university, they could, you know, the university, I feel like they dip their hands in everything. As you can see, they're always dipping their hand into construction projects.
[00:34:33]
>> Savannah Brown: Yeah. [LAUGH]
>> Rebecca Byrd: Into gymnasiums that, we don't need five gymnasiums on campus, I just don't feel like that's necessary. But I don't want the chancellor to hear this and then-
>> Savannah Brown: No. [LAUGH]
>> Rebecca Byrd: I get a email. I kid, I kid, but I definitely think UNC Charlotte has the space, and has the resources to be for the people and, you know, be the voice for people in Charlotte.
[00:35:00]
Even those marginalized, even if you just drive down North Tryon, like you can see it. So, it's not too far out of the university's bubble. I just don't know if UNC Charlotte is really, if that's something they wanna be behind. And I don't, not to say I don't know why, I mean because.
[00:35:23]
They have people come to speak here all the time about racial politics, that type of thing, they even promote people going to vote. So I feel like this is just as important, cuz if the people can't eat, then how are they gonna vote? That sounds like?
>> Savannah Brown: [LAUGH]
[00:35:43]
>> Rebecca Byrd: Like one plus one equals apples, but I feel like they go hand in hand, especially when it comes down to the issues. And soon, election season's coming up, so I feel like it would be a good time for UNC Charlotte to really be the face of, not the face of the city, cuz that sounds a bit much.
[00:36:08]
But the face of the city, really, and, you know, speak up for things that not only like students, but the community and the city need to talk about. Because you don't see other people talking about it. I haven't seen, but then again my citizenship, I'm not a Charlotte citizen or a North Carolina resident.
[00:36:29]
I just live here for school. [LAUGH] I just live here for school. But I haven't seen any local council members talking about food insecurities in this area, and I just, not to say, I wonder why, but I really do wonder why, because it's a big problem.
>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, I think one thing you just said was how Charlotte is in, you know, they call us the crescent and the wedge city?
[00:36:54]
>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes.
>> Savannah Brown: It's like the wedge, there's kind of your wealthier population, and then the crescent surrounds it. And Charlotte, UNC Charlotte is in the crescent. And like what you said about the university's bubble. We are surrounded by communities that may experience food security, or be in a food desert.
[00:37:11]
And so it kind of is, we are kind of the face of this upper crescent that, you know. If we call UNC Charlotte a leading institution, we really should be practicing what we preach, and helping. And like you said, we host a lot of different things, and so maybe we should start talking about food a little bit more than we already do.
[00:37:31]
Yeah, I think that's super important, and I hope that the club can really revitalize, and incorporate all of this talk about food. And maybe this project could even, it's something sponsored by UNC Charlotte students. And so it could be something that kind of sparks that revitalization, again, at least in gardening.
[00:37:54]
But it does take a lot of volunteers, a lot of dedication, a lot of hard work, and not just by one person. And I think any farmer would tell you that, it's hard to run a big farm with one farmer, so.
>> Savannah Brown: Is there anything else about the community garden you kind of just would like to tell me about?
[00:38:18]
I think I was primarily interested in the food distribution, I thought. So you guys just did one harvest at the end of the growing season? And when would you typically take that to the pantry?
>> Rebecca Byrd: We would usually take it there like April, like end of March, actually no, not end of March, April, May.
[00:38:43]
Like right before it really starts to hot out.
>> Savannah Brown: Gotcha.
>> Rebecca Byrd: And sometimes we would do it in the fall as well, depending on what we planted or grew.
>> Savannah Brown: And would you just drop it off? You never-
>> Rebecca Byrd: No, we would go in there and put it in the fridge.
[00:38:58]
>> Savannah Brown: You would? Nice.
>> Rebecca Byrd: Talk to the people at the pantry. That type of thing.
>> Savannah Brown: Yeah. That's good. So there was some kind of interaction.
>> Rebecca Byrd: Mm-hm. And then we would record what we gave them.
>> Savannah Brown: Okay. Was there any best-sellers? I mean, that sounds like [LAUGH].
[00:39:13]
>> Rebecca Byrd: I don't know if there were any best-sellers, but I do know everyone was a fan of the rainbow Swiss chard.
>> Savannah Brown: That would be fun.
