Farming

Carie Deneau is 59 years old, and has been working at Tega Hills Farm for a little over five years. Her primary job duties include product weighing, seeding, and seed transfers to the greenhouses. Prior to her work at Tega Hills Farm, she worked in the health care field and Hospice for just over 20 years, eventually leaving due to burnout to pursue farm work. She once worked at a large-scale produce farm in Delaware in her early 20s, so she had enough early training to help ease her into farming once again when she applied to work at Tega Hills Farm. Topics in this interview include transitioning from her previous field of work to farming, musings on scientific farming and the future of farming, and production of healthy food for introduction back into the American diet.

[tabby title='Tape Log']

Time	Subject
0:00:11	Introduction, Interviewer
0:00:39	Introduction, Carie Deneau
0:03:18	Starting off in health care and Hospice, and burn out
0:04:20	Working on a produce farm in her youth
0:05:49	A family member introduces her to Tega Hills Farm
0:07:03	Working at Tega Hills Farm
0:09:37	Daily/Weekly job duties
0:10:49	Enjoyment from producing healthy food to counteract the unhealthy American diet
0:12:52	Seasonal produce and work
0:14:22	Being a grandmother, church involvement, and home gardening
0:15:22	Taking home composting scraps and learning from Mark Robinson
0:20:58	The importance of smaller, traditional farms over large scale farms
0:25:37	Final thoughts on risk and community

[tabby title='Transcript']

[00:00:11]

>> MG: This is Mike Gregory, graduate student at UNC Charlotte in the oral history program. I'm back here at Tega Hills farm talking with another worker on the farm. Her name is Carrie, hi Carrie.

>> CD: Hi.

>> MG: It's nice to be able to talk to you today. Carrie, tell me a little bit about yourself.

[00:00:31]

We'll get into how you go the Tega Hills Farm in just a little bit. But tell me a little about your background, where are you originally from?

>> CD: I'm originally from Baltimore, Maryland. I was born in 1960.

>> MG: Okay.

>> CD: So I grew up in that era. From there I moved to Ellicott City and graduated from high school in Ellicott City, Maryland.

[00:00:57]

I graduated in 1978.

>> MG: Okay, so how did you end up in Fort Mill, South Carolina?

>> CD: We moved down here, we lived in Delaware before we moved here. I moved down here in 2008 and my daughter was down here ahead of me. She moved down here to go to Bible College and I came down to visit her while she was in school down here.

[00:01:27]

We just fell in love with the area, and ended up coming down.

>> MG: Wonderful, did you always know you wanted to get into farming?

>> CD: I think so. I loved it ever since a little girl. I visited my uncle's farm when I was a little girl, and just, I loved that.

[00:01:53]

I have family on my mom's side who were a lot of farmers. Farmers and teachers. I have an uncle who lived in Middletown, Maryland who was a big dairy farmer. And gardens, they all, all my family always had gardens [LAUGH]

>> MG: Yeah so what kind of gardens did they have?

[00:02:19]

>> CD: Vegetable and fruit, blueberries, and just, your regular stuff you can grow tomatoes, cucumbers, peppers and squash.

>> MG: And the typical outdoor conventional garden?

>> CD: Yes, yes.

>> MG: So quite the change from going from conventional gardening to suddenly we're here with hydroponics and Greenhouses. it's quite a difference.

[00:02:48]

>> CD: Yeah, I think the Greenhouse gardening is the way to go. [LAUGH] As opposed to fields and product in fields.

>> MG: It certainly allows for a lot more year-round productivity.

>> CD: Mm-hm, yeah.

>> MG: So tell me a little bit about your background. What did you do after high school and did you immediately get in to, into farming or did you have kind of a life before?

[00:03:13]

>> CD: No, actually, I was in the healthcare field for a while. I was doing as a CNA and doing home healthcare. Now I entered hospice care for a while, and then I got to the point where I wanted to be back outside and not dealing with fear. I got burned out doing the hospice work.

[00:03:43]

>> MG: I Imagine.

>> CD: And you're dealing with a lot of with sick people when you're in healthcare and it can wear you down. So I just, I always longed to be back doing this kind of stuff. And I got hired here and just been so happy ever since Did you leave the healthcare field and and go immediately to work here or did you did you do something in between them?

[00:04:13]

No, I I did that, I came here to here. Yeah, I did have I have worked on a farm there before this farm Okay When I before I moved here I lived in Delaware I worked at a produce farm.

>> MG: At a produce farm?

>> CD: A produce farm, yes, mm-hm.

[00:04:32]

>> MG: How long did you work at the produce farm?

>> CD: A couple years, yes, but I was younger, I was in my early twenties. And it was a large-scale produce farm, and they had pick your own, and they had market and I liked doing that, and I did that until I got married and started having kids.

[00:04:53]

And then I took years off when I was raising my kids, and then went into the health care field. When my kids were a little older, I went into that field, but I homeschooled my kids, as well. And so I've spent those years just you know that was my focus.

[00:05:14]

Then when they were a little older I went back to work.

>> MG: Okay. So. [LAUGH] So when you decided to make the leap.

>> CD: Okay.

>> MG: From healthcare to wanting to get into farming. And how did you settle on Tega Hills Farm? Tell me about the process, what drew you here?

[00:05:34]

Or was it one stop of many, trying to get into the field? Just tell me a little bit about that.

>> CD: No, not really, what happened was, a friend, family member kind of like.

>> CD: I ran into her and she was dating a guy who worked here. And so when I ran into her she's just, hey, how are you doing?

[00:05:59]

Or whatever. You still working with hospice? And I said, well, actually I'm trying to do another job. She said well what do you want to do? And really I kind of said it jokingly, I'm like I want to be a farmer. I almost said it as a joke, but it just kind of came out.

[00:06:16]

And she said, hey I know of a place that's hiring. Why don't you go down there and talk to them? So I did it, I came down here and that was the story, I got hired, so it's-

>> MG: So what did you think when you came from the more conventional farming to seeing Tega Hills farm and seeing the greenhouses?

[00:06:39]

It's a non traditional form by Mile standards it's a small farm it's only two acres of land.

>> CD: Yes.

>> MG: But only part of that has Greenhouses on them. So tell me like-

>> CD: It's amazing for the amount of produce it produce on a small amount of land that it has.

[00:06:59]

To me it was amazing. It was I was. By it. When I first started working here, I was working with the microgreens. With a lady named Pat, who I'm not sure, you probably haven't met her because she's not here today. But she's a lady who's in her 70s and I fell in love with Pat right away.

[00:07:20]

>> MG: I met her the first time I came to see her. She was picking cilantro, she's a very sweet lady.

>> CD: Yeah, and so her and I worked with the microbrewery, and said, I've had several different positions, over the years that I've been here. But yeah, I was just amazed how things, and I wish I haven't been able to share with you some pictures of the changes I went through the years because they've really done so many improvements around here that it's the transformation is just a joy to be a part of to watch happen.

[00:08:02]

Like building things and building new markets and the just the things Different things.

>> MG: And you said you've been here for how many years?

>> CD: Five, five years.

>> MG: For five years. When you first came to Tega Hills Farm, did you have any hesitation with working with greenhouses?

[00:08:19]

Was it a little overwhelming or was it a challenge that you were-

>> CD: No, no it was they taught me what they wanted me to do, just showed me a few times and it's not difficult work to do. It can be strenuous, and it can be, but it's a system, it's really a system, and it runs smoothly when you just keep up with the process.

[00:08:49]

So, here we got I'm doing seeds, I'm dropping seeds into here, and then in two weeks, they go from here onto the water, so and it's just a system.

>> CD: I know you can't see this but-

>> MG: I've taken plenty of pictures.

>> CD: Okay.

>> MG: So when we all get to listen to this there will be pictures.

[00:09:13]

>> CD: Okay.

>> MG: Yeah, absolutely, so we will get to see it.

>> CD: Okay.

>> MG: Don't worry.

>> CD: [LAUGH]

>> MG: But tell me what your typical job is here at the farm. I know it may change a little bit depending on the day or the season, but tell us a little bit about what you do.

[00:09:36]

>> CD: Well, usually in the mornings I'll harvest lettuce, and then in the afternoons, twice a week, I'm the one that packs the orders for the restaurants. And then, cuz I only work part-time, I'm here three days. For two of the days I pack restaurant orders in the afternoon, and then on the other day I plant the seeds, right here, this.

[00:10:06]

>> MG: Okay.

>> CD: Which is what I'm gonna be doing here while I, yeah. And then, yeah then we harvest in the morning and then in the afternoon I'm either packing or seeding. So that's what I do.

>> MG: Okay. Do you have a particular job here that you you find most enjoyable, or maybe even therapeutic?

[00:10:31]

Cuz you mentioned you came from healthcare, from where this is-

>> CD: Yes.

>> MG: It's nothing but unfortunately dealing with sick people. And then in hospice, you're dealing with kind of ultimate fate.

>> CD: Right.

>> MG: And now you come here and you're giving life. You're bringing life to things.

[00:10:44]

>> CD: That's true, yes, yes. Yeah mm-hm. Yes and I love just the idea of producing healthy food. That means a lot to me to be a part of offering something that's gonna be good for people to eat.

>> MG: Yeah.

>> CD: Because I'm one that really believe that the american diet right now is pretty poor.

[00:11:16]

People just eat a lot of crap, a lot of stuff that's causing people to be sick. Like I was in healthcare it was like, I knew a lot of reasons why people are sick, even young people are sick in the 50s and 60s. I think it's diet related a lot of it.

