Livestock
Gilcrest Natural Farm - Amy Foster
Amy Foster discusses her twelve years as a livestock farmer and co-owner of Gilcrest Natural Farm in Iron Station, North Carolina. Mrs. Foster expresses her desire to control her food and develop her land as factors that led her to become a full time farmer. She explains why she chose cattle and chickens and describes the methods she uses to raise her animals naturally. Other topics include the usefulness of the Internet and North Carolina State University resources, pros and cons of urban development, farming as a business, and the importance of educating consumers.
Amy Foster was a 53-year-old woman at the time of interview, which took place at Gilcrest Natural Farm in Iron Station, North Carolina. She was born in Hastings, Minnesota in 1965. She received her BA from Hamline University and her MBA from St. Thomas University, both in St. Paul, Minnesota and was employed as a business analyst and farmer.
| Time | Subject |
| 0:00:07 | Opening |
| 0:00:25 | Getting into farming |
| 0:01:38 | Choosing livestock farming |
| 0:02:37 | Learning curve into farming |
| 0:03:59 | NC State Extension courses and assistance |
| 0:04:52 | Regulations |
| 0:06:02 | Certifications (GAP and Organic) |
| 0:08:28 | Organic methods |
| 0:09:08 | Naming the farm |
| 0:09:40 | Choosing which livestock to raise |
| 0:11:14 | Slaughtering and processing |
| 0:12:47 | Distribution |
| 0:13:53 | Partner organizations |
| 0:14:42 | Labor on the farm |
| 0:16:47 | Livestock vs. vegetable farming |
| 0:17:51 | Working with NC Farm School |
| 0:18:28 | Profitability of vegetables |
| 0:19:47 | Internet and social media |
| 0:23:35 | Predators |
| 0:25:32 | Neighbors and urban development |
| 0:30:05 | Average day on the farm |
| 0:32:36 | Feeding the animals |
| 0:33:46 | Chickens and grit |
| 0:36:00 | Challenges as a woman farmer |
| 0:38:18 | Employment prior to farming |
| 0:39:08 | Farming as a business |
| 0:40:40 | Shift to farming |
| 0:42:08 | Decision to farm |
| 0:45:20 | Future of the farm |
| 0:48:23 | Difficulty of getting into farming |
| 0:49:19 | Importance of educating consumers |
| 0:50:00 | Closing |
[00:00:08]
>> Sarah: All right, today is April 24th 2019, we are in Iron Station, North Carolina at Gilcrest Natural Farm. My name is Sarah Wyles and I am interviewing Emmy Foster.
>> Emily: Hi Sarah.
>> Sarah: Hi, so Emmy, how did you get into farming?
>> Emily: We were living on the lake, and not using it, and decided we would rather have open space than being on neighborhood.
[00:00:37]
So we started looking for land, and found our farm and moved here.
>> Sarah: Which lake?
>> Emily: Lake Norman.
>> Sarah: Okay.
>> Emily: Yeah.
>> Sarah: So it wasn't that big of a move?
>> Emily: No, we were still in the same school district and everything.
>> Sarah: Okay, what made you choose to do farming?
[00:00:56]
Was it just a matter of you had the land and you were already farming near Lake Norman, or you chose to move here to specifically to farm?
>> Emily: The farming kinda blossomed as an after effect, we wanted more space and we wanted to use the land to grow something.
[00:01:16]
We didn't know exactly what we were gonna do when we got here. We've always been backyard gardeners. We wanted a little more control over our food supply. We've been shopping with local farmers for several years and wanted to try our hand at it a little bit too. So we started small and now we're not small any more.
[00:01:37]
>> Sarah: Yeah, so what made you go from vegetable gardening to livestock?
>> Emily: Well, we started out getting 25 hands in and started raising our own eggs and selling the surplus and I've always wanted cattle. So we got two cows, two bulls actually, and fenced in a small portion of the acreage.
[00:02:04]
And things just kept growing from there as we started going to the farmers' market and we saw there was demand, things just kept growing each year. Plus, my kids were getting older and going to elementary school, so I had more time to devote to the farm. But yet I wanted a flexible schedule so I could be quote-unquote the stay at home mom.
[00:02:28]
But yet still generate a little income and and have something to do during the day.
>> Sarah: So how much of a learning curve was that?
>> Emily: Luckily, it was a gentle learning curve because we knew a lot of farmers in the area that we've been shopping with. They were very kind with their advice and and methodologies that people shared a lot with us.
[00:02:55]
YouTube is an invaluable resource to learn how to farm, as well as we relied on our local extension office a lot. That when they offered classes, we would attend, just calling them with questions, they would come out and help us so they were a great resource.
>> Sarah: Can you talk a little more about that, the extension courses?
[00:03:17]
>> Emily: Yeah, I guess, Gaston County, Laura Warden specifically, offered a lot of small farm-orientated courses. And we took a lot of courses about things that we're not doing, we learned about sheep and goats and different livestock species. But it also included information on taxation and how to handle regulations and things like that.
[00:03:44]
That extension really gave us what we needed for a well rounded farm. That we went looking for answers that they were able to answer any question we had. So we've always relied on extension and even today, I volunteer with them and still call and ask questions [LAUGH]. But their courses were very valuable and even, I think it was about five, six years ago we went to NC State Farm School.
[00:04:14]
We've been in operation for a while. But we really needed to check our profitability, our direction, our marketing. And the farm school course is more designed for people starting out. But it adapted for us to make it valuable to kinda check in with our operation and make our plans.
[00:04:37]
We've always had a business plan which they advocate you have but it really helped us update it and modernize it for where we wanted to go.
>> Sarah: So what regulations do you come under?
>> Emily: Being a livestock producer, we have to have a meat handler's license to sell meat to the public, and we are inspected for that annually.
[00:05:04]
Phillip showed up a couple weeks ago and they check your freezers, and your refrigeration, and temperatures and labeling.
>> Emily: That is our main inspection. There's other things we fall under as far as we're in the present value use program for taxation that we have to comply with that and do some filing.
[00:05:30]
The FSA, we have to do some filing each year. But because we're not GAP certified or we haven't sought organic certification and other things, our level of inspection is fairly minimal.
>> Sarah: Okay, do you fall under the Food Safety Modernization Safety Act at all?
>> Emily: They have not communicated to us that we need to do anything at this point in time.
[00:05:56]
I expect something eventually will come up with that.
>> Sarah: Is there a reason you're not GAP or organic certified, or was it just not worth the time and effort?
>> Emily: They don't have a lot of GAP certification for livestock, it's mostly focused on vegetables, I took a course at extension [LAUGH].
[00:06:18]
Talked about what you would have to do, there are certain things that make it not worthwhile for us that we'd have to adapt and change so many of our structures. And this goes with organic certification. We'd have to make so many changes that it really wouldn't pay off.
[00:06:38]
We use organic methods. We don't wanna be chemical-driven or conventional, but we're not certified. Ultimately, we see the consumer as our ultimate inspector. If they wanna see what's going on, we invite anybody to come and look.
>> Sarah: So what are those organic methods for livestock farming?
>> Emily: We would have to do the birthing on our farm and right now, I work with four of our neighbors to buy their milk cows and we raise them out here.
[00:07:08]
We don't really have enough space to operate a cow calf operation that could be profitable which is something I learned in farm school. [LAUGH] That helped crunch the numbers to see, could we do our own and really, the answer on paper was no. So that’s prohibitive for the beef as well as we would have to locate organically certified hay and organically certified feed.
[00:07:39]
There’s no organic feed producer nearby. We'd have to have it shipped in, and the cost is prohibitive again. Same with the chicken feed, there's no one producing it locally, so it's a barrier to entry for organics for us. There's a lot of things in our equipment we'd have to change that we view some treated lumber for fence post, they don't necessarily like that.
[00:08:05]
If your wire isn't coated, they don't like that. So to retrofit the farm to be truly organically certified. It just doesn't make sense financially, and we're not spring chickens any more. So [LAUGH] the amount of labor involved is kind of prohibitive for where we're at right now too.
[00:08:27]
>> Sarah: So what methods do you employ on the farm? I know the animal's are free-range and-
>> Emily: Yeah, the animals get to do what they're meant to do. We don't use any man-made chemicals. But we use our own chicken manure that's aged to fertilize. We don't vaccinate the cattle, we don't give them hormones or antibiotics, same with the chickens.
[00:08:58]
If you don't need a chemical, why would you use it? We operate pretty naturally and hence the name of the farm, Gilcrest Natural Farm.
>> Sarah: Where does the name come from?
>> Emily: My husband's name is Gil. And long ago I said, if we ever have a mountain house or a beach house, we should name it Gilcrest.
[00:09:18]
And it just wasn't gonna happen. So I'm like, let's use it for the farm. And we put the natural in there to kinda communicate what we're about. And it's also hard to use the word natural in labeling. So if we put in the farm name, it communicated for us what we wanted it to do.
[00:09:36]
So that's how we named our farm.
>> Sarah: So how did you choose which animals that you were going to raise? I know you said you always really wanted to raise cattle, and I guess chickens are sort of an easy start. But why not like pork or sheep?
>> Emily: Yeah, well chickens are kinda the gateway to farming.
[00:09:58]
They're lower investment, good turnover, that you always have a product whether it be eggs or meat. Cattle we chose because we did have that much acreage and in order to keep up with keeping it maintained and keeping it in the program, cattle made sense because they took up a lot of space.
[00:10:19]
We rejected pigs just because it's a third system. Each species needs its own watering system and its own fencing system, and I've always said two hands, two species. With juggling family and the farm and everything else, two is enough. So if we ever did do something, I'm still interested in goats.
[00:10:46]
So I'll never say never, but for right now, two is the right number of species for us.
>> Sarah: I guess if you have all your land devoted to the cattle, you can simply add more cattle cuz the system's already in place for them.
>> Emily: Right, and we've ramped up and down over the years.
[00:11:03]
We've had as few as 12 head and we've gone up to 36. 36 was too hard on our pastures, so 20 is kind of our sweet spot.
>> Sarah: Okay.
>> Emily: Yeah.
>> Sarah: And where is the meat, where are the animals slaughtered to process for the meat? Cuz I know you sell the meat yourself.
[00:11:23]
>> Emily: Right, we go to the farmers market to sell our meat. And chickens you can do yourself on the farm, or you can take them to a processor. We've processed on the farm in the past. Right now, we might do a little on farm this year. But primarily, we use a USDA inspected facility in Kingstree, South Carolina.
[00:11:45]
And we transport our birds down there, they do the dirty work, and then we pick them up in pretty plastic packages and bring them back. For the cattle, we use Cruise Meats over in Concord, and have for a long time. They're really a partner in our operation. In a given year, we'll slaughter anywhere from 12 to 18 head, depending on demand and when everybody's ready to go.
[00:12:14]
So they've been instrumental for us in helping us process our beef.
>> Sarah: Okay, so it's even the slaughtering and processing is pretty localized?
>> Emily: We try to be. We used to have a chicken processor that was closer to us, but unfortunately they closed. So it's a hike to South Carolina, but for the amount of chicken we need to raise, we needed to do larger batches and doing it ourselves completely, we just couldn't handle it.
[00:12:48]
>> Sarah: So where all do you distribute, I know you're at the Davidson Farmers Market, do you do any other markets?
>> Emily: Yeah, we go to the Charlotte Regional Market every Saturday, that's down off Billy Graham Parkway, by the airport. Every now and then, we'll sell to a chef.
[00:13:06]
It's not a main part of our business, but we're happy to work with chefs. And organic marketplace in Gastonia sells our meats too.
>> Sarah: Are you partnered with any wholesalers?
>> Emily: No we have never really embraced the wholesale market because our chicken suppl is seasonal. They aren't really party to that, they want a constant supply.
[00:13:36]
And for beef, because of our limitations on how many we can do here, everything we're raising, we're selling at retail. So wholesale just doesn't really make sense at this point. If we wanted to stop the farmer's market someday, then we could look at that.
>> Sarah: What other organizations are you partnered with?
[00:13:59]
I know a lot of farmers work with the Piedmont Culinary Guild. But it sounds more like you sell specifically to chefs.
>> Emily: Yeah, I need to become a member of the Piedmont Culinary Guild, [LAUGH] frankly. We've been members of Slow Food in the past, but I guess we've let that lapse.
[00:14:19]
The Carolina Farms Steward Association, remember.
>> Emily: And I think that's about it right now.
>> Emily: There is a lot of groups you can join and pay dues to, but from a time and money stand point we haven't really looked into a lot of those.
>> Sarah: So running the farm, obviously it's you and your husband, and you mentioned your husband is inside, is he doing sort of the paperwork aspect of it?
[00:14:52]
>> Emily: He works full time off the farm.
>> Sarah: Okay.
>> Emily: So he works for one of the big banks in town, and when he's done at the end of the day he will help out, which is wonderful. My main job is at the farm, but I also work off the farm too.
[00:15:07]
So we hire contractors to help us when we need a little extra labor right now. Two wonderful men are up staining our barn for us. It's a big job that we don't have the equipment for, so oftentimes we'll hire someone to help us do things that it just doesn't make sense to do ourselves.
[00:15:27]
We have two boys who are teenagers now, and they're a great help. It's their part-time job, so we are happy to have their help and we pretty much get by with that.
>> Sarah: Okay, so you just hire in people when you need them? Like mostly local?
>> Emily: Yeah, like we need to do some roadwork.
[00:15:52]
I'll probably seek out somebody to help with that. The winter was rough with all the rains, we've got some ruts we need to correct and move the water where we want it to go. So when we don't have the equipment or the labor then I'm out looking for help.
[00:16:14]
>> Sarah: You don't have any full time employees helping you with necessarily cattle or the chickens, it's more of just tasks on the farm, to upkeep the farm as a whole.
>> Emily: Right.
>> Sarah: Okay.
>> Emily: Yeah.
>> Sarah: It's interesting cuz I've been talking mostly to vegetable farmers who of course are having to constantly be in the field, to constantly look after the crops.
[00:16:38]
So I guess if you let the cattle and the chickens do as they please to some extent, you don't have to constantly be watching them.
>> Emily: No, our days are full. There's always more you can do. You always have a to-do list on the farm, and I think that's part of why we shied away from vegetables a little bit, that we just do them as a supplement when we have time.
[00:17:01]
The animals look at you and make noise, so they get your first attention. I've tried doing larger scale vegetable in the past but I ended up dropping it to focus on the animals. Even one of our extension agents said it's rare to see somebody successful doing livestock and vegetables at a substantial scale, which made me feel better because I felt like I was failing at vegetables.
[00:17:29]
[LAUGH]
Even this year with the wet spring, I didn't take the time to get the garden ready because it was too wet. And it was harder to do the chores out in the field because it was so wet and it sucked up all my time. It's always a balance.
[00:17:48]
You monitor and adjust, like with anything in life.
>> Sarah: So what do you do off the farm? Do you have a part-time job?
>> Emily: I have a part-time job with NC State, with the farm school as a matter of fact.
>> Sarah: Do you teach, or are you a mentor?
[00:18:05]
>> Emily: I've been a mentor with them. And right now I'm working on creating budgets for farm school for different farm crops, as well as some case studies.
>> Sarah: Oka, cool, but do you that mostly from home?
>> Emily: Yes, a lot of what I can do from home or over the phone, every now and then I have to travel to interview farmers.
[00:18:24]
Not unlike this. But it's been very interesting. And a lot of it focused on vegetables. So if we ever do get into vegetables it's probably changing the way I would do it.
>> Sarah: How would you do vegetables?
>> Emily: Well, I guess I've learned which vegetables are profitable and which are not doing the budgets.
[00:18:46]
And what scales affect what crops. You look at sweet corn, in a small amount, it's not profitable. But if you scale up, there is a place for profit. If you look at the profit per square foot that you're planting, it's very small for sweetcorn compared to some things, say like salad mix.
[00:19:10]
So it's really opened my eyes from the vegetable standpoint of where to put your labor and what kind of dollars you might get back from it. We've done that study for ourselves with our livestock, and I know exactly how much a chicken cost from birth to slaughter. And what effects our ratios, what makes it more profitable or less profitable, same for the cattle.
[00:19:39]
So it's interesting to see the vegetable side of it, but I'm enjoying the job.
>> Sarah: Nice.
>> Emily: Yeah.
>> Sarah: So yo you mentioned that you, yeah, that bee is stuck.
>> Emily: [LAUGH]
>> Sarah: It's having a hard time. So you mentioned earlier that you learned a lot from YouTube, just sort of I assume little how-to videos, like how do I fix this post, or whatnot.
[00:20:06]
How useful is the Internet, in general as a farmer?
>> Emily: It's a tool that I wouldn't wanna be without. I've been members of different forums over the years, to look up,, my chicken has this weird thing on its leg, what could it be? The books aren't always as descriptive as a picture.
[00:20:32]
The picture is worth a thousand words. And for researching new equipment, it's really been essential to do make or buy decisions. Do I want to buy this chicken coop, or make one myself? And just people are so willing to share ideas, it's really handy to look at five ways of fencing to know what's gonna be right for your land and your soil.
[00:21:02]
So I really enjoy doing research on the web. I probably do too much sometimes, but it's there, so you get sucked into that rabbit hole sometimes, but no, I like farming with the web. I've got a lot of books. But I haven't bought a book for probably two or three years, but I just really have gone to relying on the web.
[00:21:26]
>> Sarah: What about social media to connect with customers? I know you have a Facebook and a newsletter.
>> Emily: Yeah, we do a weekly newsletter we have for years, just about what's going on at the farm because it's a glimpse of life that most people aren't familiar with anymore.
[00:21:45]
People are so far removed from farms that back in the day, either you lived in a farming community or your grandparents had a farm, or somebody had a farm. And that's not the case anymore, so our weekly newsletter helps communicate that to people. We have a webpage, we do Facebook, and we post the newsletter on Facebook each week, and I just started doing Instagram, so it's fun to have some followers and see their comments.
[00:22:18]
That's probably enough social media for me right now though, cuz it's time consuming, and it takes away from the work.
>> Sarah: What kind of comments do you get?
>> Emily: Well, I guess I post the happy positive things, so I get happy positive comments back. When we got baby chicks, I showed them racing around and they were all chasing each other and they were going to the right.
[00:22:44]
So I commented that they don't know about NASCAR [LAUGH] because they all go to the left, but it's fun to just put up the fun pictures of what's going on.
>> Sarah: Do you get pushback for only putting up sort of the good when things are going well?
>> Emily: I haven't on Instagram, in the newsletter I'm pretty forward about what really goes on day-to-day.
[00:23:11]
If something happens that's not sunny, that's the reality of farming and that's what I wanna communicate to people. If we've had flooding issues, we talk about flooding Issues. If we had a predator attack, we talk about the predator attack. And we also talk about what we're gonna do different to prevent it next time.
[00:23:29]
So it's a great tool to really communicate our day-to-day life.
>> Sarah: Do you have a lot of predator attacks?
>> Emily: Not so much anymore. Raccoons have probably been our biggest problem over the year with the chickens. We found electricity really works well for them. And we protect all of our chicken coops and chicken tractors with hot wire at night, and that kind of solved that problem.
[00:23:56]
We went to that especially after the year of the skunk. A little bevy of skunks found us and that was a bad year, cuz not only do you have To clean up after the predators leave, it smelled awful [LAUGH]. But we have coyote, fox, weasels, owls, hawks, you name it.
[00:24:21]
But I guess over the years we just get strategic that if we see too many hawks around our chickens, we'll bring the cattle up closer and the motion of the cattle deters the hawks. If you call in crows with a crow caller in the spring, they will nest and crows keep foxes away because they chase them, they try and play with them.
[00:24:40]
So trying to find ways to make mother nature work for us has really helped our predator issue.
>> Sarah: So it sounds like the predators are mostly after the chicken, not the cattle.
>> Emily: Yeah, because we don't do the birthing here, we don't have a lot of the issues that you get with having small cows around.
[00:25:00]
So by the time they come to us, they are about 6 months old and 500 pounds and the coyotes don't mess with them.
>> Sarah: I'm from up north, so I think of predators as bears and mountain lions.
>> Emily: Luckily, knock wood, we don't have that yet. But there have been bear sightings last year around here, but we didn't have any sign of the bears.
[00:25:23]
That would be bad. But there's other farms with cow-calf operations around us, so I think they would favor them instead of us. We'll see.
>> Sarah: So you have a lot of farming neighbors?
>> Emily: We do. Luckily development is really booming in this area but there's some old time farmers who are gonna be here as long as we are.
[00:25:45]
And in fact there are a lot of the people I get my calves from. So then I work with four of our neighbors to get our calves.
>> Sarah: How is development affecting your operation? Because I mean I had to drive through a development to get here.
>> Emily: That used to be a hay field when we moved here, and it's been a change because even though they move in to near existing farms, people don't really know what to expect anymore as far as the noises and the smells.
[00:26:20]
And the kind of traffic we generate versus being in an urban neighborhood, which for the most part is where most of the folks come from.
>> Emily: And their understanding of country and a farmer's understanding of country are sometimes two different things. The county helps us work with that, because we're part of the present value used program, when somebody buys property near a farm, they receive a letter saying, realize you're moving next to a farm.
[00:26:55]
It has farm noises and farm smells. Animals have sex outside. If this is upsetting to you, this is your notification that it's going to happen. And people have complained. The county folks come out, okay, hey, how you doing? Cuz I've participated on committees with most of them so I know all the people in the county regulatory agencies, and yeah, heard you had some chicken noise.
[00:27:24]
I'm like, yeah, [LAUGH] chickens make noise. Unfortunately they have to come out,
>> Emily: Whenever somebody files a complaint they have to come out and investigate, but it's tampered down since the neighborhood's filled up and people are used to it now. The one thing we were hoping we wouldn't get, and the developer of course promised us we wouldn't get, is increased runoff.
[00:27:53]
That we've dealt with a lot more water anderosion problems since the neighborhood went up than we were told we would have to. And now it's a done deal, there's nothing we can do. So the neighborhood is kinda bittersweet, it did give us much better access to our farm that we have a paved road connected to our gravel road.
[00:28:14]
We used to have to travel through another farmer's farm where we had an easement and it was just kind of a dirt road, and it would wash out. So there are benefits. Some of the people have purchased things from us over the years, so it's not all bad.
[00:28:34]
Development brings customers. There's a couple developments, large developments, a couple miles from us that are going up. With the change in how retail business is done, I'm planning on doing deliveries to their neighbourhoods when they get built up. Amazon has kind of spoiled us that everything should come to our door again.
[00:28:58]
So why not meat and eggs that instead of hiring somebody to do with third market to try and expand our base, I've got a third market in my backyard because people are coming to me.
>> Sarah: So if you consider doing a foreign stand and having just the locals comes to pick things up or-
[00:29:21]
>> Emily: We can do that a little bit, we're not zoned for a farm stand where we can have regular hours and days, and all that. If somebody wants to come see the farm and buy something while they're here as a portion of agro-tourism, that's allowed. So I've got some folks who'd like to do that.
[00:29:40]
In fact I think I've had two groups come this week because it's spring break in our county, and so that's nice. But I don't really want a farm stand anyway because it would interrupt what I'm doing every day. So not knowing when people are coming wouldn't really work with trying to get chores done.
[00:30:00]
Some things you can't stop in the middle of.
>> Sarah: What does a average day look like for you?
>> Emily: I guess during the school year get everybody up and out of the house and have a cup of coffee or two [LAUGH].
I usually plan my week on Sunday and get it all written down.
[00:30:23]
I'm a list maker. So grab my list, head to the barn, and start feeding the barn cats and check the freezers. I have a very set routine for about the first hour of things that I do and check. One thing that we've just put in, I've got automatic chicken doors that raise and lower with the sunlight.
[00:30:48]
So I don't have to let the chickens out everyday anymore. But I still don't trust them so I'm checking [LAUGH] to make sure they're open everyday. Although this morning I realized I might have to adjust them a little bit, they're opening earlier than normal. And I saw some feathers on the ground, I'm like, I don't know if somebody got carried off, but maybe I wanna open them a little later because the hawks eat breakfast before I let my girls out.
[00:31:16]
And so that's part of my morning routine, is just kinda check on everybody, monitor everything, count noses, whatever the case may be. And then after that there's always a project going on, or six and you gotta feed everybody every day. So most of the activity right now, because it's cooler, I plan for the end of the day and when my husband's done, that we can do a lot of things together.
[00:31:49]
I've got this frozen shoulder right now, so I need help lifting. When it gets hotter, I'll try and get everything knocked out in the morning before it gets hot. The animals are happier to move and be fed in the morning too, so you just kinda adapt seasonally. As to what's going on, the Summer time, usually one of the boys will come help me.
[00:32:12]
Now that they're driving now, they'll probably get jobs off the farm and I won't have as much help, so we'll see. And then end of the day you do another go round to make sure everybody's okay, tuck everybody in, hook up wires where they need to be, hook up so everybody's safe, hard task.
[00:32:34]
>> Sarah: How many times do you actively feed the animals cuz I know obviously, they have a reason as well?
>> Emily: I try and keep it everybody on a 24-hour schedule, just for ease of labor, that we scale up or scale down our systems so we only have to actually be hands on with them once a day, so it seems to work pretty well.
[00:32:57]
>> Sarah: So they get a nice breakfast, and then they-
>> Emily: Yeah, depending if it's, right now, everybody gets fed around four to five o'clock, but in the heat that'll move to eight o clock, and everybody just adapts. But in Summer time the chickens drink more water cuz it's hot, so we scale up the amount of water we have and how many gallons they have available to them.
[00:33:23]
And in cooler months, they might be able to make it on five gallons a day, so it just kind of depends what they need to make it that 24 hours. But I guess I always go through and do a check at the opposite time of day because you don't know when water's gonna leak or something is just gonna be off.
[00:33:42]
>> Sarah: Or somebody tips a bowl or-
>> Emily: Right, yeah.
>> Sarah: So I saw a picture in one of your newsletters of a chicken and a, was it an oyster shell, bath?
>> Emily: Yes.
>> Sarah: Can you explain what that is?
>> Emily: I had just filled this tub with oyster shells, and we feed our chickens oyster shells, just free choice to help with the grit they need as well as supply them with calcium to make sure their egg shells are nice and hard.
[00:34:11]
And she just decided she was queen of the roost and hopped in, took a dust bath, flapped her wings up, and got all that dust under her feathers, and she just sat there and pecked at any of the other girls that came around. [LAUGH] So it was one of those picturesque moments that I like to try and capture.
[00:34:35]
>> Sarah: Where do you get the oyster shells?
>> Emily: Our feed company actually has them, or you can go to any farm store, like Tractor Supply or Southern States, and get them. They come in a 50 pound bag and they're just crushed oyster shells, bite sized for chicken.
>> Sarah: All right, just part of chicken feed in general.
[00:34:54]
>> Emily: Yeah, they get a little bit of grit just from when they peck around on the ground, but that this just kind of serves multiple purposes and-
>> Sarah: What is grit?
>> Emily: Grit is just any small stone or a seed casing or something that's not readily digestible. They will hold that in their crop, so, as they eat other food The crop's like a big muscle gizzard people might call it, and it just helps grinds up the food before it goes into the rest of their digestive system.
[00:35:29]
>> Sarah: So it's kind of like a tumbler almost inside?
>> Emily: Yeah.
>> Sarah: Okay.
>> Emily: Our stomach contracts a little bit to massage the food and break it down, this is our stomach on steroids.
>> Sarah: All right.
>> Emily: Yeah.
>> Sarah: So now I know what a gizzard is for the first time in my life.
[00:35:48]
>> Emily: Actually the gizzard is a separate piece, the crop and the gizzard are not quite the same thing. But most people think the gizzard is the crop, but they both do similar things.
>> Sarah: So it sounds like you really do a lot of, you're the farm manager, essentially?
[00:36:07]
>> Emily: Yes, I wear many hats. [LAUGH]
>> Sarah: Have there been any issues you've faced, as a woman, managing your farm?
>> Emily: Earlier on, I think I faced more than I do now because I was a little green and didn't know things that you walk into the cattlemen's meeting or something.
[00:36:30]
And first it's called the cattlemen's meeting, and you're the only woman in the room. So it's cute, you're not necessarily treated as a professional right away. But over the years as you get to know people, and you become part of the farming community, those issues melted away. Going for a loan for our barn, we're both co-owners of the farm, my husband and I, so we go together but when they address questions they ask my husband, and knows 95% of what I know that goes on in the farm.
[00:37:12]
But it just, as a liberated woman it grates on you to not be 100% of who you are and taken for 100% of your value, you get used to it, I suppose. It's part of an evolving role for women to be farm owners, and I don't let it bother me.
[00:37:38]
There's a lot of better things to worry about in the world, so it's all right.
>> Sarah: Yeah I've talked to some other, again, vegetable farmers and there's that initial sort of wet behind the ears, I don't know what I'm doing, but then once you start knowing what you're doing, people are like, well, you know what you're talking about, so-
[00:38:01]
>> Emily: Right, yeah, and I guess it would be like that for anybody, once you can walk the walk and talk the talk. If you were 22 years old, regardless of if you're male or female, you'd probably get the same look, you have to grow into your role.
>> Sarah: So what did you do before became sort of a full time farmer I know you said you have an MBA.
[00:38:26]
>> Emily: Right I was an IT geek a business analyst but,
>> Emily: I worked for large corporations, developing software systems, writing documentation, training, the whole software development life cycle, which has really helped me in farming, actually. Our farming's pretty much been Six Sigma-ed, and [LAUGH] I know how much everything costs, and how to budget, and how to price, and that you wouldn't think an MBA and farming go together but it really has for me anyway, that I've been able to use my education to create a better more efficient farm.
[00:39:09]
>> Sarah: That's something that kind of struck me is how much farming is essentially just a business, we think of farming as, something our grandparents did for subsistence, and you know, then they just sold the rest.
>> Emily: Right.
>> Sarah: But now people running it like the business, they would look at the market, what's the hole in the market, what can we fill?
[00:39:32]
>> Emily: Well, and how do I save money on my costs? I did a time study one year and I recorded how much time I was spending on each activity, and it really changed the way we brood our chickens. I discovered I was spending a lot of time there, and I wasn't getting a lot of profit out of my activities.
[00:39:53]
So what could I do differently to minimize that time and maximize the longevity of the chicks and the health of the chicks during that time, and it changed a lot of our method I need to do it again because, there's always room for improvement, just the little addition of the chicken doors that we used to pay our kids a buck every night to go close the chicken doors.
[00:40:20]
So there's $365 and a chicken door costs, $200, so in two years that paid for and little did I know my husband up the rate $2 a day. Well these are already paid for [LAUGH] so it's come in handy for a lot of different things.
>> Sarah: So because you started it sounds like you kind of gradually shifted towards farming, there was an update, you know, you just suddenly quit working as IT and suddenly was, I'm making my money of chickens now.
[00:40:56]
>> Emily: No, it was very gradual, when our kids were born, we decided that one of us should stay home and nurture and be a full time parent, so that was me. And when we moved to the land, we started the vegetable garden and little by little, just to see what we could fit into our life without upending our life.
[00:41:21]
We did a little try before you buy and I went to work for another farmer at the farmer's market every Saturday to see, are the boys all gonna survive okay on their own without me for six hours? They did just fine, [LAUGH] so it was very gradual and the nice thing about farming is it's scalable.
[00:41:43]
You can scale up or scale back, we tried doing three markets and hiring somebody for two years, and we decided no, the third market wasn't very profitable, it just stretched us too thin, it was too complicated. So now we're back to two markets, and I like sleeping in that extra half hour on Saturday morning instead of four thirty, I can get up at five, so yeah.
[00:42:08]
>> Sarah: So what sort of drew you to farming, did you come from a farming background, like your parents or grandparents or?
>> Emily: No one's lived on a farm in my family since my great-grandparents. I grew up in a farming community, and I loved to go out to my farming friends' houses because it was just different and more fun climbing on the hay, and if they had horses and seeing the animals.
[00:42:34]
But no, it was really control over our food supply that really led us to do more besides the backyard garden, that we wanted to be able to subsist for ourselves, we're kind of homesteaders in a way. And then when we were growing too much and the demand was there, I'm like well this is kind of a built-in job.
[00:43:00]
And that's when we tried, you know, working at farmers market and so I figured if we want to eat this way, certainly there's other people. And we're doing this in 2007, 2008 when the market was going up and then tanking. And we figured, well if we could make it through 2008 and people are still buying our food, we've got something here, we just kept refining our methods and learning more all the time.
[00:43:27]
And so gradually, over time, everything just keeps growing.
>> Sarah: So who between you and your husband, who sort of led the way towards farming was it a joint effort, was it you?
>> Emily: That's pretty much my fault, [LAUGH] but we did have a joint interest in using our land, making it be productive, trying to improve the quality of the land, create something sustainable.
[00:44:01]
The last time this land has been farmed was back in the 40s and it was cotton farming. So when we were cutting down trees and putting up fences it was really very much a joint effort, because I might be really good at planning but the muscles was more my husbands', and what man doesn't like driving a tractor?
[00:44:27]
So [LAUGH] it really has been a complement to both of our lives, I would say, yeah.
>> Sarah: So when did you move? I know you said that this farm was started around 2008.
>> Emily: 2007, we started selling to the public and we moved on to the land in 2006.
[00:44:45]
>> Sarah: Okay, so when did you sort of move out of the city towards Lake Norman.
>> Emily: Let's see, we moved in Lake Norman in 2001, yeah, we built a house and,
>> Emily: And we enjoyed it, there was nothing wrong with it, just our preferences kinda changed, yeah. We wanted to have more space and be a little more natural.
[00:45:20]
>> Sarah: So what do you see as the future of your farm, do you see it as a business, handing it down to your sons, or maybe selling it off at some point or?
>> Emily: Right now, as teenagers our sons have worked hard and are not interested in farming as a career which is fine.
[00:45:37]
At their age I wasn't interested in farming as a career either, so like any good business plan we ever exit strategy that, if we get to the point where we're too infirm to run it ourselves anymore, we can lease the land, we can sell, we can put it in a conservation program.
[00:45:59]
We don't have any development options because of our access, the road is too narrow, so making a housing development out of it is not an option which suits us fine. We wouldn't want to see that happen to our farm, so we've got options. We'll see what happens, we've got a good 20 or 30 years, and the children and all, go through their personal midlife crises and maybe then they wanna come back, and so we're keeping our options open, but it's good to know what your options are.
[00:46:34]
>> Sarah: But for now you're gonna stay here, you're not looking to like add more land or?
>> Emily: No, we've considered that in the past, there's nothing for sale adjacent to us and when you do the numbers to travel to another location to tend cattle every day, it didn't really make sense because it's more time invested in the operation and then you've got more to market.
[00:47:01]
When we went to farm school that we decided, you know if we got bigger we'd have to hire employees, and it would really change the scale of our farm that we needed to look inward at our efficiencies and improve that instead of growing, physically, so we opted not to become the super farmers.
[00:47:26]
>> Sarah: So it sort of just mastering what you have and making it as efficient as possible?
>> Emily: Correct.
>> Sarah: Gotcha, I guess that makes it easier for you as an individual to manage it?
>> Emily: It does, but some days it's a little daunting to wake up and know your to do list is longer than you can physically accomplish, but you just choose your priorities and if you need help, you hire help.
[00:47:55]
You choose what you're good at, to do yourself and hire out other things or sometimes things just go undone. You choose what's on fire and try and prevent fires, not literal fires, we're not burning anything, [LAUGH] but that you just do the preventative maintenance so you don't have these crises, we've learned that the hard way.
[00:48:23]
>> Sarah: Well is there anything that you wanted to talk about that I didn't ask you?
>> Emily: I guess I would like to talk about the future of farming a little more.
>> Sarah: Sure please.
>> Emily: That it’s hard, it’s difficult for new people to get into farming. We were lucky that we had assets and we were of an age where we had money to invest in our farm.
[00:48:52]
The young people that have the passion and desire to farm today are having a difficult time, there's organizations to help with grants and loans, a lot more than when we started. Just to find land for some people is so difficult, but it would be nice, going forward, if it got easier and easier for people to farm.
[00:49:18]
And I guess I would also mention the consumer end too. The more people understand about what it takes to get food to the farmer's market, and why small farmers are important in our economy, the better they're gonna understand why they're paying what they're paying for their food and understand what the quality is, and the freshness, and the economical models that go with it.
[00:49:47]
That I like seeing all the education, including your project, about how food gets to the table, and I think it's important to keep having that discussion, so thank you for getting this.
>> Sarah: Yeah, thank you.
>> Emily: Yeah.
>> Sarah: Well, unless you have anything else, I think that's a good way to wrap it up.
[00:50:05]
>> Emily: I would agree.
>> Sarah: All right.
>> Emily: Thank you Sara.
>> Sarah: Thank you.