>> Rebecca Byrd: So it's definitely, not to say it's a easy grow, but it's really a easy grow, and it's a overabundant plant. So you cut it once, and it'll just keep growing.
[00:39:33]
>> Savannah Brown: Was there anything that was really difficult to grow? Well, the tomatoes, you said.
>> Rebecca Byrd: Tomatoes, but blueberries are especially difficult, because the pH in the soil has to be at certain level. It just, everything has to be perfect.
>> Savannah Brown: Yeah.
>> Rebecca Byrd: That's definitely like trickiest thing to grow, but everything else that we've done has done well.
[00:39:54]
>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, did you guys use fertilizer?
>> Rebecca Byrd: I believe we have, I'm not sure like what, but we don't like spray down anything. Just, you know, to keep it, not organic but just to keep it, you know-
>> Savannah Brown: But there was no, like, chemicals?
>> Rebecca Byrd: No.
>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, okay.
[00:40:12]
>> Rebecca Byrd: No chemicals used, it was all natural.
>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, was it hard to, and maybe this is where the greenhouse people came in, did they kind of know the soil level? You just said the pH levels, were there any other plants that needed like specific pH levels?
>> Rebecca Byrd: Well, outside of the garden, I know citrus fruits need a certain pH level, and so it's kind of a hit or a miss.
[00:40:42]
It's either perfect and it'll do well, or the plant hates it, and I'm gonna die right now. [LAUGH] I'm gonna die now. I hate this soil, it's not perfect, what are you doing? So I know those two tend to be really finicky when it comes to that. But I know there's an instrument you can use to test the pH and I’m like, this is so cool.
[00:41:11]
And you just like plop it in there and it’s like ding, good for whatever level it is. And if it’s not, there’s usually different acidic soil mixtures you can add to it. So that's definitely the biggest planting challenge, I guess.
>> Savannah Brown: Right, I know that some plants, some like full sun, some like shade and sun.
[00:41:37]
Were parts of the garden shaded, or is it mostly full sun?
>> Rebecca Byrd: It's mostly full sun, but I know in one area that's closer to, well, actually there's two areas. One area that's closer to the gondola, it gets shady a little bit. And then the side that's closer to, you're exiting Robinson, and you're going across the street to get to those apartments, I think it's called like Haven49 or something.
[00:42:11]
That's a really shaded area, but it'll still get full sun.
>> Savannah Brown: Got you.
>> Rebecca Byrd: So it'll just get shade for like the end part of the day, but it'll still be like full sun.
>> Savannah Brown: I'm trying to think if I have any other planting, I'm curious about anything else planting.
[00:42:29]
Did you do any flowers?
>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes, we do lantanas. We do, I believe, dahlias. We do brown-eyed Susans, and I think we did something else, but I can't remember off the top of my head. But yes, flowers, I love flowers because it's the beauty. But sometimes, part of me's like, I wanna get something I can eat.
[00:42:58]
>> Savannah Brown: [LAUGH]
>> Rebecca Byrd: [LAUGH] Like something I can really get into, and use it, and feel like I gained something from this. Cuz sometimes with flowers, even if they bloom the next year, I'm just kinda like, this is just some flowers. But with growing vegetables and fruits, it's kind of like, I get to enjoy this next year too.
[00:43:24]
It's that type of thing.
>> Savannah Brown: Did you find that people were nervous to garden? Was anyone ever scared to start gardening?
>> Rebecca Byrd: It's not necessarily, like, scared to garden, it's more scared of what might come out the ground. [LAUGH] Or like what might come towards you. It's more of like the spiders and the bugs and the bugs that bite, and it's not good, it's scary.
[00:43:51]
[LAUGH] It's a little bit scary sometimes, I'm not gonna lie.
>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, just like the outside critters.
>> Rebecca Byrd: Yeah, like, even I'm not a big bug person, the only bugs I'll tolerate, bees, butterflies, although a lot of people are like bees? Yeah, I like bees, cuz they're not gonna, at least to me, they haven't done anything to me.
[00:44:11]
They'll just land on my hand and then fly away. I won't even get stung, and I'm like my God, look at that!
>> Savannah Brown: [LAUGH]
>> Rebecca Byrd: But the worms, I'm fine. But the big spiders, not the little, the big spiders that, nope, that's it. And then every now and again, ticks, those really big beetles.