[00:11:36]

So I like the fact that I'm helping provide good food.

>> MG: It's why I asked it.

>> CD: [LAUGH] Yeah.

>> MG: If,

>> MG: Come on,

>> MG: How does your job maybe change seasonally, cuz we know that greenhouses are not entirely insulated-

>> CD: Yeah.

>> MG: From the weather. And with you doing seeding and planting.

[00:12:15]

>> CD: Mm-hm.

>> MG: Does that change, or does how you have to handle that or deal with that change depending on the seasons or weather?

>> CD: Well, the lettuce we grow year round and the micro greens grow year round. And the things that seasonal are the outside beds, where we have things like broccoli and onions and I can't think of everything that's out there, string beans we've grown out there.

[00:12:44]

But and in house five is where we grow the tomatoes and the peppers, and that's more seasonal.

[00:12:50]

>> [MUSIC]

[00:13:03]

>> CD: Yeah, I guess in house five they grow eggplant, they're seasonal things. So, like for even right now, in the end of March, and the beginning of April, they're starting to plant the tomatoes and I think it's in house five in a couple weeks we'll be able to start harvesting them.

[00:13:24]

>> MG: Okay.

>> CD: [CROSSTALK]

>> MG: No, that's fine. You mentioned that you do a lot of the packaging and preparation to send off to some of the chefs that are in Charlotte. Do you get to deal with them directly or do you just hand things off? How does the exchange work?

[00:13:42]

>> CD: Well, Mindy usually takes the orders and then I get the orders down here. I just pack them in delivery totes, they call them and put them in the cooler with the name of the restaurant in it, and then, somebody else delivers them. So I really don't get to meet chefs or anything like that.

[00:14:08]

Occasionally one will come in, or if they do a on farm pick-up, I might meet them.

>> MG: Okay. So you said you work here part-time. Do you do something else in the meantime?

>> CD: Well, I'm a grandmother. [LAUGH]

>> MG: That's a job.

>> CD: I'm involved with my church quite a bit and just stay busy.

[00:14:33]

I do own a little bit of land out in York, so I have about 35 minute drive to get into work, and at home I have garden at home too, so.

>> MG: What all do you grow at home?

>> CD: Well, my goal, or my desire's to grow herbs more than anything.

[00:14:55]

And I also have a little project that I'm doing it's called Burma composting, where I'm composting with worms. And my goal with that is to use the Burma composting for getting the soil all ready for organic growing.

>> CD: I know really actually in the future I would love to do that on a larger scale, but for now, I'm just in the beginning stages.

[00:15:34]

>> MG: Is there anything that you've learned, say, during your time here, during your five years here, working at Tega Hills Farm? Cuz you and I conversed a little bit before the interview, and you said science is kind of the future of-

>> CD: Uh-huh.

>> MG: It's the way to go as far as gardening.

[00:15:49]

Have you learned anything from here that you've been able to apply maybe yourself in your own home garden? Or anything you're looking forward to maybe trying?

>> CD: One of the things that is an advantage of working here, a little perk, is that I can take home The scraps, you know, and use those for composting.

[00:16:12]

And I also recycle some of the soil that comes from the growing of the microgreens, I can take some of that soil, and use that in a potting mix that I like to make for my home gardens. Mark is a wealth of knowledge, I mean, I can ask him, really, anything about anything.

[00:16:34]

And he takes the time to just talk to you, and hang out with you. And he's a very, very good employer, I enjoy Mark and Mindy both.

>> MG: Yeah.

>> CD: I'm trying to think of.

>> MG: When we interviewed the two of them not too long ago, Mindy joked that there never seemed to be anything that he didn't think he could do.

[00:17:01]

He would set his eyes on something, and then just figure out how to try it, and do it.

>> CD: Right, I know, yeah.

>> MG: And I think this is kind of evidenced with the greenhouses, and the amount of microgreens, and experimenting with different kinds of microgreens.

>> CD: Yeah.

[00:17:18]

You have to have a lot of fortitude to be a farmer, because I've seen crops and different things they've tried not work out. And they have to just press on, keep going through and ride through the losses, and still keep their chin up, and they do. They're awesome.

[00:17:45]

We have good seasons and bad seasons, and they've lost things, and just had to work through it, just-

>> MG: Could you tell me, maybe, about one of the bad seasons, what happened?

>> CD: [NOISE] Well.

>> CD: Let me see if I can think of something here.

>> CD: There's times, sometimes, when we're harvesting, and we have to clean stuff up.

[00:18:18]

If, you know, I don't know, there's a disease or something, it does happen from time to time. And then they have to adjust, you know, and figure out what caused it, and work through it. But sometimes, you'll lose some of the product in the process of, you know, just life on the farm.

[00:18:42]

>> MG: Yeah, I guess its a little harder when you have a greenhouse, and you don't have the vast fields these commercial farms have. Your loss really can affect you in a much smaller farm like this.

>> CD: Yeah.

>> MG: I'm curious, going back to something that we mentioned prior to the interview, which is, science is kinda the way to go as far as farming goes.

[00:19:13]

Having grown up with conventional farming, and with that thought. And especially now, working here at Tega Hills Farm, where we have these greenhouses, and we have hydroponics, and where do you see farming going in the near future? Do you, let me preface this and say that one aspect we have been exploring, during this whole project, is the encroachment of urbanization.

[00:19:48]

And moving out farms from the urban environment, and pushing them farther and farther away. But also, in some ways, moving them out entirely. Where you have urban farms that can't really survive via traditional means, but maybe the owners don't have the expertise or the money to convert. And so sometimes, these larger cities, they keep building up and building up, and the farms, they're going away.

[00:20:21]

Tega Hills Farm is kind of the epitome of an urban farm. We're not just a few feet from a road, and cars going by and there are houses, townhouses across the way there.

>> CD: They haven't been there that long, just came up.

>> MG: And a major grocery store, we've got a Publix there right down the road.

[00:20:39]

It's building up here. Where do you see these urban farms going? Do you think that they're gonna have to embrace the more scientific farming? Or do you think there's still really a place for the traditional farm?

>> CD: Well, my concern and thoughts are that I think people are too dependent on the large-scale industrial-type farming, and that the local farm is essential to every community.

[00:21:17]

Like for instance, even here, you can produce a good crop, a good product, and make it financially beneficial to do it without a lot of land. But I just think that the communities need to have the farms. They need to have local, I guess, local sources of produce and food, and not be so dependent on Mexico, and California, and.

[00:21:53]

So it's just essential that we keep farms going. And that didn't really answer that question, did it?

>> MG: No, you did, and.

>> MG: I'm curious, have you ever thought about maybe what our local farms, like Tega Hills Farm, could do to reach out to the public, to try and turn them away from these big, from consuming from these large commercial enterprises, to the more personable, affordable, smaller local farms?

[00:22:35]

Cuz I think that one thing that we, as Americans, well for one, we want everything right now, we want it in large quantities. But we also have this misconception that everything that is produced in large scale in these grocery stores is cheaper, when that's not necessarily the case.

[00:22:55]

>> CD: Right, mm-hm.

>> MG: How do you think we can go about reaching these people, to turn them away from that, or at least, if not turn them away, to get them to come back and look at the small farms?

>> CD: Just education, people have to be educated. There's the other thing about these larger farms, is that they have to pick their produce when it's still, when it's not ripe.

[00:23:25]

And when it's not ripe, it doesn't have the nutrition in it that it would have if it was allowed to ripen before it was harvested. And just, even all the pesticides and herbicides that have to go into large-scale farming is causing our food to be unhealthy. Unhealthy for people to eat, and it's just spilling over to the healthcare field, like I mentioned earlier.

[00:23:56]

So just to, people need to value, or understand the value of fresh, local food. And it's just a matter of teaching And people, I think. I mean, you're right about the convenience, people want it convenient, but when people put a value on something, it changes the way they think about it.

[00:24:23]

>> MG: Yeah, I think we definitely need to get away from the culture of the bottom line. And like you said, go into education. One thing I've thought about, and I'm curious what you think about this, perhaps occasionally bringing people such as yourself into local schools, public schools, to do a presentation on some of our local farms.

[00:24:50]

>> CD: Mindy does that.

>> MG: She does?

>> CD: Yes, she does.

>> MG: I know they offer tours here. I didn't know that.

>> CD: Yeah, she goes to schools, and does little talks and little demonstrations.

>> MG: Well, every little bit helps.

>> CD: Yeah. Yeah.

>> MG: So, kinda bring things to a close here.

[00:25:09]

With this project, there will be many people who will have access to these, from students to just general enthusiasts. If there's something that you would like to tell them, something that is an ultimate take-away from what you do here at Tega Hills Farm. Is there anything that you would like to tell them, maybe a personal message, or something for them to think about, related to what you do?

[00:25:37]

>> CD: I think it's important to dream big and to take risks. And when it comes to farming, or anything, like, you feel called to. It's a God-given desire to take the risk and go for it, and just trust the Lord, that he's with you and he's going to give you what you need to get through it.

[00:26:11]

Because there'll be hard times. There'll be times when you are prosperous. And it is a risky business, but it's worth the risks. And reach out to others in the community to help get started, but do it. Do it for the sake of your community, do it for the sake of your children.

[00:26:36]

And just keep the small farms alive, keep them going, keep them in the community.

>> MG: A powerful note to end on.

>> CD: [LAUGH]

>> MG: Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us today. I know we all really appreciate it.