Ellis Farms - Audra Ellis
Audra Ellis is the co-owner of Ellis Farms in Lincolnton, North Carolina. Rick and Audra Ellis decided in 2012 to restart the old Ellis family farm that had shut down in the 1970s. They raise pastured pork and chicken, sorghum to make sorghum molasses which the Ellis’ have been making for over 75 years, and they have Nigerian Dwarf dairy goats. Ms. Ellis speaks about learning how to start a farm and farming techniques, as well as her experiences at the area’s farmers’ markets, its customers, and how they have responded to market demand.
| Time | Subject |
| 0:00:14 | Introduction |
| 0:01:13 | Ellis Farms and its products |
| 0:01:36 | The Ellis family sorghum molasses |
| 0:04:15 | How the Ellis' entered into farming |
| 0:07:21 | Making changes according to market demand |
| 0:08:51 | Learning how to farm |
| 0:14:09 | The challenges of starting a farm |
| 0:16:51 | Relationship with the State Extension Office |
| 0:18:28 | Agricultural tourism |
| 0:21:29 | A typical day on the farm |
| 0:25:05 | Interest among the Ellis children |
| 0:26:24 | Identifying and treating Bumblefoot and other ailments |
| 0:30:16 | More changes according to market demand |
| 0:33:00 | Observations about other farms |
| 0:35:51 | Buying local |
| 0:36:53 | The public understanding of food |
| 0:40:25 | Entering the farmers' market economy and customer response |
| 0:42:21 | Dealing with loss from the weather |
| 0:44:24 | Advertising and using social media |
| 0:46:07 | The impact of development on farming |
| 0:47:53 | The loss of dairy farms |
| 0:50:11 | Guernsey Girl Creamery and competing with box stores |
| 0:54:18 | Learning to deal with rejection |
| 0:55:49 | Membership in the American Dairy Goat Association |
| 0:56:43 | The local farming community |
| 1:00:42 | Receiving help and helping others |
| 1:03:43 | What people need to know about farmers and farming |
| 1:07:55 | The lack of interest among the younger generation |
| 1:10:38 | The future of Ellis Farms |
| 1:12:51 | Final thoughts: Supporting local businesses |
| 1:16:23 | End of Interview |
[00:00:07]
>> [MUSIC]
[00:00:14]
>> Tom Grover: My name is Tom Grover. This interview is part of the Queens Garden Oral Histories of the Piedmont Foodshed. An oral history project conducted by graduate students from the University of North Carolina at Charlotte. This project seeks to collect the stories of those who grow, cultivate, produce and distribute fresh food in the greater Charlotte region.
[00:00:36]
Today's date is Wednesday, May the 8th, 2019. I am with Audra Ellis at Ellis Farms in Lincolnton, North Carolina. Audra would you please introduce yourself and tell us how long you've been farming.
>> Audra Ellis: Okay, sure. This is Audra Ellis. I am one-half of the ownership of the Ellis Farms.
[00:00:57]
Ellis Farms is owned by myself and my husband Rick Ellis and we started farming about 2012, I would say, is when we initially started everything out.
>> Tom Grover: Okay, so what is Ellis Farms and what do you produce on it?
>> Audra Ellis: Okay, we primarily raise pasture raised pork and chicken.
[00:01:21]
We also grow sorghum, which is used to make sorghum syrup or molasses, as some people call it. And my husband's family has been making molasses for probably close to 80 years in this area.
>> Tom Grover: Did you start out with sorghum or-
>> Audra Ellis: We've always made sorghum, the family has always kept that up and even without the produce and the animals and those kinds of things, his family's always grown sorghum and made molasses.
[00:01:53]
We are actually the last family in the county that still make molasses that in the old fashioned way. I think there's a couple families in Cleveland County that still do it. And a couple families in Gaston County that still do it. But as far as I know, we're the last family in this county that still makes sorghum syrup from molasses.
[00:02:17]
So we've, like I said, been doing that every season for the past umpteen generations [LAUGH].
>> Tom Grover: I grew up in New York State, upstate New York, and I knew a family that made syrup and is it similar process?
>> Audra Ellis: Well, if you buy molasses in the store, like what you see black strap molasses that molasses, comes as a byproduct from making sugar.
[00:02:45]
Like white sugar, so sorghum syrup is from the sorghum plant, so it looks like a sugar cane plant and it looks like cane, it's a long. It looks like corn as it's growing up, but then there's not going to be any corn coming off the stalk. It's just a straight stalk with leaves.
[00:03:06]
So when it's time to harvest, we plant it in like, June, July, harvest in the fall September October-ish time when it starts to get cooler, so we strip the leaves off and then we squeeze the juice out of the stalk. And then to make the syrup you're basically doing a reduction.
[00:03:26]
So you're cooking that syrup over a fire, over an eight, ten hour period until it reduces down to a dark syrup. So it has a consistency of like maple syrup, maybe a little thicker than pancake syrup, but it's a dark, brown color, almost like an amber color.
>> Tom Grover: Okay, I know they always burn off more sap than they actually get syrup in.
[00:03:58]
>> Audra Ellis: Hm-mm.
>> Tom Grover: Is it similar with sorghum?
>> Audra Ellis: Similar, cuz we may start out with 160 gallons of juice and end up with 25 gallons of syrup once it's all cooked down.
>> Tom Grover: Okay.
>> Tom Grover: So what then influenced you to become a farmer?
>> Audra Ellis: It was really my fault probably, because I said that I wanted to get a few chickens and when I said few, I had in my mind, like six chickens.
[00:04:33]
Get a few eggs, and go with that. Once we started with the chickens, then I kept bringing chickens home and well this one's cute, or this one's, you know, I was looking at colors, and feather color, and whether they had feathered legs and bushy hair and all kinds of different, but I never knew how many breeds of chickens there were, til I started wanting to get chickens for eggs.
[00:05:01]
So we started out with six chickens and then that moved quickly to probably 20 at that point, and it was around that time that I have a couple friends who have goats. So we initially started out with two pygmy goats. But we quickly figured out, basically you're just raising those for fun as a pet.
[00:05:28]
I had several friends who raised dairy goats. So we sold the pygmies and brought in a pregnant dairy goat and we got her and another goat as her companion, and that's how we got into raising the Nigerian Dwarf breed of dairy goat which is as a miniature dairy goat.
[00:05:52]
So, once we got those, that gravitated into us getting registered with the American Dairy Goat Association and we started doing some breeding and things like that and around that time, my husband was like, I really want to revamp the family farm. And I was like what are you talking about.
[00:06:11]
And he was like, well, my papa used to raise vegetables and what they used to call truck farming and he would take his produce all over and sell to various businesses and things like that, and sell from the back of the truck. And he said, you know we've got all this land here.
[00:06:32]
Like I said in that pre-questionnaire, Ellis Farms is comprised of about, well the original home place was 100 acres. So everybody on the 100 acres is related, so I jokingly call it the compound because we're all family here. So Ellis farms is comprised of about 30 acres outta the 100.
[00:06:54]
So that's the portion where my home and my father-in-law's home, who lives next door to us, our residences are on those 30 acres and then we farm, I would say probably 25 of that or so. So with that property being where we grew the sorghum and things like that, we decided to expand and we initially did produce.
[00:07:21]
We we got involved with the local farmer's market. We set up as a vendor. We started selling produce and we were doing pretty well. But what we noticed was that there were other produce vendors. But there was no, there was one beef vendor. There was nobody there that so pork or chicken.
[00:07:41]
So we started trying to think, okay, we need a business plan here. Do we wanna be one of four people selling produce and all selling from the same thing? Or do we wanna go and start making money and providing a product that nobody else has here. So that's how we got into the pasture pork and chicken and kind of moved away from the produce.
[00:08:03]
Now we still have garden, That we have, amongst ourselves and family. And if we have overages, we do sell those at the market. But that's when we decided to fence off and start doing pasteurized pork and getting our meat handlers license so that we can process chicken on farm and sell that chicken publicly.
[00:08:25]
So that's kinda how we gravitated, it was more of a business decision to go from just growing vegetables and selling eggs to, to really getting into it. And, getting our license and we have to be inspected by the state of course, since we sell meat publicly, so getting into that and learning the ins and outs and that.
[00:08:51]
It's all been a learning process because neither of us have a back ground in agriculture other than just growing a garden and raising cats and dogs. I learned that we learned a lot on YouTube, and I bought books on raising goats and books on raising chickens. And learned how to give a chicken a shot and doctor an injured leg and all those kinda things that it comes with.
[00:09:19]
But the only formal education we did, which was the best money I ever spent was, I did a it's called a summer short course at Western Piedmont Community College up in the mountains. It was four Saturdays over the summer. And one day was goat day, one was chicken day, one was, can't remember what the third day was, and that was veterinary care day.
[00:09:50]
And I spent a 100 bucks to do that short course. I learned so much information and doing that and that kinda helped, just give us some more, you know, stuff in the toolbox
>> Tom Grover: Was it, was it put on by the school or?
>> Audra Ellis: It is.
>> Tom Grover: So do they have?
[00:10:09]
>> Audra Ellis: Western Piedmont has a pretty extensive agricultural program with classes and you can actually get like an associate‘s degree and some certifications through them. They actually have a farm, a campus farm, which is where we did a lot of the hands on classroom work with the goats. They actually have goats in a pasture and caretakers and students that are actually out there working with the goats and things like that.
[00:10:36]
That was pretty cool. They have a greenhouse and all sorts of stuff.
>> Tom Grover: That's the first I've heard of that
>> Audra Ellis: Really?
>> Tom Grover: Yeah, Yeah I think it's great but I was just wondering if, how did you learn about that?
>> Audra Ellis: I think somebody shared a link on Facebook.
[00:10:53]
And myself and a friend of mine who also raises goats she has pygmies, and she also has chickens. She was like I'm gonna take this course. Do you wanna take it with me? And to cuz neither one wanted to go by ourselves. So I looked into it. And we saw what they were doing.
[00:11:11]
And at that time we had chickens, we had goats. The veterinary care piece was good and I was like, yeah this sounds interesting. So we paid our $100 tuition and and went and did it. And it was very informative, very well put on and it's, because it was in the summer, it was helpful.
[00:11:32]
And on a Saturday so we didn't have to take time off work and things like that. So it's very easily accessible for plain Jane people like me who work every day. But, so that we didn't have to take time off work. And for 100 bucks for all that we got and that series was really good.
[00:11:55]
>> Tom Grover: Have they offered other programs like that too?
>> Audra Ellis: Yeah, they have a whole series of stuff. They have summer short courses. You can go on their website and see, they do like a business class for farmers and and marketing, and all sorts of things to help small farmers succeed, I guess is the best way.
[00:12:20]
>> Tom Grover: Based on your experience there, what did you notice with the class? Was it well attended?
>> Audra Ellis: There were probably 15 of us in the summer short course and they were from all over. There were from multiple counties in this region, the mountain western region. Probably because of where the college is situated because it was good hour drive for us to get there.
[00:12:57]
It was in Marion, I think, where Western Piedmont is? But it was the fact that they had hands on stuff, because they have an own campus farm, that was helpful versus just talking to me in the classroom. And being able to show me how to give injections. And talk to me about what certain diseases look like and show me what to watch for.
[00:13:28]
And point out different things on the body of the goat that I need to pay attention to. Teach me how to, trim hooves and that's how I learned how to trim goat hooves myself, versus having to get a vet to come out and do it was taking that course, because I didn't know what I was doing.
[00:13:46]
So learning in that class and I was able to come home and demonstrate and show my husband so he could help me do it. Cuz it takes two of us. One to hold, one to trim. So that was very helpful and I thought the price tag, it was 100 bucks was very affordable for what you get, in the class.
[00:14:08]
>> Tom Grover: When you were dealing with, getting the meat license, and just in general getting the farm up and running, did you find the experience difficult? Or was it just pretty much straight forward?
>> Audra Ellis: It's sort of half and half. I would say, it would be difficult for someone who is not research savy, like if you didn't know a general idea of where to look or what to search for to find what you need.
[00:14:48]
If you're not savy in that regard, the information is difficult to find. But I'm college educated. So I kinda can navigate, and research, and find things. And I have a background in criminal justice. That's what my full time employment is. So I investigate things by nature, by trade.
[00:15:11]
That's what I do. So but if you have no background in that, it could be difficult to find, to find out okay, what are the requirements for a meat handler's license? And how do you get tax exemption status, so you that you don't have to pay sales tax for feed, or supplies, at a tractor supply.
[00:15:33]
Or cuz we had to file with that, to be tax exempt as a farm and there's paperwork and tax paperwork that you know order to maintain that certification. There's paperwork every year that you have to turn in to maintain your tax exempt status. And there's paperwork you have to turn in for the county, so that your continue to pay farmer's tax on property.
[00:16:01]
If you're not savvy in navigating that research and that it could be difficult Difficult for a layperson if you don't have a connection that you can call and say, where'd you find this, or how did you locate that? And for me, if I couldn't find it, I have enough people in this community who also have existing farms, that I could call them and say, hey, I'm having difficulty finding this out.
[00:16:31]
Or have you ever dealt with this before? And people are open and helpful, and everybody kinda bands together and helps one another. But if you didn't have that resource, if you didn't have other farms that you're connected to that have been through the process, or you weren't research savvy, it could be difficult.
[00:16:51]
>> Tom Grover: Have you dealt with the extension?
>> Audra Ellis: Mm-hm, quite a bit, mm-hm. Our extension used to primarily deal with our farmers markets. But they stepped away from maintaining the farmers markets a couple years ago, and it switched over to the county parks and rec office. So previously, we dealt a lot with the extension because of our relationship with the farmers market.
[00:17:16]
But we do soil testing, and so we get our soil samples and turn it in with the extension. And if my husband has crop questions, fertilize questions, we have specific agents that specify with that, so he'll call them and ask questions. So we deal with them some, too.
[00:17:40]
>> Tom Grover: Okay, and your relationship with them is good?
>> Audra Ellis: Mm-hm, mm-hm, yeah, actually, we've developed a good enough relationship with them that, last year, they did a local Lincoln County farm tour, and they asked us to be a part of that. So they did one end to Lincoln County to the other, from the eastern end to the western end.
[00:18:06]
I think they did four stops in a day, and we were one of the stops. So they had a big charter bus with people on it that brought them in. And we did a wagon tour around the farm, and sold some of our product, and talked about our stuff, and they got to see the animals, and things like that.
[00:18:27]
>> Tom Grover: When did you start opening the farm up to tours like that?
>> Audra Ellis: Let's see, it was probably a good two or three years after we were established and up and running that we were involved with the Charlotte Area Farm Tour. We did that one year, and then, for whatever reason, I'm not sure why they stopped doing it.
[00:18:51]
But Rick and I, when we first started out, we went to Chapel Hill and did, I think it's called the Triad Farm Tour, or something along those lines. But we spent the night in the Chapel Hill/Durham area, and it was a two-day thing that our ticket paid for.
[00:19:15]
And it was on a charter bus, and we spent the night in a motel. And one day, you go to this many farms, and another day, you go to this many farms. And I had a notebook, and I was taking pictures, because that was when we started out.
[00:19:29]
So that was the best way for us to get information from what other people have tried and failed at or tried and worked, and what worked for them might not work for us. Asking questions and things like that. But that was a really cool thing that we decided to do and spend the money on early on in our journey, I guess, was going to another area that offered farm tours.
[00:19:59]
Now, of course, these were bigger farms, or medium to large size farms. But we saw chickens, and produce, and lots of different types of production types of businesses. And I took notes, and we came home and put our heads together, and kind of formulated a plan of, okay, what's gonna work for us, and how are we gonna do this?
[00:20:30]
Cuz the ultimate plan for us is, once we retire from our full-time jobs, our income will probably be from the farm. I can retire from the state in seven years. So my wish list is to have a farm store or a general store type setting. Cuz we've got this area of the property, where we can clear off this corner, and put up a little building with a small parking lot.
[00:21:01]
And I would love to be able to sell our pork and chicken, and bring in produce from other farmers. And bring in jams and jellies from other small local businesses, and sell it from from here. And that's my retirement plan, I hope, [LAUGH] cuz seven years will pass before I'm ready.
[00:21:22]
>> Tom Grover: Seems like every day is getting faster and faster. So how would you describe a typical day on the farm?
>> Audra Ellis: Well, again, like I said, we work full time, and we have two kids. So Monday through Friday, Rick works for his cousin, driving a log truck. His family has a logging business, and has for many years.
[00:21:47]
And so he leaves at 1:30 in the morning, typically, anywhere from 1:30 to 4:30, depending on where the logs have to go. And so either way, I do all the morning feeding, so I set my alarm anywhere between 6:00 and 6:30.
>> Audra Ellis: I get up, I go feed the dog, cuz we have a livestock guardian dog that lives with the goats.
[00:22:17]
So he gets fed, the goats get fed and watered, the pigs get fed and watered. Anything else incidental that pops up from overnight, I have to deal with. So for instance, currently, it's kidding season for the goats. So if a mama has gone into labor during the night, and we didn't realize it or didn't know, then I've got to assess any emergency that pops up, or deal with that.
[00:22:46]
Sometimes we have to get up in the middle of the night and address issues. We actually have a camera in the barn. When we had babies being born, we had one mama in one stall, and one mama in another stall. And I could pull it up on my phone and watch, and check on babies, and check and see if somebody had gone into labor.
[00:23:06]
So we use some technology around here, too [LAUGH]. We don't do it completely old school. But that saves me from having to physically walk to the barn at 2 o'clock in the morning to check on somebody when I can pull it up on my phone. And not everybody does that, so we do [LAUGH].
[00:23:22]
So I get up and get everything fed, come back here and get the kids up and out the door to school. Then I'm up and out of the door to work, all in the span of an hour, once I get back in the house from feeding. Then in the evening, my husband does the evening feeding.
[00:23:44]
But if he's coming home from work late, or if something's broken down and he's having to fix it, then there's got to be somebody to pitch in and get the evening feeding done. Because everything's fed twice a day. So yesterday he was working on something, and he said, I need you to feed for me.
[00:24:05]
So I come in from work, change clothes. And go do what we need to do. The kids are older. Drew is 17, and Addison is almost 11. So they're both at the age where they're very helpful. If I can't get it, and Rick can't get it, then Drew has to go feed.
[00:24:25]
Addi likes messing with the babies. So when the baby goats are being born she's handing me towels to help clean off faces. And make sure the little ones are breathing and things like that, but it's truly a family. We don't have any employees. It's just the four of us and my father-in-law who is 74.
[00:24:50]
And he and my husband do all the planting and the ploughing and all that kind of mechanical work, building this or that. It's just us. We don't-
>> Tom Grover: How much interest have the kids shown in farming?
>> Audra Ellis: Drew, none at all. Only because it's a have to for him.
[00:25:15]
He's involved in the marching band at school, that's his track. He wants to major in music in college so that's where his mindset is. But they both understand that this is what we do, and this is part of the responsibilities in this household is we have a farm.
[00:25:36]
If vegetables need to be picked or if we need help making molasses or if we need help feeding the animals. Or this Saturday, Drew was in the barn helping me trim hooves, cuz he was the holder. And I was the trimmer because my husband was doing something else on the farm.
[00:25:54]
So it's a requirement versus a choice. Now the younger one has shown quite a bit of interest in veterinary type of stuff. She's real hands on when I'm having the bumblefoot surgery on a chicken. She's right there wanting to see what I'm doing. And helping with the baby goats when they're being born and asking questions, and she's showing some interest in that.
[00:26:24]
>> Tom Grover: Can you give just a brief description of what bumblefoot is?
>> Audra Ellis: Sure, bumblefoot is a staph infection basically. But on a chicken you first notice their issue because they'll have a limp, and if you start noticing a limp you're automatically checking to see. Okay, did something bite you, attack you, something, what's wrong with your leg.
[00:26:48]
So normally when you flip them over and they've got their three claws or whatever. Typically what bumblefoot looks like is a boil or a cyst or a hard corn, almost. Like a person will get a corn on the bottom of their foot so it actually has a core but it's cuz it's staph.
[00:27:12]
It can be spread to humans. So I have to be really careful when I'm doing it because Clorox wipes and cover everything up and things. But you actually have to cut the core out with either a scalpel, you find scalpels at Tractor Supply, syringes, all that's at Tractor Supply, to try and basically cut the core out.
[00:27:38]
And then Neosporin, bandage it up with that wrap and send them on their way. But then you just keep checking it and then eventually you can take off the wrap, and it's healed up. But if you don't take out that staph infectionm that bumblefoot area, it can eventually spread to them and cause lameness.
[00:28:01]
And cause some permanent damage to the feet and the legs of the chicken. So, our chickens are, we raise the meat chickens for production so those are short around here because those are processed at 12 weeks old. But we have egg chickens who could be here two, three, four years even.
[00:28:21]
So typically, but it's those older egg birds that develop bumblefoot. Because they're here longer and they're out walking. The meat chicken, we don't ever have to worry about that because they're not here long enough. Because they're processed so quickly, but it's normally the egg birds that we have that issue with.
[00:28:43]
But it's one of those things I learned in that class, was what bumblefoot was and how do you get rid of it. And there's actually multiple videos on YouTube which is how I learned. I'll never forget the first time I did the surgery. I had my tablet propped up with the chicken.
[00:29:01]
And I would start, stop, rewind, now what did she say, and back up. And trying to get it right. That's how I learned to do it, because vets don't deal with chickens. You won't find an avian vet anywhere around here. So if you have a chicken issue, you gotta figure out how to deal with it yourself, because vets typically don't mess with chickens.
[00:29:22]
So I learned from other people who have chickens, if you have a chicken with a respiratory issue, and they're struggling to breathe. And they've got bubbles coming out of their nose and they sound like they have rocks in their chest. You know there's a respiratory issue. So that's how I learned what medication at Tractor Supply to go get, how to give them a shot in the breast and all those things.
[00:29:48]
I learned every bit of that from other people with chickens because vets won't come out and see chickens. You can find a horse vet, a goat vet, a pig vet, a dog and a cat vet, but you won't find one that will do chickens. So you gotta figure it out yourself in order to save money but keep the chicken alive.
[00:30:06]
There's all sorts of things that you can do.
>> Tom Grover: So have you seen changes in how you've operated the farm? And if there were changes, what drove them?
>> Audra Ellis: Probably the biggest change that we made was when we switched from vegetable production to animal production.
>> Audra Ellis: A, out of necessity, because there were multiple vegetable producers at the farmer's market.
[00:30:48]
And we didn't want to have to compete with four or five other people when we could concentrate on one thing that we could be good at. So we did that change, but also along with that, we had to downsize. Because we were killing ourselves with the work, and it was hard to do, trying to maintain a huge garden or pasture of vegetables and work full time.
[00:31:23]
When you're having to get up in the morning and pick before daylight, because you had stuff that needed to come out of the ground before it got too hot. Or by the afternoon it was too big or you had tomatoes splitting on the vine, because you weren't getting them off fast enough.
[00:31:41]
And it was just a time management thing. We were picking in the morning, picking vegetables in the evening, plus taking care of animals. And we were running ourselves to death because we don't have paid employees to do it for us. And so we were like, we gotta figure something out here, we're killing ourselves.
[00:32:01]
So that switch kind of all happened at the same time. Where we moved away from the produce and downsized, tremendously downsized the produce. And concentrated more on the meat and the pork. Or the pork and the chicken. Just because we just couldn't do it. Physically, we were exhausted.
[00:32:26]
And largely because we basically worked full-time. So maybe one day when one of us retires, we can move more towards that and add more to that and start that back again. But, not right now with both of us working full time, there's just not an option. We wouldn't mind having our little garden with my father in law.
[00:32:51]
And reap the benefits of that, but not for public sale. It's just too hard.
>> Tom Grover: Any of the other farmers that you know, have you seen simillar changes with them as well? Are they scaling back?
>> Audra Ellis: Most of the farmers I know, I met several that do come like commercial farming, like Mitcham farms in the Western end of the county.
[00:33:21]
They have the contract with Dole and they raise the raspberries. But they concentrate on blackberries. And then the housers have chicken houses. And there is chicken houses, you've got the Tyson, andyou got the other competing, we have those commercial chicken houses. And a lot of those folks farmed other things.
[00:33:46]
But, big-box stores and things like that and they have to choose to concentrate on, do a contract with Tyson and raise chickens. Or do a contract with Dole and raise blackberries, because whatever else it was that they were doing at the time wasn't profitable, because small farms are dying out.
[00:34:12]
And selling off, and farms are being sold to build neighborhoods. And you see that all over the place, and it's happened here, where families go out of business because they're not making any money. So I don't foresee us ever going commercial big scale like that. I think my mentality is based on what I see, people, I feel like now care more about what they're eating.
[00:34:49]
And they care more about what goes into their food. And you see more people asking questions at the farmer's market about, how do you raise your pigs and what do they eat? And where do they live? And that's why we don't mind doing farm tours. I want you to come see where they sleep.
[00:35:08]
Cuz if you look at somebody who raises commercial pork like Smithfield or some of those other ones. And you do research and you look at the facilities and the conditions that those pigs live in versus at my house and how I know my pigs are treated and what they eat and that kind of thing.
[00:35:31]
I would much rather eat my pork than what I've seen in my research than eating that pork. Cuz you can ask me questions, but I can't ask that farmer that wrote, I can't ask them anything. Because I don't know them and they're not local, you know what I mean?
[00:35:47]
So I think that buying local and supporting small local farms, I think that mentality is positive in this area. So I see people going and seeking out farmers markets and trying to support the local folks here in Lincoln County. And are on the outskirts, cuz our products are in Lincoln, Cleveland, and county farm.
[00:36:15]
So I see people wanting to work together and come together and support local farms and sell their products and things like that. So I don't see us going on the grand scale, huge like that. I like it to be small and manageable. Maybe one day we can hire some people when we retire, but I don't see that happening, because we're just not big enough to have staff, but I like it that way.
[00:36:46]
[LAUGH]
>> Tom Grover: Do you think there's a disconnect between the public and their understanding of where the food comes from?
>> Audra Ellis: I think there used to be. I think it's getting better, at least in my experience. Cuz I know when we first started out, selling at the Farmer's Market, you would see people who would question, why's this so expensive?
[00:37:18]
I can go to the grocery store and get pork chops for nine on a pound or whatever. But again, I go back to how was that pork raised? What did it live in? What did they eat? Depending on what breed of pork you raise, like we raise a heritage breed.
[00:37:40]
Berkshire, which if you do research, Berkshires are leaner meat pig. And it's more, if you watch Gordon Ramsay on Food Network or any of those food shows, Gordon Ramsay raises Berkshires. Because that's his choice of pork and he's a world renowned chef. So you have to research the breed, you have to research the quality in the meat, the taste of the meat, and whether a more fatty breed or a more lean meat breed.
[00:38:17]
There's always things that kinda go into it. But I think people are more accepting of it now. And mainly because with media sharing information about videos about under cover operations when they go into these facilities. And they see how they butcher animals and how the animals are kept in confinement and things like that.
[00:38:52]
I think that's kind of opened people's minds up about using chemicals and different things like that. I mean, we're not certified organic, but we practice as organically as possible because the certification process is very expensive to be certified organic. We only use medications with our animals as a last resort.
[00:39:17]
If we can't get them healthy any other way, then we will call the vet for consultation from them. What do we need to do to protect, to keep this animal alive? If we can't fix it ourselves, then that's the last resort.
>> Audra Ellis: But I think that people are more open to supporting local businesses, not just farmers, but just local businesses in general.
[00:39:47]
Because you've got so much competition with big-box stores. The Walmarts and the Targets and all those things that sell groceries, and we're competing with them just like the next person. But I think people are more understanding about Wanting to help,
>> Audra Ellis: Local farmers and small business people in general.
[00:40:17]
More so now than it used to be when we first started out. I think people's minds have opened up a little bit more.
>> Tom Grover: So how did you get started in with the farmer's markets?
>> Audra Ellis: I mean I knew we had a farmer's market because I would go and I was a purchaser for a long time, and my parents were and my aunt goes to the farmer's market.
[00:40:44]
So when we started doing the farm, I immediately knew that was one way we had to utilize to market our product was to get out there and sell it. Not just try to sell it from the farm but actually bring it out to other people. I asked people, okay, if I wanna be a vendor at farmer;s market, who do I talk to, and went that way.
[00:41:09]
So we've expanded this year and we started selling also at the Denver farmer's market to try to capture that end of the county. Which is more towards Lake Norman and that, which is a whole different demographic, really, from this end of the town. Again, because we work full time, we only do markets on Saturdays.
[00:41:34]
So we're having to, several times in a month, we're at the Lincolnton market. And then once a month we go to the Denver market, so that we can still hit that area. But it was just asking questions.
>> Tom Grover: What's the response been for you with the customers?
>> Audra Ellis: Really good, a lot of people have told us they come to us for our sausage, our breakfast sausage, our Italian sausage, and our pork chops, which are primarily our biggest sellers, are those three things.
[00:42:13]
And then of course in the fall, we sell out of molasses every single time. And typically, like last year, because we had those monsoon rains and winds come right around the time it was time to process the sorghum, we lost a lot. We probably lost, gosh, a ton of cane just because the wind blew it down and we couldn't save it.
[00:42:42]
And we had a wait list for molasses and we just had to prioritize. Whoever asked us for molasses first, they were at the top of the list and we literally had a list. And as we would make the molasses and jar it up, I would go down the list and mark off.
[00:43:00]
And there were people who didn't get any, because we ran out. Because we couldn't salvage what was blown over by the wind. But the fact that people want our product enough to have a waiting list, [LAUGH] that's a lot to be said. And it only comes around once a year.
[00:43:20]
So normally when we plant the sorghum, I put on our Facebook page and everything, here's the start of it. Make sure you watch and pay attention, and people will know, okay, when are you cooking? As soon as they know that it's almost time to harvest the sorghum, then they'll message me on Facebook, I need four quarts of molasses or I need this.
[00:43:45]
Cuz people will buy Christmas presents, buy a case at a time, and give it away, because you can't find it around here. It's one of those things that, again like I said, not a lot of people make it anymore. We're the last one in this county that still does it.
[00:44:04]
So that, the fact that I can get somebody from Denver, and we don't live there, never gone to school there, it's 30, 45 minutes, the other side of the county. They'll seek us out and say somebody told me about your pork chops, I want to get a pack of pork chops.
[00:44:23]
So word of mouth and advertising, we utilize social media whereas a lot of old time farmers, they don't do that. But if you're gonna reach out to the next generation and get word out about what you're doing, you have to utilize social media because that's how people communicate now.
[00:44:44]
So we have a website and we have a Facebook page, we have an Instagram. I'm an open book, and people can ask me questions about anything. If people say, can we come out and see the baby goats, sure, we work it around our schedule. But that's the only way for me, I feel like, to get your name out there and get people to try your product, is because you have to be open to answering questions and talking to people.
[00:45:22]
That's why Rick, he tells me I'm the marketing person, my husband. Because he's the hands in the dirt, the mechanic, the get on the tractor. That's his me time is when he's on the tractor and he plugs his head up with his ear phones and listens to his music while he's plowing.
[00:45:42]
Whereas I'm the people person, I'm the one that sells at the market, I'm the one who does the advertising on Facebook. But that's just our personalities, I'm the talker, he's not, he'll talk to anybody but he's just more down to earth about it than I am, so.
>> Tom Grover: So, earlier you mentioned a lot of the smaller farms going out of business and selling off for housing.
[00:46:15]
>> Audra Ellis: Yes, my husband calls them house farms.
>> Tom Grover: House farms? Okay, that is the first time I've heard that.
>> Audra Ellis: You sell farm property and all of a sudden there's a neighborhood, they are growing houses out there. [LAUGH]
>> Tom Grover: How much has that impacted your operations?
>> Audra Ellis: Not any I don't think, but that's just because we're small scale.
[00:46:38]
It doesn't impact us at all.
>> Tom Grover: Are there any other farmers nearby that this has happened?
>> Audra Ellis: Not on this end, I mean there are some on the western end of the county. I mean, primarily what we've seen it with is family dairy farms. I have a friend, Janet Reeves-Morgan, her family had Reeves Brothers Dairy for many many, many, many years.
[00:47:08]
And then they had to close up shop. My family had a dairy farm, which was Water's Dairy off of Star Town Road in the central area of the town. And my uncle, they had to close that dairy farm, so I've primarily seen it with dairy industry, more so than crop production or beef production kinda thing.
[00:47:38]
It's more been the dairy industry, at least in this county, there's a lot of dairy farms have closed down. There's still one or two that I know of on the western end of the county, but I don't of any other than them.
>> Tom Grover: What do you think is the reason behind the dairy farms being so susceptible to that?
[00:47:53]
>> Audra Ellis: I don't know per se with each individual family what happened and why they had to shut down. But if I had to venture a guess, small time berries can't compete with the big commercial operations. Excuse me, I saw an article. I wanna say it was within the last week or two that compared milk prices.
[00:48:35]
And it was showing the price for Great Value Walmart milk versus a different brand of milk that was from a local small town dairy, and the price difference between the two. And because Walmart can sell their milk for whatever it is, 2, 2.50 a jug? And versus the small dairy that's organic or whatever different advertisement things on it.
[00:49:08]
But anyway, that jug of milk is 5 or $6. They can't sustain themselves, unless you have somebody who's specifically marketing and wants that certain type of milk versus the mass produced milk. Because they all come from farms, they all come from dairy cows. But there is a vast difference between the two types of farms that are producing milk and while one can be produced cheaper.
[00:49:43]
Now on the flip side of that, the farmers that are producing the Walmart milk, they are not getting the money that they should be getting. Because all the money gets filtered out on higher up the food chain. And why they are able to offer the milk at $2 a gallon, but that farmer that helped produce the milk, they're not getting their fair share the cut either, I don't think.
[00:50:11]
But I have a friend who owns a diary in Cleveland County, Guernsey Girl Creamery. And she's a small diary I think she has less than 15 cows. And she sells milk from the farm. And she makes cheeses and she's an award winning cheesemaker in North Carolina. But she's talked about how people will come to the farm [COUGH] and want to buy her milk but question well, why is this 5 or $6 a jug versus I can go to Walmart and get it for 2?
[00:50:50]
So she's had those same questions and had those same concerns and then things like that. And she has to explain herself why her milk is priced at what it is, because they work their butts off over there. And in order for them to make any money to make a living and they farm full time, they don't have full time jobs.
[00:51:15]
This is their job. So they have to have the money to feed the cows and she sells her cheese to restaurants and sells it from the farm and she's opened up a farm store recently. And so she has the community that comes to her for her product to get her butter and her cheeses and her milk.
[00:51:37]
But they work their tails off and that's why it costs $6 to get her pimento cheese versus going to the store and getting pimento cheese for $2. There's a reason behind it [LAUGH] but some people don't get that, and they just see the price tag. Not what went into to the price tag.
[00:52:01]
So that's that that's still an ongoing struggle, not just with us. Even with, I've seen people come to the farmers market and they want fresh green beans, but they want to pay BiLo prices for it. They want to pay Walmart prices for it. They don't want to pay what we are asking for it.
[00:52:23]
And they question, some people will question and they'll turn around and get mad and leave. And we've all experienced that, but some of it's just lack of education. Some of it is, they're set in that commercial commodity price. To me, you get what you pay for. I would much rather pay $2 a pound for fresh green beans.
[00:52:57]
That I know the person who grew it, and I knew what they did to it, whether they sprayed it or didn't spray it, and picked the bugs off of it. And I talk to them every day, I'd much rather pay $2 a pound for their fresh green beans than to go to BiLo and pay $0.99 a pound for what they say is fresh green beans.
[00:53:17]
I don't when that was picked, cuz I guarantee you, the farmer's market, they pick those green beans within the day or two before market. Or that morning sometimes, they're out there picking tomatoes and whatever. You can't beat, that's fresh as fresh can be, straight off the vine. But if you get it in the grocery store, how long has it been in that package?
[00:53:39]
How long's it been sitting there in the refrigerator at the grocery store? I'd much rather pay more just for the taste alone. But some people don't get that. [LAUGH] They'll argue with you about it. And some of them you can't convince them. There's some people they're too set in their ways and you can't convince them of why one is better than the other.
[00:54:05]
And at some point you just stop convincing them. I can't make you buy my product. I just have to keep the people happy who want to buy the product.
>> Tom Grover: Was that a hard lesson to learn?
>> Audra Ellis: Mm-hm, and I originally it would be hard. You would have people walk away from your table mad because you're asking to pay 7.99 a pound for a pork chops.
[00:54:36]
And they would say, well I can get that at this price at BiLo. And you try to rationalize with them about why your price is what it is. And then originally when that would happen and they would walk away from your table and not buy anything and they'd get mad and leave the whole market.
[00:54:54]
And you would feel bad and it will hurt your feelings, but eventually you just kinda have, you can't please everybody. But I know that I have people who are upset when I sell out of pork chops and I don't have any left, and that's the people that I work for.
[00:55:14]
That's the people that I wanna please and they'll, and I know that they'll keep coming back. But the person who gets mad about it, they don't understand the concept of local farms and farmers markets anyway, if they get mad about the prices that any of us at the market has.