[00:44:32]
Or the, I don't know what they're called, there's a scientific word for them, but I call them the roly-polys.
>> Savannah Brown: Yes. [LAUGH]
>> Rebecca Byrd: I don't like those either.
>> Savannah Brown: [LAUGH]
>> Rebecca Byrd: They just, sickening. Centipedes, millipedes, uh-uh. Salamanders, they're cute, so I tolerate them. But other than that, I think it's more the outside life that really, it's kinda like, I don't do bugs.
[00:44:56]
But you'll get over it soon, but it's not all the time thing when you're gardening, so.
>> Savannah Brown: Yeah.
>> Rebecca Byrd: [LAUGH]
>> Savannah Brown: I understand. The one bug I really don't like are cicadas.
>> Rebecca Byrd: Ugh.
>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, and they come out of the ground. So those are weird.
>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes.
[00:45:10]
>> Savannah Brown: Yeah.
>> Rebecca Byrd: Those and stink bugs, they're the worst.
>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, I feel like North Carolina, I feel like we have an abundance of stink bugs for some reason. [LAUGHS]
>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes! And I just don't understand how, where did they come from? Why are they here? Why are they attracted to being near my space?
[00:45:28]
>> Savannah Brown: Yeah.
>> Rebecca Byrd: Well, not necessarily near my space, but just here in general. Like I just really would like to know. [LAUGH] I really wanna know, because they've just, when I was gardening in my, I have a little patio garden on my porch. This is like a side note, I hope I haven't bothered my neighbor downstairs, because I attached three, I got them from Home Depot.
[00:45:54]
It's like three railing planters.
>> Savannah Brown: Yeah.
>> Rebecca Byrd: And I love them, like you just attach them to the railing with some steel zip ties. They're all-season, all-weather strong. But like, the water drains straight out, and goes, like, straight downstairs. So I'm like, I hope my neighbor isn't bothered by seeing all this water drip down in the morning, for his morning cigarette.
[00:46:16]
[LAUGH]
>> Savannah Brown: It's funny you say that, because I also live in a apartment complex, and I had a neighbor above who did the planters, and the water would drip down. But I would just put my plants out there, so that they would get some of the water.
>> Rebecca Byrd: [LAUGH]
[00:46:32]
>> Savannah Brown: So hopefully, it never bothered me too much. But I did feel bad sometimes when I watered mine, I knew it'd drip down again, so that's definitely a challenge of urban gardening.
>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes.
>> Savannah Brown: And again kind of feeling like you might be bothering someone, like with smells or bugs or whatever.
[00:46:50]
Which I think, maybe not here, but do you think that would turn anybody off from community gardening, being a nuisance almost?
>> Rebecca Byrd: I think it could, cuz sometimes the people are like, you have to fertilize your plant again?
>> Savannah Brown: [LAUGH]
>> Rebecca Byrd: I mean, well, yeah, that's kind of how it works.
[00:47:07]
[LAUGH]
>> Savannah Brown: Yeah.
>> Rebecca Byrd: Why are you going to Home Depot to buy another type of fertilizer? I was like, well,I also feel like the nurseries and the garden centers, they do a good job of getting you to buy things. It's kind of like how Babies R Us and those type of stores, they prey on new moms, because they know you're going to buy all this stuff, even though chances are you don't really need it.
[00:47:30]
So I have three different types of fertilizer that they all do the same thing, although one is specifically for citrus fruit. But, I'm kinda like, what, do I have a problem? I just keep buying things.
>> Savannah Brown: Yeah.
>> Rebecca Byrd: I think that, I mean if you have a spending problem, that might turn you off from gardening, just having to buy things, I mean, but it's fun.
[00:47:49]
I mean, who doesn't like shopping? But I definitely feel that small inconveniences of gardening, like, well, like this plant, it's not like sprouting in two days, and it's been in full sun, you know. Well you know, sometimes it's the germination time, sometimes it's ten days, sometimes it's 20 days.
[00:48:10]
How's the soil? Have you been keeping it moist? What have you been doing? Sometimes those tips and tricks, have you tried rotating your planters to getting more sun? Those type of things sometimes help. Have you been adding some coffee grounds to the dirt?
>> Savannah Brown: Yeah.