[tabby title='Captioned Audio'] [tabbyending]

Lisa Sherman is 26 years old, and has been working for Tega Hills Farm for three years. Her duties at the farm include product weighing, packaging, and lettuce harvesting. She learned to love farming from spending time at her grandmother’s house in Pittsburg, Pennsylvania in her youth, and plans to pursue a degree in horticulture from Clemson at a later date. Topics in this interview include her experiences with both conventional and hydroponic farming, learning experiences taken from her work at Tega Hills Farm, and her long term goal of opening up her own nursery.

[tabby title='Tape Log']

Time	Description
0:00:10	Introduction, Interviewer
0:00:38	Introduction, Lisa Sherman
0:01:22	Learning of her love of farming at Granny’s house in Pittsburg, PA
0:03:04	Lisa’s personal garden and personal experience gardening
0:08:19	Coming to Fort Mill, SC as a broke college student and looking for work
0:11:31	Finding Tega Hills Farm
0:14:47	Lisa’s work at the farm with lettuce harvesting, transferring, and packing
0:19:37	Learning farming techniques from experience; likes and dislikes
0:24:40	Wanting to run her own nursery
0:28:07	Final thoughts on hard work and loving her job and the people she interacts with

[tabby title='Transcript']

[00:00:10]

>> MG: This is Mike Gregory, graduate student, UNC Charlotte, public history. I am here talking today with Lisa.

>> LS: Yes.

>> MG: Lisa, okay, with Tega Hills Farm.

>> MG: Honestly, I know very little about you, so I'm gonna just open this up to let you introduce yourself. And then we'll get down the road to talking about your employment here at Tega Hills Farm.

[00:00:35]

So tell me about you, tell me your name and where you're from.

>> LS: My name is Lisa, I am originally from Jacksonville, Florida. We moved up to Pittsburgh in my junior year of high school, and that's where I got into gardening. My growing up in Florida, gardening was not something that I, farming's not something that I ever considered as a career.

[00:01:01]

Working outside back then meant going around and cleaning up the debris that dad had left after trimming stuff around the yard. And it just wasn't fun pulling up weeds that, its impossible to get out without burning the whole thing and starting fresh. But in Pittsburgh we were at my granny's house one year, one summer.

[00:01:27]

And she has this beautiful garden, she's always kept a huge garden. And on the drive home, back up to Pittsburgh, I sort of remember talking to my mom and asking her if we could start a garden.

>> LS: Were we able to start a garden? Cuz we weren't vegetable garden people, we had flowers and things, but not actual food crops.

[00:01:51]

So we talked about what we liked to eat. And then I just researched on my phone what kind of light do they need, what kind of soil do they need? Can I actually grow this or not? And I started my first little garden up there. And then a couple years later we moved down here to South Carolina, and I've been slowly building my garden ever since.

[00:02:14]

>> MG: So how old were you when you had this revelation at your granny's house?

>> LS: About 20 years old, so I'm 26 now. And I went from just enjoying growing flowers to having a little hobby garden, to now I have this 30 by 60 foot space. And I want to have either a farm or a nursery or something of my own one day.

[00:02:37]

Slowly working towards that now.

>> MG: So you're working toward it yourself now?

>> LS: Yes, yes.

>> MG: What type of plants and vegetables or fruit did you start growing in your garden?

>> LS: The first garden I had, I had corn, peppers, some sunflowers, and some lettuce. And I think I tried broccoli, but I started it too late in the season, and the heat killed them.

[00:03:08]

Because it was fun, we did not get much out of that garden. Did not have a fence around it, and there were plentiful deer where we were in Pittsburgh. So they pretty much mowed down the pepper plants, and we did not get any corn either. The night before we went out to harvest the corn, this groundhog came through.

[00:03:26]

In the morning it looked like a tornado had hit the corn patch. And it had just pulled down every ear of corn off of the stalks. And taken about three bites out of every ear, and then moved on to the next one.

>> MG: And this was in Pittsburgh?

[00:03:37]

>> LS: It was, yes.

>> MG: So you didn't get much out of the garden, but the groundhogs and the deer had a buffet.

>> LS: Yes, yeah.

>> MG: I'm sure they enjoyed it. [LAUGH] So when you started your garden, was it a big learning experience for you, or did you find it came quite natural to you?

[00:03:57]

>> LS: I really love to research, so I researched the heck out of that, and we,

>> LS: Actually, it did come pretty naturally to me.

>> LS: Maybe?

>> MG: How did you research that?

>> LS: I've actually-

>> MG: Yeah.

>> LS: I always research very thoroughly, I guess gardening has come naturally to me, yeah.

[00:04:25]

I didn't always have a green thumb, but I never had a black thumb.

>> MG: [LAUGH]

>> LS: I started out with a simple little petunia plant. And all I had to really do is deadhead that, water it, keep it in some sun. And I bought a half-dead petunia from a garden center.

[00:04:43]

And it was very dry, and it was very sad looking, I stuck it in a big pot, I watered it, I fertilized it just a little bit, cut it back. And then that thing flourished. And we had this great corner window in our house that faced east and south on the sides.

[00:05:01]

So it just got sun all winter long, and that thing was inside flowering in February. It's a gorgeous plant. So I said okay, well, I started with the easiest thing possible, what else can I do? I just went from there.

>> MG: What type of crops did you grandma grow?

[00:05:23]

>> LS: Lots of tomatoes, lots of cucumbers. She never pruned back any of her stuff, so it just went everywhere. She had onions, she had garlic, she had a lot of eggplant. Did I say peppers already? She had those, too. Just the main, that kinda stuff that everyone has in the summer.

[00:05:46]

She didn't have any any special, rare kinda crops in there. Just a very Southern gardner kind of lady, I think. In my garden, I like having the herbs, and I like mixing the flowers in. And I tried the potatoes, and I've tried a little bit of everything to see what I can do.

[00:06:09]

And I've narrowed it down the things that I love. I try to stay away from the cucumbers and squash and the peppers that everyone always has so much of in the summer.

>> MG: Yeah.

>> LS: Cuz I can find those anywhere.

>> MG: Yeah, my maternal grandmother and grandfather, they had a garden as well.

[00:06:26]

Huge, it was about an acre. Always had your standard Southern fare, which was collards, lettuce, tomatoes.

>> LS: We had collards too, yes.

>> MG: I think they had cucumbers occasionally, potatoes were another big one, so we'd have green beans.

>> LS: I never had any luck with potatoes.

>> LS: They look fine above the soil, and you pull them up, and they have the black rot all through them, and I don't know how to stop that.

[00:06:55]

>> MG: I don't either, my father had the same problem. He tried it with smaller garden, never could get it. Corn was never a problem, potatoes, terrible.

>> LS: My dad tries to make me grow corn for him every year. And it always gets the corn ear worms, so I'm devoting again about a quarter of the garden to corn this year.

[00:07:16]

And I'm not gonna get anything off those plants. But I do the fertilizing and I do the side dressing throughout the season. It's a small little plot, so I'm out there hand-pollinating those ears, but every year. And I'm not one to spray stuff with pesticides, so this year I'm trying to go all natural to see if that can work for me.

[00:07:44]

>> MG: Well, I hope it does. Seems like a lot of farming, what I was trying to get away from was heavy pesticides, it's probably [INAUDIBLE]. So you have had quite the journey, you went from Jacksonville, Florida to Pittsburgh, is that right?

>> LS: Yes.

>> MG: And now you're here in Fort Mill, South Carolina, that's quite the slingshot.

[00:08:04]

So Tell me a little bit about what brought you here to, you had family in Pittsburgh [INAUDIBLE].

>> LS: Yeah.

>> MG: And so that must have brought you there, but what brought you from Pittsburgh to Fort Mill, South Carolina?

>> LS: I was a broke college kid.

>> MG: Okay.

>> LS: I had absolutely no money, still living at home, and my grandparents' house was declining slowly.

[00:08:29]

So mom and dad wanted me to be closer. My dad's family is in Florida, my mom's family is down in Georgia, so it's about a seven hour drive from here to other side of grandparents.

>> LS: So I lived with my mom and dad for a while here, and I [INAUDIBLE] moved out, but my garden is still in their backyard.

[00:08:49]

>> MG: You said you were a broke college kid, what were you studying?

>> LS: I could not make up my mind for a long time [LAUGH]. I knew that I liked to garden then, but I didn't know that I wanted to do it for a career, for a living.

[00:09:12]

So at first I thought that I wanted to do, at first I was going towards animal science, and I wanted to do stuff with horses. So I did some chiropractic stuff early on and I really loved that. So I started off going to school for that. And I was not the best student growing up.

[00:09:38]

Did not have the best grades. I was enrolled at a community college trying to get my basic math, science, English stuff out of the way and my grades got up, and I was going to transfer to Princeton ideally, as my mom and dad went to Princeton, that's a part of it.

[00:09:56]

Things of family. And I still-

>> MG: Still bleed a little orange?

>> LS: Yes.

>> MG: [LAUGH]

>> LS: It's a little late in my life, but I still wanna go to Clemson for horticulture, now that I'm finally settled on something, it took me long enough.

>> MG: It's never too late.

[00:10:15]

>> LS: It's ten years to decide.

>> MG: Never too late, I'm 38 years older and still over humans in. So there's a lot to be said for having a little bit of experience and then going in as what they call a non-traditional student.

>> LS: Yeah, travel a bit, explore the world, find out who you are as a person.

[00:10:35]

>> MG: And then come back.

>> LS: What you like, and then come back.

>> MG: Exactly, so-

>> LS: You need to have your mind made up straight out of high school, you don't really know who you are yet at that point.