[00:55:34]
They don't understand the concept of the farmer's market or buying from micro farmers cuz they get mad about the prices that we offer. They've missed the whole point in my opinion.
>> Tom Grover: Do you belong to any kind of organizations or associations?
>> Audra Ellis: We are members of the American Dairy Gate Association.
[00:56:01]
That's the only, I would think, paid membership thing that we do.
>> Audra Ellis: That, I give him a call, that's only thing I can think of that we pay to be a part of. We like our home loan is through ag first or, which is a branch off a Carolina firm that so, we get, I guess, technically, we're members of that, by virtue of that's where our mortgages through, because we have a farm mortgage.
[00:56:35]
So we get, benefits from that, and then, access to resources that way.
>> Tom Grover: How would you describe the local farming community? Earlier, said it was, a lot of people that were very helpful.
>> Audra Ellis: My experience on the front end was very nervous, because I didn't know how we would be received as as news farmers coming in.
[00:57:02]
If you have somebody who we've been doing this for years, and years, and I thought I don't want to step on anybody's toes. I don't want us to show up and plop our goods out on the table, and be competing for their money. And it was mixed, honestly, at the beginning.
[00:57:24]
There were farmers who embraced us, and we're glad that we were there as a new vendor to bring fresh had people in, I think, there were other farmers at the market who looked to us as we're taking money from them. We're taking away their customers, because now, they're gonna tell him what you have what I have kinda thing, and that, again, played into our decision to switch from produce to meat.
[00:57:57]
Because it was a competition, when you've got four different farmers who have the same type of tomato. You're all competing for somebody to come and pick your tomato versus their tomato. So, [COUGH], we would see price competitions, and people getting angry, because they're similar to my 50 cents to per pound line, and that's why I was coming to their table, and people could get pretty nasty, pretty slippery, and on the outside looking in, because I was not one of these longtime farmers market people that have been coming for years, I was the new guy, but I watch people.
[00:58:42]
And I don't like conflict, so I'm like, okay. How do we avoid getting into this tit-for-tat stuff that I was seeing'? And so, that played into our decision as a way out to switch, primarily, into the main. But this past year, or two years ago, there was another port vendor that started coming to the farmer's market, and I made a point.
[00:59:10]
I remember how it was when we were doing produce. Some people were not happy that were new people there. Some people loved us and accepted us, but there were other people that were not happy that we were a new produce standard. So knowing how that fit, I made a point to introduce myself to that Newport vendor, and welcome them to the market.
[00:59:39]
And not make it about an us versus them kind of thing, cuz I don't like conflict. And I feel like there's a place for everybody.
>> Tom Grover: How did they take your welcome?
>> Audra Ellis: I felt like it was okay. I mean, I never had an issue with them, or any that was brought to my attention, I'll say that.
[01:00:09]
But, I think, relationships are what you make of it. And I can say that 95% of the time, our relationships with other farmers have been 100% positive, because we can cut, we can call people and ask for help, or guidance, or have you ever seen this before, have you ever dealt with that before?
[01:00:37]
And people will help us that have been doing this a lot longer than we have in some regards and spaces, and now, because, we've been in it for a little while. New people that are coming in Mohandas are calling us. And saying, can you help me with this or that?
[01:00:57]
Or I'd like to raise a couple pigs for my family for me, not even really starting a farm. They just wanna raise some for personal use, but they'll call us, and say, can you help me with? Have you ever dealt with that? That kind of thing. That makes me feel good that whatever it is that we've done, has let people know that we're open to questions, and people can come to us for help.
[01:01:23]
We don't mind help. We'll help anybody. It's just a community. On Facebook, this week, there was somebody local. I know their child goes to school with my child, and they're in the process of moving, and they need hay for their horses for the trip to move, because they're having to move, and we don't even have horses, but they were like, I can't find anybody that has small bales of hay, the square bales versus the big giant things.
[01:01:56]
And so, I was like, well, we've got plenty of hay, how much do you need? Five or six bales, how much do you want for it? Nothing, come get it. I mean, you need it, I don't. I don't need three bucks of hay, I mean, it's okay. And so, it's just, I feel like opening yourself up and offering yourself up to help others, you get your rewards at some point later on.
[01:02:23]
Because what if I need something sometime, and I need to reach out, and ask for something? So I feel like developing those relationships in the community are what's important. If somebody says, hey, can you come help me trim mine? Go, go, whoops, sure. I'll come help you. We barter here.
[01:02:44]
There's a lady up the road, she has ducks out the ying yang, she is overrun with duck eggs. She's like, can you use these duck eggs. Sure, I bowl, I'm in my aunt's pot and the pigs eat them. I don't like duck. I don't like their texture, but people like.
[01:03:02]
So we barter. She'll give me a dozen duck eggs, and I give her a couple of packs. Brought worse, or a couple packs of sausages, it all works on the wash, and everybody gets what they need out of the mix.
>> Tom Grover: It doesn't, that's all I'm [INAUDABLE].
>> Audra Ellis: It is.
[01:03:20]
>> Tom Grover: [LAUGH]
>> Audra Ellis: She has it in, and she calls me the other day, she was like, I know, I just brought you some, but we're stocked up again, do you need these? Cuz she takes them to work, and things like that, [COUGH], but I blow them and give them to the pigs, cuz the pigs are like [SOUND].
[01:03:40]
[LAUGH] They love the [INAUDIBLE].
>> Tom Grover: Okay, is there an aspect about farming that, think, just people don't quite understand, or I think they should know.
>> Audra Ellis: I think to some people.
>> Audra Ellis: People still think, on some levels that farmers are stupid. Uneducated.
>> Audra Ellis: Things along that line, like why would you choose to be a farmer?
[01:04:15]
Why didn't you go to school to be a doctor? Or why would you wanna do that? There's still some connotation, I think, that farming is not a reputable means of making a living or, and I've seen people, this is gonna put trouble or not. But I am seeing people talk to vendors at the farmers market like they're stupid.
[01:04:47]
Just how people, like they're less saying, I guess. Again, it may come back to when people are fussing about the price or something, fussing about something that the vendor is offering. And how they speak to them as if they're less to them because they're a farmer. That bothers me a lot.
[01:05:11]
Because when I go to the farmer's market to sell my stuff, I look very similar to what I look like now. I have on a T-shirt and blue jeans, most of the time I'll have on my T-shirt, I'll have some pigs on it, I have some chickens on it, sometimes have a ball cap on.
[01:05:35]
A lot of people to look at me, wouldn't know that I'm a Probation Officer or wouldn't know that I have a Masters degree in Counselling because they assume something about me based on what they see at face value. And so that piece of it still bothers me, that there's a misconception, and I tell people.
[01:05:57]
There's a farmer on the West Union County who is as country as they come. And he has a high school education but has farmed all his life. He did work full time in another trade but he still farm in that time. And then when he retired from his work, then he started farming full time.
[01:06:27]
And he is smart as a whip. And my husband has called on him a couple different times to ask questions and things about stuff. But I've seen people talking to him horribly because they assume that he's just a damn farmer. And that piece ticks me off, and I think there's still some education to be had about farmers and you've got to be real smart and know how to fix a tractor.
[01:06:59]
Because I can tell you I can't fix a tractor. I wouldn't know where to begin if something broke down and it wouldn't move me anymore. Same thing with a car, that's just not my forté. But I mean, I've seen people put stuff together like MacGyver, tweak this, and pop that, put this here, and get it to work.
[01:07:21]
I wouldn't have been able to think like that. But it takes smarts to do that. I mean, that takes something that a doctor might not can do, you know what I mean? [LAUGH] But that's really the only thing I can think of in that regard. It's just there's still some misconception about farmers, and assumptions about the kind of people who farm.
[01:07:55]
>> Tom Grover: What are your thoughts on the younger generation in farming. Do you think there is a lack of interest?
>> Audra Ellis: Yep, in the grand scheme, yes. And I think that also plays into why family farms go out of business, is because the younger generation does not want to continue it or they have no interest in it.
[01:08:18]
And that's not to say that that's a bad thing. That's essentially what happened, originally, to the original Ellis Farm. There where nine siblings and the reason they ceased doing vegetable production or [INAUDIBLE] farming, was several went off to the military. Several had no interest in farming, and they went off to do their own thing.
[01:08:39]
And only one or two stayed back to do the farm, and then it just became too much and they stopped and went on to something else. So that's a generational thing that has always been a factor, I think. And that's why when my husband came to me and said, I want to start back the family farm, I didn't even know he had a family farm.
[01:09:02]
I had no clue that they used to farm this property. I just thought they just had a bunch of land. And I had no clue what went on at that time but I do think there is a lesser draw for family farms.
>> Audra Ellis: But obviously, there must still be something going on because North Carolina State still has a pretty huge agriculture degree program.
[01:09:36]
We used to have people that go to NC State to vet school or to get into the agriculture stuff, so there's obviously still some draw. But I think, in the grand scheme of things, there's a lot less of the younger generation that wants to continue this. I mean, it's a lot of hard work and it's not a way to get rich.
[01:10:09]
And I think, in todays times and the entitlement generation, that's part of it. It's not a glamorous job, your not gonna get famous over it. And I think it takes a special kind of kid to want to, yeah, I wanna take over my family farm. But those are few and far between.
[01:10:37]
>> Tom Grover: Where do you see this farm in the future?
>> Audra Ellis: Well, like I said, my long range plan, because I can retire from the state, which is who I'm employed by, in a very short amount of time. My goal is to open up like a farm stand, farm store type of setting on the property.
[01:11:08]
Because there is not one on this out of town and hopefully continue educating and drawing folks into local raised goods, and needs, and produce, and things like that. And work with other local farmers to stock the store and use their goods and bring it in, bring it in that way.
[01:11:34]
Not on a grand scale at first but start out small.
>> Audra Ellis: If I could have a wish list, I would have a full on general store type, taking all gas station and turn it into a general store kind of thing. But that's way more, I can retire but who knows when my husband will be able to, or if he'd even want to, or even just I work part time with his cousin that still several years down the road but short term plan in the next 10 years we'll have a farm so I'm here because I'll be I'll be retired and I want to do that more full time and still maybe have a little part time job somewhere else, because I'll have another kid in college at that point.
[01:12:31]
[INAUDIBLE] But we'll see where that goes. I fully see that we'll still be doing some type of farming, whether it's produce or whether we're still doing pork, who knows? But I see it still occurring.
>> Tom Grover: So are there any questions that you feel I should ask or if there are any final thoughts that you may have in general about farming?
[01:13:06]
>> Audra Ellis: I just think it's important for people to get out there to the local farmers' markets. Get out there to the local produce stands [COUGH] and support local farms. Do some research, find out why a farm raised egg is more healthier for you than a commercial egg that you buy in a grocery store.
[01:13:34]
Why is it more healthy to eat from a free-range chicken, versus one that's in a commercial setting? Just look at that kind of stuff. Get out and get to know the folks that are providing their tomatoes and their squash or whatever [COUGH] hardworking people. You should tell some good stories.
[01:14:03]
>> Audra Ellis: They're just all around good folks that will give you the shirt off your back, but I think it's important to keep money local to boost local economy and give back to local businesses versus spending money in these big box stores because you don't see the benefit of it later on.
[01:14:26]
It's true when you see them, there's a Facebook post, I think it's a sign that sits outside of a local restaurant. And it says when you buy goods from this local business partner, you're paying for their kid to take dance lessons, or you're paying for their kid to go to summer camp.
[01:14:49]
Or if you're spending money at Walmart, you don't know the end result of where your money's being spent or what's being done with your money. But if you spend it locally with local businesses, local farms, local craftsmen, because there's other things at the farmers' market besides farm goods, there's people who make soaps and lotions and there's people who do woodworking and crafts and pottery.
[01:15:19]
So, you're supporting their families by coming and buying from them versus going to Walmart [INAUDIBLE] or wherever. You actually can see face to face, where your money goes. And I think that's important just to support local farms and local craftspeople in general, versus if you have a mother's day gift, go get some nice handmade lotion or soap from somebody at the farmer's market.
[01:15:51]
Don't go,you know go buy a hanging basket that a farmer grew. Both my hanging baskets came from the farmer's market. My ferns came from the farmer's market. I'd rather support those people than go in and get me some trinket that's gonna sit in my mama's drawer for however many years.
Yeah, I'd much rather go buy her a hanging basket that she can enjoy, things like that, so.
>> Tom Grover: Well, thank you very much for this interview, I appreciate it.
>> Audra Ellis: You're welcome.
>> Tom Grover: Okay.
>> Audra Ellis: Glad you could come.
Proffitt Family Cattle - Shelley Proffitt Eagan
Shelley Proffitt Eagan is a 46 year-old white female, and has been an owner and operator of Proffitt Family Cattle Company since 2008, that she owns with her father. Her duties include rotating the cattle in the pastures, baling hay, weighing, tagging and keeping records of the herd. She also repairs and moves fences, sells the products and maintains the pastures. She graduated from a Charlotte high school and prior to working on her father’s farm, she lived in Colorado with her husband and two children.
In this interview Shelley Proffitt Eagan discusses her work as an owner/operator of a cattle company for the last 10 years in Kings Mountain, North Carolina. Topics include how the farm began, methods used to raise cattle for slaughter, the process to become USDA certified organic, and changes they have made to the farm over the years.
She recounts their rotational grazing process as well as describes the types of grasses the cattle eat. Shelley explains why it is important for the health of the cattle and the grass to rotate the herd. She recounts a memory from a few years ago when a farmer lost a cow because she ate toxic plants in his pasture, and discusses grass management.
Shelley tells of sexism from other farmers that she encountered when she began cattle farming.
| Time | Description |
| 0:00:10 | Introduction |
| 0:00:34 | Shelley Proffitt and her parents |
| 0:00:39 | The farm's beginning |
| 0:01:42 | How Shelley came to Kings Mountain to be a farmer |
| 0:02:48 | Starting the grass-fed beef business and becoming the first in NC/SC to be certified organic |
| 0:03:34 | The farm's acreage and Shelley and Steve's decision to downsize |
| 0:06:02 | Herd size |
| 0:06:36 | Shelley describes a day on the farm |
| 0:08:49 | The struggle with caring for geriatric horses |
| 0:09:26 | Current issues with a cow and her calf |
| 0:11:14 | Juggling other farm chores while caring for a calf |
| 0:12:47 | Recent meat shipment from the slaughterhouse and the usual process |
| 0:14:24 | Pasture rotation and health |
| 0:16:18 | Importance of rotational grazing for the health of the grass |
| 0:18:12 | Nutritional needs of the mama herd |
| 0:18:32 | Importance of rotational grazing for the health of the herd |
| 0:21:16 | Cow boredom when not rotated enough |
| 0:23:05 | Necessary to rotate the herd even with plenty of grass |
| 0:23:54 | Story about the cows getting excited about moving to a new pasture |
| 0:24:52 | Bulls, safety, and breeding |
| 0:30:30 | Entrance of Shelley's father Steve, and introductions |
| 0:31:13 | Further explanations of how heifers and bulls are separated |
| 0:32:20 | Steve explains how bulls are easier to manage without calving seasons |
| 0:32:56 | Sharing bulls with another farmer, and the importance of a bull's genetics on breeding |
| 0:34:47 | Illness from plants, weed management |
| 0:38:50 | Effects of past winter's excessive rain fall on pasture soil |
| 0:43:42 | Starting off in early 2000s prior to grass-fed and organic certification; changes in how they farmed |
| 0:47:22 | Cows in feed lot living a miserable existence; changing farm model for humane livestock treatment |
| 0:49:41 | Health benefits of grass-fed, organic beef |
| 0:50:19 | "the feedlot is the great equalizer," Feeding cattle grain changes the flavor profile of the meat |
| 0:50:53 | Differences in raising grass-fed vs feedlot beef |
| 0:52:06 | Labor on the farm |
| 0:54:00 | The life cycle of cattle, from calf to slaughterhouse |
| 0:56:16 | Slaughter and certified organic practices |
| 1:00:01 | Deciding which animals to slaughter and which to keep |
| 1:00:09 | Strict requirements on certified organic beef |
| 1:01:06 | How to decide which heifers to keep and which to slaughter |
| 1:02:51 | Advice from a conference: get a meat handler's license, a meat processor and go to farmer's markets |
| 1:05:14 | Selling meat at a farmers marker |
| 1:07:38 | General farming misconceptions and agricultural ignorance |
| 1:16:25 | Unique experiences being a woman farmer; sexism from older male farmers |
| 1:19:43 | Future of the farm |
[00:00:10]
>> Luanne Hoverman: This is Luanne Hoverman, a graduate student at the University of North Carolina Charlotte. And today is April 26, 2019. I'm interviewing Shelley Crawford Egan for the Queens Garden, oral histories of the Piedmont food shed. So give you a chance to introduce yourself. Tell us about your background, history of the farm, that sort of thing.
[00:00:34]
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: Well, I'm the middle child. Parents even in profits. And about 20 years ago, my dad bought this land out here. Started off with about 100 acres. And he had been interested in cows as a young man because he grew up in the era when cowboys were the heroes of TV.
[00:00:58]
And so he always wanted to be a cowboy as a little kid. He was a baby boomer so he's about 75 now, 76. And so he was finally able to retire and move out into the country, buy land, build a house and a farm and a young man came up and knocked on the door of the house and said hi my name is Paul or whatever.
[00:01:22]
I forgot his name now but he said I'd like to lease your land and put cows on it and dad said, well were gonna do business together. I'll do it with you, can you teach me what you know about cows? Cuz he didn't know anything about cows. At the time, he just had horses.
[00:01:36]
And that was kind of the beginning of dad's learning about livestock and how to handle cows. I moved here about ten years ago with my family from Colorado. [COUGH] And my husband and I who had been living in the burbs out there. And one day my kids were arguing who was going to climb the one damn tree in the yard.
[00:02:00]
And I told my husband, I said it’s a sad state of affairs when the children are arguing over who's gonna get to climb the tree. So we gotta get out of here, I can’t take it anymore. And at that time, I had been coming back here over the summer for weeks at a time staying at the farm with my parents and the summer of 2008, I was here for about two weeks.
[00:02:23]
I spent the entire time helping dad milk cows and do something [UKNOWN] on fun. And I went back and told my husband, Mike we need to move, dad needs help, you know how to handle animals and livestock. I'd like to get out of Colorado and be back in the south.
[00:02:40]
And land is cheaper, everybody in the south's really friendly, you'll love it. [LAUGH] So we moved back here that winter. And then sort of established private family farms at the time that winter and started slaughtering grass-fed beef, selling at the farmers market May of 2009 and it really just took off.
[00:03:05]
It is a huge customer base, a massive demand for not just grass-fed beef but really good grass-fed beef. We had farm certified in fall of 2009, USDA certified organic. We were the first certified organic beef operation in North Carolina and South Carolina at that time.
>> Luanne Hoverman: That's impressive.
[00:03:27]
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: Thanks, and we've been doing it ever since.
>> Luanne Hoverman: How many acres do you have?
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: We recently downsized and we're down to around 350 now. We had just this winter, this past fall and winter sold an additional 360 acre farm in Blacksburg, South Carolina, and that’s where we had our small farm there, but I was getting too old to mess with it.
[00:03:55]
I'm really not that old in the grand scheme of things. But it's a really demanding job physically, and it's a long drive down there, longer seeming and we were spread out. For the last ten years, we worked on four properties. It just takes a lot of grass to finish an animal, a cow and get them up to a 1,000 pounds or more on nothing but grass growing out of the ground, it takes a large amount of grass.
[00:04:20]
You can't strain the grass pasture so the cows can't spend a lot of time on it. So they need to be moving every couple days or as much as you can, that means that you have to physically be on all these farms. And not me just driving out there and counting cows and leaving, but maintaining the fence, checking the fence, calling cows, moving cows, be it horseback, foot, four-wheeler, whatever.
[00:04:45]
And spreading that across four properties, where there's miles and miles of fence all combined, not people is a pretty physically daunting project. And I just got really tired the last summer. And I turned to dad, I had hauled cows every day for two weeks with minimal help. And I said, I am going to kill somebody if we don`t, we've got to downsize this space.
[00:05:13]
It just kind of got out of hand. Like one day we had 35 or 40 mama cows and then the next day, a couple years down the road, there's 95. I mean, it just got big and a lot of work. That's great. So now, we're trying to raise as much meat as I can within the confines of this much grass and one other property about two miles down the road.
[00:05:41]
So between those two properties, it's probably a little more than 350, 375, something like that. So two properties and as many cows as we can have born and raised up on nothing but grass within that amount of grass. That's what we're gonna do, that's the new plan.
>> Luanne Hoverman: How big is your herd right now?
[00:06:02]
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: Right now we have, I got about 15 yearlings, maybe a couple more, 17 yearlings and then I got about 20 momma cows and then I got about 20 finishers. The mom cows, about half of them have a calf at their side. And before the next couple months, they should all have a calf at their side.
[00:06:22]
So 80 in total.
>> Luanne Hoverman: Okay.
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: So a pretty manageable number right now.
>> Luanne Hoverman: What's a typical day on the farm?
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: Well how do I say it that, wow you must get it so early and like my cow's eating grass that's growing out of the ground. And they're ain't nobody waiting for me to come around with a bucket of anything and that's about how I am.
[00:06:49]
I'm not into eating animals that are raised up on corn and soy. And so my animals getting on that and the only time I have to get up really early is when I have to go to the farmer's market. Those days are always long so they get down the barn and take care of the horses and get them dressed for the day.
[00:07:09]
And that would be, it depends on the time of year in the summer we've gotta get moving a little bit earlier if we wanna get something done because it's hot. You cannot really mess with livestock in the heat of the day and summer period, they just will not come out of the shade.
[00:07:25]
So now every couple of Sundays we saw in way at a finishing herd and we got a, from wherever they are on the property that got to be gotten up, walked through pastures. They are with cane or cow alarm or with them on horseback or set up temporary posts to make fences and get them up to the round pen.
[00:07:45]
Out about a barn where the scales are and we'll bring them in and around and sort out the one way along. Then look at the weights, look at the birthdays to see how old each one is and decide [COUGH] who's going to slaughter the next day. We always have to do that the day before we go through the processor.
[00:08:04]
So that takes a couple people and a couple hours. First I usually schedule to do that in the evening hours the day before slaughter. So that might be 7 o'clock in the summer whenever the sun has gotten so it's not so hot because I won't be able to get them to come around in the middle of the day.
[00:08:24]
If somebody can't do in the evening, we'll do it early in the morning, so maybe we'll get started at 7:00, 7:30, I try not to do that to my hired help on the weekend. On a Sunday but we always have to do that on a Sunday. But as far as what we do every single day, we go down to the barn, we bring horses in, we give them what they need, we let them move.
[00:08:49]
Our particular horses we've got, it's just like a geriatric center down there for God sakes, I mean they're all old and still rideable. But they are just generally useless and consumers, they give nothing back to the farm whatsoever. I wouldn't mind getting rid of them just because half the time I'm messing with them, I'm thinking about all the other things I really need to be doing.
[00:09:15]
Like putting up a fence or checking a fence or opening gates and moving cows. So after we get them squared away then we go meet the needs of the cows, like today, we've got a calf down there, something's wrong with the mamas udders. Her teats are blown out and not shaped in the right way, she's got like one of four teats, [COUGH] even something the calf could latch onto and she's about not quite a week old, she's a day shy, this calf.
[00:09:50]
And over the last several days that has been going on there, and I've given her a bottle in the evening, and she's been sucking a little bit better each day. But that sometimes is hard to do, because then you have to catch the calf, they don't generally see a bottle and think, gee this is something I wanna put in my mouth.
[00:10:10]
And you gotta kind of like wrestle them to the ground and shove a bottle in their mouth and then hold it there and make them open their mouth. You've gotta, it's not a natural thing that they do until they get that milk in and realize that this is a good thing.
[00:10:25]
So, anyway, whenever we were arriving this morning, looked over in the pasture and the calf's laying there and the herd's nowhere around. He's not with the herd, she's by herself, sun's out, it's hot, that's a sign that something's not right. So I came up to the house and got a bottle, drove back down there with my daughter's boyfriend who's a young, strong thing.
[00:10:50]
So [INAUDIBLE] snatched this calf and put this bottle in her mouth. So we did that, didn't take but about 15 minutes, mama saw us messing with the calf and comes over and she was nice, though. She didn't try to kill us or attack us or anything so that went smooth and that's not always the case sometimes they really are trying to kill you if they see you messing with their calf.
[00:11:14]
And then we went and put the horses back up, we put the tack away, and checked the minerals. Open a gate for the mama herd needs to be moved, they've spend to much time on the one pasture. So, we open the gate so they can work their way into another field, sometimes we'll call them.
[00:11:32]
If they don't have calves on them, I'll call them and that way I can kinda count them when they come through mostly and then shut the gate behind them. But right now I would not do that because they've all got little calves, so if you call them now, the mamas might come over and then leave their calf and you have to leave the gate open.
[00:11:48]
And then they end up spread across all these pastures, it's just easier to open a gate, they'll find it, and then they can bring their calf on through. And then once everybody's over there, we go down and check on then we'll shut them over. And then today, Friday, we've got farm store hours and meat came back from the processor today.
[00:12:09]
So every couple Fridays we get our beef back, the big refrigerated truck, that backs up to the garage door there and brings in a pallet full of meat and we [COUGH] pack it all into these freezers here. And then I display and the farm stores open from 12:00 to 5:00, somebody did just pull up that I don't recognize, and then they buy meat, it's a pretty cool process.
[00:12:40]
>> Luanne Hoverman: Okay, does the meat come from the slaughter or the processing plant frozen or is it fresh?
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: Well, today, it was fresh, cuz they just cut it yesterday but they put it in their freezer, and it's only fresh because it wasn't in there long enough. They probably cut it at the end of the day, Thursday, put it in the freezer in those boxes and so it didn't have time to freeze all the way.
[00:13:03]
But I take it to the farmer's market frozen, if people were adamant about having it fresh I do not commit to that and I'm just, I'm sorry you can't have it fresh because to me it's just I can't guarantee it. I used to try and get them that when people would ask and I would have the processor they'd put some stuff in the freezer and some in the fridge and then either they would deliver me back one or the other but not both.
[00:13:27]
It just was too much risk and trouble and so I just tell them, if they happen to get here and still not frozen, then that's great for them but I don't make that as an option. See if this guy knows, hang on one second.
>> Luanne Hoverman: So I want to ask about the rotational process.
[00:14:09]
How it works? Why it's important? How it helps the quality of the meat?
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: As far as the moving them constantly?
>> Luanne Hoverman: Moving them, plus the fact that they're eating the grass versus feeding them.
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: Right, so they have to be, as far as the finishing herd goes, they're handled in sort of different ways.
[00:14:30]
There's the mama herd, they have certain nutritional demands, if they have a calf on they need to make milk, so those needs need to be met calorie wise, protein, carbs, all that. The finishing herd are the ones who I'm trying to put weight on them as fast as possible, so they need to be gaining weight every single day hopefully three pounds, four pounds at the best of times.
[00:14:54]
[COUGH] And when the winter might be closer to pound and a half, two pounds depending on what grass is in front of them. So in order for them to actually make those gains and meet those nutritional demands without corn or grain supplements for energy, they need to be standing in front of palatable, delicious grass that they want to eat.
[00:15:11]
But if I have them standing in like most farmers, where I've got them standing on a huge field and they've been there for two weeks, they've hit it they've been around to every plant around. When you first let a cow onto a certain patch of grass no matter how big it is they'll come in and put their head down, smell it, everything is about smell to them.
[00:15:34]
They sample that and then they pretty much work the perimeter and then they'[ll go back and then they go back to that thing that was the most yummy smelling and the most palatable and they'll take a bite off of that. So my theory and the ideal situation for the pastures is they take one bite off of the plants and then I've moved them after that, they've had the one hit on it.
[00:15:59]
Because at that point, they're not damaging the plant, they're maybe stimulating it to grow some more, depending on when the life cycle. Plant they're eating it. Or they might be simulating root growth and depending on again if it's already gone to seed or not. So what I don't want them to do is be in one place for so many days that they've covered the entire pasture multiple times.
[00:16:28]
And when they do they'll go back to their really tasty bit and they chew it down smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller, so then it's damaged and set back on its regrowth schedule so long. Like they take one bite out of it, that plants gonna be ready to graze again in two weeks.
[00:16:45]
They take five bites and they eat it down to nothing, it could be a solid 30 days to 60 days before that plant has time to regrow, to be what it needs to be again. So if they go in and they spend enough time in a place, again, and this is why it means it's bad not to move them constantly, is that so they're setting back and they're stunting the growth of the ones that they need to be eating, that helped them gain weight.
[00:17:11]
And then by doing that the ones that they don't like, the weeds, they're getting stronger because the competition around them has been set back. So the weeds are getting more nutrients and being certified organic I can't go out there and spray those weeds. I have no, my only toolbox and tool against weeds is to mow them with the bush hog.
[00:17:34]
That's land management, how I manage the moving of the herds. So if I leave them on there it's just a couple days. I try to, we used to move them every single day, and there was a summer there where I moved them twice a day for about a month.
[00:17:46]
And it's just there's no point, my mother would be like, quit harassing the cows, just leave them alone. And I' d be like, I'm not harassing the cows. [LAUGH] I'm trying to just put them in front of good grass. But the general rule is that if the grass is growing fast, we move the herd fast, if it's growing slow, we slow them down a little bit.
[00:18:09]
But they shouldn't spend more than a couple days really anywhere. The mama herd I might give them a little bit more time because if they just had a calf it's kind of a lot to expect them to move with that to another pasture right away. Calves are pretty much within a couple hours of birth they're able to get up walk but it's stressful for them.
[00:18:29]
So it's beneficial for the grass. Another thing it does is that it moves them away from those manure pads. If they are in a certain area of the pasture, they're gonna poop and pee in that area. Then I can set up a wire, like a temporary electric wire on a spool we roll them up it's like poly wire.
[00:18:47]
And it has a little fine metallic thread through a plastic wire rolled up on a spool and then I roll it out and hang it on these little plastic step-in stakes so I can create a fence in the middle of the pasture instead of giving them a whole pasture I give them a segment of it.
[00:19:05]
And then they'll poop and pee in that area, urine has a lot of nitrogen, it's good for the soil, there are newer pads are out there. In certain times of the year when parasites are active in the warmer months of the year, and you leave them in that pasture for a long time then they're gonna be forced to graze once they've hit all the desired graze up close to those manure pads.
[00:19:30]
And they don't like to do that and they shouldn't be doing that, cuz then they're gonna be more susceptible to ingesting those parasites and have worms. As an organic producer, I can not use chemical de-wormers on my cows. So, and that's something that, for conventional cattlemen, they just cannot get their head around that you would not de-worm them.
[00:19:55]
It's just not something that they just lived by that now because they're gonna have 40 cows that are living on 40 acres. They'll have them on this field one day, or this field for six months and then move over here for six months, and I just don't operate that way.
[00:20:11]
My cows don't get worms, I don't make them graze in a way they're susceptible to that, I move them off of that land. [COUGH] So another reason to move them is flies in the summertime. The flies they lay their larva in the manure pads and you can go out there and see the flies all over the manure pads in the heat of the summer.
[00:20:35]
That's if the flies are getting to be a problem, I move them not just one pasture away but like 30 acres away, so that they are leaving the flies behind. It's now clearly some of them are gonna come, but not a lot. So that's another way, it's a management tool.
[00:20:54]
It's just moving them every couple days and getting them off of grass after they've had just that one bite, especially on the finishing, it's better for the animal, it's better for the land, it's better for everything.
>> Luanne Hoverman: You mentioned it's important to make sure that they have grass that they want to eat.
[00:21:12]
Now, as stupid as this sounds, can they get bored?
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: Yeah, if they're left in a place for a week, they're itching to get out of there. Even if there's like knee deep in great grass, they just, ours animals are used to moving around, they get antsy. And one way to keep them moving even in the winter when the grass may be isn't amazing anymore, let's say we're still grazing in December.
[00:21:39]
They're not getting hay yet because they'll still have grass. A lot of times, I out here we can graze all year around because the grass will be growing as long as the soil is 40 degrees or higher. And in the south, where we are here, you can make it through a lot of the winter before that happens, right?
[00:21:56]
>> Luanne Hoverman: Mm-hm.
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: But as far as the palatability goes, they've kind of hit it. After, we have, as far as the amount of space I give them, they have enough grass so that I know that they can get through the next 24 hours, probably 48 hours without being, feeling trapped at all.
[00:22:19]
And then the next step so, if I go out there you can see them, if I go out there like even, let's say in heat, if they're ready to go they'll show up and start following me around. If we walk out there with a wire and those stepping stakes and start setting up the fence have to walk back and forth across the pasture several times while we're putting stakes in and the line and I pull up the old fence, they're following us up and down the line waiting for that wire to come up.
[00:22:45]
They know what's about to happen and even if there's a ton of grass back there they're like, hey we're ready to go. And they're pretty easily trained by routine and calling and such like any animal might be when you reward them with something that they like, like fresh grass, even if the stuff behind them is fine.
[00:23:05]
I had the finishing herd out on this pasture that's called Melissa's pasture, cuz my sister Melissa used to live in the house on the other side of the pasture, and there's so much grass out there it's beyond what they could possibly make a dent in. The clovers this deep, there's crabgrass, there's fescues, there's all kind of stuff out there, it's ridiculous.
[00:23:23]
They can't even scratch the surface of it, barely. So, but I need them to continue to be moving because the mama herd is gonna come behind them and kind of do clean-up on that pasture. And right now, the mama herd is like hitting hard where they are, I need like these guys gotta keep moving forward so that the mamas can keep going forward.
[00:23:44]
Does that make sense?
>> Luanne Hoverman: Yeah.
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: So even though they don't need to be moved, they're fine, there's just a ridiculous amount of grass out there, I still gotta move them. So I went out the other day and pulled up the wire so they could have the second half of the pasture.
[00:23:59]
And they're like running because they had been in the same spot for three or four days, so they were just ready for a different view. There's zero reason, For them to leave [LAUGH] where they were but the prospect of new grass it's just fun. And also, they gain better.
[00:24:19]
I noticed that they looked about the same and then after about two or three days in one spot, it prompts them to graze more. I could go out there and move them in the heat of the day and they'll start eating, when normally they won't eat in the heat of the day.
[00:24:37]
So I figured that gets one extra grazing in, do it when they would not normally eat.
>> Luanne Hoverman: Yeah, how does it work for your bulls? Because they have to kind of be separate, because they can get kind of aggressive, right?
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: All bulls, you just have to watch them.
[00:24:55]
I always tell anybody that's working with me, I know I don't ever want to call anybody's parents and explain to them [COUGH] why my bull hurt their child, or spouse or whatever. And I say do not ever forget that a bull has been bred to do one thing, and it's not like give a crap about you or where you are.
[00:25:15]
So you always know where the bull is at in the pasture. If there's bull that's on foot in the pasture working in, you need to have access. You should not be out there without pickup trucks, especially if it's a big 40 acre pasture or something. You should not be that far from the fence if you are on foot, you should have a cow stick or something like that.
[00:25:36]
That being said if I ever have a bull that looks twice at me, they're dead, they go to the slaughter I'm done, there's no second chances on that. That's just not something I mess around with. I care too much about people that work for me and have family and that's not a phone call I'm gonna make.
[00:26:00]
But we used to have about eight bulls about a year ago. Cuz we had so many animals. And we had been through at the time, there was a time, maybe 2014, when I found out after about four month window that my bull was not working. And a not-working bull means nobody's getting pregnant during that window which means nobody nine months later is having calves for a four-month window.
[00:26:25]
Which means I got no one coming up slaughter age for a four month window between your staff and that-
>> Luanne Hoverman: Cuz there's only a certain amount of time that they can breed.
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: They're real particular, they all come into season every 30 days until they get bred, a cow.
[00:26:42]
And I think a lot of times they'll stay in. There's more to that than I know. But I know that I couldn't have him not working for that particular time period and we had a lot of cows then. So we went up to Biltmore and bought two big herd bulls who were mature and ready to to work.
[00:27:03]
They're about three and a half years old, and they were half brothers. So I put them on there and they had the whole herd bred, within geez, 30, 60 days I think. So the lesson, the moral of that story was, that what we decided after that was that we would just start keeping bull calves and raising them up out of our own herd, rather than castrating all the bull calves and the steers.
[00:27:29]
We would keep a few that looked good at early times and just raise them up with our, and what we would do is when we would wean calves at six to nine months of age, we never weaned them younger than six, for sure. And I'd like to do it closer to eight, seven and eight.
[00:27:51]
We would keep taking him out of the mama cow and her genetics. We would keep a few of them when they were little and then when, the thing about bulls though is they like to start working when they're six months old. And I can't have them out there breeding with the other mom, then they're interfering with my herd bulls who are trying to actually get work done.