>> Rebecca Byrd: Little things here and there, I think can help.
[00:48:34]
And Google is always the best helper.
>> Savannah Brown: Yeah. Well, and I think too it is kind of just experimenting a little bit.
>> Rebecca Byrd: Yeah.
>> Savannah Brown: Because when I first planted my peppers, they were not doing good. They just kept looking so sad, and I was like I thought they wanted full sun, or maybe it's too much sun, so I kept moving them around the patio but I think with gardening, especially people new to gardening, it might be a little bit of a turn off.
[00:48:56]
And you're like nothing's happening but it really is just being like, well, maybe I need to do a little research on maybe they like to be out in the sun for some of the day, or maybe they need more water than I was giving them or something like that.
[00:49:08]
So I think one of my suggestions kind of like what you were saying is for new gardeners like don't give up.
>> Rebecca Byrd: Yeah, don't give up, just keep going.
>> Savannah Brown: Just keep going.
>> Rebecca Byrd: Just keep trying. Go on Google, look at a whole bunch of articles. YouTube too.
[00:49:22]
>> Savannah Brown: Yeah.
>> Rebecca Byrd: A lot of urban gardeners, urban farmers, they have like YouTube Channels that are really, really like they're really fun. They're also like kind of corny, but they're cute and they're helpful. And they give you all the tips and tricks that you need. I think, when was it?
[00:49:38]
Over the weekend, I had just bought a little mini meyer lemon citrus bush. So, I'm kind of like, okay,like how tall is this going to get? Like is it going to be like, like this forever. I am going to get any fruit this summer? Am I not?
>> Savannah Brown: [LAUGH]
[00:49:52]
>> Rebecca Byrd: Because like, to me like, that's like the main thing, what am I going to get from this. [LAUGH].
>> Savannah Brown: Yeah.
>> Rebecca Byrd: That's sounds horrible, right? I'm focusing more on that. And so I went on YouTube. I'm like, okay, so what do I do with it? There's blooms, there's flowers on it.
[00:50:05]
Do I need to self-pollinate this with a little paint brush? Do I just leave it? Do I try and find some bees and just sit it there? What do I need to do? So YouTube definitely, YouTube and Google have been the biggest help for gardening and then if you go to the garden centers just asking the people that work there, because they usually.
[00:50:28]
Now if you're going to like pike nursery, not Home Depot or Lowes because sometimes you know that's like a hit or miss.
>> Savannah Brown: Yes, they do. But you know sometimes you do have to go to a nursery or garden center because it's people that are raising those plants.
[00:50:40]
>> Rebecca Byrd: Yeah.
>> Savannah Brown: That really know how to help you. Did you ever have to self-pollinate in the community garden or the bees-
>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes.
>> Savannah Brown: You did have to.
>> Rebecca Byrd: Some things, we did self-pollinate like the strawberries, we help the bees a little bit which I always think is good just it's like two seconds just to go around a little paintbrush and tap tap here, and a tap tap there, it's easy but it's fun, it's all about getting that perfect moment, I guess.
[00:51:10]
It sounds awkward.
>> Savannah Brown: How do you self-pollinate? I have never done that.
>> Rebecca Byrd: So it sounds like, well, it sounds very sexual when you talk about it but you're just waiting for the perfect moment when the pollen is I don't know how to describe it but I think it's called the pistol.
[00:51:28]
Inside it's super duper, I don't know any other word to describe it, super duper lubricated, and then you tap the pollen and you brush it on there. And then you go to each different bloom and you repeat it.
>> Savannah Brown: Okay I've never done that but I definitely know exactly what you're talking about.
[00:51:46]
Like when a flower, when you get one that honestly they look like kind of wet on the inside-
>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes.
>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, okay, so was it for strawberries?
>> Rebecca Byrd: Mm-hm.
>> Savannah Brown: Or was there anything else you had to do it for?
>> Rebecca Byrd: Not that I can recall, I've done it for my meyer lemons even though they didn't require it, because it's a self-pollinating tree, so it doesn't need it, but you know, everyone's is like it doesn't like [CROSSTALK] it doesn't hurt it if you do it.
[00:52:14]
So I'm like, well, why not? But I definitely think that helps, especially with all the technology we've got in this area, throws the bees off from traveling and getting to where they need to go. I definitely think that helps and especially if you live in an apartment complex.