>> MG: I sure do.

>> LS: You think you do, but you really don't.

[00:10:47]

>> MG: Nope, you sure don't.

>> MG: So tell me about how you went from the broke college kid, back here, you're here Fort Mill, South Carolina to meeting up with Mark and Mindy Robinson and working at Tega Hills Farm. So this is definitely, it's a non-traditional farm. We're getting into a farm that has some history here.

[00:11:15]

You went from a smaller farm to suddenly work into this big hydroponic network here on two acres. So tell me a little bit about that. How did you run into them?

>> MG: Tell me a bit about your history.

>> LS: I was

>> LS: The time I was working at Pet Smart, doing a little bit of everything there, pet care, customer service, cashiering, early morning stocking.

[00:11:43]

And I was just sick and tired of being stuck Inside. I wanted to be out in the sunshine. I wanted to be in the rain. I wanted [LAUGH] to be in the snow when it's freezing out there. And I didn't like having to be stuck inside a building for eight hours a day.

[00:12:01]

Just not for me. So I looked online. I just typed in seasonal farm jobs. I live in Rock Hill, so I typed in seasonal farm jobs near Rock Hill, South Carolina. And this popped up. And I was thrilled. They work year-round here. So I'd sent them a resume, well, I actually walked it up here.

[00:12:22]

And my dad helped me type up this really nice cover letter telling them why I was interested and that I've been gardening for a while.

>> LS: I wanted to see where else

>> LS: I wanted to see if I would be interested in farming for a living. And whether I wanted to do it on my own, my own small farm or I wanted to work for a bigger farm.

[00:13:04]

>> LS: And yeah, so they interviewed me and about a month later they hired me and another girl, and I love it here. I love everything that I do. I love watching the lettuce grow, I like talking to the little baby plants.

>> MG: What year did you start, what year?

[00:13:32]

>> LS: I've been here three years now, so that was 2016?

>> MG: 2016.

>> LS: Think it was 2016, I might have lost a year in there somewhere. [LAUGH]

>> MG: It's okay, I find the older that I'm getting, I'm starting to lose years. [LAUGH] So you talk to the plants.

[00:13:53]

>> LS: I do, [LAUGH].

>> MG: That's fantastic.

>> LS: Not just for the science specific reason of, you bring out carbon dioxide, and that's what the plants need to take in for photosynthesis. Just because, they're adorable. How can you not talk to them, and tell them how adorable they are?

[00:14:12]

>> MG: Okay, I don't judge. I think it's fantastic. So what do you do here at Tega Hills?

>> LS: I work mainly with the lettuce in those greenhouses. I help with the harvesting and the transferring plants lettuce. We have another lady, Carrie, who plants the lettuce seeds every Wednesday, and I'm the one who waters those in Wednesdays, and then I also water the rest of the seedlings Mondays, Wednesdays and Thursdays.

[00:14:47]

So I'm with the lettuce every step of the way through the process. And I also work in house three, where we have the kale, arugula, fennel, watercress, that kind of stuff.

>> LS: Harvesting outside during the summer. I need a there. I had a few months where I was working in-house too with micro greens, so I've done a little bit of everything here.

[00:15:14]

>> MG: So you're, what you do tends to change depending on, is it by season, or just necessity?

>> LS: We have the lettuce year round. Every morning we harvest lettuce. What I do changes with the seasons, depending on what day it is. Some days, in summer we have peppers and tomatoes, cucumbers and squash.

[00:15:44]

So in the summer, we have a couple days a week. We go in and pick out all the stuff. And the next day or so after that, we go in and we do the cultural work, pruning and the things back up.

>> MG: So walk me through a typical day that you do, whatever you do here.

[00:16:10]

>> LS: What day of the week do you want?

>> MG: I'll leave it open To you, maybe if something, and you don't have to get too specific.

>> LS: My day, yeah.

>> MG: So as things change throughout the week, just a kind of a typical day or two.

>> LS: In the morning, we harvest lettuce.

[00:16:29]

We always harvest two passes in house one, and then two passes in house four.

>> LS: That's a few hundred heads of lettuce a day that we're pulling out, and then,

>> LS: Barely describe this without actually showing you, but we.

>> LS: Harvest a day, two houses, each house a day, and then we.

[00:17:03]

>> LS: Plant back where we harvested out our big seedlings. And then we, we clean up, we try to get all that stuff done before lunch. Then after lunch is usually planting.

>> MG: Sorry guys.

>> LS: Distracting. After lunch is usually harvesting in house three and we'll plant back in there.

[00:17:37]

Any clean up from the morning tasks if it's summer, yes we'll go through and pick cucumbers sometimes after lunch.

>> LS: If it's a delivery day, Mindy usually has me help pack in the greens orders. For picking flowers, I love picking flowers, beautiful flowers, it's great.

>> MG: It just kept adding up there.

[00:18:19]

>> LS: Can you- Jenny?

>> Speaker 3: Yeah.

>> LS: Can you find me another green lid?

>> Speaker 3: Yeah

>> LS: That means somebody will try.

>> [INAUDIBLE]

>> LS: Here's one box, it just does not have a lid. It might be the green.

>> Speaker 3: This color green?

>> LS: Yeah, that color.

>> LS: Gets me distracted.

[00:18:47]

>> MG: It's okay but business has to keep going.

>> LS: Yes.

>> MG: What would you say you have taken away from your time working here at Farm for your own business. What have you learned here that, and I'm sure you've probably learned a lot. You've been here for a couple of years, but that's something else there.

[00:19:17]

>> MG: But what have you learned that maybe has surprised you or something that you are going to take away for your own use for when you finally start your own market.

>> LS: I learned that I really, I enjoy waiting. [LAUGH] It's a really simple, basic answer, but I love pulling weeds.

[00:19:47]

And I didn't realize how much I enjoyed doing that. And I like pruning back the cucumbers. And I like separating the tomatoes. And I didn't realize that was something that you had to do to prune them. And to prevent your little tomato plant from turning into this giant tomato jungle monster.

[00:20:07]

You have to cut them back. And they actually produce more if you do that properly. And if you pinch off the leaves as you go, the bottom leaves, it opens up the face of the plant and allows more air flow into the middle so you prevent disease. And I learned that you shouldn't do work like that ehen the humidity is high.

[00:20:30]

Because that, those break a leaf off and that little open section of the plant is open to infection and disease and bacteria getting in there. And I just, not that I don't like harvesting lettuce but since I do it every single morning, I've decided that I do not want to farm lettuce.

[00:20:55]

I'm so tired of lettuce. I enjoy that part of my job but, for myself and my own life, no. No more lettuce.

>> MG: I can understand that. When I first spoke to Mark and Mindy. Mark told me how many thousands of heads of lettuce are harvested. And this is a small space.

[00:21:16]

It's a two acre farm, but not all two acres are full of greenhouses. There's only five, only five greenhouses.

>> LS: Yes.

>> MG: So for one, how fast they grow is staggering.

>> LS: It is, it's amazing, yes..

>> MG: And to have that many thousands of heads of lettuce pulled over such a short amount of time, and there are only five full-time workers at TV Hills or thereabouts?

[00:21:55]

>> MG: Somewhere in there.

>> LS: Yeah, somewhere in there. We have about seven employees right now. Some are full time, some are part time.

>> MG: That's so much time that's occupied by just lettuce.

>> LS: That's our summer staff. Sorry, our winter staff I mean. In summer we have about ten.

[00:22:18]

>> MG: Has working in these greenhouses with these hydroponics made you want to consider doing something like that yourself? Or are you leaning towards? You're shaking your head, that's telling me something.

>> LS: I love to play in the dirt. [LAUGH] I don't know anything about pumps, I don't know anything about water or how to add the right nutrients to the water, and I'm not really interested in learning about that.

[00:22:44]

My own garden, I have raised beds, I have the concrete block beds, I have some wooden beds. I have stuff growing on large trellises, stuff on vertical trellises, things in the ground, things growing out of straw bales. I have a little bit of verything in there. And, yeah, hydroponic growing, it just isn't.

[00:23:05]

I take more of a creative approach. For myself I don't like just, I get bored with just long rows of little, long parallel rows of plants for miles. I like to have the kind of garden where you can bring in the kids or people who don't even like plants, and they go wow, this is amazing.

[00:23:28]

Or, what are these little round yellow things, and I say that's a lemon cucumber, and they go what, that's a cucumber? And I see that happiness and that wonder on their faces, and I love when kids leave and they're like mom, dad, can we grow some watermelons? Can we grow some whatever.

[00:23:43]

I love that.

>> LS: I thought of an answer to your earlier question.

>> MG: Sure.

>> LS: About what I've gotten out of the farm and what I've learned about myself. And what I possibly want for me in the future.

>> MG: Yeah, please do.

>> LS: I recently decided, last week recently, that I don't necessarily We want an actual farm [LAUGH] where I produce food for people.

[00:24:18]

I like watering the lettuce seeds and I like taking care of the seedlings. And I like nurturing them up to the point of taking them out to the greenhouse. And I work in house too with the microgreens, it's the same thing. I love looking at the seeds, I love petting them every day and making sure every one was growing the way that they should be.

[00:24:43]

And wherever I've been now is I just want a nursery and I want to start plants and I don't want to have a whole lot of everything. I don't want to spread myself too thin over that, but I want to grow the things that I love to grow.

[00:24:58]

The pretty little flowers and herbs that you can companion plant with all of your vegetables or certain insects or throw in the beneficial. Things like that I'm still working on that idea. It's been a week since I bought that but that's where I am now. Just a love for baby plants that I didn't realize I had before.