[00:28:13]
Does that make sense?
>> Luanne Hoverman: Mm-hm.
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: Like they're messing around with the big bull and the big bull is having to spend energy kicking them off whenever he needs to be breeding. So they need to be removed. So I would take the mamas and the young bull calves to a separate property and just have essentially a bull pen with their mama there.
[00:28:31]
Or you have to wean them a little bit earlier than you would. And the males are always the big babies, they take weaning worse than the heifers ever do, it's ridiculous. So we kept our own bulls, we would have a bunch of the time and then we'd always put two in to work the herd and we'd get the breeding done at a time.
[00:28:50]
And that way, I didn't have to worry about one getting broke and you can overwork them, I learn that was another thing we learned the hard way. You cannot put one bull on 50 cows year round. It's just too much, they need to have a break. And then we start implementing calving seasons just for our own frigging personal sanity because when we had 90 cows we were calving year round.
[00:29:20]
And then, so we calve year round, which means that there was always somebody that now needed be weaned. And so then we'd have to work the herd and pull out the weaned calves. And that mean that there always had to be somebody that needed to be moved from one farm to another.
[00:29:36]
So after about four or five years, we decided to have two calving seasons, one in the spring and one in the fall, where we'd have two four months season. So we calve four months, be off two calve four months, be off two and so the bulls worked and we took them in and out of those herds, according to that.
[00:29:56]
>> Luanne Hoverman: Okay.
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: Makes sense?
>> Luanne Hoverman: Yeah, now do the bulls graze all together like-
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: Mm-hm.
>> Luanne Hoverman: Cuz I know you can't, unless you're trying to breed them, you don't put the bulls with-
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: The cows.
>> Luanne Hoverman: The cows.
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: So they would be separate, so what I would do is when we wean the young ones, I always have bull pens somewhere and I could put my steers out there.
[00:30:17]
So what I would do is, when we would wean them all, wean everybody, I have the heifers went to one property. Let's say the heifers as yearlings go to the Creek Ranch and there would be other heifers there, hey dad.
>> Luanne Hoverman: Hey, need any help?
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: No, these are not customers, come in and I'll introduce you.
[00:30:35]
>> Luanne Hoverman: Okay.
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: [LAUGH] All right I guess y'all can introduce yourselves. This is my dad, Steve.
>> Dad: I'm Steve.
>> Luanne Hoverman: Nice to meet you my name's LouAnn.
>> Dad: How you doing?
>> Luanne Hoverman: I'm a graduate student at UNC Charlotte.
>> Dad: Okay.
>> Luanne Hoverman: And this is Mike, he's my husband.
[00:30:46]
He's also in the class. And we've been interviewing, the whole class has been interviewing area farmers, produce and livestock to get an idea of who supplies the Charlotte food shed.
>> Dad: Okay, we do a little piece of it.
>> Luanne Hoverman: I'm sorry?
>> Dad: We do a little piece of the food shed.
[00:31:03]
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: You wanna sit in dad you can contribute, we're talking about bulls.
>> Dad: Nah, I'll wait, I was just checking.
>> Luanne Hoverman: Yeah, you're more than welcome.
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: I think that you should. Are you gonna take a nap or something or taking- Well, I will be taking a nap shortly.
[00:31:13]
[LAUGH] Well, they were just asking about bulls and how we manage them and stuff. So we would have all the heifers go to one farm and that meant all the steers would go to the farm where the bulls are. Because steers and the bulls can more or less not have any qualms with each other.
[00:31:31]
And we might keep one cow or two out there to get the bulls to keep them from standing at the fence fussing. And that would kind of give them something to do but we always said that any time you have a bull pen that every night at sundown there was a bull fight.
[00:31:48]
Cuz you can look out there right about dusk every night and they would decide it was time to just fight. And that's just, we don't know why, that was the way they live, that's the way they do. So anytime we have a lot of bulls together, they just need to have enough space so that they can postulate to each other and move around without tearing up.
[00:32:11]
Any offenses or hurting each other. You would not put them into a tight space at all.
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: Is there anything you want to add to that, Dad?
>> Dad: Well, bulls are a lot easier to manage if you don't want to have a calving season, or if you do have a calving season, like we like, in spring, then you got to find something to do with them whenever they're not breeding the cattle.
[00:32:35]
And that's the problem, you gotta have a place for them. It's gotta be very secure, you can't have any other cows around. Cuz they'll break out and get to the other cows. And they are managable problems. And now we got a greater of an investment than we've ever had.
[00:32:56]
We just share our goal with another guy, that's on our old farm down in Blacksburg. And if there was our goal [INAUDIBLE]. And he doesn't have a calving season so he takes care of the bull whenever we don't need him and then we bring him up here.
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: Yeah and he's got, we know it's genetics cuz we-
[00:33:15]
>> Dad: We bred him.
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: We raised his mama, and we bred him. And so we know what his calves looked like before. And that's a lot easier than the other option. What a lot of guys do is they just buy a new one every year. Now, they use them for a couple months, however long they want their calving season to be and then they'd sell them off and you know it's a sale barn.
[00:33:36]
>> Dad: We're very particular about our bulls, [INAUDIBLE]. We wanna know what kind of calves they throw, if they can throw a small calf or a good calf. I know why I do that and yes, I would pay a lot of money for a bull. You can't just go to sale barn and buy a [INAUDIBLE] bull.
[00:33:55]
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: Right, and the thing about, if you go to the sale barn you don't know those things about how big their calves are gonna be, which is the most important thing to us. And we don't wanna get some random bull that's gonna make really giant babies, where we're gonna have to go out and pull calves, or mamas might be in a potentially dangerous situation.
[00:34:14]
That's just a lot of risk.
>> Dad: Yeah, we've found that it's a far better life on the farm if your cows deliver their calves without assistance.
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: Right.
>> Dad: If you have to keep pulling calves all the time, it can make your life miserable and create all sorts of problems.
[00:34:34]
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: All kinds of problems, yeah.
>> Luanne Hoverman: Okay, I wanna go back to the grass. Are there things that can grow in the grass that can make the cow sick?
>> Luanne Hoverman: Any kind of-
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: Yeah, there's some toxic plants out there. As a matter of fact, a couple of years ago there was a real bad drought in this area.
[00:34:55]
In the late summer, early fall, it didn't rain for two months. And I remember I read about where- Not one of our farmers but some farmer had lost a cow because she ate too much of something called perilla mint. And it looks like a basil plant, a sort of variety of basil and mint, smelly, and it's got an off-putting smell.
[00:35:16]
And I'm sure that they only ate that plant cuz it was the last thing in that person's pasture. And they were starving, that was a starving cow. Our cows would never be put in that position where they are forced to eat something like that. There are gonna be some toxic things out there, but there's so much other variety of things that they won't.
[00:35:38]
And then our healthy interest is that they're not gonna eat something, more likely than not, that they shouldn't. I don't really know of other things that are true that toxic to them in this area. That's the only one that I have heard about.
>> Dad: And one more common problem is the things that normally are fine for a cow, like fescue grass and other types of grass, normally are fine.
[00:36:05]
But with certain weather conditions, like a lot of rain and the frost-
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: Yeah.
>> Dad: Make them toxic. Things that they normally eat, like fescue, fescue can be toxic in certain weather conditions.
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: Right, yeah, there are certain weather patterns and conditions. There's a particular fungus that grows in the seed head of fescues, infested fescue.
[00:36:29]
And if they eat a whole lot of it, it can be toxic to them. And some cows seem to be more susceptible to it than others. But if it doesn't rain out here for months at a time, the only thing out there in that pasture is fescue. And it's been the foundation of the cattle industry in the Southeast and that's what will grow and it lives a long time in the winter.
[00:36:52]
It's drought resistant, and pretty cold tolerant so we have to have it but it's not likely to kill them. [LAUGH]
>> Dad: In our situation, the biggest problem we have with drought, because we're certified organic, is getting the weeds out of our pasture before they can take it over.
[00:37:11]
Got test by poison.
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: Yeah.
>> Dad: So we're constantly battling the weeds in any way that we can.
>> Luanne Hoverman: It sounds like maybe a small goat herd would be-
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: I know, right? We'll argue this. I've got a new little girl, Bailey, who's helping us on the farm.
[00:37:28]
And she lives across the street, and she just loves all things farm and she has goats. So she was like, just let me know, I could bring him over here and tie him up, and I'm like anytime you wanna come tie it up I'll understand. I guess she's gonna put him on a leash or something and stake him nearby.
[00:37:43]
>> Dad: [LAUGH] I saw a picture of one her goats.
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: [LAUGH] He's like a bull horn [CROSSTALK] I know. I'm like, I guess you can just stake him into the ground and come back later [LAUGH]. Or they're not gonna stand there and cry [LAUGH]. Are they gonna eat the weed?
[00:37:59]
>> Dad: We could goat answer for that you don't have control it.
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: I'm afraid they'll leave the property. Yeah, that's what I'm afraid will happen is that we don't have necessarily goat-proof fencing all over the farm nor do we care to go rebuild all of our exterior fencing for it.
[00:38:19]
>> Luanne Hoverman: Yeah, that makes sense.
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: But there are, I have seen not certified organic operations but I know like the multispecies, whenever they move cows, and chickens, and sheep, and goats, they talk about, as far as weed control then that's another method.
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: Grazing, I know an animal that's gonna hit different things after the cows.
[00:38:40]
>> Luanne Hoverman: Yeah,
>> Luanne Hoverman: How was this past winter cuz this past winter was very wet. And so, did you have any issues with the amount of rain? I'm sure, I'd like to think it helped people in lush pastures for the cows.
>> Dad: Yeah, the grass is growing along [INAUDIBLE].
[00:38:59]
The bad thing, they only real bad part is that, we just put them, in winter, slagging through mud puddles and mud holes and mud all over the place. And that just gets old. [INAUDIBLE] And the remnants of it is what they call in the pastures. It's where the cows get on really, really wet soil and they weigh so much they press down the soil.
[00:39:26]
And it forces all the air out, so between that far apart, and it just creates concrete. So you can walk out there somewhere on the pasture right now and you can't really walk across them [INAUDIBLE]. And it's that concrete and it's not gonna go away for a long, long time.
[00:39:46]
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: So that that it's just the day that everything is harder every- All the daily chores are harder- Dad, sit down. All the daily the chores are harder if it's cold and rainy. You have to wear more clothes and so you're wearing pretty heavy boots and heavy, heavy jackets, and the rain is like running off.
[00:40:07]
You know I mean it just makes everything more difficult, when its heavy raining, the cows, they'll move fine in the rain that's not so much of an issue but the stuff freezes, if it's that way we couldn't really get down the barn without four wheel drive, and you want to drive in the cold and rain because otherwise you are soaked before you can get down there, and at one point we had to haul the animals out.
[00:40:39]
It's important that we make slaughter dates, you know, like I got to get animals, to even get them up. I was afraid I wasn't going to be able to get them from the round pen and onto the gravel because the whole rig was just sliding. We're talking about a 2500 truck and a 25 foot cattle trailer just sliding all sideways.
[00:41:05]
>> Luanne Hoverman: [LAUGH] Mh-hm.
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: So, yeah, in four wheel drive. The ground was so saturated. So what we decided to do was we backed the cattle trailer up to the round pen using the tractor. We have a four wheel drive tractor. It's got 90 tires in the front, big 90 tires on the back.
[00:41:24]
And it has this special hitch attachment where you can put a ball. So you can carry, you can move something that uses, it's like a ball hitch. And then if we couldn't get out, then we could use the tractor to tow up it to solid ground. Set it and trailer down and then hook the tractor up.
[00:41:44]
But on the upside, we knew that it would be a bummer spring, from on the grass point of view because the ground water takes time. And the spring grass should just boom,which it has. That's been nice. So there's good and bad rain. In the summertime Years ago, it rained and rained and rained one summer.
[00:42:09]
And the road cropper people were just having a time of it. And the newspaper came out and said, well, how are y'all, what kind of struggles are you having in this rain? I was like, we're growing the **** out of some grass out here, the cows were gaining, I mean, they were gaining three and four pounds a.
[00:42:25]
Which is remarkable on grass to do that in the heat of the summer. Because the grass was just kept growing. Just kept raining and we kept mowing it and the grass kept growing. I mean it was great, yeah. We were like, we're fine. [LAUGH]
>> Luanne Hoverman: So overall you guys have being in business for about 20 years or almost.
[00:42:49]
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: Yeah.
>> Luanne Hoverman: What kind of changes have you had to make over the years whether it be to how you practice or really anything. Type of cattle, has that changed?
>> Dad: Has what changed?
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: Yeah.
>> Luanne Hoverman: The type of cattle.
>> Dad: The type of cattle?
>> Luanne Hoverman: Yeah, like specific breeds.
[00:43:08]
Have you-
>> Dad: No, not really. I mean, we have changed a lot in twenty years on this farm, just because we wanted to make changes. But, if nothing, the environment of cattle farming, that never had changed. There's alot of different ways to through a cattle farm and there's still people doing it all kinds of different ways.
[00:43:30]
>> Luanne Hoverman: No, for example, I just realized. You became certified organic in 2009. So before that, were you basically using organic practices, you just didn't have the certification, or did you change anything to get that.
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: Well that's our initial run counts here, 2001 maybe, 2002.
>> Dad: 2000, 2001 [INAUDIBLE].
[00:43:52]
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: So I would even say a few sentences about what you all did before. We were, he transitioned to grass fed in maybe 2005 or 2006 maybe because I got here in 2008 and there was already a herd you know a herd of that had nothing but grass and so you could probably have them in front organically two years before that but he did cow cap before that.
[00:44:22]
And also had a soccer operation.
>> Dad: Now we were using chemicals back then that we can't use if you're certified organic. So we weren't really doing it organically. But we grass feed them as much as we can. But there were definitely approaches. We would find calves for awhile at the sale barn and raising them.
[00:44:42]
I got big 6,700 truckload of calves and it's done way different than what we're doing. We've been doing certified organic cow calf operation where we the calves are born and raised on our farm all the way to slaughter raise. We've been doing that quite a while now.
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: Yeah, keeping the calves as opposed to, most farmers have enough land they can keep a momma herd.
[00:45:11]
They have a bull come and do the breeding. When the calves get old enough to be weaned they sell them to either another farmer that maybe has a stock in operation and doesn't have moments but just has calves that they know at that point they banned selling the other weight.
[00:45:25]
But we keep our calves. We just separate them from the mom now so that she can start to get ready for another calf and then instead of moving those calves off the farm we keep them here. But we've, we've had a hard time to get you know the sort of our.
[00:45:41]
It's easier to find access to those certifiers now than it used to be. When we were first doing it, it took, when we first started, six to nine months just to get a certifier who would come out here and not charge us $10,000. It was just really hard to find.
[00:46:00]
There wasn't much organic meat anywhere, there was organic, And there were some organic produce. So that was a challenge finding our certifier, and then, we did look at our herd at that point and said you know if we're going to do just grass, we probably want to have a certain kind of animal.
[00:46:22]
We don't want really big frame animals that are gonna have to eat a ton. We've gone through different philosophies on having framing animals versus ones that are more efficient, and who are maybe not big mamas themselves, but can wean off a big calf. And that depends on if we're selling.
[00:46:40]
I'm selling steaks at the farmers market, and I want that steak to be big and I don't need a bunch of extra bones on the carcass you know versus if I'm selling wholesale like we sold at a whole foods market for a while and we were getting paid on a hanging weight on the side beef, when that has the bones in it, minus the skull.
[00:46:59]
And so I need to have a big hanging, heavy carcass. And so framing helps me out in that circumstance. And so in that case it would have been good to have some bigger, framier animals.
>> Luanne Hoverman: So I guess what I'm trying to get to is what made you decide to Make the leap to organic, to go to all that extra effort.
[00:47:22]
>> Dad: Something I wanted to know, and then Shelly sort of came and implemented it, I just got tired of the traditional role of the farmers. Small farmers like me, we have a cow calf operation, we raise them until they're weaned and then we sell them off to a stockier somewhere.
[00:47:44]
A stockier operation which especially pays us cash and then from the stockier operation they go out in west cathedral and they spend the last three or four months of their lives in the feed lot out West where the life is just terrible for a cow. They're shoulder to shoulder on a muddy lot.
[00:48:03]
They're eating out of a feed trough all day.
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: Standing out in the sun. They got no shade.
>> Dad: They got nothing, they never see grass. They don't have any-
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: Just stand in mud.
>> Dad: I mean it's just a miserable existence for like the last three or four months of their lives and it always bothered me that I was sending my calves off to a life like that.
[00:48:22]
So I started thinking about doing it in a better way and more natural way for the cow. And when Shelly came back here we started working on implementing effective changement. Of course when you do that then you gotta have some way to market the cow. When it's slaughtered you gotta have some way to sell it or you can't stay in business, obviously.
[00:48:44]
And I really didn't have any way to do that until she started going to the farmer's markets and that kind of thing.
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: Yeah and so if you don't, you know we retain ownership of our animals now, they don't leave the farm until we take them to slaughter.
[00:48:59]
And the other ways, like he was saying, I used to say all paths lead to the combined animal feeding operation for most weaned calves. You can sell them to a stocker, but then he's gonna sell them to the feed lot. And so we just didn't want to be a part of that whole system.
[00:49:19]
And the way to do that is to sell the meat ourselves.
>> Luanne Hoverman: That's understandable, sounds like it's very much an ethical calling.
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: Yeah and this is the kind of meat that we wanna eat and this is the kinda meat I want my family to eat. It just tastes better and so this is just something I always-
[00:49:40]
>> Dad: Yeah and it's way healthier beef to eat. Healthier for us and the animal itself is also healthier. There's been a lot of research done on that.
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: There's been a lot of scientific research on that, the fat profile is a really heathy fat, more omega three's versus omega six's and conventional meat is the fat that you should eat and it just tastes better too so that's a nice plus.
[00:50:09]
Once you get used to having it and that flavor of the meat, it's really, no other meat has flavor after that, it's all very bland. And I would say that the feed lot is the great equalizer. You can take any animal, any cow from any genetic background, from any farm anywhere in the country, no matter what sex, or shade, or whatever they are, whatever's been done to them before that and if you put them in a feed lot for six months and feed them all exactly the same thing, but the meat is gonna be exactly the same.
[00:50:42]
And that's kind of the point of feed lots is that there's zero difference in diversity that way, the chef's don't have to know anything about meat anymore.
>> Dad: And it's the cheapest way to raise them now.
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: And it's so cheap. Yeah, you don't have to have all of this land, that's the big difference.
[00:51:03]
>> Dad: People, excuse me, people always wonder, very few people understand that's why grass-fed beef, not to mention organic beef, this is grass-fed beef so much more expensive than conventional beef and it's simply because you have so darn much land to raise a little calf all the way up to slaughter age on grass.
[00:51:23]
Now you have to have a lot of grass to move them around, got a lot of grass per calf. And in a feed lot, you could put 10,000 calves out there and it gets really cheap. And feed them corn and corn is so cheap because it's raised about ten states in this country.
[00:51:43]
>> Luanne Hoverman: Not to mention it's very, it's more labor intensive. Because you have to keep moving the cows through the pastures instead of just putting them in a pasture for, like you said, six months, right?
>> Dad: Yeah the labor per cow is way higher.
>> Luanne Hoverman: Yeah, speaking of labor, what's your labor force like on the farm?
[00:52:05]
Who works?
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: I got dad here. [LAUGH] And-
>> Dad: I'm not much help, but I'm a little help.
>> Luanne Hoverman: [LAUGH]
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: And then we've got a part-timer, we generally keep two part-timers that'll be doing anywhere between 10 and 15 hours a week, maybe 20 hours a week in the hay time.
[00:52:25]
Whenever we're putting up hay that's real labor intensive hours, a time consuming task in the heat of the summer. Now this year, we've got another person selling with me at the farmers market and so, almost always have that labor with that, so they'll be closer to 15 hours.
[00:52:43]
>> Dad: We usually have two part-time people and then some family help also.
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: Yeah, we have the family who sort of vacillates between slave labor and, I do pay the teenagers because I want them to like the idea of farming and not be tormented even though I do often make them work, I will pay them to do that.
[00:53:08]
So that's one of the nice things about having your own business is being able to hire who you want and people who we want to be around and people who are equally passionate about what we're doing.
>> Dad: And we find good people because of the fact that we find people that really wanna do this, not just people looking for work.
[00:53:24]
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: Yeah.
>> Dad: But we have great people working for us, both of them now and we usually do. The bottom is they're always part time because they always have other jobs or they can't afford to work here.
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: Yeah.
>> Dad: But we find people that looking for a few hours of work but they really like doing it cause they're so much better employers that way.
[00:53:46]
>> Luanne Hoverman: Now I'm trying to get a sense of sort of the life cycle, if you will, of your beef. Like how long does it take going from calf to slaughterhouse?
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: They're typically, right now we're slaughtering them anywhere from the age of 20 to 24 months, usually 20, 22 is ideal, 22 is really good.
[00:54:11]
What we have found, we used to slaughter them very young, we've seen kind of younger than that, but what we have found is that they can be a little bit older as long as they're properly fat, which they just took out to be. And when I say fat, that's also saying finished, which means, that finished means that they're fat enough in all the right places that is going to make delicious meat.
[00:54:35]
That flavor and tenderness comes from them being fat. And so that's really more important than age but typically we've been around 22 months.
>> Dad: Yeah, we rarely don't ever go over 24 months.
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: Yeah.
>> Dad: And the livestock, they spend about seven to nine months with their mama.
[00:54:56]
They just nurse from their mama and then they're eating grass towards the end of that. And then we'll wean them and we'll send the calves out to our other little farm down the road here where there's nothing but young calves and they'll be there five, six months, and maybe a little more than that.
[00:55:16]
And then they'll come back and they'll be in our finishing corral here. We've got some over here in the southern pasture, and they're big calves then, and we'll finish them off there.
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: So there's three different places that they'll be, in that the finishing herd that's here, the last group that they're in, those are the ones that, we're weighing them, we're constantly bringing up to the round pen, monitoring their gains.
[00:55:38]
We can see how much they've gained from the last time we weighed them. And we know how old they all are and generally which ones are gonna probably get slaughtered next. [SOUND] This is that customer. [SOUND] This is Shelly.
>> Luanne Hoverman: So I wanna go back to the slaughter process.
[00:56:14]
Which processing plant do you?
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: We use Mays Meats right now. And that's in Taylorsville, North Carolina. It's about an hour and a half drive. Like 65 miles or something like that. It's really not far. It's pretty easy to get to, and they're a family owned business. It's been the same employees they've had up there for, gosh they're like lifelong employees, a lot of people up there.
[00:56:41]
They got certified organic cuz I asked them to. [LAUGH] It took about three years for me to get them to get certified after we got the farm certified and my animals certified. I couldn't claim it on the meat. I couldn't have that stamp on the meat until the processor also got certified.
[00:57:03]
About the time I got our final audit, and the paperwork came through here, the woman who was in charge of all the paperwork out there, her father was entering the phase of really terrible painful death, long, drawn out death. And so she was just not able to help me with that at the time, so that kinda had to go back on a back burner for a couple of years until she was finally able to spend time on that.
And it was more complicated for them than I thought it would be. I really didn't think there was gonna be anything different in how, for them, as far as being certified organic. But with Bayer, the documentation is more intense. And our animals, when we drop them off, they're not supposed to physically touch any other animal up there.
[00:57:50]
They cannot be in a pen with any other animals. They can't share water with any other animals, nothing. And so, generally what they they do is when I get there with mine, they take them down straight off the trailer. They don't stand anywhere. They get off the trailer and then they're into the kill shoot immediately.
[00:58:10]
So that's great for me, because you're talking about an animal who has spent their entire life on an open pasture. And then to be standing in a pen and in a building even if it's a 20 foot ceiling, it's still something they're not used to.
>> Luanne Hoverman: And sounds like you don't really want their last moments to be in a-
[00:58:32]
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: Yeah it doesn't need to be stressful it needs to be calm, they need to be handled calmly. We don't run our cows, when we're sorting and weighing the day before, we train everybody that would work for us in that way, how to move animals, how to apply pressure via your body, how to back away.
[00:58:52]
So they need to be preferably walking anywhere that they go, no burning of extra calories. [LAUGH] So, occasionally they get excited about something running in their space, but they don't encourage it. Yeah, they lead a really happy, a mellow lifestyle, occasionally you'll get one that's wild. I try to get rid of them out of the herd, the way to do that is to get rid of the mamma, crazy mamma makes crazy calf.
[00:59:21]
One crazy calf makes the entire crew crazy. And if they're wild, well after I wean then away from their mother, if they cannot keep it together then they're veal. So a couple of times a year or once a year or some years not at all, I'll have veal, grass-fed certified organic veal to sell.
[00:59:40]
Which is super popular. But only if they are trying to kill me.
>> Luanne Hoverman: Okay, now, as a non farmer, I'm trying to understand how it works when you decide who you want to breed. Obviously big females, who to sell to the slaughter house, who you keep.
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: Right, well, we're in a business of selling a need, so all of my steers, which are castrated bull calves, their whole purpose is to become meat, so they will be always finished that way.
[01:00:15]
It's something, the only way that they will not become beef is if for some reason they won't fatten out or that there's some impediment to them being a good tasty product. Does that make sense? Like, maybe something befalls them and they get sick and they have to have an antibiotic, they're out.
[01:00:36]
I generally will not keep them on the property at that point, because they're eating grass and I cannot sell them as organic. And it doesn't matter if they were three days old or three months old, I will not be able to slaughter that animal when they're 22 months old, with the organic stamp on it, period.
[01:00:57]
Even though the antibiotics are long gone from their system. So that would be one way they would not go into the normal system. The finishing herd, once the heifers and steers are together in the finishing herd is whenever we start. And they're getting older up in age, they'll be here in the finishing herd when they're anywhere from maybe 15 to 22 months old, maybe more like 17 to 22 months.
[01:01:25]
And I can see how they're growing out and how they're shaping up on the heifers. The heifers are any female that's never had a calf is a heifer, and so I can see how they're looking. Are they straight back line, how they fatten, how slick they are, what their temper is, their disposition.
[01:01:43]
And at that point I would decide on the females if I wanna keep her and make a mama out of her or if she's just to become beef. And that will be determined on who her mother is, how she looks, and how many mommas I currently have, like do I need one?
[01:02:01]
Do I need to add some more? Generally in the past we've always added six or seven heifers to the herd every year. And when you do that you will end up with a pretty damn big herd pretty quickly. And we often did that at the expense of meat.
[01:02:21]
I've got one out there now that's so pretty, I just don't think I can bring myself to take her in. And I need some more mommas anyway. So what I really need to do is take her out of the finishing herd, cause she's just out there getting really fat, and put her in with the mom cows now.
[01:02:40]
>> Luanne Hoverman: So I met, well I had sent you an email cuz I found your website, and then I talked to you at the Matthew's Farmers Market. How did you get started with selling your meat at the farmers markets?
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: I went to this conference, back in 2009 in the fall, and it was just a panel up in Nashville, and there were some couple of guys on there who were selling grass-fed meat.
[01:03:02]
And they said you can do three things, they made it sound so simple. He said first you get a meat handler's license, and then you establish your relationship with a processor, and then you take some meat to the farmers markets. So after I went to that I was like okay, we can do that.
[01:03:19]
So I called the NCDA. I'm like, hi, I'm Shelly, I need to get a meat handlers license. They send somebody down here to basically make sure that you can fog a mirror and you can get a meat handlers license, anybody can do it. They look at your room to make sure that you don't have rats and dead **** laying around the freezers and that you don't have butter beans in there with what meat you're going to sell.
[01:03:40]
So a meat handlers license gives you a certification by the state to sell meat, and you cannot have killed it on your farm, unless it's like under a couple chickens. And then the processing, they said call the processor and establish a relationship with the processor. So I called up to May's Meats, I'm like, hi, I'm Shelly.
[01:04:01]
You haven't met me yet. And of course they're like
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: Yay, don't care about you. [LAUGH] Don't know you. I mean, they don't like taking seriously up there until I started coming up like we were out soldering. She's four, five cows a month or something. We were up there a lot.
[01:04:16]
And I pay my bills on time. They went back. So [COUGH] did that. And then so when we finally got meat back from the processor, I mean we had never even had it before. I didn't really even eat any beef before we started doing this. So I had no idea what it was going to taste like or what the difference between conventional meat and grass fed was going to be.
[01:04:39]
So after we got that first feedback here in the farm, we all set
>> [NOISE]
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: Sorry, we just sat down we had like kind of a mixed grill with us strips and we all kind of looked around the table. We were like, okay, here we go and we were all just blown away at how much flavor it had.
[01:05:07]
We had never had anything like it. It was so damn good. I could not believe it. And I was like, this is fabulous. Then I went up to the farmer's market that weekend with one cooler full of different cuts and the guy, Frank, it was the Charlotte Regional Farmer's Markets.
[01:05:26]
Older guy Frank, he's retired now, was the manager and he assigned me a spot, paid my ten bucks or whatever it was. And I sold all of the meat that I had in that cooler with a little poster on the table within an hour and a half or something, and it went really fast.
[01:05:43]
I just didn't realize that there was that much demand for it. So I came back the next week to the farmer's market, same time, and he said, no, I'm sorry, we're full. And I was like, no, no, no. I need to be here, guys. There's people going to be expecting me out here last week.
[01:05:59]
He's like, well, we're full, there's no space for you. And I was like, okay, so it threw it around for a little bit. My mom was with me. And I found this sweet, little Russian lady who sells homemade bread at the market there, and she was at the end of the building.
[01:06:14]
And we up to her. And i said, we'll pay your table fee if you let us share this space. And I'll tell everybody to buy your bread. Now, our guest this one cooler, not gonna take a loss and she was really sweet. She let us do them. And then people came back about me the week before and they said, my god, and I first thought was [INAUDIBLE].
[01:06:40]
And these three people came up and said, that's the best meat I have in my entire life. And I was like scared me to death but there was just not nothing else like it on market at the time. There was some other that the producers go. They weren't really getting the animals fat at the time or they were kind of on some on cows for grasses and they just, it just wasn't great.
[01:07:04]
But and something about the difference of the genetics or the grass of our animals. It was just so good. And they did a newspaper article about us in that fall. And then next thing you know they were there two people didn't even land at farmers markets, Charlotte, it was amazing.
[01:07:30]
>> Luanne Hoverman: What are some misunderstood aspects of farming more general agricultural ignorance with the public?
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: Just the animal modification in general, not all don't forms on animal don't indicate sex. It doesn't have anything to with bull or cow, or heifer, that's a breed specific trait generally.
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: All cows, you can milk all cows, that's a fake one.
[01:08:02]
Even a lot of people, they ask if we have milk. I cannot milk for cows. They're being cows and they're usually different than dairy cows. We've had to milk cow one time to get some milk out of them, or end up had to be able to put it into a gate.
[01:08:19]
And it's a fight. They do not, can't get up mess with my cows. They're just not tame like a dairy cow. I get that a lot. People want to come and see the farm. There's not a lot to see. The grass is tall and scratchy. You have to wear clothes to have shoes, I mean, like walk out there.
[01:08:42]
They're big, you can't have your children skipping and run through the fields with cows. My kids can do that, but they know what to do. If something goes crazy and if you are going to start running around, they're going to start running around. So there's the general temperament, when having a big operation like that, they get a lot of animals that are, they just can't handle them in that way, how they act.
[01:09:10]
Another misconception, we're getting rich. That's a good one. I can't tell you how many people, it's always men, come up at the farmer's market, and you can see the wheels turning in their head that I'm charging $7.50 for a pound of ground beef. And they're like, how many pounds of meat do you get off cow?
[01:09:27]
How many cows do you slaughter? How many cows you have on the property? And you can see they're trying to add up how much money I'm making, with zero clue as to what goes on on the farm. As far as what it costs to bring this meat to the table.
[01:09:45]
From an animal having to get pregnant, be pregnant for nine months. And the calf's got to to be at her side for nine months. Then the calf's got to be moved around multiple pastures for the next 15 months, or something. And then I got to call into slaughter.
[01:10:01]
And I got to pay a thousand or it's more than $1,000 for every animal that we slaughter. It's $1.37 for every pound of meat that I sell that goes to that processor. It's very expensive and then get out then put it in coolers on Saturday morning and drag it up to the farmer's market into your alls table.
[01:10:22]
So there, you'd come out and see this house and think that this is all none of this is paid for about this land, none of these animals hardly. We pay our part timers and I finally get my truck paid for so dad's never been paid for any of this.
[01:10:45]
I do pay my kids and I get a little something beyond my trite payment that the farm makes and that's it. You can make money doing it, we tried for a long time to get really big, and then we made good money with Whole Foods, and then that went on for about a year and then, and then they wanted to lower the price.
[01:11:10]
And they went and found somebody else who would take a lower price and they then came back and pressured me to lower our price. And I was like, yeah, I give all the ****. No, not doing it. I'm just not going to work this hard and make less money.
[01:11:28]
We were working so hard to meet those quotas and process that many animals and I'm just like crawl into bed with my grocery store and they were like we can give you some loans and you can buy some more land cuz they kept saying what do we need they wanted more.
[01:11:44]
They wanted more and more and more and that's like, yeah, we went down that road, and I'm not doing it again. I forgot what the question was, what were you talking about initially? Misconceptions, yeah, in the sense that, yeah, that we're making a lot of money.
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: Let's see, I think the real, it's that I don't think the people think its easy now.
[01:12:12]
I think it's very labor intensive but what I think that people maybe never think about, I wouldn't call it a misconception but what I think to never really consider. And I maybe didn't really think a lot about, until they got here, was the livestock. Anytime you have a regular job, you have a tick list in your mind every day of like what you want to get accomplished.
[01:12:38]
Any time you're working with livestock, they also have their own idea of what they're going to be doing that day that probably has nothing to do with what farmer wants to accomplish. And so any time we go do something with animals whether it's move them from one pasture to another or load them onto the trailer and haul them somewhere.
[01:12:56]
Or feed bulls, put out minerals or whatever we need to do. They may or may not cooperate. And so you kinda firmly, when I first got here we were still learning how to do a lot of this stuff. And we could go out to try and get something done and get nothing done.
[01:13:18]
And spend hours in absolute frustration. And this really drove me nuts because, everyday we didn't get something done, was more **** on the next day that needed to get done. Like that just put off and added on to the long list of **** we already had to get done.
[01:13:37]
Whether it was like broken equipment or livestock or weather, rain when we needed to be cut hay or lightning when he put the fence out. There's just so many variables between livestock and weather led to a lot of frustration that you really cannot let just maybe make you crazy.
[01:13:57]
You have to release to that whole, I'm definitely gonna get these things done today mentality. You kinda have to be a little more flexible I guess. Cuz I would be like, my God, Dad, we're getting so behind. He's like, we're never gonna, the list's always gonna be there.
[01:14:13]
You're never caught up. We're never, never, ever, ever Is there a point where there's not ten things that need to be done. It's just a matter, I call it just putting out fires. We spent the first year just frigging putting out fires in one farm or another. How we said could we just keep everybody on the property, like, if you just don't leave.
[01:14:33]
>> Luanne Hoverman: [LAUGH]
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: Gosh and that comes from chasing cows, we've chased cows. We had a Shelby farm 200 acres out there and that was up along the Broad River. And there was not a fence on it when we first got the property. And the guy who had farmed it before said they never go across the river.
[01:14:53]
And we were like okay cool like forty nine cows out there. And Tanner went over there one day and he's like, Shelly, I cannot find cows. And I said, Well just go down where they've been hanging out by a river down there and just call them. And keep looking.
[01:15:10]
You're gonna have to find them. And so he called and called and called and called. He called me and he said, and he called me, and I could hear him in the background coming. And I said where in the heck were they? He said, they've been on the other side of that river and I mean a long way.
[01:15:26]
And it was not our property on the other side of the river. I don't know what was over there, nothing but woods and then a road some other distance back. The whole damn heard had just been out there. It was crazy. So we had to go build fence.
[01:15:38]
Chase cows up and down Broad River with woman and this deep in the water with my phone in one hand up here trying to get them to go out of the river back up. And then I'm gonna have to go cut a fence, and get them to jump the fence to go back onto our property.
[01:15:59]
That's the kind of thing that will wear you out. So there's a lot of athleticism involved in keeping cows and being a farmer that's something I did not anticipate. I don't think people realize how you gotta keep physically and be strong.
>> Luanne Hoverman: Do you have any unique experiences from being a woman farmer?
[01:16:25]
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: Well there's a lot of doubters at the beginning when I was doing this because, mostly with older people. Most people in our generation and younger see no reason why women shouldn't be doing this or couldn't. They also most of them have zero to no experience with farming also.
[01:16:47]
All the old man farmers, which are the only farmers I know, the old ones are all men. They were completely befuddled, you could just see the look on their face. They did not know what to say, or how to talk to me or anything. I mean, I used to speak at the local Cattlemen's Association, and it's almost like, I think they did not believe me.