[00:52:34]
I haven't seen any bees, but also then again, our landscapers, not to say they suck, but they don't put out lots of flowers and stuff. [LAUGH]
>> Savannah Brown: Right.
>> Rebecca Byrd: So we're not gonna see lots of bees or bee action over there. So I definitely think pollinating by hand is a necessity, but if we could get these that would be great.
[00:52:59]
>> Savannah Brown: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. I never really thought about that, I mean if we don't have bees and you're not somewhere with self-pollinating plant, you kinda have to do it. But, yeah.
>> Rebecca Byrd: [LAUGH]
>> Savannah Brown: So I guess it's just kinda my final question is what was your favorite part about being in the community garden club and being president.
[00:53:19]
>> Rebecca Byrd: My favorite part of course is like telling people about the garden but also just like being there gardening. Like that, it’s just so relaxing, it’s just like just putting your hands in some dirt is just you know. Now some things about gardening is just like weeding.
>> Savannah Brown: [LAUGH]
[00:53:36]
>> Rebecca Byrd: Like weeding those beds a headache, horrible but pruning the plants like that type of thing just taking the dead leaves off. It's like that pattern of going to each, I guess, each plant and doing that over and over, it's just there's something like, even though it's like methodical it's just relaxing.
[00:53:59]
It's like, this go here, do this, it's perfect. All right, do the next one. It's just, it's relaxing. Very, very relaxing. I mean it was a great experience. I love being a part of the gardening club, even though it was hard. [LAUGH]
>> Savannah Brown: Yes.
>> Rebecca Byrd: It was hard doing a lot of the hard work, getting other people involved I really enjoyed it, it made it made my time at UNC Charlotte like, I made it nice.
[00:54:28]
>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, and I think, I mean, just from listening to our interview, it just sparks so much joy to be a gardener even if you're just like you've got three plants at home or something. So I hope from this interview, we can help others just feel like it's not scary.
[00:54:43]
You can do it and it can be a really fun, relaxing activity. And benefit your community. Overall whole.
>> Rebecca Byrd: Exactly, it really can, even if it's you're starting off small. Start maybe with a bamboo plant. You know those those do well you know if you put in your bathroom.
[00:55:05]
It does perfect there you don't really have to do much just water it once a week. Just keep the shower mist juices. It'll be fine. And then if you find that that's doing well start off with like some peas, yes please I always feel like every first grader always does like peas.
[00:55:26]
At least I did peas. [LAUGH] I remember doing peas in my classroom and watching that grow was easy. And then, of course, they have lots of like grow kits at Home Depot, if you wanna start there and they some like herb. You could grow it right in your kitchen, they give you the containers, it has directions on it.
[00:55:48]
So it comes with directions so it can't be all that bad, although I will say sometimes you will get a dud seed. So sometimes the dud seeds, don't feel bad, sometimes we all get dud seeds. It happens, so a dud seed shouldn't deter you from being a gardener.
[00:56:06]
>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, I had two great peppers. So I had three pepper seeds, two of them, beautiful, did the best. One of them just couldn't It just didn't take, and that just happens. [LAUGH]
>> Rebecca Byrd: That's usually how it happens. You'll get a good majority that, they'll sprout and they'll be fine.
[00:56:22]
And then you'll always get those one or two that you're like, well, I did everything perfect, all you had to do was just grow. That's all you had to do. The sun is shining, just say, okay, I'm gonna sprout now. That's all. But it's a great process, it's fun.
[00:56:39]
>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, it is fun.
>> Rebecca Byrd: There's something back to nature about it. It's, you know, when you're gardening, it's like you can't really, not saying you can't really be on your phone while you're doing that, I mean, you can. But if you wanna get dirt all on the touchpad.
[00:56:52]
>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, really be involved in the process.
>> Rebecca Byrd: It takes you outside of technology and Facebook and all of that stuff, and just outside, just doing something. It's relaxing, it's-
>> Savannah Brown: No, I totally agree. They'd be like, why are you rotating your plants again? And I was like, leave me alone.
[00:57:12]
It's nice to just be out here. And I would just trim two leaves and prune them, but it still is nice to just put your phone away. Especially when we're surrounded by technology all the time, gardens really can be this place of just peace, and refuge, and relaxation.