[00:25:21]

And I'm actually able to grow these seeds. This is the first year that I'm successfully growing flowers and okra from seed. They've not sprouted at all for me in the past. So I'm thrilled with all that.

>> MG: I bet.

>> MG: So when you go back to study horticulture,

[00:25:44]

>> MG: Is perhaps opening up your own nursery your goal? Or do you have something else further in mind or what are your kind of projected ideas for your future?

>> LS: I still feel like that 20 year old that had no idea [LAUGH]. I like, at the moment, yeah, I'm going to return to my own nursery.

[00:26:09]

But I never went through a period where I really got away from the house and traveled and saw the world, so I still want to do that a bit. So right now I'm bouncing back and forth between, well, I still want to do all of these things but I had this business idea.

[00:26:25]

And I'm growing extra seeds this year so that I can sell them as small plants. And if I start that up, then I can't do the other thing. But I can't do the other thing without money. So it's a lot of back of forth at the moment. I still am only 26.

[00:26:43]

I keep telling myself I have time, it's disappearing gradually but I like to think I have time.

>> MG: You have plenty of time. So, really I think I, would like to turn it just for a moment over to you if there's anything that you'd like to say finally about your time here at Tega Hills Farm.

[00:27:09]

Or you could tell us anything you want. Because this interview is going to be made available to students. But as well as to other people who are interested in kind of our food culture in Charlotte which is wide reaching, it's coming all the way to South Carolina. There's a massive region where Charlotte seems to be kinda at the center here.

[00:27:35]

And that reach was what led me to Tega Hills Farm and to Mark and Mindy and to talking to you. So when we put this into our project online with Library Special Collections, it will reach a lot more people, people who are interested and students. Is there anything that you would like to say maybe to them, even if it's just about gardening?

[00:28:00]

Or is there something you'd like to tell them about.

>> LS: I love what I do, but people don't realize how much work goes into this. And it's long hours, it's really cold in the winter, it's really hot in the summer. And the greenhouses are, to a point they're heated in the winter and we have big fans in the summer.

[00:28:33]

We have the evaporative cooler at one end, that doesn't mean that it's temperate and cool in there. It just means that instead of it being 140, 50 degrees in there, it's only 108. So it's [LAUGH] it's a hard job, but it's very rewarding If you want to get into it.

[00:28:51]

I love bagging up produce for people. I love when someone comes in and says, well just give me your favorite lettuce, or what would you recommend? What do you like to eat? I love customers like that. I love telling people about the farm. I love sharing this joy that it gives me with people.

[00:29:14]

>> LS: No matter if we have any bug problems, nutrient problems, it's super hot, it's super cold. You have a rough day here, a rough day there, it's all worth it to me in the end. Just because of the great product that we roll out and just the amazing people I work with, too.

[00:29:38]

They're awesome and everything that I've learned has made it so worth it to me. And it,

>> LS: What am I saying? [LAUGH] Yeah, I wouldn't change it for anything. I would go back and I would do the whole thing again.

>> MG: I think that's a very touching and powerful note to end on.

[00:29:59]

Lisa, thank you so much for talking with me, I really appreciate it.

>> LS: Yes, thank you, a pleasure.

[tabby title='Captioned Audio'] [tabbyending]

Emma Hendel discusses her five years as a microgreens farmer and co-owner of Fair Share Farms, LLC in Pfafftown, North Carolina. Ms. Hendel describes why and how she and her husband Elliot Seldner came to North Carolina and started their farm. She explains what microgreens are and why she and Mr. Seldner decided to grow them. Other topics include organic farming methods, Organic Certified vs. Good Agricultural Practices (GAP) Certified, urban sprawl, distribution partners, environmental issues, and social media.

Emma Hendel was a 30-year-old woman at the time of interview, which took place at Davidson Town Hall in Davidson, North Carolina. She was born in Maryland in 1988. She was educated at Elizabethtown College and was employed as a teacher and farmer.

[tabby title='Tape Log']

Time	Subject
0:00:07	Beginning
0:00:44	Background of Fair Share Farm
0:01:10	Began with a CSA model
0:02:06	Beginning of Fair Share Farm
0:02:43	Working up to their own farm
0:03:37	Deciding what to grow
0:04:14	Organic methods, GAP, FSMA
0:05:14	Elliot's desire to work outside
0:06:36	Desire for a healthy lifestyle
0:07:16	Love of cooking
0:08:08	Emma's family from Winston-Salem
0:09:15	Coming to North Carolina to work on other farms
0:10:50	Negatives of urban encroachment
0:12:01	Potential for positive opportunities of urban encroachment
0:13:44	Makeup of farm land (greenhouses, etc)
0:15:00	Microgreens (what they are and how they are grown)
0:18:30	Type of customers
0:19:39	No till (soil care)
0:22:13	Organic farming
0:24:23	Organic certification
0:26:07	GAP certification
0:29:07	Getting into Whole Foods
0:30:11	Distribute to restaurants
0:32:33	Work with small distributers (Freshlist and New Appalachia)
0:34:15	Employees
0:37:01	Immigrant "guest" workers
0:39:11	Challenges as a woman
0:40:23	Social Media
0:43:35	Use of plastic
0:45:51	Call out culture online
0:46:44	Partner organizations
0:49:58	Future of the farm
0:52:44	Closing

[tabby title='Transcript']

[00:00:10]

>> Sarah Wilds: Okay, today is April 20th, 2019, we are in Davidson, North Carolina. My name is Sarah Wilds, and I am interviewing Emma Hendel. And Emma is co-owner of Fair Share Farm with her husband, Elliott.

>> Emma Hendel: Seldner.

>> Sarah Wilds: Seldner.

>> Sarah Wilds: So Emma, can you just tell me real briefly, sort of a little background information about your farm?

[00:00:39]

Where it is, when you started, how it started and we'll go from there.

>> Emma Hendel: So my farm's name is Fair Share Farm, LLC, and we established it with the mission to feed as many people in North Carolina as we can, growing the best food possible, and being kind to the land and ourselves while doing it.

[00:01:03]

And so, the name Fair Share Farm actually comes out of the way that we started our business, which was with a CSA model, or a community supported agriculture. So people would purchase a share of produce, which they would receive weekly throughout the season, which is a great model for a farm starting up, because you get a lot of cash flow right away.

[00:01:27]

So usually in a CSA model, you would pay completely up front and receive a product throughout the season. And so that's where like the fair share came from, because the customers would be getting their share of our hard work. And it's a fair deal for everybody, because we're compensate, we're being compensated for the work and the effort that we're putting in.

[00:01:54]

And so that's really been important is always charging what the product is worth and not more and not less. And so we started our business in the fall of 2014, so we're actually coming up on our five year mark, which is a big deal in the small business world.

[00:02:16]

That sort of like you're not going anywhere, hopefully like usually up to year three is where it's like very, very crazy, and then sort of year five is like you can be looking at next steps. Where do you take if from here because you're established? So, we started in the fall of 2014, my husband was at the time working at another farm, and I was teaching.

[00:02:48]

>> Emma Hendel: And so, we'd actually been talking with the landowners a year or two previously, but we weren't ready to go at that time. And then, a couple years and a few months down the road, it was time. So, we reached back out and got in contact with them and set up a lease.

[00:03:12]

And really in the fall of 2014, that was all preparation, deciding what we were doing, preparing the land to grow things, figuring out the logistics of what's the soil type, what can we grow here, what do we wanna grow, what do people want, where can we sell our products?

[00:03:32]

And actually, one big deciding factor on where we were going to focus was the farmer's market and trying to get into the local farmer's market. And then being what's the hole in the market? So that it became clear that salad, micro-greens, people were doing some of that, but no one was really focusing on it.

[00:03:54]

So that's where our salad focus came from was to fill a void in the marketplace. And at the suggestion of the market manager to say, hey, I think you should focus on this. We did, and so that is where that focus came from. So we grow a lot of salad, we also grow specialty seasonal produce.

[00:04:14]

We are not certified organic, but we do follow all of the USDA and USDA guidelines and use only AMRI-approved methods and products. And we keep extensive records because we do have a GAP certification. And so although the FSMA, Food Safety Modernization Act, is not necessarily being applied yet, we are ready.

[00:04:42]

So we have meticulous record keeping. We believe that the goodness of the product comes from the soil. And so we like to take care of it. And so, I think I answered the question where it was like, where did it come from? What's our business based on? And so yeah, help me out.

[00:05:10]

[LAUGH]

>> Sarah Wilds: That's great. So from listening to a previous interview on a farming podcast or agricultural podcast, I know Elliott was sort of the driving force behind wanting to farm. Do you know where his passion sort of came from?

>> Emma Hendel: Yeah, Elliott wanted to be outside. And so when we were in college, it’s really daunting to sort of see your whole life ahead of you.

[00:05:45]

And when you’re trying to pick and focus on what you’re studying and sort of like envisioning what is the next 40 or 50 work years, working years of my life going to look like? Am I going to be sitting in the cubicle all day? Am I going to be presenting in front of groups?

[00:06:05]

Am I going to be researching? What really am I going to be doing? And so, for Elliott, I think there was this romantic enchantment with the idea of working outside and forming a community that way and having movement in his life. Because like everybody, we want to be healthy and active.

[00:06:36]

But I also think, and I don’t think he would mind me saying this, but I think for Elliott, he doesn’t go out and seek exercise. So having exercise and activity built into his daily life was sort of the only way that he saw that he was going to be at all fit and healthy.