[01:17:13]
A couple of them, I remember, they would say, they would look at me and be like, so what do you do? And I'd say I pretty much took everything that anything that needs to be done. That's what I do. And they just furrow their brow and kind of shake their head.
[01:17:30]
And I was like I don't even know where to start. I mean what am I gonna tell them? [LAUGH] You know I'm like, whatever you do, that's what I'm doing here. And they're like, just can't. They've never, and that's just been the limit of their experience. So there was that.
[01:17:51]
Had a processor issue one time. I think that was more of he was just a sexist to everybody. Not so much that I was in catle. But what I have found is that people spend even just, a minute talking to me realize that I know what I am talking about.
[01:18:11]
And I don't have any self doubt about that anymore. Nine times out of ten when I'm talking to other cattlemen, if they seem a little bit, because obviously a woman who knows what I'm talking about, usually they're the one that doesn't know what's really going on. They don't know enough to know that I do know what I'm talking about.
[01:18:33]
So, but yeah, that's only for some of the older guys that's that an issue. I wouldn't mind being 6'4" and 280 a lot of days when it comes down to roll out of the ground bail of hay. Dad and I, he's a skinny old man, middle aged woman so we'd spend more time than I would like around with equipment we can't move or we're having to do all these other steps to get something accomplished where if we were just a big strong man we could just pick it up and hook it up.
[01:19:07]
Or I have to wait for my young, strong buy come over and finish the task in the evening. So I could be more efficient at some stuff I need to get done. But yeah, and I don't really have an interest in driving a tractor for eight hours in circles anymore, too old for that.
[01:19:28]
But that's not male female, that's mostly an age thing. [LAUGH] So it's certainly a liability to be smaller.
>> Luanne Hoverman: Last question, Where do you see the future of the farm?
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: I think dad and I, as long as we are still here and able, which I expect to be long time we'll keep doing this.
[01:19:53]
And we, I'm don't expect to get any bigger, I've already done that. We've done it a couple a different ways enough to know what we want to do and what we don't want to do. We might sell differently. At the end of the month, not having to go to the farmer's markets if I could just sell quarters and halves from the store here that would be ideal and that would be a lot less work.
[01:20:12]
As much as I enjoy the markets, the continuity of them, the every single Saturday no matter what all year round kinda wears on the family. Kinda just tired, it's just a long day, long drive. And then the only thing I think would change would be is if, once we're no longer able to do it, if one of the kids wants to take over.
[01:20:38]
They can do whatever they want. I always tell them, you don't have to keep doing this. You could turn this into frigging GMO soybeans if you want, I don't care. It's just whatever. You could raise 10,000 hogs or have a humongous vegetable garden. I don't care. It's land.
[01:20:53]
You could grown hemp. Whatever you want to do is fine with me. Figure out whoever is in charge and they should be able to make choices. But I've always said that [COUGH] dad will be doing this until he's dead. And then, he'll be 100 and I'll be 75, and he'll be like Shelly come on.
[01:21:10]
Let's go get those cows.
>> Luanne Hoverman: [LAUGH]
>> Shelley Crawford Egan: Let's get out of here. The answer is no. It's just, we'll always do that. So, no matter how old I get, I will always have to awlays be helping him.
>> Luanne Hoverman: [LAUGH]
>> Luanne Hoverman: Mm-hm, that was it.
Off Grid in Color - Chantel Johnson
Chantel Johnson was born in 1987 and initially planned a career in social work, obtaining her Masters of Social Work from the University of Washington. However, after the tragic death of her brother in Chicago due to gun violence, Chantel turned to agriculture and homesteading as a method of healing her grief. With no formal education in agriculture, Chantel learned from those around her, and in 2017 decided that she wanted to supplement her lifestyle by raising livestock. She reached out to the farming community to see if anyone had land they would be willing to offer Chantel so that she could begin her farming career. Luckily, her community were more than willing to support her and she established herself in Salisbury, North Carolina. She called her farm, Off Grid In Color, and began raising pigs, chickens and turkeys, while also creating outreach events for her community. Chantel has a passion for public speaking and has participated in many talks covering her experiences and homesteading. She aims to create a agriculture wellness center for those in need of healing, and also works as a certified doula.
| Time | Subject |
| 0:00:07 | Interview begins |
| 0:00:35 | Entered into agriculutre in 2016 and defines herself as a homesteader |
| 0:01:18 | Decided to fund her lifestyle by farming livestock |
| 0:01:52 | Livestock she raises |
| 0:02:11 | Discusses the death of her younger brother and how that influenced her to become a homesteader |
| 0:03:46 | The elements that she believed factored into her brothers death |
| 0:05:43 | Typical day on the farm at the height of the season |
| 0:07:47 | Using social media to market her farm |
| 0:08:07 | Discusses amount of animals she raises at one time |
| 0:08:32 | Does a majority of the work on her farm alone and the role of the community in her operations |
| 0:09:02 | BREAK - to let her dog into the house |
| 0:09:22 | How she engages with the community and how they contribute to the farm |
| 0:10:10 | Use of social media and her goal to create an agriculture wellness center |
| 0:11:31 | How she came up with the idea of her "community farm" and the programs she runs to promote this |
| 0:13:31 | Popularity of homesteading |
| 0:14:21 | Previous knowledge of agriculture prior to being introduced to homesteading |
| 0:15:18 | Importance of education in her community outreach |
| 0:17:34 | How she found the land she is currently using for her farm |
| 0:18:12 | Issues she has faced in her farming |
| 0:19:37 | Use of government grants and recently being awarded a Rural Advancement Foundation International (RAFI) grant |
| 0:20:17 | Crowdfunding from the community to help financially support her farm |
| 0:21:58 | How she processes her meat with the help of volunteers |
| 0:22:30 | Discusses her largest expenses in running her farm |
| 0:24:02 | The use of non-GMO feed for her animals and why she does not use organic feed |
| 0:28:45 | How she sells her products to the public |
| 0:29:42 | Selling at the farmers market |
| 0:30:31 | Organizing a farm-to-table dinner |
| 0:31:11 | Difficulties she has faced getting her product to the market |
| 0:32:24 | Urbanization and growth of surrounding areas effects on her farm |
| 0:34:04 | Moving from being a solitary farmer to being more active in her community and in changes in local agriculture |
| 0:35:42 | Ways she deviates from conventional farming methods in her small farm |
| 0:37:03 | Experiences with the volatile weather in Charlotte |
| 0:38:14 | Obstacles faced by black and brown farmers |
| 0:39:09 | Organizations focused on serving minority farmers |
| 0:40:24 | Events she has created that intertwine agriculture and community outreach |
| 0:42:22 | Other farmers and individuals who are utilizing agriculture in their community outreach |
| 0:43:35 | Misconceptions by the public on the prices of her produce |
| 0:45:49 | Misconceptions by the public about homesteading and living off grid |
| 0:47:55 | Affects of larger coporations selling off-season produce on small, independent farming |
| 0:51:33 | Ways farmers can bridge the disconnect between the public and their food |
| 0:52:22 | The physical toll of farming and her plans to sustain her farm long term |
| 0:54:29 | Dealing with the environmental impact of her farming |
| 0:55:02 | Advice for those interested in farming |
| 0:57:34 | End of Interview |
[00:00:07]
>> Laura Burgess: So hello my name is Nora Burgess. And I'm a graduate student at UNC Charlotte. The date is the third of April, 2019. And the time is 11:21 in the morning. I'm here with Chantelle Johnson at Off Grid In Color farm. Hello, Chantelle.
>> Chantelle Johnson: Hi.
>> Laura Burgess: So I'm going to start off with my first question.
[00:00:24]
How long have you been farming?
>> Chantelle Johnson: Good question.
>> Chantelle Johnson: I got into agriculture in general, fall of 2016. And then I kinda classed myself as a homesteader. And the way I like to identify homesteader is someone who lives a lifestyle of self sufficiency that might include raising animals, having a garden, doing food preservation, zero waste reduce, reuse, recycle kind of things, caring about the environment.
[00:01:03]
Kind of doing as much for themselves without the assistance of external resources. And so I did that for about a year until I realized that I needed to find a way to fund my lifestyle. And I decided to fund my lifestyle through a business, cuz that's another part of being self sufficient is how do you generate your own income.
[00:01:26]
And I did that by farming livestock. And so I got into that I would say, 2017. So it's been two years, or three years in general, going on three years in general as far as just being in the agriculture system.
>> Laura Burgess: Okay, so what kind of livestock do you raise?
[00:01:50]
>> Chantelle Johnson: I currently raise chicken, meat birds, they call them broilers, turkeys, and hogs, pigs. [LAUGH]
>> Laura Burgess: [LAUGH] Okay, so what influenced you to kind of go into agriculture and become a homesteader?
>> Chantelle Johnson: Back in 2014 my youngest brother was shot several times in Chicago. And he was paralyzed from the neck down.
[00:02:25]
And suffered for 15 months. And in August of 2015 he passed over into another world of existence. And it was in my grief for my brother, I felt that the system played a big role in the death for my brother. Like Chicago is really known, in this day and age right now as being as a city full of violence and things like that.
[00:02:54]
And I think one reason that violence exists in poor communities, particularly poor black communities, is because of lack of resources and opportunities. My brother kinda fell victim to selling drugs and being a gang member and kinda living that lifestyle, which made that choice, that lifestyle an easy choice when you don't have resources and opportunities.
[00:03:16]
And here I am chugging my way through Chicago, leaving poverty, going to these expensive universities, getting these degrees. And my brothers are back home suffering. And I'm trying to figure out why we have the same opportunities, why they having such a hard time? So I got into agriculture because I thought about what were the systems that played into his death?
[00:03:42]
The year he passed away, there was the closing of a number of Chicago public schools. The day he got shot, he was picked up by a police officer because he didn't sign up for a gun possession registry cuz he was in prison a year before at 17. He was young at the time.
[00:04:05]
17 in prison, died at 19. So he was supposed to sign up for a gun registry and he didn't do it. One would think that before you be released for prison that they would sign you up for those things. But instead, they put barriers in place, like you need to get to your parole officer.
[00:04:21]
Knowing you just got out of prison, you probably don't have any way to get there. And so he was picked up, and that's the same day he got shot. Also, he was in a nursing home, just the poor care and things like that when your family, you don't have money.
[00:04:35]
And so I just looked at all these things that played into his death, and I said, you know what? The government and corporations don't give a **** about people, especially brown and black people. Here I am with a quarter million dollar education for my private college I went to my fancy university master's degree and I've got, for what I'm at this really good cushion research job at Durham at the time, and I quit.
[00:05:08]
I got depressed and I met someone who was homesteading, and I just got lost in the woods. And that's how I got into it, just by way of surviving the impacts of gun violence, and trying to find a way to deal with the complexities of that, and just heal my heart.
[00:05:26]
And I just got lost in the woods.
>> Laura Burgess: Wow.
>> Chantelle Johnson: Mm-hm.
>> Laura Burgess: That's amazing. Can you describe a typical day on the farm for you?
>> Chantelle Johnson: A typical day at the farm for me at the height of the season, let's just say, I am up I get up relatively early, but I don't go outside right away like typical farmers.
[00:05:53]
People always ask me, Chantelle, how early do you get up? I get up early, but I'm not outside with the animals early. At the height of the summer I'm up around 6, doing some meditating, some writing, some reading. I'm trying to be out with the animals between 7:30 and 8.
[00:06:08]
I'm typically out singing and talking to the animals cuz I really believe in just caring and nurturing them, and honoring their life because they will be sacrificed for meat. And so I usually start with my meat birds because those are the hardest to do, and moving around pens, and watering, and giving feed, and sometimes I might have to move their fence.
[00:06:35]
I do a pasture rotation here, so that means that I move the animals around the land so they don't destroy the earth, and so they always have access to fresh bugs and grubs and grass and things like that. And then I might run off and hang out with the pigs for a little while.
[00:06:52]
Those are my favorite. Get some rub on them and see them grow bigger and bigger every day, and then I might go collect some eggs. I have eggs, I don't really sell them, but I have them for myself, and for folks who come to the farm and visit, I'll give them eggs.
[00:07:06]
So I always go count them to make sure they're still here cuz they're just kinda out free in the world. [LAUGH] So are raccoons and opossums.
>> Laura Burgess: [LAUGH]
>> Chantelle Johnson: And then if it's turkey season then I go work with them too, and when they're bigger.
>> Chantelle Johnson: [LAUGH] This is my dog.
[00:07:26]
I'm gonna let her stay outside cuz she'll come in and destroy.
>> Laura Burgess: No worries.
>> Chantelle Johnson: So something I'll go out, and I'll go work with the turkeys, and those are probably my second favorite animals cuz they're just so big and so cool and acted pretty intelligent. So that's a pretty typical, just working with animals.
[00:07:43]
And then I spend a lot of time on social media showing people what's going on on the farm, posting about new events. Doing some branding and some marketing and some advertising, going out in a community and doing various events and things like that.
>> Laura Burgess: Brilliant, so how many of these animals do you raise at one time?
[00:08:05]
>> Chantelle Johnson: At one time. I would say at the height, currently right now I only have a couple of pigs and a A handful egg layers but at the height of the season because we're able right now. We'll just get into, at the height of the season at one time I will probably have 200 chickens.
[00:08:20]
60 turkeys, and probably 6 pigs at a time.
>> Laura Burgess: So do you have any help in terms of what label with you. Or is it just you run this?
>> Chantelle Johnson: I do about 90% of the work on my own.
>> Laura Burgess: Okay.
>> Chantelle Johnson: When it comes to getting my animals to the processors, that's when I call in reinforcements to come help me.
[00:08:41]
I don't have any equipment, my farm, I call it a community farm, is I either run it but the community supports it through their labor, time, money and things like that.
>> Laura Burgess: Do you want to take a break for a second?
>> Chantelle Johnson: Yes.
>> Laura Burgess: Yeah, okay. Okay, we're back from our pause.
[00:09:06]
And Chantel's dog joined us and so you mentioned that you describe this as a community farm, so do you have volunteers coming in or do you have events with the community, how do you kind of promote that?
>> Chantelle Johnson: Yes, I do a combination of all those things, I do a lot of community events.
[00:09:26]
Some are paid some are not where people can either volunteer to help the flow of that event or just come to any of the free events that I have. Also, when there's the hottest season I have people come out and volunteer to help with some. The animals that need to be moved, especially during processing time.
[00:09:49]
>> Laura Burgess: Okay brilliant and I just wondered you use of social media because that's kind of an interesting area that you wouldn't think that farms kind of utilize but things uses kind of a very modern style farm. So how do you use that kind of for your operations and your promoting?
[00:10:07]
>> Chantelle Johnson: Social media for off-breed and color is essential. [LAUGH] This community based farm, if you will, was born out of social media. Just by telling harsh stories like, my gosh, I had to process the bird because it was injured to this is value my strawberry jam to helping women think about their periods.
[00:10:34]
[LAUGH]
>> Laura Burgess: [LAUGH]
>> Chantelle Johnson: I try to cross the gamut, because what I have here, what I'm trying to develop is a Agriculture Wellness Center. And I like to describe to people it's a home sanctuary for health and wellness. And I want people to come here and I want them to feel peace, and that they can find peace here through various ways.
[00:10:53]
So I use social media a lot to kind of push that vision, to push that idea to connect people closer to their meat. So, if people come out and meet your meat. I encourage people to meet their local farmers and stay connected.
>> Laura Burgess: Awesome. So, so you say that this farm, to you and it's purpose is more than just a farm it's like a wellness center.
[00:11:23]
Where do you get the idea and how, what kind of like programs are you running that kind of?
>> Chantelle Johnson: Right. I just wanted to, it was born of the idea of a homestead. Which is a lifestyle self sufficiency. And so I really wanted to keep that concept as I went forward to developing a farm.
[00:11:45]
So the farm is a part of vision as far as having good food. And I do that primarily through raising animals. Using pasture raising tactics. Another thing that I do, I offer Doula services, postpartum and birth Doula services. So, beyond the fact that I want people to eat right and plant good seeds in the world, I want them to also plant good seeds in their wombs.
[00:12:11]
So I help women birth like a boss. [LAUGH] And I also do community outreach. So right now my farm is on the speaking tour, and I'm going around and talking about the story I share earlier with my brother Richie who passed away. So talking about the impacts of gun violence to farming, and how did I get there.
[00:12:29]
And how to help people get through their own pains and traumas and turning this a power for themselves. So I do a lot of community outreach in that and community events from farm to table dinners to doing retreats. I have people coming out here and learning how to homestead.
[00:12:46]
The real Easter egg hunts with kids come out and they gets do a real Easter egg hunt and go get real eggs [LAUGH].
>> Laura Burgess: [LAUGH]
>> Chantelle Johnson: Really trying to take some, cool things that we already doing a community and giving it that self sufficiency twist like they say, so I do a number of things like that.
[00:13:04]
And so those three different components, farm raised goods, Doula services, a community outreach is what I'm using to kind of develop this homestead sanctuary for health and wellness.
>> Laura Burgess: Okay, so growing expanding on this homestead is that kind of a very popular concept in North Carolina, have you noticed is there other homestead programs are you aware of or something like that?
[00:13:26]
Or is it any way you've experienced it anywhere else that you've lived?
>> Chantelle Johnson: I found homestead here in North Carolina, but homesteading is all across America and the world possibly. It's becoming a more of a trendy thing now, everyone wants to homestead. Now we've got urban homesteads popping up, and rural homesteads popping up.
[00:13:45]
So it's definitely something that's going on really big right now. It's not really big and popular in brown and black communities, and I think as a black woman I'm trying to tap into that. And show people that anyone, everyone can homestead.
>> Laura Burgess: Okay, so I wanna talk very truthfully about how you came into homesteading?
[00:14:07]
So did you have any interest in agriculture prior to meeting your ex-partner who kind of introduced you to homesteading? Did you have any ideas about agriculture?
>> Chantelle Johnson: Up to the point before my brother was shot and eventually died and before meeting my partner, beyond just trying to eat healthy, that was the extent of my desire of wanting to be in agriculture.
[00:14:36]
If it wasn't for that situation with my brother and then me meeting my ex-partner I don't think I would have been, I don't think I would be a farmer now and homesteader right now
>> Laura Burgess: Really, okay and so do you use that the fact that create kind of a lot of people who are in that traditional agriculture there's a kind of born into this like multi generational farming, and do you kind of utilize this your own experiences with not kind of growing up around agriculture to shape what you're doing here?
[00:15:08]
Because like education, for example, like is that a big part? I mean, you say you do a lot of outreach in the community is education of the part of that for you?
>> Chantelle Johnson: Huge part of them, I'm going to some schools this week, I'm going to a Environmental class, they're talking about home setting.
[00:15:24]
Cuz we think about the environment, homesteading fits right into that we try to think about how do you be self-sufficient and how do you do that in conjunction with the earth? It's all about science. And career day, one of my biggest things about just farming in general is that 1% of the American population when it comes to occupation, 1% of the occupations are farmers, just 1%.
[00:15:50]
And if you wanna break down to how many of those are folks of color, it's even smaller and black people, smaller and black women, even smaller. [LAUGH] And black women who are livestock farmers even smaller. And so I think education is a huge part of it and one talk I did in Minnesota the professor said I'd like to think What you're doing is a reversal migration.
[00:16:14]
If you think about history and think about the Great Migration from the south, black people from the south going to the north and west in a time of industrialization. And finding jobs and trying to run away from racism and finding it in a new way in the cities.
[00:16:29]
And a lot of people, those things that they learned from slavery and Jim Crow, farming was a huge part of it. But with the Great Migration, we lost a lot of land and things like that, right? And now I'm returning back to the South. Up to this point, before this, I didn't know anything about farming.
[00:16:47]
I got my master's degree in social work. I was trained to be a social worker. To go out and influence policies and help social work organizations run more smoothly. I never thought that I would use that degree for farming, doing social farming and things like that. And it's been difficult not having land of my own, even currently I don't have land of my own, but I know the importance and value of having land.
[00:17:15]
And that's something that I would like to own soon one day so I can be able to pass that along to my nieces and nephews and children one day.
>> Laura Burgess: So you said that the land that you're using isn't, you don't own it. So how did you kind of come to use this parcel of land?
[00:17:34]
>> Chantelle Johnson: Yeah, I was looking for land to use, pretty much, and just the community came forth, and someone said, hey, I have some land that you can farm on. And I think that's one amazing way that you can enter into the agriculture field is just by asking. Lots of farmers want help, [LAUGH].
[00:17:52]
>> Laura Burgess: [LAUGH]
>> Chantelle Johnson: So one way to get into it is find a farmer who wants help and helping them achieve their goals and being honest about what you want so you can achieve your own too.
>> Laura Burgess: Okay then, so what are some of the challenges, or strengths, that you found farming in the greater Charlotte or the Piedmont area?
[00:18:11]
>> Chantelle Johnson: Some of the biggest challenges I have is just land opportunity and access. That's just huge, just being able to find and afford land has been a big issue. Farming without equipment has been, I don't own a trailer, I don't own a truck, and somehow I'm able to raise all these animals.
[00:18:31]
[LAUGH] That means I have good community building but it still makes it hard to do things on my own accord with air quotes around that. When you don't have your own things you gotta kind of wait on people to help you out. So just having access to land, opportunity, and equipment that's needed, and sometimes cash flow can be an issue.
[00:18:56]
I'm choosing not to really tap into a lot of government assistance and loans and things. Because I think one issue that farmers have is debt, and that's something that I want to avoid. Which means that growth is slow for me, and I'm okay with that. [LAUGH]
>> Laura Burgess: [LAUGH] Fair enough.
[00:19:16]
So talking about kind of how you mitigate the losses, so for your cash flow, and you say that you don't use any government kind of resources, like loans. What are your kind of takes on these grants that are available? Or is there any community support that has helped subsidize your?
[00:19:37]
>> Chantelle Johnson: Yes, I do apply to some grants. I am a recent recipient of the RAFI Grant, which is funds that come from the Tobacco Trust, just awarded that. And those funds will be used specifically for my poultry operation to do added value poultry. So instead of having chicken breasts, and chicken wings, and whole birds, I will also have chicken sausage and ground chicken [LAUGH] and things like that.
[00:20:02]
So I do at times if I feel like the grant is something that's not imposing on my liberties [LAUGH] I will apply for it. But for things that I need, I crowdfund them from the community.
>> Laura Burgess: Okay.
>> Chantelle Johnson: So I do a fundraiser, or I do an event, or things like that.
[00:20:22]
And I always try to offer something that the community gets in exchange for whatever it is that I'm asking for.
>> Laura Burgess: Can you give me an example of?
>> Chantelle Johnson: Yes, I had a number of pigs that needed to be processed and I did not have enough money to get them processed.
[00:20:43]
And I also didn't have enough money to store the meat. So I needed, I think approximately $2,000 to get the hogs processed and to get freezers and things like and needed somewhere to store [LAUGH] the freezers. So I gave people a number of ways that they could participate.
[00:21:02]
One was through this program called Credibles, which people pretty much it's paying for your food, you get credit for your food. So say you get $600, you'll get your $600 back in food plus a $100. So I had a number of people sign up for that kinda program.
[00:21:22]
They pick how much money they wanted to donate, and then that dictated how much they got back in food plus some. So some folks did that or I offered discounts to them on some of the food programs. They're like, I have a chicken CSA, if you donate this amount of money, then I'll discount this amount on your turkey or on your future pork, or things like that.
[00:21:44]
So doing more bartering and things like that. If you give this, then I will give that, kind of things.
>> Laura Burgess: Okay then, so how do you process the meats, how do you do it if you don't have the equipment?
>> Chantelle Johnson: I borrow a truck and a trailer or have someone who has a truck and a trailer to take my animals to the processors.
[00:22:05]
So I have someone who will help me take my pigs to the butcher and then to the poultry processor, too. I know how to process poultry. [LAUGH] But I don't have the equipment yet. I do now have the funds to buy the equipment. I'm excited about that.
>> Laura Burgess: So what are some of your largest expenses kind of running this farm?
[00:22:28]
>> Chantelle Johnson: The largest expenses are probably the animal feed for the hogs. I spend lots of money on feed for the hogs, they eat a lot. I think it costs me about right now $1,000 to raise a hog from start to finish.
>> Laura Burgess: So is there a specific reason, just cuz of the pure amount, or is there, do you special feed, like are you farming organically, or-
[00:22:51]
>> Chantelle Johnson: So I use non-GMO feed, I think the reason why that number sounds scary to people is cuz I also track my time. A lot of farmers don't track their time, so my time is billed into that $1,000. It's not all feed or all animal, it's also my time in labor.
[00:23:06]
I gotta make some money somehow and I charge myself $25 an hour. So anytime I go out there and interact with the animals, it's $25 and hour for me to do that. And that number is built in, my time and labor, the cost of the non-GMO feed which I use which is a bit of a specialty.
[00:23:23]
I could use conventional feed but I'm promoting that the feed is non-GMO so that costs a little bit more. So the animal, the specialty feed, my time and labor, and the cost of getting the animal processed, too. So that's gas in that $1,000. That's paying someone to take my hogs is in $1,000.
[00:23:43]
Getting the animal processed is in that $1,000. So that $1,000 is accounting for a lot, and that's what it takes for one pig, at least right now.
>> Laura Burgess: Okay, so your use of non-GMO feed, what is your take on kind of the attitude towards non-GMO versus GMO?
>> Chantelle Johnson: Yeah, so I think there's three levels of feed that you can use for your animals.
[00:24:07]
There's conventional, there's non-GMO, and then there's organic. GMO means that the seed has been modified. And the way the crop is grown, part of using pesticides and things like that. Non-GMO means that the seed was not genetically modified. But that doesn't necessarily mean that the farmer didn't use pesticides and things to grow that crop.
[00:24:31]
And then organic means it's a not genetically modified seed and that the farmer took some special time to not use those more harmful chemicals to spray. They still spray, people.
>> Laura Burgess: [LAUGH]
>> Chantelle Johnson: They just have some that's just maybe not as harmful. And so I chose to go with the middle ground, because I do think about the cost as far as actual money spent on a product.
[00:24:59]
And so I could have used organic, and my pork chops would not be $10 a pound, they'd probably be 12. Right so thinking about that, and then my bottom line too. So I choose the [INAUDIBLE] because I thought I do wanna think about what I'm putting in my animals.
[00:25:15]
But just like if you have kids or some like that, you make concessions. Like I would love to have apples, but I can afford applesauce right now.
>> Laura Burgess: [LAUGH]
>> Chantelle Johnson: So, that's kind of the road that I took.
>> Laura Burgess: Yeah, when you kind of expand more and gain more income, do you think you will then go on and kind of start doing organic or is that not something that interests you?
[00:25:37]
>> Chantelle Johnson: It's not something that interests me because what is organic really? We have organic Doritos. So If we have organic Doritos, does it really matter if I'm using organic feed for my animals?
>> Laura Burgess: Yeah.
>> Chantelle Johnson: So that's not something that's really important to me unless I was trying to become an organic farm and do those kinds of things.
[00:25:56]
Which I have some issues with that, too.
>> Laura Burgess: Could you expand on why?
>> Chantelle Johnson: Yeah, so organic farming is difficult for a small farmers or even me. I consider myself to be a tiny farmer. I'm not out here with a hundred hogs or a thousand chickens and like 200 turkeys.
[00:26:16]
That sounds like a lot, but that's not a lot for a small farmer. And me, I just got a couple of, like, the most I might raise this year in hogs is probably ten hogs. I probably won't raise more than 400 chickens and probably 60 turkeys. That's a really tiny farm.
[00:26:30]
I can't even get, at my feed mill in order to get the discount on the hog feed, which is $11 a bag for a 50 pound bag. But if I want to get it $10 a bag, I would have to buy 40 bags of feed at a time.
[00:26:46]
I don't need that, [LAUGH] and plus I don't have that amount of money at a time to just throw on hog feed.
>> Laura Burgess: [LAUGH]
>> Chantelle Johnson: So, if you think about it like that, then I definitely can't afford an organic certification that costs, I don't know, thousands of dollars.
[00:27:04]
And then, they want a percentage of your organic sales, right? So not only are you paying to get the cert, which also can take a number of years for you to get your cert, it costs thousand of dollars and every year, they want a percentage of your organic sales.
[00:27:23]
No, I'm not doing that. And at this stage it's not worth it because I'm not producing, I'm not a high producing farm. I focus more on quality and education. And so it just doesn't make sense for me to get something like that.
>> Laura Burgess: That makes complete sense. Do you have anyone that comes to you and asks if your hogs or your meat is organic?
[00:27:45]
>> Chantelle Johnson: All the time, all the time.
>> Laura Burgess: What do they do when you say, do you explain to them?
>> Chantelle Johnson: Just like I just told you.
>> Laura Burgess: Yeah.
>> Chantelle Johnson: And then they are like that makes sense. Because a lot of people don't think about what does it mean to be organic.
[00:27:55]
Right, then you tell them the steps you have to take to be organic. And then you talk about, you give them real numbers. I tell people I'm very free with how much it costs me to run things because I want people to know that the true cost of small or tiny farming, and what that means.
[00:28:12]
And why Walmart can sell you a whole chicken for 92 cents a pound and why I can't. And why you should question that 92 cents a pound chicken as well. And then when you put in those kind of perspectives, there's people like, that makes sense. Can we get one of your $6 a pound chickens please?
[00:28:35]
>> Laura Burgess: [LAUGH] Yeah, so selling your products, like how do you do it and to who?
>> Chantelle Johnson: Yes, I primarily sell right now through the Salisbury Rural Farmer's Market. But I try to really push more wholesale buys from individual customers. I really try to get people to buy in bulk to save more and also it helps me with cash flow.
[00:29:01]
>> Laura Burgess: [LAUGH] Of course.
>> Chantelle Johnson: So I sell the farmers market and I sell individually to customers and then I might do special events where I go and take meat to special events. And then when I have events on the farm I sell products there too. So those are the three main streams.
[00:29:15]
>> Laura Burgess: So who do you kind like, is it just individuals, like who do you target for like wholesale? Like do you do it to any restaurants or anything like that?
>> Chantelle Johnson: I don't really work with restaurants or store, anything like that. You know it would be nice, but that's not, I really just like to sell directly to customers.
[00:29:34]
>> Laura Burgess: Okay, so what have been your experiences of selling your product at the farmer's market that you use?
>> Chantelle Johnson: It's been great. I was really well received from the community. Honestly, I think cuz I was just a different face. Honestly I think it was because I was just a black woman and people thought that to be fascinating.
[00:29:53]
It took a lot of people to realize that it was actually my farm. People was asking me who farms it, is this? Or, shocked about that. But I think I've been really well received and really well supported by a community and I've been told a number of times how good my meat is.
[00:30:10]
>> Laura Burgess: That's great. So,
>> Laura Burgess: You talk about this farm to table that you do in some of your events. I mean, you don't, you say you don't sell to restaurants, so how do you do that with your events?
>> Chantelle Johnson: Yeah, so, a couple times a year, usually to honor the winter or summer solstice, I do, like, a farm-to-table dinner.
[00:30:36]
I supply the meat. And then I work with local farmers to get the produce and things like that. And it's just a party. We just come out here and people are just paying for an experience to be on the farm and just have a farm to table meal.
[00:30:47]
I promoted on social media like I do everything.
>> Laura Burgess: Mm-hmm.
>> Chantelle Johnson: Yeah, people just come out. Just have a good time.
>> Laura Burgess: Ooh goodness.
>> Chantelle Johnson: [LAUGH]
>> Laura Burgess: So
>> Laura Burgess: What difficulties have you experienced kind of producing and getting your products to the market? If you have experienced any difficulties, I mean, other than-
[00:31:07]
>> Chantelle Johnson: Yeah, like right now, the farmer's market starts April 14th in Salisbury, and all I have right now is pork. I have chicken, chicks come in April 16th, but they won't be available for purchase until June. And a reason for that is just not having the funds at the time to buy the chicks when I needed them to have it.
[00:31:27]
Not being able to store enough in my freezers. I could have raised 200 at the end of last year, put them in the freezer and had it ready for this year. But just not having that cash flow and a capacity to do that. So just those things, always worried about if I have enough product.
[00:31:43]
Being able to get the product ready and staff of people so people don't forget that I sell meat. So I'm always running against you know how you know how can i keep the meat going with with what I have.
>> Laura Burgess: So your experiences within the kind of this location, how has its proximity to uptown Charlotte or other cities kind of impacted your farm?
[00:32:09]
Do you think kind of the grown urbanization of like this area Is contributing positively to your operations or is it kind of a negative impact?
>> Chantelle Johnson: That's a great question. I have mixed feelings about it. So Salisbury is what, maybe 35 minutes north of just the very beginning of Charlotte.
[00:32:32]
So it's an easy drive. Salisbury is situated right snugly in between Charlotte, Gainsborough and western Salem. So we have the ability to kind of tap into some really awesome urban settings. Also Charlotte is expanding greatly. Either pushing people out who can't afford to live there or bringing people in who can and now it's like want to be like in a cool city in the South kinda thing.
[00:32:59]
And there's also a lot of development happening in Salisbury there because of it. Which means I'm happy for one because it means more customers for me, more people interested in the local food movement. Also scary cuz that means the land is being developed and not being reserved. So I have mixed feelings about it.
[00:33:16]
[LAUGH] You know in some respects as a business owner, as someone who's like looking at trends. I'm like I think Salisbury's gonna increase its population by like 25% over the next five to ten years. That's amazing. Like yes. But it's like, where are these people gonna live? Like right now, I live in Salisbury on the city limits, right?
[00:33:35]
So I have the ability to farm the way they do. But if they decide that this would be more Salisbury Central, what about my farm, right? So I have those things on my mind all the time.
>> Laura Burgess: Yeah, so is there any kind of local cooperative opportunities with other farms that you are involved with, or that you're aware of?
[00:34:03]
>> Chantelle Johnson: So when I first got started, I kinda stuck to myself. I just wanted to just heal my soul and just raise good food. But I realized that I had a bigger voice, I had a bigger purpose than just that. And so I've been trying to connect with more farmers, and not just any farmers but more black and brown farmers, I feel like that's really important to me.
[00:34:27]
And now Salisbury is in the process of developing a food council policy which I think is dope and I'm a part of that planning committee for that. To be a part of just really bringing together the various food groups in the county. So we can have a hub and really support each other around the work we do.
[00:34:45]
So I'm super excited about having a food policy council. I been trying to get myself into more conferences and things like that. Because everything I learned was self taught through someone else, YouTube or just working with other farmers. And now I'm kinda in a point where I really wanna just learn more a little bit more traditionally.
[00:35:05]
So go on some more farms, farmer conferences and workshops that really tighten up my skills, I've been doing that lot too. So those are different ways that are kinda connect with other farmers and getting more connected with the agriculture system here.
>> Laura Burgess: Okay, so you are trying to kinda gain some of these more traditional skills to kinda, as you say, tighten up your operations here.
[00:35:32]
Are there any ways that you are aware you deviate from those traditional ways that you think work better or work better for you?
>> Chantelle Johnson: Well, when it comes to traditional farming, hogs are raised in the building, right? My hogs are raised outside. [LAUGH] Which means that my hogs are more susceptible to, maybe, the inclement weather, like the hurricane that happened here last year.
[00:35:59]
My chickens are more susceptible to getting sick, and things like that. So, when it comes to conventional farming versus how I raise my animals, there's a huge difference! It would be really difficult to raise animals I raise at the capacity that we produce meat in this country. It would be almost impossible.
[00:36:20]
Because people like meat, and they want it quick and they want it cheap. So that comes at a price. Now do I think that we can raise more animals to feed our country this way? Yeah, we totally can. That means people have to eat less meat though. They'd have to be okay with that.
[00:36:35]
Pay a little bit more for it. So I do think that I do deviate from some of the conventional farmers so far as raising my animals outdoor and maybe spend a little bit more on my feed.
>> Laura Burgess: Okay, so you mentioned the weather. So how have you been kind of dealing with this kind of very temperamental weather that kind of the area is experiencing?
[00:37:02]
>> Chantelle Johnson: Yeah, when a hurricane happened last September people called Chantal, are you okay, are your animals safe, what are you gonna do? I was like, first of all calm down, I'm not on the coast. That was a good thing. And two, because I am a tiny farm and I believe in the power of quality over quantity, [LAUGH] my animals are fine.
[00:37:24]
The pigs knew exactly what to do better than I knew what to do with them, cuz they didn't have to compete a lot for resources.
>> Laura Burgess: [LAUGH]
>> Chantelle Johnson: [LAUGH] And things like that. So I think because I don't raise a lot of animals at once, that when those kind of things happen, I'm able to do something about it.
[00:37:40]
Even if I wanted to process them I could without freaking out about it.
>> Laura Burgess: Okay.
>> Chantelle Johnson: So that's how I dealt with that.
>> Laura Burgess: So I'm just gonna kind of rope back cuz you mentioned that kind of when we were talking about kinda cooperatives, you wanted to kind of connect more with brown and black farmers.