[00:57:31]
And I think, community gardens, if you're experiencing that, while also you're producing food, it's just such a win-win.
>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes, exactly.
>> Savannah Brown: Are there any other questions I should have asked you about the community garden?
>> Rebecca Byrd: No questions. But I guess this will be my one little moment in the interview to say this.
[00:57:51]
I'm definitely thankful for my childhood, I guess my childhood experiences in gardening. I remember as a kid, my mom, in the summertime, we go to this mega store out in, I think it's in, trying to figure out the directions on the map. It's like southwestern Massachusetts, called Mahoney's, and it's the best.
[00:58:17]
To me, it's the best place ever, [LAUGH] it's the best place ever. And I have so many fond memories going to the store with my mom. She would say, all right, so what do you wanna plant? And so she would let me pick out some things. And she'd say, well, we can't grow that because we don't get full sun over there, so you have to pick something else.
[00:58:33]
So that experience, and also, my grandmother, she judges daffodil contests. It sounds so weird, so-
>> Savannah Brown: No, I love that.
>> Rebecca Byrd: So she lives in Rockford, Illinois, and so they have a daffodil growing competition. And so she grows daffodils, and this is what she does. So every time we would go to her house, she would have, I wish I brought a picture of it.
[00:58:59]
She has the most beautiful front and back yards, flowers everywhere, different types of daffodils all in a little field. It's kind of like, how does one have all this time and dedication to grow this? And she's very organised, she has the little tags and when she grew it, and what type of variety, and the scientific name, handwritten.
[00:59:24]
[LAUGH] I'm one of those, you know, you just could have put regular shmegular daffodils. I planted this on February 1st, right here. But she really gets into it, and that's her thing, so I'm just happy that I had those types of experiences that really made me want to garden now.
[00:59:44]
>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, for sure. Do you think people need that to want to garden, or do you think it just kind of helps?
>> Rebecca Byrd: I definitely think it helps, but you know, I definitely think, how could you not? I mean, just walking around the street, how could you not say, one day, I wanna have an apple tree.
[01:00:05]
Just nature, the world around you, it's just so beautiful. How could you not wanna say, I just wanna grow a little plant or something. It's just, not to say, I don't understand how people don't like it, but I don't understand how people don't like it or see that it adds value.
[01:00:25]
Not even just for the Earth, just for self. I guess it could be a part of, well, it is a part of self-care. Yeah, just having something to relax and take time away from life. But it's a full circle type of thing that you get to take part in.
[01:00:44]
It's cool.
>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, I mean, I think the same thing. I grew up with just a garden. And one of my favorite days of the year was when we'd go to the nursery and we could each pick out something that we were gonna grow and like take care of.
[01:00:56]
The same thing, my mom was like, we have a full sun garden, so you can’t have these certain things. But even though I didn't, maybe, as a kid, realize all the intricacies of gardening, it still was just a love for working outside and being able to pick something and watch it grow.
[01:01:12]
Kind of like your little pet, like you're just taking care of it. So yeah, I totally see where you're coming from, and I definitely think that for me, now, is why I like to at least have a couple plants on my patio. Cuz I'm like, even if I can't have a full garden, I still like to have a little something.
[01:01:29]
>> Rebecca Byrd: Exactly, I don't know, I always feel like, because of my gardening experience, I'm like, ugh, you know, some days, in graduate school, these professors, I'm not trying to give it to them. [LAUGH]
>> Savannah Brown: [LAUGH]
>> Rebecca Byrd: Sometimes I'm just like, I could just leave this all behind and quit school and just move out to Harrisburg and have a farm.
[01:01:50]
But then I'm like, having a farm is expensive in itself. So I'm like, I can't really do that either. [LAUGH] But it's always, I would leave it all behind just to have a farm in the countryside with only a landline phone.
>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, I think my overall dream, one day, is to have a farm to table area with my farm.
[01:02:14]
And people can come for dinner and I can just be like, here's all my produce, here's for dinner. I know, i think about that too. You know, my grand dream, if I had all the money to do whatever I wanted, that would be it.
>> Rebecca Byrd: Exactly, it's perfect, what more do you need?
[01:02:29]
>> Savannah Brown: I know. All right, well, thank you so much, I'm gonna go ahead and turn this off.