[00:06:57]

>> Sarah Wilds: That's a good sort of overall strategy.

>> Emma Hendel: [LAUGH]

>> Sarah Wilds: You have to physically move around to work, but then you also produce healthy food. And it's kind of win-win situation.

>> Emma Hendel: Yeah, and I actually now that you say that, that's another thing I think that do Elliott and myself, too, we both love cooking, love eating.

[00:07:20]

Our teenage jobs and young adult jobs revolved around food. Both of us have worked as cooks. I've worked front of house positions, being a server and doing all sorts of different things, and so cooking is a huge part of our life and our relationship. If we're spending time together, we're probably cooking something or eating something or doing a food project.

[00:07:51]

It really is focused on that because it's one of the most, in our opinion, it's one of the most joyful and enjoyable things that we do.

>> Sarah Wilds: So how did you end up specifically outside Winston-Salem? You had contact with the previous owner of the land.

>> Emma Hendel: So Elliott grew up in Connecticut, I grew up in Maryland.

[00:08:20]

We met in college in Pennsylvania. I grew up visiting Winston-Salem, North Carolina because my mother's family is based in Winston-Salem. So I have tons of cousins, aunts, uncles. So school breaks were spent visiting. And although my mom moved away from Winston-Salem, she did maintain those relationships and come back and visit and spend time.

[00:08:49]

And so I grew up visiting Winston-Salem, and it's funny because I never really saw myself living in Winston-Salem because it wasn't necessarily a positive experience for me as a child. And by just after working at a couple different farms and moving around after college, we actually came to North Carolina because one of our acquaintances from college then, he was living in Durham, North Carolina and working for Carolina Farm Stewardship Association.

[00:09:30]

And so he was like, well, I know you guys are looking for maybe land to start your own farm, or maybe even an employment opportunity, send me your resume and I'll put it out on the CFSA list serve. And so we sent resumes, they were put out on the list serve, that's how we got in the initial contact with the land owners and really, like I said, at the time we were probably leaning more towards an employment situation.

[00:10:01]

And so another farm in Stokes County, North Carolina took us up and offered both of us jobs, and so that's how we ended up in North Carolina, and then just about a half hour south of that is Winston-Salem. And so when we first moved to North Carolina, we stayed with my godparents.

[00:10:29]

And while we were looking for housing, etc., and now actually our farm now is a couple neighborhoods over from where they live. So that's how I got back to North Carolina and Elliot came to North Carolina for the first time. [LAUGH]

>> Sarah Wilds: So are there any sort of urban issues of being, cuz you said you were right outside Winston-Salem's city sprawl urban development.

[00:10:59]

Is that sort of encroaching? Because here in Charlotte the city is really pushing out and devouring the counties.

>> Emma Hendel: It is, it is actually. There's a ton of farmland for sale all around us. They're putting in, actually, the new highway that's going to encircle Winston-Salem is going to, there's going to be an entrance and exit at the end of our street.

[00:11:30]

And so that's really gonna change things. There's all sorts of new construction, like the type of construction where it's like buy the plot and design true homes. There's a lot of true home developments. And so it's a rapidly changing landscape. But it hasn't really impacted our farm negatively, because we are still in the county and there is actually a lot of, it could be positive for us because there is a lot of potential for a roadside stand, or what if in the future we setup a demo farm on our current farm property and purchase more land further out.

[00:12:16]

I mean there's positives and negatives. I do see the loss of the rural areas as a negative for the area. And urban sprawl is, in my opinion, I don't find it very attractive and I like the idea of having an urban center but I do think there needs to be a more forward looking sort of vision into how things are going because it's difficult when you just have all these little suburban things and then there's chain stuff to pop up to service.

[00:13:12]

Cuz everybody because everybody wants their little piece of land. And it's a difficult issue because you want people to be empowered and have their yard and their house and feel a sense of ownership over that, but then at the same time it can be sort of a barrier to entry because there are large houses.

[00:13:39]

So anyways, that's sort of getting into a whole other issue.

>> Sarah Wilds: So I think, I found that you have about five acres of land currently?

>> Emma Hendel: Yeah, probably about, I would say five acres of open land and then two with houses and outbuildings on them, and we lease that from a family.

[00:14:08]

>> Sarah Wilds: And you have green houses?

>> Emma Hendel: Yes, we have 20 caterpillar coop house structures, so 2,100 foot caterpillar structures. That would be the cheapest in low tech, and then we have two large,

>> Emma Hendel: Coop house structures or high tunnels. And so those are sort of a little bit more sophisticated.

[00:14:40]

They have the double inflated poly roof and roll up sides, and those are unheated and then we have one commercial greenhouse, which is heated, has electrical service, whole nine yards. And that's where we do our micro greens and our transplants for the field.

>> Sarah Wilds: Okay. So I guess going off of that, like can you talk a little bit more about micro greens like what they are as opposed to just, I don't know, collard greens, spinach, kale.

[00:15:13]

What's?

>> Emma Hendel: Yeah, so there's sprouts, which we do not grow, but sprouts are not grown in the soil, they're just basically hydrated seeds, and they're not exposed to sunlight but, and so you'll see this often in the grocery stores as mung beans or alfalfa sprouts and things like that.

[00:15:38]

A micro green is grown in the soil and, well, at least how we grow them, they're grown in the soil and exposed to sunlight. You can also have hydroponically grown micro-greens that are grown with grow lights, but that's not how we do it. We do it solar, with soil, and all we do is after they have germinated we just supply water so they're not getting any other treatments essentially.

[00:16:06]

It's just soil, water, sunlight. And so most microgreens are between 10 and about 25 days old. And so a seed has all of the energy it needs to basically get to sexual maturity. So that's a lot of energy that's in a seed, and that's why people are like, seeds and nuts, they're so healthy for you.

[00:16:30]

So what a microgreen is, is it's all that seed and nut energy plus sunlight energy which activates all sorts of different chemical reactions. Which as I am not a biologist, I can't really explain all of that, but it's happening and it's really cool and it makes a really delicious and flavorful product.

[00:16:53]

And so if you are looking at a microgreen versus a full-grown vegetable depending on the variety, it can have 4-40 times the amount of available nutrition for you. And so it's a really great way to get a lot of vitamins and good nutrients in maybe a smaller package.

[00:17:16]

>> Sarah Wilds: Yeah.

>> Emma Hendel: So it's like kids really like them cuz they're cute. And then it's like you just ate a ton of really good stuff, why don't you have some more? But they're also because of that concentrated available nutrition, they have a very concentrated and powerful flavor. [LAUGH] And so that can be a really fun experience too where that is really arugula, that's the most arugula, arugula flavor-

[00:17:46]

>> Sarah Wilds: [LAUGH]

>> Emma Hendel: I've ever tasted. Another advantage is you can get, there's a lot of, especially in the legume and sort of more nutty things like sunflowers and pea shoots. There's a lot of available protein in that. And the University of Maryland did a study, I think, in 2012 with sunflowers and ounce per ounce, they have the same amount of protein as chicken.

[00:18:15]

So if you have an ounce of sunflower shoot, that's got the same amount of protein as an ounce of chicken. And so and I think I believe pea shoots are a similar sort of deal. So I mean it's really great. I'm not a vegan but a lot of our customers are vegan bodybuilders, there's a market for that.

[00:18:40]

And people that are really into the wellness trend and movement, a lot of people that are practicing yoga are really into that sort of thing. And so microgreen sorta helped expand the sort of vegetable life for people that are focusing on eating more vegetables and things like that.

[00:19:08]

>> Sarah Wilds: Yeah, and then that sounds very versatile for vegans, vegan bodybuilders but also those people who want their kids to eat good food or they're vegetarian or just-

>> Emma Hendel: Yeah, cuz you can put it on a sandwich, you can basically put it with anything. Whatever you're eating, if you wanna grill a piece of salmon, just put a handful of stuff on the bottom of the plate, put the salmon on top.

[00:19:31]

And you can be done if you want [LAUGH].

>> Sarah Wilds: And it'll look pretty.

>> Emma Hendel: Yeah, and it'll look pretty.

>> Sarah Wilds: Great, so I think I saw on your website, you use no-till?

>> Emma Hendel: Yeah, whenever we can we like to use as little tillage as possible. There are farms that claim to be zero till like they're never tilling.

[00:19:59]

We do use tillage to break sod and break new ground. And every once in a while, we might need to till but we focus on trying to till as little as possible because it helps with carbon sequestration. So when you're tilling, you can be releasing a lot of carbon into the air.

[00:20:23]

And you're also disturbing the soil composition. So you're disturbing like the different layers of soil. You're chopping up worms, and there's all sorts of things going on on the microbial level that you're disturbing. And also tillage can create a problem called hardpan, where when you're tilling especially in the clay-based soil of the Piedmont, a tiller is probably gonna go about 6 inches down.

[00:20:56]

And it will actually create a layer of compacted soil underneath that 6 inches which can inhibit the uptake of the deep soil nutrients, so a lot of plants have roots that go down 12, 14 inches three feet. They have a big tap root. And so if they can't get through that layer of hardpan, they are not gonna have access to a lot of the micronutrients that are deeper down in the soil.

[00:21:26]

And that action of the taproot bringing up is also bringing up nutrients for later crops and later things. And so what we do is we use a tool called a broadfork, which goes down about 12 inches and that helps break up that layer of hardpan. I mean, it’s essentially like a large garden fork, or it might look like an oversized comb or something like that.