[00:37:58]
So could you speak to a little bit of their experiences, or what you've experienced as well, in this industry or in this area?
>> Chantelle Johnson: Well black farmers tend to have a more difficult time getting loans and things like that and more when it comes to getting loans. Just in general in his country, black and brown people are more likely to be denied a loan than white folks.
[00:38:25]
And so just hearing those stories, the challenges that they have getting equipment and land and just the things that they need. Once again, I'm not on those scales because I did some things that I heard. And just learning from some of their challenges and how they try, how they get around it or how they work to get some of the things that they have done.
[00:38:48]
Did I answer your question?
>> Laura Burgess: Yes, That's fine. Cuz
>> Laura Burgess: Okay so, you said you kind of connect. Is there any kind of like official kind of cooperatives or kind of like committees or something that are within the kinda brown and communities?
>> Chantelle Johnson: Yeah.
>> Laura Burgess: For agriculture?
>> Chantelle Johnson: Yes so there's couple of different like organisations and agencies that I know.
[00:39:13]
Even within the Rafi Grant, told you about, there is a particular person who works directly with minority farmers. There is a minority conference called BUZZ, which is black urban farmers and growers that goes around the country. Last year it was here, in North Carolina, in Durham. And then there's a number, like there's black associations, in general, throughout the country that you could be a part of.
[00:39:37]
There's like a black sustainability summit that I was a part of a couple of years ago. So there's definitely a lot of associations, organizations and conferences is devoted to like black and brown minority farmers that I've been trying to connect with. Just to really see and learn from them, see what they do and how we can work together to overcome some challenges that we face.
[00:39:57]
>> Laura Burgess: Great, great. So I wanted to kind of expand on like your community outreach. Could you give me more kind of examples of how you integrate agriculture with this kind of like community I was I said, I got to sell their saw this Community Focus that you have.
[00:40:21]
>> Chantelle Johnson: Yeah, I think agriculture is such a broad term term that can fit in such a number of different ways. What I try to do is all the time remind people to be self-sufficient. By doing for themselves, and then I also stress the importance of generating your own income.
[00:40:42]
So like I said, right now, I'm doing this this speaking tour, I'm also organizing for June 10th. It's like a celebration of like the emancipation of slaves from slavery, I'm organizing, I'm putting together a tent and a movie. We'll have people come out to the farm and we're gonna do a movie screening of this film called Mudbound.
[00:41:03]
And Mudbound is a Netflix original movie that kind of talks about a black man and white man who both fall in the war and came back to their homes and were farming together. And kinda like talk about some of the ratio implications to that. So almost anything I do, if I'm trying to talk about race, I'm talking about farming.
[00:41:22]
If I'm talking about my babies, I'm talking about agriculture. If I'm talking about careers, I'm talking about agriculture, so almost anything, everything I do, I try to attach food agriculture to it. Cuz to me food is everything and it is in everything that we do. So I always try to find creative ways to address whatever issue I'm trying to address or something I'm trying to promote.
[00:41:44]
Like even yesterday, I did a post about positive periods on my Instagram and even that. I even said, sometimes what makes our periods painful, is the food we consume, right? If we eat too much sugar, you might get cramps, right? So how can you eat more fruits and vegetables, so you can have a more positive period experience [LAUGH]
[00:42:07]
>> Laura Burgess: [LAUGH]
>> Chantelle Johnson: So those are some various ways how I use community outreach and agriculture education to spread that message.
>> Laura Burgess: Do you see anybody else doing that in the area or anyone that you know intertwining agriculture with outreach?
>> Chantelle Johnson: Yeah, I see a lot on my Instagram, people doing workshops or doing their own conferences.
[00:42:29]
Sometimes I even see, I follow a lot of doula people and I see them trying to address food insecurity issues, even in doula work. How do we help mamas eat better? How do we connect more farmers to the communitie, and things like that. Urban farmers are actually doing, in my opinion a really good job of educating people around that because they have a greater population that they can tap into, that they can persuade.
[00:42:55]
More than I do, like Salisbury is 30,000 people, Chicago is 2.7 million people. [LAUGH] So I definitely see, because I follow a particular kind of farming. I don't follow a lot of conventional farmers, I follow homesteaders and a lot of homes that is really try to drive home that message around education and practice and really teaching people the importance of agriculture and sustainable living.
[00:43:18]
>> Laura Burgess: Mm-hm, so what kind of aspects of farming do you see the community misunderstand or don't consider? Is part of homesteading or large agriculture?
>> Chantelle Johnson: When it comes to farming, I think what people miss is the price, I spent a lot of time in a farmer's market. In a farmer's market educating people about the price of my food.
[00:43:43]
And why, like I said, my chicken is $6 a pound and for a whole bird in Walmart is $0.92 a pound. So I spend a lot of time educating around. When you have a poultry house that's as big as from this end of my property to the next.
[00:44:02]
Almost a football sized field with 10,000 birds in it, and you can, when you scale up, you can reduce you can decrease costs, right? But you provide to fee, you can reduce costs when you genetically modify a bird you can reduce, it can reduce costs. And so, those type of ways, you do it like that, you can have a $0.92 chicken.
[00:44:25]
[LAUGH] I'm never going to forget the first year I had turkeys, this lady said, $7 a pound for a turkey? I can go to Simply Good and get a turkey for $40, yeah, I was happy that she said she was gonna go to Simply Good. Simply Good is like our local like health food store here in town, super cool.
[00:44:45]
And she was willing to spend $40 on a turkey opposed to the $20 she would've probably spent at Walmart. Okay, I appreciate that. [LAUGH] Step up, [LAUGH] but still she never asks about, okay can you explain to me more about the cost of your product and how do you raise them?
[00:45:04]
How did you get to that price, cuz I'm very, very open. That costs me $40 to raise a turkey, so I'm damn sure not about to sell no turkey for $40, it costs me $40 to raise it. So once again, that $40 includes my time and labor, what would cost to the process them, all sum up.
[00:45:20]
And if it cost me $40 to raise it tell the people, if it cost me $40 to raise it, what do you think I should get in return?
>> Chantelle Johnson: What should I get in return, if it cost me $40 to raise it? What should I get in return?
[00:45:33]
Should I get my $40 back plus 10? Should I just get my $40 back? Cuz if that's the case, I'm not gonna do it [LAUGH] and things like that. So I think when it comes to the price of food and when it comes to homesteading especially when I'm pushing this whole off grid thing, right.
[00:45:52]
Now, I live off grid-ish, and what I mean by that is, I manage my own power system. So I use solar panel for my energy and my lights, but I'm still plugged in to my landowners, their well. So and that's powered by traditional electricity. And sometimes when people think about people living off grid they think about Someone lives in a cave disconnected from the world.
[00:46:17]
And some people have an issue with that. If you're off grid, then you shouldn't use propane, you should use a stick in the woods. Now, come on now, so I get it on both ends. I get people who think I'm in a cave and people who think well you're not true to being off grid.
[00:46:33]
Those people I don't focus on, because you don't understand my life. [LAUGH] And that doesn't mean you can't tap into technologies, it's just how you use those technologies. And so, when people come to the farm, that's why I invite people to the farm all the time, when people come into the tiny house, first thing they say is that's not too bad!
[00:46:51]
>> Chantelle Johnson: It's actually pretty big, is this all your stuff? This is it, and I still feel like you got too much stuff in here. [LAUGH] So those are some of the misconceptions that I run into when it comes to just homesteading, living off-grid, and when it comes to people buying food from me, from the farmer's market and things like that.
[00:47:12]
>> Laura Burgess: So how do you feel about, I mean price is important, I mean, farmers need to live. I think it's kind of been a common trend is that agriculture won't make you a rich man or rich woman. So do you think they, in big companies such as things like Walmart and all these larger, do you think they're kind of, how do you think they're affecting the kind of agricultural at the kind of this level, or maybe even at kind of larger, maybe more sort of conventional, but do you see them negatively affecting your operations?
[00:47:53]
>> Chantelle Johnson: Yes and no, we are both, I used to say we're not a competition, but in some respects I'm in competition with Walmart and the like. Even Whole Foods, Whole Foods not selling at $0.92 a pound, but they might sell it for 3 or 4 a pound. Or still less than mine [LAUGH] but Yes, as far as they're producing in my opinion products.
[00:48:23]
Whether there is fruits and vegetables, and we eat this. This is not quality. They encouraging people to eat out of season. They got watermelons. Watermelons right now in April and watermelons are gonna season until July. And I think when you eat at a season, you don't give things your body needs during that time of the year.
[00:48:44]
That's what your body needs and I want to ask not what it means in the summertime is the reason why we consume certain fruits and vegetables and certain times of the year. So I think it's giving people false ideas they can have mangoes anytime without understanding where a mango comes from and what does it mean to have a mango in December.
[00:49:01]
Even when it comes to vegans, you want to have your quinoa. What does it mean to be able get quinoa any time of year when there are people in Ecuador who are having a hard time farming to meet the needs of these boogie eaters in the US. Or when it comes to eating strawberries, the Mexicans are out there picking your strawberries.
[00:49:20]
There's no machine out there picking strawberries, you have to hand pick those. So, when it comes to things like that, when it comes to environment, when it comes to real people in agriculture field it makes people disconnected, they don't know what it takes to pick a strawberry. They don't know what it takes to raise a chicken, even if you commission a farmer and poultry house, that farmer doesn't make as much, the money not in raising the animal.
[00:49:49]
The money is not in raising the animals, the money is in selling the animals. Or even that poultry farmer who has that big **** poultry house with all that fancy equipment is a contracted to Tyson meat, right. And if that person doesn't produce a good product that farmer can be out of business, right.
[00:50:06]
If they don't get to the ways they want or if the flock gets sick. Don't let your flock get sick. It's over for that farmer. He or she might not be able to get a contract with anyone. So when it comes to these big corporations and food, they just make people so disconnected because people only think they get the food from the grocery store.
[00:50:26]
They don't think about the farmer, they don't think about the cost of getting that food, and what does it mean. So and for me that means that I have to spend a lot of time educating. This conversation that we're having I have all of the time, especially at the beginning of the farmer's market season.
[00:50:41]
When there's new people trying to try something new. Why this need, why this? Why buy from the farmer's market? Why buy local? So when it comes to that definitely it makes it difficult. But when people do come in me that means that they're thinking a little bit there differently right, and now I have opportunity to persuade a customer to meats differently, right?
[00:51:05]
What meat meaning, like M-E-A-T. [LAUGH] So, yeah, those are my thoughts on it.
>> Laura Burgess: Okay, so you highlight this kind of disconnect between the general public and their food. Do you, I mean education, I know it's a big part of that and as you've been speaking, was huge part of it.
[00:51:24]
Do you think there's any other things that either the agricultural community or people at the other end can do to kind of bridge this disconnect?
>> Chantelle Johnson: Invite people to your farm. [LAUGH] Invite people to be a participant in the food system. Beyond being a consumer, what other ways can we invite people to be a part of the agriculture system?
[00:51:45]
Can I come and volunteer, can I come and look at some spreadsheets and numbers? Can I come and be a part of the market and the advertising? How can we get it? How can we reach degree and master's in school and elementary schools the things like that? I think is we need to find different ways for people to participate beyond just consuming and just doing just verbal educational things and things like that.
[00:52:10]
People need to get hands on, get their hands dirty. [LAUGH]
>> Laura Burgess: So, how do you sustain something like this in the long run?
>> Chantelle Johnson: I'm thinking about that a lot, I'm 31 years old still young, but these needs will not be young forever. So even when I first got into homesteading I remember when I was 100% off grid, I had jumped down to the creek.
[00:52:33]
It was five feet down to put water in the bucket to give to the pigs and I remember the pain I felt doing that. One reason why farming isn't attractive to people is because it's back breaking labor, it's a reason why we have immigrants. In the fields picking strawberries, okay?
[00:52:57]
It's because it's really hard work, and so one way that I'm thinking about sustaining this work is building a sustainable community, like my dream would be to have a community fund forty acres. Where I have about ten to 12 people on that land given a certain acreage doing certain kind of agricultural work, that those different agricultural enterprises will sustain the land.
[00:53:28]
Also because I'm not a very high producing farm, I have to generate income other ways. That's where these events come in. The speaking tour come in. So I think, when I'm talking about sustainability in agriculture, I think you have to diversify where you're income's, where your income comes from and the different products and services that you offer.
[00:53:50]
Because as much as I would love to just raise pigs. [LAUGH] Just like a cold can wipe out a flood. A cold could wipe out your herd or your pigs. So I think it's important in any business that you have. You should always think about sustainability and how can the How can a business sustain itself on multiple operations and not just one alone?
[00:54:13]
>> Laura Burgess: In what ways do you kind of sustain the environment? Cuz I know that's kind of a big talking point at the moment. Kind of internationally, nationally. How is that spoken about or dealt with in your experiences?
>> Chantelle Johnson: The way I deal with it is not racing around animals, being mindful about my water usage, trying to do a good job of managing the animals around the land, so not leaving them in one spot at a time, so they're spreading their nitrogen throughout the farm and not in one spot.
[00:54:48]
So those are the different ways that I try to just take care of the environment with the work that I do.
>> Laura Burgess: Okay, so what advice would you give to someone who wanted to get into homesteading or kind of get into agriculture?
>> Chantelle Johnson: Just do it, and I know it's easier said than done.
[00:55:04]
People come up to me and they have all the excuses in the world. I've got debt, I've got kids, I've got a husband, I've got a wife, I've got this, I've got that. And I just roll my eyes.
>> Chantelle Johnson: Because [LAUGH] all of that is just fear based.
[00:55:21]
It's just excuses because we have come to accept the conveniences as they are. We like them, don't get me wrong, I like having a dishwasher sometimes, but sometimes I wish I had a little bit more space. But I wouldn't give up my life for the world.
>> Laura Burgess: Those stinkbugs.
[00:55:39]
>> Chantelle Johnson: I wouldn't give up my life for anything right now. And I work really hard to maintain the level of liberation that I had. So the best thing I see is to just do it and to start small. So if you wanna start home studying but you live in that high-rise in Manhattan, just get you some pots and plant some herbs, start right there.
[00:56:02]
If you have ten acres and it's just sitting there, go out and plow a row and put some carrots in it. Or invite some friends out and have a brainstorming session around a bonfire. There's so many different ways that you can enter the agriculture system. And it doesn't have to be buying land, right away.
[00:56:22]
And I'm a perfect example, I still don't own no land but I'm still able to raise up 200 chickens, 60 turkeys, and nine hogs. And no equipment. And by myself. So if I can do it, anybody can do it. So you just got do it. You gonna pick on what you want, with what outcome you want.
[00:56:41]
Here we go, here is the secret. One you have to have vision. Have to believe that there is something you wanna do, you have to be able to see it. Two you need to build a squad. That's your community, those are the people who are gonna hold you accountable, those are gonna be the core people that support you.
[00:56:58]
Then you just got to do it. Just got to do it.
>> Chantelle Johnson: Whoever is listening, I want you to know that you are beautiful and you're amazing.
[00:57:24]
You have everything within yourself that you need to follow your dreams.
>> Laura Burgess: I think that's a great way to end the interview. Thank you so much.
>> Chantelle Johnson: [LAUGH] Thank you.
Watson Farms - Matt Watson
Matt Watson is a third-generation cattle farmer in Chester, South Carolina. Alongside his wife Kelly and his father Gary, they have a 350 acre farm and rent an additional 80 acres.
Matt recounts his grandfather moving to South Carolina in 1979 and resumed farming operations. He explains the evolution of the family farm in the 1980s and 1990s from row crop farming to strictly livestock farming, due in part because of the 1980s farm crisis. Matt has been farming full time since 2008, after he graduated from college with a degree in mass communication. Watson Farms currently uses rotational pasture grazing for their cattle and pig herds, and traditional coop methods for turkeys. Kelly takes care of the farm’s egg-laying hens. They sell meat directly to consumers, which they started in 2007.
| Time | Subject |
| 0:00:12 | Introduction |
| 0:00:28 | Matt discusses how long he has been farming |
| 0:00:44 | Matt explains the history of Watson Farms |
| 0:01:20 | Watson Farms moved from Indiana to South Carolina |
| 0:02:00 | Evolution of crops and livestock at Watson Farms |
| 0:02:28 | End of rowcrop farming due to weather and farm crisis of the 1980s |
| 0:03:29 | Acreage of Watson Farms |
| 0:03:43 | Livestock on Watson Farms |
| 0:04:12 | Matt discusses going to college at Winthrop University |
| 0:05:02 | Why Matt decided to become a farmer |
| 0:06:40 | Farming organically without the label |
| 0:07:39 | Matt switches with Kelly. She discusses selling and distributing their meats. |
| 0:08:17 | Kelly explains why farmers markets don't work for their products |
| 0:09:06 | The start of their direct-to-consumer business model |
| 0:09:33 | Difficulties in raising livestock |
| 0:10:19 | Kelly explains the sale barn |
| 0:10:47 | How the farm-to-table movement has affected Watson Farms |
| 0:11:31 | Working to educate the public about the farm and agricultural methods |
| 0:12:37 | Dealing with rainy and cold weather on pigs, cattle and hens |
| 0:17:32 | Government support for farmers |
| 0:18:43 | Aspects of farming that people don't understand |
| 0:20:51 | Watson Farms' labor force |
| 0:21:32 | Looking forward and the future of Watson Farms |
| 0:23:24 | The farm's social media presence |
[00:00:07]
>> Louanne Hoverman: My name is Louanne Hoverman, graduate student at UNC Charlotte. Interviewing Matt Watson. Matt, how long have you been farming?
>> Matt Watson: Full-time since 2008 when I got out of college. But I grew up on the farm. And but full-time since 2008.
>> Louanne Hoverman: So you grew up on the farm.
[00:00:30]
How far back does it go?
>> Matt Watson: My dad and my granddad both were full-time farmers, basically all their life. And even back further than that my family. Had farmland but so at least, I'm at least the third generation.
>> Louanne Hoverman: Okay, I saw on the website that the farms started in Indiana.
[00:00:56]
>> Matt Watson: That's right.
>> Louanne Hoverman: With your grandfather?
>> Matt Watson: That's right, yeah. So they farmed in Southern Indiana around Vincennes, little town of Vincennes and they moved down here in 1979 and 1980.
>> Louanne Hoverman: What brought them to South Carolina?
>> Matt Watson: Right, just a number of different things but my granddad originally moved down here to retire, but he didn't end up doing that, and he ended up kept farming and talked my dad kinda into coming down here and farming with him.
[00:01:34]
They could buy ground cheaper down here. They could buy three acres for every acre they sold up there, so they had about 300 and some acres in Indian and they ended up at one time owning about 1200 acres down here and doing real crop farming until the mid 90s and then we got out of real crops and we started doing commercial turkeys and then.
[00:02:01]
It's just a kinda evolved into other things. From there we started grass fed beef in 2007. And so, yeah.
>> Louanne Hoverman: I wanna go back to switching from row crop farming to livestock. What made them get out of the row crop farming?
>> Matt Watson: It was, weather was one factor.
[00:02:22]
The farm crisis of the 1980's played a role in that. They survived that, but just could never get traction after that, the interest rates being so high during the 80's there and do you know it just kind of, if forced a bankruptcy so we had to sell off a lot of the real crop land and ended up keeping this land, and at that point ended up seeing an opportunity in the commercial turkeys and my dad put up some turkey barns and just basically making it work on a smaller acreage it meant kind of switching to a livestock operation.
[00:03:17]
>> Louanne Hoverman: Okay, how many acres do you have now?
>> Matt Watson: Got about 350 deeded acres and we rent another 80 acre farm.
>> Louanne Hoverman: Wow, that's a lot of land. So what type of animals do you raise?
>> Matt Watson: We raise turkeys, commercial turkeys, and pasture pigs, and cattle. And then my wife does layer chickens.
[00:03:50]
>> Louanne Hoverman: What are layer chickens?
>> Matt Watson: They lay eggs.
>> Louanne Hoverman: Okay.
>> Matt Watson: Yeah, yeah, sort of laying hens.
>> Louanne Hoverman: Versus a meat chick I say.
>> Matt Watson: Right, that's right.
>> Louanne Hoverman: Yeah.
>> Matt Watson: Yeah.
>> Louanne Hoverman: You mentioned you went to college. Do you have any education in farming? Or did you go for something else, like science?
[00:04:07]
Like a biology or-
>> Matt Watson: Something else.
>> Louanne Hoverman: Architecture?
>> Matt Watson: Yeah. One of those would have been great. I did Journalism.
>> Louanne Hoverman: Okay.
>> Matt Watson: So I was a Mass Communication major at Winthrop University. And my parents wanted me to get a degree and I thought it be good too, but I didn't get an agricultural degree or anything like that but the journalism actually is into that with some public relations with our customers being that we do direct market to our customers.
[00:04:45]
>> Louanne Hoverman: So what influenced you to take up farming?
>> Matt Watson: Yeah, I didn't always know for sure that I wanted to farm but as I was getting out of college I started to realize that, family farms were increasingly dwindling, and so I wanted to make an opportunity there if it was possible, and so the one opportunity that wasn't there years ago was this interest in local food, and grass-fed beef, and pasture-raised meat.
[00:05:32]
And so we saw that opportunity, and have made a run with that and it's been doing good and customer interest is still very much there and it's done well so far.
>> Louanne Hoverman: Okay, so the family farm went from raw crops to turkeys, when did you start with the beef cattle?
[00:06:01]
>> Matt Watson: We've always had beef cattle for-
>> Louanne Hoverman: Like personal consumption?
>> Matt Watson: No, we always had them and we would market them through conventional channels through the sale barns and things and basically just [INAUDIBLE] operations, but we in 2007, we started direct marketing to the customer.
>> Louanne Hoverman: Okay, do you farm organically?
[00:06:27]
>> Matt Watson: Not per say, we're not technically organic but we use organic methods. But, yeah, yeah, basically.
>> Louanne Hoverman: I've noticed that seems to be a trend with farmers. A lot of people don't know that to get an actual organic label. There's a lot of paperwork, and there's a cost associated with it.
[00:06:50]
>> Matt Watson: Yeah,
>> Louanne Hoverman: And so a lot of farmers, they don't have the label but they still use all the organic methods. So they might as well be organic.
>> Matt Watson: Yeah.
>> Louanne Hoverman: It's just not official.
>> Matt Watson: And I'm actually not feeling real good right now for some reason. Let me, I'm gonna let my wife continue this, if possible.
[00:07:08]
>> Louanne Hoverman: Okay. We are switching out with Kelly Watson, Matt's wife. Luckily we've gone over a lot of the history.
>> Kelly Watson: Okay. [LAUGH]
>> Louanne Hoverman: So I want to talk about selling and distribution. So you sell your product. What are the methods that you use? You did not mention direct to consumer.
[00:07:28]
Do you sell at like farmer's markets or to restaurants?
>> Kelly Watson: We deal with a couple of restaurants but not many. Most of ours is our customers they go on our website and place their orders on the website and we have several pick up locations from let's say Matthews all the way down to Charleston.
[00:07:49]
>> Louanne Hoverman: Wow.
>> Kelly Watson: So we do deliveries every Saturday of the month, or people could pick up here, and that's how most of our product gets moved.
>> Louanne Hoverman: Have you tried farmer's markets in the past?
>> Kelly Watson: We have, we did them for about four or five years. And it just The best sales cuz you're going and sitting out all day on Saturdays or Thursdays or whenever the market is.
[00:08:16]
And you're having to take all those products with you in coolers, and you're bringing back most of it because by Saturday morning markets, a lot of customers aren't ready to buy frozen meat because they've got list of things to do on that Saturday and that kinda thing. So we decided that we were gonna stop those and we haven't done those in several years now just because it just didn't work for us anymore.
[00:08:41]
>> Louanne Hoverman: That makes sense.
>> Kelly Watson: Yeah.
>> Louanne Hoverman: How did you start the director consumer method, just word of mouth?
>> Kelly Watson: Just word of mouth that is what most of ours is. We have a Facebook page and we're putting stuff on the Facebook page and we have a YouTube page.
[00:08:56]
But most ours is just word f mouth. So we started a lot of those customers of last year are doing the farmers markets, we told them and a lot of them stuck on and then just people researching and finding us and that kind of thing.
>> Louanne Hoverman: Are there any difficulties that you have experienced in raising the livestock?
[00:09:22]
>> Kelly Watson: Goodness, no, not really. It's pretty, I don't want to say easy, but it's minimal. You'll have some that get sick, that kind of thing and we'll treat those just so we don't lose them. But we don't sell them in our pasture meats business. If it's a cow we'll sell it to the sell bar, if it's a pig we'll kill it and eat it ourselves.
[00:09:45]
But we don't sell it since it's been medicated and that kind of thing, but yeah, overall it's not that bad.
>> Louanne Hoverman: Okay, Matt mentioned the sale barn, what's the sale barn?
>> Kelly Watson: It is we like Chester life Stock Exchange is where different farmers from wherever. A lot of like the one in Chester, a lot of local farmers, but people come from all over and you can sell your cows and pigs and that kinda thing through them.
[00:10:13]
>> Louanne Hoverman: Okay.
>> Kelly Watson: Yeah, and buy of course.
>> Louanne Hoverman: Has the recent emphasis on farm to table increased sales or have you seen an effect?
>> Kelly Watson: Yes there's as it grows, of course, you get more people that are wanting, as I learn what they're getting when they bought store bought me compared to what they're getting from the farm.
[00:10:39]
Our business grows at with that. Farm to table yeah, that has a big role with it because when I see restaurants wanting to do that, then individuals are wanting to do that. So they realized, hey, that really means something, [LAUGH]
>> Louanne Hoverman: Do you guys take part in any education like teach the public why pastured meat is maybe better than some of the conventional.
[00:11:05]
>> Kelly Watson: Yeah, we're constantly doing that on our Facebook page. We're doing videos, we have on our YouTube page as well, we're constantly doing videos that educate why we do what we do and raise the animals how they're supposed to be done. And, throughout the year, we'll have some groups come out for tours and stuff.
[00:11:28]
We're a big part of the ag and art tour in June. So a lot of people come out that day so they can see it and we're of course doing hay rides, educating that whole time. And throughout the year other little things that pop up we'll do from time to time.
[00:11:43]
But a lot of our education we do from our website and our Facebook page.
>> Louanne Hoverman: Okay, this is pretty rural area, but have you encountered any complaints about smell, noise
>> Kelly Watson: No, most people that live out here know that they are in farming country. So they know that it's going to happen, so
[00:12:10]
>> Louanne Hoverman: This region has very volatile weather patterns, I mean, yesterday it snowed and this afternoon its 70 degrees, so does that have any effect on the animals?
>> Kelly Watson: It can, when we have days like yesterday, we take extra precautions. We took some hay back to the pigs to let them have something to kind of bed down into, gives them something dry cuz the course, the ground was wet.
[00:12:36]
[COUGH] But most animals, they're developed to live outside.
>> Louanne Hoverman: Yeah.
>> Kelly Watson: So one day like that is not, [COUGH]. Now, I'm not saying that they like being in the snow all the time, but day to day like this, no. It wasn't enough yesterday to matter or make a big influence or anything like that.
[00:13:01]
We do take extra precautions, like I said, with the pigs we gave them hay so they could bed down and stuff. Not much you can do with the cows, [LAUGH] and that kind of thing. And on our land hands, we keep the curtains rolled up when it's cold, so that they have somewhere they can go inside their hoot house, and get away from the wind, and the weather, and that kind of thing, so.
[00:13:21]
>> Louanne Hoverman: Okay, now this past winter was extremely rainy, did that have any effect on, seems like the pigs are more susceptible to strange weather.
>> Kelly Watson: Yes, we lost several groups of pigs after they were born. When they were real little just because of the water. And it would run into the houses, kind of out of our control.
[00:13:48]
And if it's real cold, then piglets don't do well on that. If it's,
>> Kelly Watson: Other than that, no, it just makes a mess on the farm, [LAUGH]. Everywhere you go is muddy, but there are times where it gets a little bit rough on them, but it doesn't normally last too long.
[00:14:07]
>> Louanne Hoverman: Yeah, I saw your YouTube video from yesterday, that Matt recorded. Where there's this giant mud puddle next to the pigs, and the snow is coming down, and that's the perfect representation of our winter.
>> Kelly Watson: It is.
>> Louanne Hoverman: It's muddy-
>> Kelly Watson: And the pigs will still stay in the mud, they love it.
[00:14:27]
It can be cold, it can be hot they do it more when it's hot and this type of weather than anytime. But yeah, they'll still roll around in the mud and this winter several times they'd be laid out in the mud puddles, but that's what they use to cool off.
[00:14:43]
They use the water and the mud puddles to keep them cool so they don't get too hot. So, yeah, [LAUGH] lots of puddles around.
>> Louanne Hoverman: Now since all of your pigs and your cows are pasture raised, how do you handle droughts? Like when the grass gets really dry and just doesn't grow very well, like in the heat of the summer.
[00:15:06]
>> Kelly Watson: Luckily, yeah, around here it doesn't get too bad. We do go through droughts, but yeah, we plant annuals that help our grass grow, but we also have hay that we put up and silage that we put up in the fall, I guess? [LAUGH] And so if it's necessary, in the wintertime, of course, we could do that, because there's not much grass that grows in the wintertime.
[00:15:34]
But if we need to in a drought, we can feed that as well, so they at least have something for the cows. For the pigs, they still get grain, they get their feed every day. But the cows, we can give them that hay to supplement them and give them stuff.
[00:15:50]
They just don't gain the weight as easy in those months.
>> Louanne Hoverman: Yeah, what kind of local cooperative organizations are you both involved with? Is there anything with the sale barn like this?
>> Kelly Watson: No, we are not I mean, I guess you can technically say, yeah, we don't do anything with Sell Barn except if we have to sell something.
[00:16:21]
We work with Catawba Farm and Food Coalition, I think is the name of it. And they're in Chester and its a food hub. So we work with them, and right now we're just doing eggs through them. So they got some restaurants in Charlotte that are getting our eggs.
[00:16:39]
And there's a place like that in Charleston that we work with, but other than that.
>> Louanne Hoverman: Okay.
>> Kelly Watson: It's just us. [LAUGH]
>> Louanne Hoverman: What kind of support has been available through the government, whether it's local, state, or even federal, any?
>> Kelly Watson: There are a lot of programs out there for new farmers and young farmers.
[00:17:01]
Not that we're old, but people that are just starting out, there are some programs out there for that. But we don't, us personally, we don't get anything from the government, or anything like that to run our operation.
>> Louanne Hoverman: Even though you guys are pretty young, since it's a third generation farm, does that have any impact on support from the government?
[00:17:27]
Cuz technically the farm isn't new-
>> Kelly Watson: Yes.
>> Louanne Hoverman: But you guys are.
>> Kelly Watson: We, I guess, technically we could get help, but we just haven't. We haven't gotten to that point to where we've needed them to do anything. Honestly, if we can [LAUGH] stay away from getting them involved in anything, then we do.
[00:17:52]
Nothing against the government, but.
>> Louanne Hoverman: Okay, what's an aspect of farming that most people wouldn't understand?
>> Kelly Watson: Just the everyday work that goes into it. It's not just a 9 to 5 job. It's sometimes sunup to sundown. That you actually have to take care of the animals. You can't just give them their water and expect them to be good or give them their grass.
[00:18:18]
They've got to be moved. We're constantly checking on all of them. Every day we go around and check all animals, make sure, cuz anything can happen. You can have everything good one day and the next day have a herd of pigs that's dead or something like that. But just that it is intensive work.
[00:18:41]
Everybody thinks that, you just get to be outside all day and do that. And yes, you do, and on beautiful days, it's great. But we're working in the rain, in the snow, 0 degree weather,100 degree weather it doesn't matter. So just that it's not as good as everybody thinks it is.
[00:19:03]
It is hard work, and there's not vacations. And especially owning your own farm, you can't just take off whenever because there are animals that have to be taken care of and all that.
>> Louanne Hoverman: It sounds like you might be able to eke out a day.
>> Kelly Watson: We can, and we're lucky.
[00:19:24]
If we have an employee working for us at that time or half days here and there. And sometimes even our time is just, we go to the back of the farm with the kids and do something at the creek or that kind of thing. So there is time, but it is not as easy.
[00:19:42]
You don't get paid vacation and sick days [LAUGH] and all that, so.
>> Louanne Hoverman: Even if you have a cold or the flu, the cows still need to be fed.
>> Kelly Watson: They still need to be fed and-
>> Louanne Hoverman: Go check on the pigs.
>> Kelly Watson: Yes, and all that, so, yeah, you work 365 days in a year.
[00:19:57]
>> Louanne Hoverman: Okay, you mentioned an employee. What does your labor force consist of?
>> Kelly Watson: Meaning? [LAUGH]
>> Louanne Hoverman: Who works on the farm?
>> Kelly Watson: Right now it is my husband and myself and my father-in-law. I deal with all of our customers and orders and that end of it. And my husband and my father-in-law do the outside work.
[00:20:25]
We have had employees from time to time that help us out just to make it a little bit easier on my husband and that kind of thing. But when we have an employee he's doing the same things we're doing. If we've gotta set posts for a fence or whatever, he's doing that same stuff, so.
[00:20:42]
>> Louanne Hoverman: Okay.
>> Kelly Watson: Yeah, but right now it's just the three of us.
>> Louanne Hoverman: What do you see for the future of the farm?
>> Kelly Watson: We hope that our children want to do this. Right now, we have a six-year-old and a two-year-old. And our six-year-old washes eggs with us every day.
[00:21:00]
She's out there working with us, she loves going out. But that's our goal is that more people will come to realize that this is the way the meat's supposed to be raised to help us stay [LAUGH] in business. But then also, just that our children wanna continue it for generations on down.
[00:21:24]
>> Louanne Hoverman: Okay, is there anything else that I may have not thought of?
>> Kelly Watson: You covered it pretty well. [LAUGH]
>> Louanne Hoverman: You mentioned YouTube and Facebook. Who handles the social media?
>> Kelly Watson: Me and Matthew, me, both of us.
>> Louanne Hoverman: Okay.
>> Kelly Watson: We both kind of, he does most of the videos.
[00:21:45]
There for a while I was doing most of the videos, but he does all the editing and getting them put on Facebook and YouTube [LAUGH] cuz he's better at that. But just our regular posts and stuff on Facebook, we both do. So with everything on our website, we're both constantly, we just both do it.
[00:22:03]
>> Louanne Hoverman: Okay.
>> Kelly Watson: There's aspects that he can do and stuff that I can do [LAUGH], so it works.
>> Louanne Hoverman: Team effort.
>> Kelly Watson: Yes, team effort.
>> Louanne Hoverman: Okay, that was pretty much it.
>> Kelly Watson: All right.
Yow Farm - Eddie Yow
In this interview, Mr. Eddie Yow discusses his life, reflecting on the many changes to farming and livestock raising in the North Carolina Piedmont region. Mr. Yow was born local to the area in 1952. and has lived in Stanfield, NC for over 30 years. During this interview, Mr. Yow details exactly what work he does raising livestock, why his methods differ from other farmers, and gives anecdotes from his past of examples of the many changes that have taken place since his childhood, including those in selling his product. Mr. Yow also discusses how he envisions farming in the region changing in the future, and the challenges that newcomers to farming will face.
| Time | Subject |
| 0:00:07 | Introductions |
| 0:01:13 | Explanation of past work |
| 0:02:09 | How Mr. Yow got into his line of work |
| 0:03:07 | Row Croppers change Mr. Yow's work |
| 0:03:31 | Diffences in types of feed for cows |
| 0:08:27 | Why Mr. Yow discusses why he grinds his own cow feed |
| 0:10:14 | Mr. Yow talks about his birthplace and home |
| 0:11:16 | Mr. Yow explains why farmers work part time |
| 0:12:28 | Raising hens |
| 0:14:16 | Mr. Yow talks about his traditional lifestyle |
| 0:16:17 | Changes in perserving food and personal growing |
| 0:18:10 | Family lineage and growing up with hogs |
| 0:20:42 | Importance of self-reliance to Mr. Yow and lessons from his father |
| 0:24:07 | Transition from gardening to livestock raising and neighborly farming |
| 0:25:55 | Vanishing orchards and pulling weeds |
| 0:28:07 | Mr. Yow talks about agribusiness and no till regulations |
| 0:32:32 | Common processes for Mr. Yow and diseased crops |
| 0:35:17 | Mr. Yow talks about livestock slaughtering and regulations behind it |
| 0:38:12 | Mr. Yow discusses changes to the rural country and benefits of regulations |
| 0:42:13 | Discussion about Farmers Markets and changes over time with them |
| 0:46:47 | Outside labor for farmwork |
| 0:48:27 | Why do people shop at Farmers Markets? Trust. |
| 0:52:07 | How the growth of cities affects new farmers |
| 0:56:02 | Differences between farming in the north and farming in the south and pooling resources |
| 0:57:35 | Lessons learned from farming and maintaing traditions |
| 0:59:30 | The future of Yow Farm and the future of farming in the Piedmont |
| 1:03:32 | Mr. Yow discusses how trust is the most important aspect of farming |
[00:00:08]
>> Bradley Holt: Good afternoon, my name is Bradley Holt with UNC Charlotte in the graduate history program, part of the Public History Department. Today I am conducting an interview under the Queen's Garden Oral History Project, histories of the Piedmont food shed. And today, I am sitting down with Eddie Yao, and the date is April 9th, 2019.