[00:21:54]

And so that helps break it up like how people have their lawns aerated, it's the same sort of action.

>> Sarah Wilds: Okay,

>> Sarah Wilds: So you mention before that your gaps are agricultural practi-

>> Emma Hendel: Practices, yeah [LAUGH].

>> Sarah Wilds: Yeah, what's the difference between that and working in a certified?

>> Emma Hendel: So being certified organic is about practices in terms of soil management and product use.

[00:22:34]

So that I'm talking about fertilizers and pesticides. So one thing that is a misconception about being organic is that pesticides and fertilizers are allowed. The restrictions come into play when you're looking at petroleum-based fertilizers so that would not be allowed under organic certification. But what is allowed is things like BT, which is actually like a cultivated bacteria or like a product that's called Azero, which is made from chrysanthemum concentrate or name oil or insecticidal soaps.

[00:23:25]

Or there's a product called Surround, no, not Surround. Well, there's a clay-based product that forms a physical barrier on fruits, for like tree fruit production. So pesticides which are derived from,

>> Emma Hendel: Chemicals and ingredients that are available in the environment that are not synthesized and that are going to be less harmful to the environment as well as the soil and certain insects like those are going to be allowed.

[00:24:07]

But of course, no Roundup, no weed killers,

>> Sarah Wilds: So it's not just organic, the food itself is being grown organic. It's the environment it's been grown in and the materials it's being grown with are all organic then.

>> Emma Hendel: So if you wanted to start an organic farm today, unless you had from the landowners a letter saying for the past three years either A, nothing has been done to this land.

[00:24:37]

Or B, this land has only been farmed using certified organic practices and it is certified organic by this other grower already. You're gonna have to wait three years with your practices. Now when we established our farm, nothing had been done for three years. We wrote an organic plan but it didn't It didn't seem worth it to us to invest the money in that.

[00:25:06]

And then there's other issues I have with the USDA's certified organic program just regarding, organic is supposed to be about growing in the soil. But now, they're allowing hydroponics and all sorts of other things. II don't really want to go too much into it, because I am not here to trash certified organic at all.

[00:25:32]

Because being certified organic is what can help people enter into the marketplace. It can be a third party stamp of approval. There's a lot of positives to being certified organic. For us, it just wasn't the right fit. Now, certified organic is about soil management, soil practices as well as what products you can and can not use are on your crops and on your soil.

[00:26:08]

GAP certification is all about food safety. So organic and GAPs probably line up at about 80%. In terms of there is rules about when you can and cannot apply manure based fertilizers, for reasons of food safety. If you are growing a salad green, you can't go in and spray liquid fish emulsion on it one day and then cut it for market the next day, that doesn't work.

[00:26:47]

There's different rules about when you can apply certain products which overlap. And then where GAPs diverges and has almost, maybe even more stringent guidelines is about signage, employee training, paperwork. I have a whole shelf of paperwork and for every activity on the farm, there's basically a task ticket.

[00:27:16]

And it describes exactly, you as the farmer or somebody else that's our employee. They're gonna write down, I did this in this field on this day. We have a little diagram that they can circle what part of the field, they write exactly what they did. Sign and date it at the bottom, it goes into a record book.

[00:27:37]

If somebody injures themselves, you need a band-aid for a cut, you gotta fill out injury and illness report. We have hand washing stations all over the farm available. We have SOPs, standard operating procedures for everything and so it's just very procedural based. And for certified organic, there's a lot of records that you have to keep but it's just not quite at the same level.

[00:28:15]

For certified organic, it's more about what are you doing to the soil. What is planted, and for certified organic you have to keep harvest records. There's just a couple extra pieces of information that are required for GAPs beyond.

>> Sarah Wilds: So that's how you do organic method? So you're using all those methods, you're taking care of the soil?

[00:28:40]

>> Emma Hendel: With the systems we have in place, we could go and get certified organic really tomorrow or as soon as the certifier could get out there, it would be no sweat.

>> Sarah Wilds: At this point, it's just a stamp for you.

>> Emma Hendel: Yeah, and we talk about it and we go back and forth all the time, like right now we are in the process of trying to get into Whole Foods.

[00:29:08]

Whole Foods sells conventional stuff, that's what we are, is a quote-unquote conventional grower. And they sell conventional things, and they're like, yeah, great. Your products look good, and it would be sold in the conventional section. It's like a chicken or the egg situation. I don't know if we would make enough additional business because of being certified organic to offset the cost in the first year.

[00:29:42]

But maybe five years from now, that's the reason that we got a contract with Whole Foods. Or that's the reason that we got this customer over here, or that's the reason that we got into this new farmer's market or something like that. So that's it's tough to figure out what is the right path.

[00:30:11]

>> Sarah Wilds: Who all do you distribute and partner to? I know you're here in Davidson, I know you're at the farmer's market in Old Salem, in Winstom-Salem. What else do you do?

>> Emma Hendel: We actually started our business with restaurant customers and we were delivering living micro green trays to restaurants in Winston-Salem.

[00:30:37]

Which was something that the chef's there hadn't yet seen like other parts of the country, like New York and New England and California like that. That wasn't a new thing. But in North Carolina, particularly where we were that was something, everyone had seen the cut micro greens. But to bring in a fresh Living tray that a chef could play with and baby and keep around, and that was a new experience for people.

[00:31:09]

So that was really great to see. And so we started with restaurants, restaurants still make up about 70% of our business. We do the farmer's market which actually helps drive a lot of restaurant business too. People like to connect and see where their food comes from. So if we had a product at the farmer's market, people would come up and be like, I saw that at such and such restaurant.

[00:31:35]

Was that you? Do you sell to them and you can be like, yeah that's our product. Every time you eat at that restaurant, you're also supporting our business, and people are like, yeah!

>> Sarah Wilds: We're like ten miles outside.

>> Emma Hendel: Exactly, and that's actually why we wanted to expand and have a market in Davidson.

[00:31:56]

Because we've been coming down to Charlotte for the last couple years doing restaurant deliveries. So we wanted to have that connection with the community, and then also We're hoping to see that when our customers at the farmers market are going out to eat, they are able to tell the wait staff or the chef, yeah, I met Emma at the farmers market.

[00:32:22]

I’m really glad that you have their product in here. And so, we also work with a couple of small distributors in the area New Appalachia, and also Fresh List. And so, there's some customers that we have that I find out new ones every day. Because once you sell it to a distributor, you don't necessarily know where it ends up.

[00:32:52]

Even if it has your name on it.

>> Sarah Wilds: Yeah, so I've heard a little about Fresh List, but can you talk about New Appalachia?

>> Emma Hendel: So New Appalachia is a company that's actually based in the Asheville area. And so, they collect from small and medium sized growers from western, central, and all over North Carolina.

[00:33:19]

They also go in to South Carolina for fruit. And so, really, just bringing all sorts of flavors from the mountains to the Piedmont, and from the Piedmont all over the rest of North Carolina. And so, he's just picking up things from various producers that are in different little micro-climates.

[00:33:43]

And so, he was delivering bamboo shoots and things like all sorts of foraged items, rare items. And so, just taking the search off the plate of the chef and saying this is the 300 item product list that you can choose from this week, coming from all these different farms.

[00:34:09]

>> Sarah Wilds: That's cool.

>> Sarah Wilds: So how do you, obviously the business is owned by you and your husband and you have a few full-time employees. How do you find those employees? Are they all locals from North Carolina?

>> Emma Hendel: All of our employees right now live and have their own lives in Winston-Salem and Kernersville, which is another little nearby town.

[00:34:37]

Previously, we have employed people that have come and relocated. And this year, we were like we want all local employees. Because we don't have housing, and we felt it was difficult to have people come and relocate. Because it's well, how do you jump into a new city life, and maybe it hadn't really seemed to work out.

[00:35:15]

But we found that we'll put ads on Craigslist or Indeed. Actually, we get a lot of employees through word of mouth. And so, we haven't had trouble finding employees yet, and hopefully we won't. A lot of time, people that work on the farm work on farms anywhere. They might be just out of college, or on summer vacation from college, or just out of high school.

[00:35:54]

So young people. And so, most of the time, people that are being employed by farms aren't necessarily going to spend the rest of their life working at a farm. So what we are striving towards right now is paying people more, giving people more responsibility. And trying to figure out how do we retain people for longer than just a season or a year, and how do they continue to grow with us so that we can have some institutional memory.

[00:36:27]

>> Emma Hendel: But that might be the way to go. We might find out that that's not how it works. But we're willing to give it a try. But most farms that we know of that we've worked for that we have contact with, go with the internship model. Sort of like turn and burn sort of deal where it's like maybe about the experience for the person as opposed to the success of the farm.

[00:37:00]

>> Sarah Wilds: So I know at least a few firms around here in the Concord area use the H2A labor force. But you said you don't have housing, and I know that's part of the program.

>> Emma Hendel: In the future we might have housing, and that could be a route that we go you.

[00:37:19]

There's also certain, it's also I feel like there's this misconception around the guest worker program. They are compensated at a very good hourly rate, which is more than we pay some of our employees. And so it's-

>> Sarah Wilds: It's an internship model?

>> Emma Hendel: Right, and so, that is perhaps a more expensive way to import somebody, but those people that are a part of this program, they are here to work, they are here to make money, and that's what they're here to do.

[00:37:57]

So you're going to get what you pay for essentially.

>> Sarah Wilds: Yeah, I talked to another farmer and he's his farm has been employing H2A people.

>> Emma Hendel: Did you talk to Barbee Farms?

>> Sarah Wilds: Yes.