[00:00:30]
So just real briefly, if you wanna introduce yourself, and what sort of work you do.
>> Eddie Yao: My name is Eddie Yao. I've raised beef or packaged beef sales. I have done this now for probably ten years. Before that, I sold half and whole animals Most felt they were there for the first time.
[00:00:52]
I had worked public work during that time up until about four years ago when I retired.
>> Eddie Yao: My background is maintenance, technical.
>> Bradley Holt: So you say you've been doing this for about ten years?
>> Eddie Yao: The packaged beef sales.
>> Bradley Holt: The packaged beef sales?
>> Eddie Yao: Mm-hm.
>> Bradley Holt: And before that, what do you mean by the selling selling of-
[00:01:15]
>> Eddie Yao: A lot of folks, that's kind of faded away. But a lot of folks used to buy halves and whole beefs. And I would haul them to the processing plant for them. And they would give them their instructions. And they would put them in their freezer and have them processed.
[00:01:27]
I was selling live animals. First it's packaged beef.
>> Bradley Holt: Okay so, before you were handling the live ones first. And now you've moved on to kind of the whole process.
>> Eddie Yao: I've been raising beef for a long time. It's just changed in the forms. I had a market management, Piedmont Market approached me to, back in the day before they had anybody selling packaged beef, if I would do that.
[00:01:53]
So I got the meat handler's license and proceeded to go into the packaged beef business. I still occasionally will sell one. I just sold one to a guy that does packaged beef.
>> Bradley Holt: [LAUGH]
>> Eddie Yao: Yeah.
>> Bradley Holt: Yeah, I remember you telling me about that on Saturday.
>> Eddie Yao: Yeah.
[00:02:09]
>> Bradley Holt: So what made you make that switch over into packaging it yourself?
>> Eddie Yao: Well, once the market manager talked me into that and I got started, it was just a joy dealing with the people. And I like being able to sell folks beef that don't have freezer capacity.
[00:02:27]
But yet you wanna buy local and you wanna buy from somebody that just doing it on a small scale.
>> Bradley Holt: Okay, how many animals do you have at the moment in terms of your lifestyle?
>> Eddie Yao: Normally, I'm gonna have right now, and that has changed in the last ten years.
[00:02:42]
At one time I ran a commercial herd, about 60 animals. And I would take calves off those cows once they were weaned, and I’d raise them on my own. And I would sell whole or halves, or packaged beef, okay? When corn prices shot up at about five years ago, I was leasing quite a bit of land, a little over 200 acres maybe.
[00:03:07]
And I lost it to the road croppers. Pastures became fields, quarter of acre fields. So, I brought back of what I had did many, many years ago. I buy baby calves from dairies, the bull calves, and I raised those out model ' and raise them up.
>> Bradley Holt: Okay.
[00:03:29]
>> Eddie Yao: And I can tell you that dairy beef is a much better selection. I've done both than beef type. The reason that the type is popular is because they can survive on grass for a while when they're young. And once you turn them out on pasture if you're willing to wait about two years, which is why grass fed beef is so tough.
[00:04:01]
They will eventually get the size with the dairy animals. Grass alone just won't quite cut it. They've got to be fed and with me doing what I'm doing, taking baby calves, they've got to have feed and grass from the time they start eating. Because they're not staying on their mama until they weight about 4 or 500 pound, but yeah.
[00:04:25]
>> Bradley Holt: So, what sort of feed then the-
>> Eddie Yao: I run a high percentage of barley. I won't give out all my secrets because I've been doing this for years, and a lot of folks don't know how. I run a high percentage of barley, I run a much, much smaller percentage of corn.
[00:04:46]
That is the non GMO that, I mean the GMO that I will have in the feed also incorporates a substantial amount of hay in with the feed. I run a very light feed compared to what you could purchase, okay? By doing that, I'm able to free choice those animals.
[00:05:06]
Horse or cow, a lot of folks don't know this, but you can't just put feed out there. They will eat til they literally bloat, okay? Which is a serious problem. However, if you lighten up the feed to a point, that they're full, but they're not full off heavy feed, you can do that.
[00:05:29]
So what I've done, and that's the change I've made from the way old folks used to do it. Old folks used to feed in the morning, feed in the evening. My feed's out there in the pasture, with the grass all day long. And they'll pick grass, that'll fill up on that feed, which has a high percentage of hay.
[00:05:51]
And they do really well.
>> Bradley Holt: Okay.
>> Eddie Yao: They're not on any kind of feed schedule.
>> Bradley Holt: So they're just able to eat when they please?
>> Eddie Yao: Yes.
>> Bradley Holt: Basically.
>> Eddie Yao: And I won't get my check ratios on the hay.
>> Bradley Holt: [LAUGH] If not, you're good.
>> Eddie Yao: You can't do that on a big scale because feed companies couldn't make enough money selling that kind of food.
[00:06:12]
Well, they could but then I couldn't afford to sell beef at that price.
>> Bradley Holt: I got it. So basically, kind of like those old happy cow cheese commercials, the happy cows make the better beef here.
>> Eddie Yao: That's right, let them eat when they're hungry. Another thing is, the biggest reason I started grinding my own feed was because, to be able to control exactly what was in the feed.
[00:06:35]
All of new commercial operations, and I've worked in businesses not in grain but in minerals that used conveyor systems.
>> Bradley Holt: Mm-hm.
>> Eddie Yao: I don't know if you ever been around the augers, the big augers and the belt conveyors with the buckets, bucket elevators.
>> Bradley Holt: Yeah, I know what they look like.
[00:06:55]
>> Eddie Yao: Okay. So, you take a big bucket that's grinding feed for the public, I won't call any names cuz I don't wanna be sued, okay?
>> Bradley Holt: [LAUGH]
>> Eddie Yao: But let's say they have ran a batch of chicken feed, okay? When they convey it out of the grinder, it's gonna come out in auger.
[00:07:12]
It's gonna dump into a bucket elevator or some sort, it's gonna go into some more augers, and they're gonna fill the trucks up. Or they're gonna go into a bagging operation to go back. They may run 1,000 ton, okay? Then they're gonna switch over and they're going to do hog feed, okay?
[00:07:34]
Typical way that they do that is they'll do a purge. And what that means is the first ton or two of feed that comes through those augers after they went into their new grinding menu. They'll waste that or they'll mix in something that don't matter. And they're saying they cleaned it out.
[00:07:52]
But I can tell you, that when you're dealing with augers and belt conveyors, they don't get it all. I mean, once you put meat meal, which is a big thing in hog feed, chicken feed. They're not vegetarians like cows are. Then they switch over and they do cow feed.
[00:08:12]
So they can say they haven't put meat mill, and they haven't.
>> Bradley Holt: It's just cross contamination.
>> Eddie Yao: That's exactly right. So I was telling people, I was going to local feed mills and having my grain ground and what have you. And I was saying, no meat mill, and I got to thinking about that thing.
[00:08:31]
And I thought well, the only way that you can legitimately say and be true to yourself is grind it yourself. So I got hammer mills, I got a couple hammer mills. And I don't grind chicken feed, and I don't grind hog feed. I grind cow feed.
>> Bradley Holt: Exclusively for cows, thereby-
[00:08:47]
>> Eddie Yao: They're vegetarians. Chickens and hogs aren't. People don't realize that, too. You see the advertisements on TV of Eggland's Best, and they'll say a strictly vegetarian diet. That's not normal for a chick. I can tell you that is absolutely not normal for chicken, but maybe the egg's better, I don't know.
[00:09:11]
Okay.
>> Bradley Holt: So, what led you to that switch, then? How did you learn about, or what made you make that switch from buying it as opposed to grinding it up yourself?
>> Eddie Yao: Well, I have never bought it.
>> Bradley Holt: Okay.
>> Eddie Yao: Okay, but I was having somebody else grind it for me.
[00:09:33]
That's been around for years. As a child in the 50s, if you went in, I was born in 52, so my earliest memories will be like 60, early 60s, but if you went to a local feed mill and you asked them, you brought most of those farmers back then brought their own grain, and we did, too.
[00:09:53]
They would ask you any supplements for the feed, they were talking about meat mill and bone mill, okay? Been around for a long time. Folks just been hearing about it, it was just this cheap source of protein.
>> Bradley Holt: Yeah.
>> Eddie Yao: Okay?
>> Bradley Holt: Okay, now you said you were born in 52.
[00:10:12]
Were you born in this area?
>> Eddie Yao: Yeah, about, I was born on Rocky, well, Stemmick Herring Hospital, but I grew up my first years was on a small farm on Rocky River.
>> Bradley Holt: Okay, and just for the record cuz I don't think I stated it at the beginning, we are in Stanfield, North Carolina.
[00:10:32]
>> Eddie Yao: Yes.
>> Bradley Holt: Stanfield and how long have you been here, in Stanfield?
>> Eddie Yao: In this house here for 30 years.
>> Bradley Holt: 30 years, okay.
>> Eddie Yao: Yes.
>> Bradley Holt: And as for your farmland itself, where your livestock are, how long?
>> Eddie Yao: I'm on Yow Road, that particular portion of land has been in the family since 90.
[00:10:54]
And I had a cousin that owned it, was fixing to lose it, my dad stepped in and bought that at the time, I inherited it from him.
>> Bradley Holt: Okay, and so you've-
>> Eddie Yao: We sold the farm on Rocky River back years ago.
>> Bradley Holt: Okay, yeah, so you mentioned your father was into farming as well, was it?
[00:11:13]
>> Eddie Yao: Part time.
>> Bradley Holt: Part time, okay.
>> Eddie Yao: That's something else that's changed. When I was growing up, there were very few people, we talking in the 60s that farmed full time. And you had maybe in the area I knew one guy that farmed big enough that he did it full time, he also ran a feed mill business.
[00:11:37]
Most of your folks had anywhere from 60 to 80 acres. And they would farm that and would work public work, too. Things changed, back in the day, 60, 80 acres was probably all one guy could handle when you were talking horses and old tractors. But things changed, and that no longer took up their time and they could no longer make a living doing that, so he worked the farm, too.
[00:12:04]
>> Bradley Holt: So your father, part time farmer and then-
>> Eddie Yao: Yeah, we raised our own hogs, and most folks back in the early 60s, out in the country did that. General hogs, we had a milk cow when I was a smaller.
>> Eddie Yao: We raised our own chickens, eggs forever.
[00:12:27]
I can't ever remember buying eggs, never remember that.
>> Bradley Holt: Does that still continue today?
>> Eddie Yao: It does, I still have hens. I have ten laying hens, these haven't been washed. I kind of furnish the family, ten hens will. Those haven't been washed, wash them. That's another thing, a lot of folks don't understand that.
[00:12:52]
When an egg is laid, some folks call it a coupon or a bouquet, but it's got this like film over it. If you don't wash it, I think it's like four or five weeks, I can't testify to that because I don't keep them that long. But I can tell you that a hen can lay out here in the woods if it's a broody type hen and they have a clutch, so many eggs they'll lay out at a time.
[00:13:17]
It's about 12 to 16. They'll lay there in the hot summer sun when the hen decides to brood on them when she's laid out, so to speak. And those eggs will hatch. An egg is a living organism, it's totally different from meats, a lot of folks wouldn't understand that.
[00:13:33]
>> Bradley Holt: Yeah, I think I've read that over in England, they don't wash their eggs, which is why they don't have to be refrigerated.
>> Eddie Yao: They come with a built in protection.
>> Bradley Holt: Exactly.
>> Eddie Yao: Yeah.
>> Bradley Holt: So you kind of adopt the more-
>> Eddie Yao: When I wash them, I let that bucket get full.
[00:13:50]
I just gave my brother in law a dozen eggs this morning, and he's gonna have to wash those, but once I wash them, I put them in the refrigerator.
>> Bradley Holt: Okay.
>> Eddie Yao: I still live country, we still can all of our vegetables, I could show you jars of green beans, freezers full of peas, squash, okra.
[00:14:13]
Yeah, I still live basically like I grew up and the reason behind that, it's not that I just super enjoy it. I do, I do. I can't live, find that standard by going in a grocery store. Okay, I like being able to, that sort of thing. I like what I get from that garden, from what I get.
[00:14:39]
>> Bradley Holt: So growing up, did you end up kind of the same way you're doing it now in terms of growing all of your own food and not really going to buy it?
>> Eddie Yao: We never bought anything.
>> Bradley Holt: Same way then?
>> Eddie Yao: Yes, now I'll buy some things.
>> Eddie Yao: I love ice cream.
[00:14:57]
>> Bradley Holt: [LAUGH]
>> Eddie Yao: But I'll buy some things, like maybe a pork loin. And then I just bought one this morning. I'll buy things like that. Or we're barbecuing, we'll put in an order for a bunch of shoulders or Boston butts. We'll do that. We do that at Christmas as a family thing.
[00:15:18]
If I can get my hands on it, my brother will still kill hogs every once in a while. I love the salt cured streaking in fat back, but I know where it's come from. I really like that one that doesn't have the seasoning put to it and some that you buy in the store do.
[00:15:34]
>> Bradley Holt: You gotta do it yourself to make it taste good.
>> Eddie Yao: Yeah, I've got quarts of green beans in the pantry. We just, that's-
>> Bradley Holt: Do you grow those?
>> Eddie Yao: I'll show you [INAUDIBLE] just a second.
>> Bradley Holt: Okay.
>> Eddie Yao: Yeah, we grow everything.. I've got, sometimes I go at it too big, stay, stay, stay.
[00:15:53]
I forgot about the dog, [INAUDIBLE].
>> Bradley Holt: [LAUGH]
>> Bradley Holt: Stay.
>> Bradley Holt: Yeah.
>> Eddie Yao: That's mustard greens-
>> Bradley Holt: Okay.
>> Eddie Yao: That's string beans. We got packages of corn. The thing that has changed for me, the biggest thing in putting back vegetables, the thing that has changed is the food saver, best thing that's came along for anybody gardening or into food preserving.
[00:16:29]
The old style was if you took stuff that you didn't normally can, like peas, peas are better frozen than they are canned, corn, same way. Was that you blanched it, you brought your water to a hot simmer. Okay, and that helped it keep its freshness. With the food preserver, you package it fresh and freeze it immediately.
[00:16:52]
It's the closest thing to fresh that you'll ever eat.
>> Bradley Holt: So how much produce or plants do you also work with? Do you personally grow them?
>> Eddie Yao: I don't sell anything. What produce that we do is for our own use.
>> Bradley Holt: Personal use?
>> Eddie Yao: Yeah, we got, maybe a half acre, three-quarters.
[00:17:15]
Okay, we spaghetti sauce, we do all of that. Wife does all of that.
>> Bradley Holt: Okay.
>> Eddie Yao: She's listening. She does most of it. [LAUGH]
>> Bradley Holt: [LAUGH] So you do at least have that mix of you're doing livestock and then selling. But then you're personally growing for yourself [INAUDIBLE] as well.
[00:17:40]
>> Eddie Yao: Eggs, produce we buy practically nothing in the line of vegetables at the grocery store.
>> Bradley Holt: Okay, just the ice cream is what you needed.
>> Eddie Yao: Just the ice cream and I like Breyers.
>> Bradley Holt: Breyers, okay?
>> Eddie Yao: [LAUGH]
>> Bradley Holt: Do you make your own ever?
>> Eddie Yao: I have, I have a freezer, but I stay too busy.
[00:18:00]
I've already taken on too many projects, okay?
>> Bradley Holt: Mm-hm, okay, so you mentioned a little bit before we started the interview, how far back can you trace your family to this area of doing farming?
>> Eddie Yao: Forever.
>> Eddie Yao: By the geneology, my folks arrived at the time of Rico.
[00:18:25]
And thinking that that's what pulled them into the area.
>> Eddie Yao: But that land I'm pretty sure that we got now was an original stake claim.
>> Bradley Holt: Okay.
>> Eddie Yao: Okay, part of a stake claim, it was a couple hundred acres at the time. And between me and my cousins, we're still on it.
[00:18:50]
>> Bradley Holt: Yeah-
>> Eddie Yao: Got split up over the years.
>> Bradley Holt: Yeah, a few of the other interviews I've listened so far that's relatively common. It just gets split up and the lands gets smaller and smaller.
>> Eddie Yao: Yeah, but we grew up, we killed, it was always two big hogs a year, always, for family.
[00:19:10]
And that was my time to stay out of school. I get to keep the fire when I was small-
>> Bradley Holt: What time of year of would this be?
>> Eddie Yao: It'd be always right after Thanksgiving, between that Christmas. They'd wait for the whether to change cold, dry days, yeah.
[00:19:27]
>> Bradley Holt: And that's when you would kill the hogs?
>> Eddie Yao: Yes.
>> Bradley Holt: Okay, and how long would those last you?
>> Eddie Yao: A year.
>> Bradley Holt: A full year?
>> Eddie Yao: Back in the day that was a staple out in the country was what they called side meat, the country ham.
>> Bradley Holt: Okay.
[00:19:42]
>> Eddie Yao: Your shoulders, the front part of the hog and the back part, the hams, was cured. And that was all called country ham, even though part of it was shoulders. And then the side portions of the hog was the fatback and streaky meat. Country folks call it streaky meat.
[00:19:59]
But you would salt that down, and what that was was like you didn't eat a bunch of that stuff. At supper time in the summertime there might be fresh corn, string beans, and a piece or two of that streaky meat. There wasn't a lot of big meals, big meats cooked during the week out in the country.
[00:20:17]
It just wasn't available.
>> Bradley Holt: Okay.
>> Eddie Yao: And folks in the country didn't trust buying beef and stuff out in stores.
>> Bradley Holt: My grandfather grew up on a tobacco farm and he-
>> Eddie Yao: You understand what I'm trying-
>> Bradley Holt: He was always, don't bring the chicken into the house. I don't want raw chicken in this house cuz he didn't know where it was coming from.
[00:20:35]
>> Eddie Yao: That's right.
>> Bradley Holt: I know exactly what you're talking about there. Yeah, so that's a really important thing for you is knowing where your food is coming from, right?
>> Eddie Yao: Absolutely, and the other thing is not having somebody do everything for you. And not losing a lot of that knowledge that's getting lost, how to do things.
[00:20:58]
>> Bradley Holt: So you learned how to do all this from your?
>> Eddie Yao: Father.
>> Bradley Holt: Father?
>> Eddie Yao: And family.
>> Bradley Holt: And then he would've learned it from?
>> Eddie Yao: His father, so on.
>> Bradley Holt: Okay, so what was it like growing up learning this?
>> Eddie Yao: I've seen lye soap made back in the day when it wasn't popular to make lye soap.
[00:21:16]
Saw it made in a wash pot.
>> Bradley Holt: And what is lye soap?
>> Eddie Yao: Lye soap is made from animal fat and lye. And just to give you a little history on that, I asked my dad one time years later. We were talking about him making that lye soap.
[00:21:32]
And he would use it out around the barn. I can't remember exactly all the uses he put it to. I mean, you could buy soap at the store it too at that time. But I asked him one time, I said, well, if everybody kinda made it on their own, I said, who they find Red Devil lye to put in lye soap?
[00:21:51]
And he looked at me like I was stupid. He said, son, he said, they made their own lye. He said everybody had an ash hopper when I was a kid. And he said, like he way he explained it, they took the ashes out of their wood heaters, and they put in a hopper made out of boards.
[00:22:06]
And as it rained, that leached through into a catch basin underneath. And that's your lye, so that was the way of doing things, if you knew how to do it, yeah.
>> Bradley Holt: If memory servers, lye soap was fairly harsh, wasn't it?
>> Eddie Yao: Yeah, it was strong. It would clean, definitely clean with the lye.
[00:22:24]
But it was as strong as you made it, I imagine.
>> Bradley Holt: Okay.
>> Eddie Yao: It probably depend on who's lye soap you were using as to what strength whether their skin would stay on or not, yeah.
>> Bradley Holt: So the lye soap was one of the things that you learned how to make from your-
[00:22:41]
>> Eddie Yao: Well, I don't know how to make it. But I've seen it made.
>> Bradley Holt: You've seen it.
>> Eddie Yao: I'm sure I could figure it out. But I've got no use for it. But I just got to see a lot of things. He still had a horse, when I was a kid, that was a trained work horse.
[00:22:58]
And he would do that when somebody was there just to show them how good that horse was. He would pull the wagon out. He had a old corn. He had pulled the wagon up parallel, out far enough that the horse could maneuver. And then with him standing on the ground and the reigns up in the wagon, he would pull that horse up backward and get her to back that wagon right up to that horse.
[00:23:21]
>> Bradley Holt: [LAUGH]
>> Bradley Holt: Like showing off the-
>> Eddie Yao: Yeah, she was good, and he would just show them how good she was.
>> Bradley Holt: Did you ever learn how to do that, work a horse?
>> Eddie Yao: I have worked a garden with a horse.
>> Bradley Holt: Okay.
>> Eddie Yao: Yeah, I have the for cultivation and a plough, and I've done that, absolutely.
[00:23:42]
I've driven one with a wagon when I was a child too. A lot of that was just doing it the old way when we had time.
>> Bradley Holt: Keeping the traditions.
>> Eddie Yao: Yeah.
>> Bradley Holt: So when did it become clear to you, or let me rephrase this. Was there ever a point where you thought you might not continue the farming tradition of the family?
[00:24:06]
>> Eddie Yao: It just kind of stays with you.
>> Bradley Holt: Okay.
>> Eddie Yao: There was a period of time in the 70s and 80s when I didn't do anything but garden. And I can't remember exactly how it happened. I started leasing pasture land here and there. We always had a beef that we were feeding off ourselves, okay?
[00:24:30]
I can't ever remember a time that I didn't have beef in the freezer from something that I had fed out or raised out to maturity. But I just started just gaining cows, gaining cows and I got back into it in the 80s, and I have just been into it ever since in a bigger sort of way instead of just for myself.
[00:24:50]
I always liked the fact that I could produce as much beef as what I do, and feed as many people as what I do. It's a lot to just your own weight. But when you can help carry along somebody else too, and give him something he can't get anywhere else, kinda a good thing.
[00:25:09]
I like over producing.
>> Bradley Holt: You like over producing? Yeah, I do remember your freezer was nice and full at the farmer's market.
>> Eddie Yao: I always plant too many vegetables and give stuff away. I like being able to do that.
>> Bradley Holt: I feel like that's a really common out in the country.
[00:25:28]
>> Eddie Yao: It is.
>> Bradley Holt: I mean we're about 45 minutes out from Concord, I think. Was it always kind of that communal farming?
>> Eddie Yao: Yeah, everybody, when I was growing up, had a garden, and everybody was always sharing. Need any green beans? Come on over, pick them. They weren't gonna pick them for you.
[00:25:48]
>> Bradley Holt: Yeah
>> Eddie Yao: But you come on and that sort of thing. And another thing that's disappeared is when I was a child, practically every farmer or every small acreage had an orchard of some kind. They would have apple trees or damsels, plums they would make jellies out of, and that's just gone away.
[00:26:10]
That has just gone away.
>> Bradley Holt: Do you think there is a reason for that?
>> Eddie Yao: My people, when you work and you're not there at home a lot, you just don't have the opportunity, that sort of thing. Putting up stuff takes a lot of extra work and a lot of folks are just not willing to do that.
[00:26:31]
My neighbor was mowing his orchard with his horses, he was a true farmer. He never did anything but farm. My earliest memory of him he was in his 60s, and he had a nice orchard, a lot of apple trees, some peach trees. And he was out with his two horses, had them hooked up to a horse drawn mower machine.
[00:26:52]
Just a sickle bar. He had a seat for riding back there. And I asked my dad, I said dad, is that the way you folks did it when you were growing up? [LAUGH] He said no son, he said, back in my day, you pulled up every bit of grass you saw growing.
[00:27:08]
It was a snake issue, I think. Yeah, yeah. They just, he said your yards were swept. He said, you did not allow grass to grow around your house and in your yard. It's just hard to imagine, but.
>> Bradley Holt: Now I can't muster up the motivation sometimes to mow my grass once a week.
[00:27:26]
>> Eddie Yao: I know it. I know it. And then back in the day, they actually kept the grass pulled up and the yard swept with those old straw brooms, yeah.
>> Bradley Holt: And you said him using the horse and the scythe was in the 1960s?
>> Eddie Yao: When I saw that, that would have been mid-60s, somewhere along that line.
[00:27:47]
>> Bradley Holt: That's just a little bit.
>> Eddie Yao: At that time, you still had the folks that had farmed up through the 20s and the 30s and 40s and were still living, and still had their old horses. He would borrow my dad's horse when they, his cash crop was cotton.
[00:28:07]
>> Bradley Holt: Cotton?
>> Eddie Yao: Yeah.
>> Bradley Holt: Okay.
>> Eddie Yao: Basically back then, see it's not like now. There wasn't a lot of market for corn. You didn't see the big corn fields, you didn't have the big farmers like you've got now that could do a couple of thousand acres. So what corn was grown was for their own use, their animals and their livestock.
[00:28:27]
The one crop that they could sell, soy beans was almost nonexistent when I was a child around here. I don't remember the first time I saw a soybean field. But cotton was the one thing that somebody that was the true farmer that was surviving from the farm could grow and sell.
[00:28:43]
And they had cotton. And he would borrow it, when they were working their cotton, he would borrow my dad's horse. He had several grown boys that would come in and help him, and cultivate that cotton with horses.
>> Bradley Holt: Yeah, I am aware of that. Down by Norwood, I know that they have some really large cotton fields down that way.
[00:29:05]
>> Eddie Yao: Yeah, and I know that guy, and-
>> Bradley Holt: Is it one guy who owns all that?
>> Eddie Yao: There's actually two. But, the one that you see if you go Plank Road, if you've been that Plank Road going back side of nowhere down through there and saw those huge, that's Frank Lee.
[00:29:20]
>> Bradley Holt: Okay.
>> Eddie Yao: Okay. Yeah, you got mega farmers now. The people that are in farming now are actually agribusiness. It's not like it used to be.
>> Bradley Holt: So when you say agribusiness, what do you mean by that?
>> Eddie Yao: He's growing several different crops to sell. The cottons not that, that's totally for sale.
[00:29:48]
The beans are totally for sale, and the corn is totally for sale. Most of them of your row croppers now it's not true in all of them, they're the row croppers. They're not raising livestock and that sort of thing.
>> Bradley Holt: So it's road cropper?
>> Eddie Yao: Yeah, it's row crops, corn-
[00:30:06]
>> Bradley Holt: Row.
>> Eddie Yao: Bean, that's what he's calling it.
>> Bradley Holt: Okay, okay, row cropper.
>> Eddie Yao: Yeah, a lot of folks, I'll put this in there, they don't understand how the GMOs happened. Before GMOs, everything was cultivated, okay? That meant going in there with either horse or tractors and taking the grass out of it after it got so high after it germinated.
[00:30:31]
That's not done anymore, and the reason is they were able to go in there and spray and kill all the grass. And it came about for a good reason. It wasn't that, I'm not a GMO fan either, but the no till program is what started all of that.
[00:30:52]
Erosion was a real issue, okay? When you planted, what you did, you come in and you turn the soil over first thing. Exposed it, okay? Comes the rains, a lot of your top soil washed away. When they went to the no till, they come in there now, they spray the top of the ground, they kill everything, okay?
[00:31:13]
They've got no till machines that plant the seed right on top of the ground without turning off, you don't have the problem with erosion that you once had. But since you can't cultivate once you do no till, there is no cultivation, you can't cultivate. They started using pre-emergents, and it worked okay on the beans but not so much on the corn.
[00:31:35]
>> Bradley Holt: When did that start?
>> Eddie Yao: I don't wanna tell you wrong, but the first I remember of it was when it really got big. It would've been sometime in the late 70s, early 80s.
>> Bradley Holt: Okay.
>> Eddie Yao: Your agricultural park was actually encouraging and had incentives for you to go no till.
[00:32:03]
They were really fighting the erosion thing. And so that's how your GMOs happened. It wasn't from a necessarily bad standpoint. What happens always is not good, you kind of trade off one for the other, yeah.
>> Bradley Holt: Yeah, you try to pick the lesser of two evils.
>> Eddie Yao: That's right.
[00:32:22]
>> Bradley Holt: So today, do you have like a standard day or is just every day a different-
>> Eddie Yao: Every day is different.
>> Bradley Holt: Okay, what are some of the common processes you kinda have to work through?
>> Eddie Yao: Grinding grain. Finding grain. I don't raise any grain, sometimes I might do a little barley.
[00:32:49]
I buy from neighbors.
>> Bradley Holt: Okay.
>> Eddie Yao: Watching out for the pitfalls. I may have told you about getting a load of bad corn and having it tested and the guy came and got it back. I know it didn't cost anything except my time. A lot of folks worry about GMOs.
[00:33:12]
With corn, or peanuts, there are much bigger issue that you gotta be concerned about and that's the aflatoxins. It happens in those two crops. And you'll have all kinda explanation of why it happens and when it happens. But everybody wants to talk about stress, maybe that's it. A little bit dryer than usual, but it's carcinogen.
[00:33:35]
>> Bradley Holt: Okay.
>> Eddie Yao: And it can be passed on. Luckily, I had heard that it was prevalent in some people's crops. And I had just got the load in and I took it to a fairly large farmer, a really large farmer that lives close to me, he's got a testing lamp.
[00:33:55]
And it was out the roof. Yeah so I called the guy I got it from. He come and got it and I talked to another guy, another neighbor. And he said, well you come and get some of mine, it looks really good he said, and you have it tested if you want, so I did.
[00:34:11]
It was out the bottom so I got a load of that. But you you're gotta watch for, just because it's non-GMO corn that was used, that wouldn't be the big issue for me. I can tell you. There's other things out there that'll get you. You just gotta know and you gotta be careful.
[00:34:32]
And I try to be careful.
>> Bradley Holt: Mm-hm.
>> Eddie Yao: I don't wanna eat anything like that, let alone sell anything like that.
>> Bradley Holt: And when did you start selling?
>> Eddie Yao: Maybe, I'm just gonna guess.
>> Bradley Holt: Mm-hm.
>> Eddie Yao: 15 years ago maybe.
>> Bradley Holt: 15 years ago?
>> Eddie Yao: Yeah, now, I've raised some cows and was selling calves, but I'm talking about the individuals.
[00:35:01]
>> Bradley Holt: Yeah
>> Eddie Yao: When I had the commercial heard most of what I raised went to the stockyard. I would pull caves out of that, that I would go on out and sell to people that wanted.
>> Bradley Holt: And so today I think you mentioned earlier you kind of do that yourself the stockade and the slaughtering and all that?
[00:35:22]
>> Eddie Yao: No, no, I can't do the slaughtering by state law.
>> Bradley Holt: State law?
>> Eddie Yao: Yeah, yeah. I take it to Cruze's. That's at Rommertown, the other side of Mount Pleasant. He did have a state inspector. Now he's got federal. But if you sell within the state it really is not an issue.
[00:35:41]
And I am not going to say that one is more particular than the other as far as these judgement calls. I can't see a big difference. They package it, put the weights to price and they vacuum seal, they do the vacuum seal, which best thing [INAUDIBLE] ever come along.
[00:36:02]
Just like the food saver with the, yeah, I can tell you. Gives whole new meaning to that frozen beef or meats, yeah. You can't tell the difference when you open a package fresh, just looking at it you can tell the difference
>> Bradley Holt: Okay, so has there always been the state law on having to have the inspector at the slaughterhouse, or when did, do you know if-
[00:36:36]
>> Eddie Yao: I don't know, I can tell you that growing up, well, it's like things have changed so much. You didn't eat sausage year round, and pork. You only ate it in the fall of the year when you killed hogs. Beef was a little different. You ate beef, a lot of folk had milk cows.
[00:36:55]
And when the milk cow would have a [INAUDIBLE] you didn't see the commercial herds like you see around here now. You just didn't see that. Pasture might have a few Herefords in it, but the Black Angus was nonexistent. So folks will have a milk cow and have a milk cow, you've got to keep her bred.
[00:37:13]
It's not like she starts giving milk and that's for the rest of her life. So they would have a like a male calf. Well, most farmers were not going to keep the male calf doesn't give any milk. So when that calf got up about 4 or 500 pounds, they go around, they'd slaughter it themselves.
[00:37:30]
And they'd go around, most of it being beef, cut up chunks, and they would sell it out. That was the only time that you ever got beef.
>> Bradley Holt: So it was seasonally, it wasn't year round.
>> Eddie Yao: Occasionally would be the word for it. You just didn't eat beef that often.
[00:37:50]
It just wasn't available. Most country people, they'd heard the tales of horse meat and stuff like that. They just weren't gonna buy it, and you didn't have the major supermarkets around in our area like you've got now. Wasn't available. You'd go to Concord or you go to you had to travel, okay?
[00:38:08]
>> Bradley Holt: Okay, so how
>> Bradley Holt: How often did you go into like Concord or Charlotte like some of the-
>> Eddie Yao: To buy meats and stuff? Never.
>> Bradley Holt: Yeah buy anything just anything in general.
>> Eddie Yao: Well now if it was closed, you'd go to Concord or. And this area is situated between Charlotte and Concord Monroe so you have a selection.
[00:38:38]
But typically you'd go to town to buy clothes for school and that sort of thing. It was far and few between.
>> Bradley Holt: Okay so for the most part you were-
>> Eddie Yao: Here.
>> Bradley Holt: Self-sufficent out here.
>> Eddie Yao: Absolutely.
>> Bradley Holt: And I don't think of this as the country in a way becuase-
[00:38:58]
>> Eddie Yao: It's not.
>> Bradley Holt: The highways have been built and everything now.
>> Eddie Yao: It's not anymore. I can remember when a lot of roads around here weren't even paved. And there was a time when I knew everybody that lived in the Stanfield area. Basically, that's not true anymore. The country is disappearing fast, really fast.
[00:39:25]
>> Bradley Holt: So kind of building off of that a little bit, how, over the past 15 years, have your operations changed? Are there any major changes that come to mind?
>> Eddie Yao: There are no more small feed mills around feed ground. Those are gone.
>> Eddie Yao: And that's a big thing.
[00:39:50]
>> Eddie Yao: Luckily, they've tightened up on the regulations. Just because somebody's from the country doesn't mean there are scruples of what they should be, and They do tests, ever so often they'll come in and take samples of the meat hanging at the processing houses. And they're testing for stuff like cattle wormer that has a withdrawal period, antibiotics that have a withdrawal period, so they do test that.
[00:40:31]
I've never had a problem with that and mine has been tested. The other thing is the packing used to take animals in that were call downers. And what that meant was, especially dairy cattle in particular, can get down in their back, but it wouldn't matter. It could be broken leg or whatever.
[00:40:58]
And you had folks that would come around with trailers and a winch and they would winch those animals up onto the truck. And there were packing houses that would process them. And now the rule is he walks in under his own power or it doesn't get slaughtered. And they have other regulations, too, about different things that they didn't used to have ten years ago on what they could slaughter.
[00:41:25]
>> Bradley Holt: So they're tightening up a lot of this.
>> Eddie Yao: Yeah, that mad cow thing opened up a lot of people's eyes and it caused them to look at other things, too, okay?
>> Bradley Holt: So you view these regulations as a positive, for the most part?
>> Eddie Yao: Yeah, yeah, from that standpoint, yeah, yeah.
[00:41:45]
A lot of people that would come around selling the beef like I was telling you. They didn't let it get mature because most people wouldn't have figured it out. But they were folks in the country that would come around selling beef out that we knew that my folks wouldn't buy meat from.
[00:42:05]
>> Eddie Yao: Okay, people's standards are just different than what yours are.
>> Bradley Holt: Mm-hm.
>> Eddie Yao: Okay.
>> Bradley Holt: So moving on a little bit now to the actual selling of the product, I'm aware you do sell at the Winecoff Farmers Market. I personally bought a couple steaks from you, and I overdid them a little bit cuz they were bigger than what I'm used to cooking them from the store.
[00:42:29]
>> Eddie Yao: I used to sell at the one in Morrisville. And I used to sell at one south of Concord up there, Afton Village, I think was the name of it.
[00:42:50]
>> Bradley Holt: Yeah.
>> Eddie Yao: But that market, I just didn't do enough. And there was some traffic issues getting in and out at Afton Village. And Morrisville was just too far. So now I'm basically, now I sold at Harrisburg for a while.
>> Bradley Holt: Harrisburg.