>> Emma Hendel: Yeah, did you talk with Brent or you talk with his dad?

>> Sarah Wilds: Tommy.

[00:38:15]

>> Emma Hendel: Yeah, Tommy.

>> Sarah Wilds: He's so sweet. But yeah, he had nothing but good things to say about the program.

>> Emma Hendel: Yeah.

>> Sarah Wilds: And he said basically the same thing. They come and they have one mission. They wanna work, and so they have to satisfy you.

>> Emma Hendel: Exactly

>> Sarah Wilds: And you show them once, and they do it.

[00:38:32]

>> Emma Hendel: And it's not, I mean, like a lot of times it's not about they may have seen it done a different way. Doesn't matter. This is what you want, this is what I will do sorta deal. And I've worked around, not on a crew that has guest workers, but nearby farms with guest workers.

[00:39:01]

They are getting stuff down. They're like whoa. [LAUGH]

>> Sarah Wilds: Yeah, they don't mess around.

>> Sarah Wilds: So I guess sort of moving away, I guess, from the nitty-gritty of the farm.

>> Sarah Wilds: Are there any challenges that you face as a woman, or you have seen faced by women in general as farmers?

[00:39:28]

>> Emma Hendel: Me personally, nothing really beyond surface stuff. Or maybe some machismo or whatever where it's like you grew that, really? You're doing that, or you're driving that big truck? Or how did you do that, where's your husband? Blah, blah, blah. Just stuff like that. But I mean, honestly, for me personally, no.

[00:39:56]

Just beyond maybe a verbal questioning, but nothing ever where it's like a complete road block or like we're not going to give you a loan because you're A woman or we're not going to talk to you or let you into this space because you're a woman.

>> Sarah Wilds: Mm-hm, well, that's good.

[00:40:18]

>> Emma Hendel: Yeah.

>> Sarah Wilds: Glad to hear that.

>> Sarah Wilds: What about social media? So I know your farm has an Instagram and you send out newsletters. How important is that to your market? Your marketing?

>> Emma Hendel: That's a good question. I don't actually know for sure because we've always had the social media aspect.

[00:40:46]

Like it didn't really exist without it. I started doing the newsletter last year. And I actually think that that has really improved community engagement. I think it gives people a sense of ownership over the products that they're purchasing because they know what's going on with the farm in that week.

[00:41:07]

With Instagram and stuff, you can get a lot of inspiration from other farms. There's also, I think there's also a lot of anxiety that can come with putting stuff out there. And I would say 90% of stuff is positive. But that 10% stuff where people might message you, or people might ask a question and be upset that you don't want to share your proprietary knowledge.

[00:41:39]

Or something like that where it's like, you know it's really great that you're asking me a question but I think that you need to pay me for the answer. Like that can spark some really negative feelings in people. I mean we share a lot online, maybe even what some people would say are secrets.

[00:42:02]

Some people are like you share too much, some people are like you don't share enough. We really try and focus on the positive with what we share. And that is actually something that also draws criticism where people are like everything always looks so great at your farm, and there's never any rain, and you never talk about any of the problems.

[00:42:26]

But that's not what we're trying to share. We're not trying to share a pity story. We're not trying to share negative things, and that's not what our mission is on Instagram or on Facebook or whatever. But I think that there's a disconnect where people don't, sometimes people don't seem to remember that it's not the whole story.

[00:42:58]

And, so even if you might know that, on my social media I don't share every, well some people do share everything. But if you're on my social media I don't share everything. But sometimes people can forget to apply that other people's sharing on social media. So it's like maybe I don't wanna share that or maybe that's not what I want this page to focus on.

[00:43:22]

And so that 10% of people that might get catty, or might say weird things, or just might leave a comment where it's like, eff you, or something like that. A comment that we get a lot on social media is about use of plastic or whatever. And I'm like you're making this comment on a device with rare earth materials, like I don't think that we need to go there everybody.

[00:43:56]

>> Sarah Wilds: Yeah, a little plastic [INAUDIBLE]

>> Emma Hendel: I mean the plastic is what is enabling a lot of small farmers to do really great things. And so there is the argument of you're going to buy produce in the grocery store. That produce was produced using plastic, it's packaged in plastic.

[00:44:18]

But the difference between the produce in the grocery store and the produce that you're getting from your local farmer be it at the same grocery store, a farmers market or restaurant is yes, plastic was used. But a whole ton of fossil fuels weren't. And say some things like flown from California or driven from California.

[00:44:41]

Or even coming from Chile or wherever. I think it can be hard to sort of step back, because there is a crisis going on. But it needs to be more about coming together as opposed to trying to call people out or whataboutism. So there has to be a balance and you have to remember behind every action there’s a reason and a story and a journey that led people there to take it.

[00:45:16]

>> Sarah Wilds: And one small farm in one small location versus major corporations.

>> Emma Hendel: Yeah, it's gonna take corporations, governments, small farms and the individuals all working together. It can't just be like I feel called to tell everybody how they are living life wrong. In my opinion that's not going to inspire the change that we need.

[00:45:52]

>> Sarah Wilds: It's interesting sort of these call out cultures affecting farms but-

>> Emma Hendel: I would say, I think that's sort of again like an 80-20 sort of deal. Where it's 80% of people are going to listen to your story and form their own opinions. 20% of people are already going to have their opinions formed and there's not going to be much change to that opinion.

[00:46:20]

>> Sarah Wilds: And they're just going to let everybody know regardless of who's sort of on the end.

>> Emma Hendel: That's right.

>> Sarah Wilds: The other end?

>> Emma Hendel: Right.

>> Sarah Wilds: Yeah.

>> Emma Hendel: Because that's more about a personal need to do that sorta thing for your own improvement of your self-image. [LAUGH]

>> Sarah Wilds: Or whatever is going on.

[00:46:40]

>> Emma Hendel: Yeah.

>> Sarah Wilds: With that person.

>> Sarah Wilds: So what are those some other organisations that you partner with? I know you were saying that you were talking with Whole Foods or working with Whole Foods?

>> Emma Hendel: Yeah, we work with Lowe's foods, we work with Barbee Farms under Lowes food CSA program.

[00:46:59]

We also [COUGH] we're trying to form a relationship with Whole Foods, we're in our local Lowe's Foods on the shelf there. We work with Organic Harvest, which is a small grocery store in Charlotte. We also work with Let it Grow Produce and Colony Urban Farms store in Winston and Salem.

[00:47:25]

Those are two little local grocery stores that sell local products. We also, I'm a member of the Piedmont Culinary Guild. We're members of Carolina Farm Stewardship Association. And I'm actually a member of a Piedmont Triad Food Council. Which is just forming this year and so those are organizations that we work with.

[00:48:00]

>> Sarah Wilds: And how did you sort of get started with all these organizations? Like a lot of word of mouth, sort of knowing people who connected you or?

>> Emma Hendel: Well CFSA was Our friend Ben and so we became members of CFSA and they actually gave us a grant to pay for our first year GAP certification.

[00:48:23]

And they offered, as part of our membership we had access to consultation about getting a template for GAP's paperwork. Having a great woman named Patricia actually came out and looked at our farm and said, these are the changes that you need to make. And so that's a great organization.

[00:48:45]

They also have a conference every year for farmers that's usually held in Durham, and so that's a great way to connect. Piedmont Culinary Guild I got involved with because of our relationship with chefs and other food and beverage industry members. And so that they also have a conference, a symposium every year that's held in Johnson & Wales, the culinary school.

[00:49:14]

And so I'm a part of that organisation to stay in touch on a deeper level with our customers. And then also staying up to date on what's going on in the food and beverage world. And the food policy council, I actually, I don't know who necessarily invited me to that, but that was something that I go invited to do.

[00:49:45]

So I'm excited to see what direction we're going to go with that.

>> Sarah Wilds: Well, just sort of a wrap up question. Where do you see sort of the future of your farm now that you've hit that five year or about to hit that five year mark?

>> Emma Hendel: Yeah, so I would eventually, we're in the process of hopefully purchasing the farm that we lease now.

[00:50:13]

And in the future I would love to purchase some more rural land. And I would love to hand over management of that farm to another farm manager. And design a whole new project in the future, like maybe we'll grow acres and acres or broccoli, or maybe, who knows what we'll do.

[00:50:40]

And maybe even having our farm now becoming like a model farm or an incubator farm, or maybe an agrotourism farm, just because of its location. And so that's maybe one direction it could go. It could also turn in, we're still not quite done developing that property in terms of how we're gonna use it for farms.

[00:51:12]

Maybe we put in a tree nursery or maybe we put in some cane fruit, or there's a little bit more that we could do there. One thing that we've talked about doing with our land that is unoccupied right now is doing a more serious composting effort. And so we create a lot of compost, which we manage and reuse for various farm things, because we're doing the microgreens, and that's in trays.

[00:51:49]

And then once we use that we dump it into a compost pile and compost it. Anyways, enlarging a composting effort, perhaps even taking in materials from other places maybe, but that presents its own complication because it's difficult to figure out what you're taking in and you don't want.

[00:52:16]

But the compost that we generate, we know what it is, cuz we use a lot of potting soil. And so a lot of that great organic matter is really good to put back or used to build new growing areas. So that's one thing. So starting new projects, buying more land, growing more food, that's what I wanna do.

[00:52:42]

>> Sarah Wilds: All right, sound like a good goal.

>> Emma Hendel: Yeah.

>> Sarah Wilds: Right, well, thank you so much for your time.

>> Emma Hendel: You're welcome.

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