>> Eddie Yao: But I'm getting older and and this running down the road don't suit me, and preparing the sale like it did.
[00:43:13]
Got a little store up in Morrisville and got one down toward, it's on Badin Lake. It's actually in Montgomery County, there's a resort, a gated community down there. I'm trying to think of the name of it. But anyway, got one there that sells for me. This guy that's in the same business I'm in, he's more pork than he is beef.
[00:43:44]
I'll sell to people like that they want something they can sell.
>> Bradley Holt: Okay, so you kind of act as a supplement to other sellers as well as personally selling for yourself?
>> Eddie Yao: Yes.
>> Bradley Holt: Okay.
>> Eddie Yao: If I have extra.
>> Bradley Holt: Yeah, so have you always been selling at these farmers markets?
[00:44:02]
When you said you started kind of 15 years ago, was it to farmers markets or who were you selling to at the outset?
>> Eddie Yao: I got up to three farmers markets about four years ago. And I cut all that out about two years ago. I did it for about two years.
[00:44:17]
But it was just keeping me away from doing what I needed to do. And they were during the week, and they were after 12 o'clock.
>> Bradley Holt: Okay.
>> Eddie Yao: And I wasn't getting home till like 7:30. And then I had animals to tend to. So it just didn't work out.
[00:44:33]
It just didn't mesh with what I was doing.
>> Bradley Holt: So, when you get going at these farmer's markets, did you reach out to them or did they reach out to you to sell?
>> Eddie Yao: They came to me.
>> Bradley Holt: They go to you?
>> Eddie Yao: At that time, they were just getting into the protein.
[00:44:54]
They weren't selling eggs.
>> Bradley Holt: And we're talking about Winecoff, right?
>> Eddie Yao: Yeah, and you're talking about, this would've been 2007, 2006, maybe, that's how fast this has come along. By the time I could get my license and get set up with, at that time the nearest place that was doing this, made it legal, putting the weight, the package labeling was at City.
[00:45:25]
And I was having to haul an hour and half to get them done. But they came to me, and by the time I got to the market, it took me not quite a year, and folks were there, too. And I don't think anybody was selling eggs, even at that time.
[00:45:46]
And that's really came along big time in the last five, six years, let's say, folks getting into that.
>> Bradley Holt: Selling eggs at the farmers market?
>> Eddie Yao: Mm-hm, mm-hm.
>> Bradley Holt: What other ways have things changed at the farmers markets over the year?
>> Eddie Yao: Less small timers, folks that are farming just say a half acre or so, come in with potatoes or whatever is coming off, onions, peas.
[00:46:21]
But now, it's more the folks that are into even a little bit bigger scale.
>> Bradley Holt: Okay.
>> Eddie Yao: That do the raised beds, and they're doing things like a raised bed that's probably about 20 to 24 inches. They'll have three rows of peas or green beans close together. And got help picking them, that sort of thing, that has changed.
[00:46:47]
>> Bradley Holt: Do you have any outside labor force that helps you, or is everything-
>> Eddie Yao: Just occasionally.
>> Bradley Holt: Occasionally?
>> Eddie Yao: Occasionally, like with the hay, I've got a guy that I raise the hay. He comes in and he'll cut it and bale it for me. And I get it out of the field.
[00:47:07]
When I have trouble, I need some help, I've got several folks I can call on to come in and help me. But mostly I'm a one man show. And I'm trying I, well, I know I'm gonna keep it that way. My age, I will keep it that way.
[00:47:21]
>> Bradley Holt: So before you retired, did you rely on more labor as you were working in public fields?
>> Eddie Yao: Yes, yes. Yeah, I had a young guy who helped me for several years.
>> Bradley Holt: Okay.
>> Eddie Yao: Yeah.
>> Bradley Holt: So in terms of the farmers market changing, it's most likely the small timers are kind of getting pushed out a little bit now?
[00:47:43]
>> Eddie Yao: Yeah, yeah. You don't see the folks a little bit older than myself that were going there, about my age. That just had a big garden and would plant extra tomato plants, and were selling tomatoes, squash. It's people that's more or less making a living at it. It's still local.
[00:48:03]
>> Bradley Holt: Yeah.
>> Eddie Yao: They're still growing it. But it's more commercial, what I would call commercial, even though it's local. They're not as big as the big growers, the Armani and folks like that. But they're doing five, ten acres, which is huge when you're talking produce gardening. Yeah, they're doing irrigation with the drip lines and that sort of thing.
[00:48:27]
>> Bradley Holt: So why do you believe that people choose the farmers' markets over grocery stores? Cuz I feel like there's been an increased interest in farmers' markets recently.
>> Eddie Yao: Yeah, it's a trust issue.
>> Bradley Holt: Trust?
>> Eddie Yao: Yeah, when you go into a supermarket, you don't know where the vegetables come from.
[00:48:51]
I mean, I'm talking countries, you don't know where the beef comes from. Basically, you don't have a clue. You don't know their standards of cleanliness, just handling stuff.
>> Eddie Yao: I think it's a trust issue. I think everybody's seen the horror stories on TV news. And it's not all bad, I mean, it's not.
[00:49:20]
But you're losing control, is what it boils down to.
>> Bradley Holt: So you think people are trying to kind of reclaim a little bit of that control over their food again?
>> Eddie Yao: I think so. I’ve always been like that.
>> Bradley Holt: [LAUGH]
>> Eddie Yao: But I think it's just beginning to realize it's like anything else, you can’t have everything done for you and expect it to be the way you would do it.
[00:49:42]
That just doesn’t happen. My mother, I’ll just give you this example, I bought a can of greens, just like you see setting up there on the table that we canned. And I bought them, I told her I had done that, and she said I can't believe you'd buy some.
[00:50:01]
There's no way I'm gonna eat anything like that. Well, she said they just can't be as careful looking, that's what she called them, preparing it, looking it and preparing it. I bought another can shortly after there and I had emptied them out and there was a half a cricket.
[00:50:19]
>> Bradley Holt: Ugh.
>> Eddie Yao: Not a cricket but a grasshopper, I guess the machinery just couldn't, it was just absolutely rank. You could put it in a big batch and wash it, but it's not the same thing as somebody there looking at it. Or you looking at it, preparing it.
[00:50:34]
It's just not the same thing.
>> Bradley Holt: Yeah, I-
>> Eddie Yao: I don't think I bought any since.
>> Bradley Holt: [LAUGH] I work in grocery, and I've dealt with produce and grocery, and I remember just recently the big romaine e-coli scare.
>> Eddie Yao: Yeah.
>> Bradley Holt: And we had to pull everything because none of the romaine was source.
[00:50:56]
We had no clue where any of it came from. And so that's exactly what you're talking about right there.
>> Eddie Yao: And the big thing I remember with Meeks was when they had the, that was Cargill, and I don't know how many years ago that was, but they had the contaminated.
[00:51:12]
And their statement was, I think they were doing it, they just did to have it banned. Their statement was that it had been mixed together, and it was from nine different locations. And I think they've changed the laws on that now, they should have. But I think they was just playing the game to keep from having, not being able to take it from their farms in whatever country and bring it in here, yeah.
[00:51:44]
But why would your Pa ever do something like that? Nix, just from a standpoint of control and being able to, I think that's it.
>> Bradley Holt: Reclaiming that control. So, you're a bit outside of the Charlotte metro area. Like I said, about 45 minutes outside of Concord probably, 90 minutes, maybe, outside of Charlotte, maybe a little bit less.
[00:52:10]
>> Eddie Yao: Less than that, about 50 minutes, it's actually, you go down 2427 and be in Charlotte probably as quick as I can be in Concord.
>> Bradley Holt: Okay, okay, I try not to drive into Charlotte if I can help it.
>> Eddie Yao: I don't drive in Charlotte. If we go, I've got a driver.
[00:52:27]
>> Bradley Holt: So Charlotte's continuing to expand as well as a lot of the other little cities, Concord, Kannapolis, Monroe maybe even. Has that sort of growth affected you in any way even though you're a little bit outside here?
>> Eddie Yao: Not really, I tell you who it would affect, it really would affect anybody that's wanting to get in with this sort of thing or continue on.
[00:52:55]
>> Eddie Yao: One thing that has helped in this state to a point is the land use laws. Before that happened back in the 80s, I think that was in the 80s, real estate value would force the sale of most farms whenever the heirs, not the heirs, but the folks died off, and there was a bunch of children involved.
[00:53:28]
Now, you can get a special tax status on the land. But somebody going out to purchase land that wasn't under that person, it'd be kind of tough to get started. We're not rural, there's a term for it. What do you call it when you're not rural but you're not urban?
[00:53:53]
>> Bradley Holt: Suburban.
>> Eddie Yao: No, they say something. I saw something come on. It was pretty accurate the way it was stated, but that's what's happening around here. Servicing programs are going in and buying up or buying, doing the contract thing, where the land has to stay in farming. And that's a great thing.
[00:54:17]
And that's happened with a lot of places around here. But this was all mostly down in the little town of Stanfield. But it was all the small farms. Yeah, all the small farms.
>> Bradley Holt: So just those farms as far as the eye can see but now it's just?
[00:54:39]
>> Eddie Yao: Yeah.
>> Bradley Holt: A lot of it's dormant or-
>> Eddie Yao: Yeah.
>> Bradley Holt: Underdeveloped.
>> Eddie Yao: Yeah.
>> Bradley Holt: Okay.
>> Bradley Holt: So are you?
>> Eddie Yao: It's gonna get more so.
>> Bradley Holt: You think so?
>> Eddie Yao: Yeah, Charlotte's growing. And farm land is not valued in this country cuz it's more of it than we need to feed ourselves.
[00:55:01]
It's not like I understand in Europe where it don't matter if you own it or not, you're not gonna build on it. And it'll come to that one day here if the population continues to grow. It'll have to, it'll have to.
>> Bradley Holt: So are you part of any local cooperative farming organizations?
[00:55:23]
>> Eddie Yao: No.
>> Bradley Holt: So it sounds to me like a lot of your organization is more informal, just kind of working with other people and less of a more of a institutional type organization?
>> Eddie Yao: Yeah, yeah.
>> Bradley Holt: And is that kind of something that's just traditional, just every one has always kind of helped out each other?
[00:55:43]
>> Eddie Yao: Yeah, yeah, wasn't uncommon when I was growing up, somebody was harvesting one thing, and other ones wasn't ready for them to help out. If nothing but driving a truck, or whatever, but In this area, now if I'm understanding, I've had friends up north. Up north you have the co-ops, but down here it was basically small farm, okay?
[00:56:15]
And somebody in the area would have a new version of a combine that was combining for everybody in the area. So it wasn't like you had to own a big combine or stay abreast about that.
>> Eddie Yao: I don't know when it actually started happening. But you couldn't go anywhere and buy.
[00:56:49]
You could have a few meals round your shop, but there was no place I know right here in this area where you could go and buy cow feed or horse feed. They just didn't exist. Our old work horse got corn on the ear and trust me, she could eat it too.
[00:57:08]
>> Bradley Holt: [LAUGH]
>> Eddie Yao: And the hogs were the same way. My folks didn't want anything but corn fed hogs. I have toted many a five gallon bucket to those two hogs that I have every year, put it out, and a hog don't waste it, trust me. If a grain popped off he can find it.
[00:57:24]
>> Bradley Holt: [LAUGH]
>> Eddie Yao: But things have just changed
>> Bradley Holt: Yeah.
>> Eddie Yao: Yeah.
>> Bradley Holt: So I guess, wrapping things up a little bit here, what sort of lessons has your experience working in farming and livestock raising taught you over the years?
>> Eddie Yao: Yeah, first of all, you gotta like doing it or you're not gonna be in it.
[00:57:50]
I don't make a lot of money doing what I'm doing. I make a little but I enjoy it. And in the process, I raise my own food too. So, it kind of gives me an avenue. I stay in it. I just produce more than what I need. And I've got a market for it
[00:58:11]
>> Eddie Yao: I'm able to still live the life that I kinda grew up with, to a point. The one thing that's difficult with me is, I'm trying to be funny, is that unlike the farmers in my day, I'm pickup poor. I've got three pickups. It's a long story.
>> Bradley Holt: [LAUGH]
[00:58:34]
>> Eddie Yao: Farmers, in my day, very few of them own pickup trucks. It's hard for folks to imagine how they did it. Well, tractor and trailer behind it going to the field. They didn't have to go long distances. I know a guy that's in dairy business that he would carry his bull calves that he wasn't gonna keep to the sale barn.
[00:59:00]
There's a market for day old calves. In the trunk of his car, a baby calf will travel real well if you tie his feet, you hobbled him and just lay him down. But that's a big change. Folks don't realize that most farmers, in this area anyway, didn't own pickup trucks.
[00:59:18]
They might have a old, big truck of some sort, but it's a huge change. But, I like the pick-ups-
>> Bradley Holt: [LAUGH]
>> Eddie Yao: As far as getting work done, yeah.
>> Bradley Holt: Very helpful for you, I'm sure.
>> Eddie Yao: Absolutely.
>> Bradley Holt: So looking to the future a little bit, do you envision your business continuing-
[00:59:38]
>> Eddie Yao: For a while.
>> Bradley Holt: Through your family taking over?
>> Eddie Yao: Not really. They may continue to raise some cows and sell it to keep the farm going but most of them are tied up in what they're doing that they just would not have the time. But they'll keep the animals on the farm and that sort of thing.
[01:00:00]
>> Bradley Holt: Okay
>> Eddie Yao: They'll do that.
>> Bradley Holt: So how do you envision local farming will look in the future? You kinda brought it up a little bit with the land usage. What other things do you think will change in the future looking forward?
>> Eddie Yao: I think much to your small farmers.
[01:00:16]
Let me put it to you this way, I do enough business that it didn't really affect me but, think just recently, in a farm bill, it's been within the last couple years, changed the qualifications for tax exemption on farm animals. When I started at this, I think it was $1000 of revenue, okay?
[01:00:50]
For you to be able to qualify for tax exemption on stuff like fertilizer, seeds, animal feed, anything agricultural. It was recently changed to $10,000. Now what that does is, your small truck farmers that got a half acre out here, he can no longer compete, not really. Because everything he's got, he's gonna pay more for than the guy that's doing the five to ten acres, more in a commercial scale.
[01:01:31]
It's the same thing like some guy holding onto five, ten acres of land. And he goes and buys some calves in the springtime. Push them out there, gets them good and fat. Takes them to the market and sells them. He's not gonna clear that $10,000. So if he buys fertilizer and put on his pasture, it's a lot harder to be competitive.
[01:02:01]
Now, it didn't affect me because my revenue was such that. But things like that really hurt somebody that's got 100 chickens and they're cashing on them and selling eggs. There are feed that they're buying for them, they can't get the tax exemption on that now. But little things like that can have an impact.
[01:02:24]
But cost of land is probably the biggest.
>> Bradley Holt: Yeah. [LAUGH]
>> Eddie Yao: By far.
>> Bradley Holt: Especially out this direction where they're trying to expand everything it feels like.
>> Eddie Yao: Yeah. It's just hard. Just like the guys with the five, ten acres doing it. I got a guy that sells besides me up there and he's just close to organic.
[01:02:53]
He just won't go to the aggravation and the problem of getting the testing of it. But what I was gonna say was, there is no way that the guy with five to ten acres can be as close to organic natural-
>> Bradley Holt: Yeah
>> Eddie Yao: As say, a small guy with a small patch.
[01:03:14]
>> Bradley Holt: I actually did speak with someone who sells a lot of farmer's organic products. But he was telling me, a lot of it's organically grown but they can't go through the certification process just due to the costs and the regulations behind it.
>> Eddie Yao: Right.
>> Bradley Holt: So I guess my final question for the day, what do you want people to take away the most about farming?
[01:03:41]
What's the most important thing someone should know about what you do?
>> Eddie Yao: Especially with meats,
>> Eddie Yao: Everybody has a sales pitch, okay? Most imported thing, when you're buying eggs, fish Beef, pork, lamb, especially on the meats, is that you just got to find somebody you could trust because folks would tell you anything.
[01:04:16]
You got to find somebody that's particular about what they eat to begin with, cuz if they'll eat anything, they'll sell you anything, okay?
>> Bradley Holt: Yeah.
>> Eddie Yao: It's hugely a matter of trust finding somebody that you believe shoots straight, and is not gonna do anything to endanger themselves, let alone endanger you.
[01:04:42]
Yeah, yeah, I think it's a matter of trust.
>> Bradley Holt: And that kind of goes back to why people are kind of shifting to those farmers' markets again?
>> Eddie Yao: Now if I thought you were selling something to somebody that's gonna kill them, I'd speak out, but it's like the pasture raised beef.
[01:05:06]
I don't look at it. But I know that if I was a shopper, knowing what I know, they probably don't know, and I saw white fat on a pasteurized beef, I would know that somebody was not telling it like it was. That does not happen with pasture raised beef.
[01:05:28]
The other thing that I would point out to people is to know the questions to ask. Grass doesn’t grow year round here. So if somebody tells you, they're totally grass-fed, what are they feeding those animals in the winter? And how old are the animals when they're slaughtered?
>> Eddie Yao: A steer is like a young person.
[01:06:03]
His mama can sit there and eat grass and hay, and as long as she gets about 2% of her body weight during the day, it don't matter what it is, she'll maintain and she'll do just fine. But that steer is like a young person. He's growing muscle, he's growing bone.
[01:06:24]
Once mama weans him off or he gets to a size that the milk is no longer enough to propel him on, if his genetics tell him in his body that he's gonna weigh 1400 pounds at maturity, then what you're doing is you're delaying his growth if he doesn't get what he needs.
[01:06:52]
So I can tell you that a typical steer at 16 months of age, if he gets what he wants and needs to eat, will weigh about between 12 and 1400 pounds, okay? Now, if he doesn't get what he needs, that same steer would take 22 to 24 months, so what's the point in that?
[01:07:17]
What's the health benefit in that? There is none. There is none. All that's telling you is he can reach his mature, marbled, hopefully perfectly marbled, weight in 16 months. So if you don't supplement, grass is great and I'm glad I got plenty of it for mine. I think they need a balanced diet, it's like anything else.
[01:07:45]
But to say that grain is bad, typically it's because of corn and the GMOs, but in the Bible it says, with Solomon, he grained fat and cattle. I know there weren't any corn in there cuz corn was over here in the Americas, but feeding an animal is not bad.
[01:08:03]
[LAUGH]
>> Bradley Holt: Yeah.
>> Eddie Yao: Yeah.
>> Bradley Holt: So, it sounds like-
>> Eddie Yao: I'm saying that,
>> Eddie Yao: Reading the book on how to build a rocket to the moon doesn't empower you to do that. It gives you a general knowledge. And folks need just read between the lines and look at it in a deeper sense.
[01:08:28]
Everybody knows that GMOs are not well liked. I'm not a fan of them either. But you can't let yourself get zeroed in on just one particular thing and forget about, not being able to see the forest for the trees so to speak.
>> Bradley Holt: [LAUGH]
>> Eddie Yao: Okay?
>> Bradley Holt: Yeah.
[01:08:46]
>> Eddie Yao: There's just a lot out there and if you're buying produce or beef, or meats, or eggs from somebody, you just gotta know that they know what they're doing, and that they're not an unscrupulous sorta person, they're gonna do it right.
>> Bradley Holt: Going back to that trust thing.
[01:09:01]
>> Eddie Yao: That's exactly right. That's exactly right.
>> Bradley Holt: Well thank you for sitting down with me today. Are there any final remarks you'd like to make?
>> Eddie Yao: I think we've talked a little bit about everything. If there is something else you want to ask me then feel free.
>> Bradley Holt: I think we hit on just about everything.
[01:09:16]
>> Eddie Yao: Okay, if you've got what you needed,
>> Bradley Holt: Thank you again.
Big Oak Farm - Mike Smith
The Big Oak Farms has been in the Smith family for the past 200 years. Michael grew up around farming and took over the family farm in the 1980s where he mostly raises cows and pigs. In the 2000s he switched from selling live cattle to selling his own beef and pork products at local farmers markets. Mike and his wife, Dawn, were the initial organizers of the Conover Farmers’ Market and Dawn directed the market until 2018.
| Time | Subject |
| 0:00:08 | Introduction |
| 0:01:04 | History of Big Oak Farm and farmers' markets |
| 0:01:57 | Growing up with farming and taking over the family farm |
| 0:02:59 | Typical day on the farm and balancing two jobs |
| 0:04:30 | (Phone Notification) |
| 0:04:58 | Acreage between all of the farms and their use |
| 0:05:42 | Increasing demand at farmers' markets |
| 0:06:20 | The "Cul-de-Sac Moms": key to success and demise |
| 0:07:14 | The collapse of civilization and what to do about it |
| 0:09:07 | Approach to change, handling cattle, and grazing techniques |
| 0:13:34 | North Carolina State, government agencies, and the internet |
| 0:15:24 | Challenges with the soil |
| 0:16:23 | Challenges with the weather and the 2007 Drought |
| 0:18:43 | Expenses |
| 0:19:32 | Distribution at the farmers' markets |
| 0:20:51 | Entering the farmers' market economy and fears |
| 0:23:55 | Organic farming, consumer concerns vs. practicality |
| 0:28:03 | Misconceptions of modern farming and the GMO controversy |
| 0:29:25 | (Phone Notification) |
| 0:30:48 | "No-Till" Farming and soil conservation |
| 0:31:13 | (Phone Notification) |
| 0:32:30 | Research and Information vs. Misinformation |
| 0:34:33 | Local farming community, big farms, and small farms |
| 0:38:23 | Open community and farming organizations |
| 0:39:30 | Know Your Farms, LLC |
| 0:41:24 | Farming is hard, dirty, non-stop, and filled with adversity |
| 0:44:09 | Smaller farms equal smaller profits |
| 0:44:35 | (Pause in Recording) Granddaughter triggered car alarm |
| 0:44:36 | Grandchildren growing up on the farm |
| 0:45:16 | Lack of interest among the youth for farming |
| 0:47:01 | The lost art of feeding ourselves |
| 0:48:37 | "Feeding yourself is the most intimate thing…" |
| 0:50:25 | The cost of buying imported food and embracing technology |
| 0:53:00 | Final thoughts |
| 0:53:15 | End of Interview |
[00:00:02]
>> Tom Grover: We are recording. So my name is Tom Grover. This interview is part of the Queen's Garden Oral Histories of the Piedmont Food Shed, an oral history project conducted by graduate students from the University of North Carolina at Charlotte. This project seeks to collect the stories of those who grow, cultivate, produce and distribute fresh food in the greater Charlotte region.
[00:00:26]
Today's date is Wednesday, April 17th 2019. And I'm with Mike Smith at Big Oak Farm in Kannapolis North Carolina. Mike would you please introduce yourself and include the year and place you were born.
>> Mike Smith: Okay, my name's Mike Smith, the name of my farm is Big Oak Farm.
[00:00:46]
And I was born in Cabarrus County in Concord, and I am 60 years old, so I was born in 1959.
>> Tom Grover: Okay, what is the Big Oak Farm, and what do you produce on it?
>> Mike Smith: Well, Big Oak Farm is a beef and pork operation, this farm has been in my family close to 200 years now.
[00:01:16]
We've been producing agricultural products In this area for they long and us have raised beef cattle since probably back in the mid 80s by myself on this farm. About ten or eleven years ago, some folks talked me in to, instead of selling live cattle on the hoof, we started selling meat at farmers markets and that's what we've been doing ever since.
[00:01:50]
>> Tom Grover: So, you've been a full time farmer since the 80's or sis you start before that?
>> Mike Smith: I farmed off and on my whole life when I was going to school. I've got two degrees in wood products technology, and I went to a community college up in the western part of North Carolina.
[00:02:10]
When I was up there, find barely to back up just because I enjoy farming. They not only lined just the lease was lined. Then when the educational opportunities were gone and some job opportunities in this area present themselves came back here I was gone for 11 years. And came back here.
[00:02:33]
My grandfather's health was not good. My dad really had no interest in doing anything with the farm and so after my grandfather passed away, I made the decision to convert this into a beef cattle operation and that's what we've been ever since.
>> Tom Grover: Can you describe a typical day on the farm?
[00:02:59]
>> Mike Smith: It varies greatly depending on what needs to be done and what time of year it is.
>> Mike Smith: And this is not my full-time job. I own a company called the Mold Hunter. We go in and do water damage restoration and we also clean up mold after water damage.
[00:03:20]
That's really my full time job. This, the farm and was more or less a hobby. I tell people it's my golf game but because the demand, it's become more of a full time job. I'm very fortunate that I've got people that work for me at the company that allow me the opportunities to come out here when I need to and do different things.
[00:03:47]
But different times of year we may be applying fertilizers or earlier this week I was dragging down manure piles to help distribute the manure around in the pastures. All winter we're feeding hay to the cattle cuz we've not any grass for them so we're distributing hay to the various pastures I have, Laced in around here and in about probably three maybe four weeks weather dependent, we're gonna start making hay again for storage for next year so that'll carry me through, just making hay alone will carry me through.
[00:04:28]
Till well after memorial day and it's kind of just a cyclical thing where depending on time of the year as to what we do but I mean, today is very typical. It's a beautiful day out here to just get out and enjoy what God has put out here for us to see.
[00:04:51]
>> Tom Grover: How many acres are we looking at here?
>> Mike Smith: We own 60 here and of that 60 about 25 is pastured, the rest is wooded and then of the other farms that I lease, there's about, in total 300 acres and above. Half of that is passed there on the other half is hay production.
[00:05:17]
I have got 150 of each.
>> Tom Grover: I did check your website and it suggest that you are still interested in growing and that if people had extra acreage to contact you, are you still looking?
>> Mike Smith: Yeah.
>> Tom Grover: Okay.
>> Mike Smith: You know the demand is there, that's been probably one of the most eye opening things to me is when I started doing this in particular we The Davison Farmers' Market is our best market, got a lot of people.
[00:05:52]
The community folks there in Davison support the market really well, and they come out every weekend and buy our products. It's a year-round market for us, and in the winter time, we only go every other week. But it's still a good market for us. And,
>> Mike Smith: I have been shocked at the demand for our products that's out there.
[00:06:20]
And I tell people this all the time, the cul de sac moms are our success. Because those are the people that are buying our products, that are concerned about providing good food for their children, good healthy food for their children. But those same moms are the ones that are gonna put us out of business because once you put a cul-de-sac on what used to be a farm, it ain't going back to a farm.
[00:06:50]
And some research that I did several years ago said North Carolina leads the nation in the decline of farming that they estimate over 4000 farms a year in North Carolina are taken over by development. And to me, that's sad. I see it as a lost art, and to get on the soap box a little bit, which I do often, the demise of civilization as we know it is going to be that we can't feed ourselves
[00:07:26]
>> Mike Smith: The world's population is supposed to increase by 2 billion people in the next 25 years. And it's not like there's vast regions of untapped farmland in the world available to be able to grow food to feed these people. So we've got to embrace technology. We've got to look at our farming practices and try to make improvements so that we can produce More with layers, and that's really what we're doing.
[00:08:06]
I can remember on this same land my grandfather was very proud, and I can remember him going to anybody that would listen to him and brag that he was able to get 50 bushels of corn per acre, all right? On the same ground, you can now produce over 200 bushels of corn per acre.
[00:08:31]
That's a huge increase in production on the same amount of land. So how do we get there? Technologies, farming practices, genetic improvements in seeds, the climate hadn't changed, the land hadn't changed, some fertilizers have changed some. But those are things that we've got to embrace to be able to feed this world.
[00:09:02]
>> Tom Grover: So besides these changes, have there been other changes you've noticed or,
>> Tom Grover: Things that have made you change your operations in any way?
>> Mike Smith: I'm a creature of habit, but I do recognize the need for change in different areas. I'm a conservative person as well, so any changes that I make are gonna be subtle and minute.
[00:09:42]
And I'm kind of old school too, if ain't broke don't fix it. But, a few things that we've done as I've gotten older and maybe not as not flee the fat as I used to be, handling cattle, it's not like they're not payits. You can't go out and call on them and they'll all come running up to you.
[00:10:07]
And you can say okay you jump on the trailer and you stand over here and wait. I mean there's some physical activity that has to occur to get all that done. And so to do that my handling facilities had to improve. And we've employed with this handling pen out here, we've employed some practices by Temple Grandin, who was a professor at Colorado State I believe.
[00:10:38]
But she's autistic and she has utilized autism to develop handling facilities for cattle. And basically, what she has determined is that cattle move much better in an arc as opposed to a straight line? Because they sense if they're moving in an art that they're going back to where they came from, and where they came from.
[00:11:08]
I want and they're bothering them so it's a safe place. Cattle are flight or flight animals, and so the handling pen that we have here, it moves the animals in an arc. I mean, it's not like they gonna landed and just go through there, but they do move much better in an arc than they do in a straight line.
[00:11:33]
Another thing that I've done out here say in the last ten years that has made a huge improvement, and I do it on some other farms too, but we do fairly intensive rotational grazing. And if anything my stocking densities on this land have increased over the last ten years.
[00:11:55]
Typically I'm feeding hay out here because I've run out of grass normally around labor day. For the last four years now, I hadn't started feeding hay until the first or second week in January. So that's over three months of not having the feed hay because I've got grass out here.
[00:12:19]
And the only reason I've been able to do that is with intensive grazing. And all that means is you can see it out in this pasture. You can see those little stubs out there, and you can see where the grass is taller beyond it. I only give them access to a certain amount of grass at a time.
[00:12:35]
And then once they eat that down, I move that fence out a little bit farther. I went to a forage conference several years ago put on by NC State University, and they were telling us that as much as 40% of your forage gets walked down by the cattle because they're just out walking around trying to find the lushest, greenest sweetest tasting grasses,.
[00:13:02]
And when they're doing that they're walking on other grasses and trampling it down and in hot weather grass doesn't like that, it kills it. So that's been a huge improvement at this farm and other farms that we lease too. It's a really extending the grazing period, and I think we're producing bigger better cattle now as a result of it.
[00:13:28]
>> Tom Grover: Speaking of empty state, are they or any of the local government agencies have you found them to be pretty helpful or otherwise?
>> Mike Smith: They're helpful with questions and trying to get answers to different things. But I have to say,
>> Mike Smith: Prior to the Internet, they were much more,
[00:14:03]
>> Mike Smith: Valuable to farmers. Then maybe after the Internet because now there's just so much information on the Internet, rather than like calling an extension agent and asking them questions. They're gonna do unless they have a specific knowledge base of whatever you're asking them, they're gonna basically do the same thing you do.
[00:14:26]
They're gonna get on the Internet and try to find the answers to your questions. And this way it's not that I'm trying to circumvent anybody or anything, but this way, it's just so much easier for me in a timely matter because I can do it from my phone.
[00:14:42]
And if I got a question about something, I can almost get instantaneous answer out here. So, it's not that I don't utilize them because I do attend various seminars and things that I put on by the state in the county. And go to things that are done by NC State, and different places that I go, you see their presence there.
[00:15:10]
But probably the Internet is one of the most helpful tools for information that I use now.
>> Tom Grover: Okay, are there any particular challenges or benefits to farming in this region?
>> Mike Smith: It's not that we have poor soil quality here, but there are definitely other regions in the country that have better soil quality than we do.
[00:15:46]
>> Mike Smith: So pH is kinda hard to keep in the soil around here so you have to use lime quite often, to keep your soil pH up to where it will grow good grass.
>> Tom Grover: Is that because of the clay?
>> Mike Smith: I'm not an agronomist, so I'm not gonna say you act like what causes it, I just know it costs a lot of money, but.
[00:16:07]
>> Tom Grover: [LAUGH]
>> Mike Smith: And in talking to other people in different areas, a lot of things that we have to do, they don't have to do quite as much. But one of the biggest challenges that we have and everybody in the world that farms has, this a problem is the weather.
[00:16:26]
So one thing that we can't control and the last drought period that we had was in 07. And as a result, now if I may don't produce enough hay, I can go to any of my neighbor farmers and ask them if they've got hay. And buy additional hay from them to get me through the winter.
[00:16:59]
But in 07, all the neighbor farmers were in the same boat I was in. They didn't have any hay either, and I wound up because of the drought. I went down to South Georgia and made like seven trips down there. Almost into Florida just to haul very poor quality expensive hay up here to be able to get me through the winter.
[00:17:23]
I had my cattle looked terrible, because they didn't have anything to eat. So I had to sell some of them so that I could make what I had go further, and it was a very, very tough year. And I asked my grandfather prior to his death when I was considering just converting this whole farm into a cattle operation.
[00:17:48]
You gotta have food and water for them, and a little bit of shelter, but not much. I was concerned about water, and on the back side of the property we've got some springs back there that I wanted to utilize. And those springs give us a year round supply of fresh water, even in the winter time they don't freeze up.
[00:18:10]
So I asked my grandfather, prior to his passing, [COUGH] Had he ever known those springs to dry up? Did I need to be concerned about that or try to seek additional water sources? [COUGH] And he was 83, and he said, not in my lifetime. Well they dried up in 2001 and they dried up in 2007 and they came back both times.
[00:18:34]
So in my life time I've seen them dry up twice, excuse me.
>> Tom Grover: No, I know there's a lot of pollen in the air.
>> Mike Smith: Yeah.
>> Tom Grover: What are you largest expenses? And what do you do to kind of mitigate them?
>> Mike Smith: For me, processing is a big expense, and the other biggest expense that I have is fertilization.
[00:19:05]
[NOISE] Other than that I mean I don't really have any labor that helps me do anything. So I don't have any labor cost, [COUGH] Fuel I mean my tractor that I run is pretty fuel efficient. I mean it does burnt fuel, but it's not like an exorbitant amount.
[00:19:30]
So those are really two big expenses that I have. [COUGH]
>> Tom Grover: Okay, let's switch over to actual distribution. You said that you're involved with the Davidson Farmer's Market, are there any others?
>> Mike Smith: Can over farmers market, we did do some other farmers markets over the years but for any number of reasons we just decided not to do them.
[00:20:00]
And one of the biggest reasons is I was having trouble getting my cows big enough, which I still am. Before I take them to the processor and I've had to self impose demand restrictions by reducing the markets that we go to. So I've got more time to get my stuff bigger.
[00:20:27]
>> Tom Grover: Where is your processor located?
>> Mike Smith: My beef processor is maize meat in Taylor's Ville and my wife's uncle has opened up a processing facility at his farm. And its USDA inspected for the pigs, and it's in Lake Lower.
>> Tom Grover: Are the, is the beef USD inspected as well?
[00:20:50]
>> Mike Smith: Uh-huh, yeah, yeah.
>> Tom Grover: So how did you first gain access to the farmer's markets? Did you just reach our to them or were you invited?
>> Mike Smith: The Davison farmer's market started in 07 which was a drought year and we did, we were invited. We did go over, and visit the market.
[00:21:21]
And I knew right away that there was no way I could support that market with our product at that time. Because it was a drought year, my cattle were in poor shape, and I didn't have enough of them. So we waited until 08 to start doing farmer's markets, and the demand has been incredible, and growing ever since.
[00:21:51]
My fear when I started doing farmer's markets was, in particular Davidson. That customer base was going to have very high demands, and be very quality oriented. Which, that's what I want to produce is a quality product. But when you process a cow, normally you're gonna have at least 70% of that cow is gonna come back as ground beef.
[00:22:23]
And only about 10 to 11% of it are grilling steaks. Well people with disposable income probably eat more steaks than they do hamburgers. So in my mind I was envisioning a freezer full of ground beef. And those stakes it's been the exact opposite, I have probably taken in the last five years.
[00:22:52]
I bet I have a 100 cattle to be processed and say grind the whole thing up. Because the demand for ground beef has just been so great not that there is not a demand for steak. But there's just a bigger demand for ground beef. And it's good because of the biggest majority of your cut is ground beef, so works out well.
[00:23:14]
>> Tom Grover: But that kind of surprised you.
>> Mike Smith: It shocked me, it shocked me. I had no idea that, that would be the way it worked out, and same thing with the pigs. I thought that pork chops were going to be the product of demand. But our ground products, ground pork and our various sausages that we carry, that's 60, 70, 80% of the cut when you process a pig.
[00:23:43]
And it's a good thing because that's where the demand is. We've got a lot of people buy our ground pork products.
>> Tom Grover: Are you? Let me rephrase this here.
>> Tom Grover: You spoke briefly about the organic movement, okay, and was that a concern as well when you were looking into these farmers markets?
[00:24:12]
Or was that something you were prepared to handle?
>> Mike Smith: At the time to me organic was kinda it was unknown to me. I didn't know what kind of demand there was, I didn't know what the requirements were, for me to be organic. So it really wasn't a big concern, but as I started going to the markets and talking to a lot of people.
[00:24:48]
Very interestingly, the very last question, and people asked me a lot of questions at the market. The very last question I get asked is, how much is it? And today still that it astounds me that people aren't as concerned about cost as they are about quality. How the animals have been treated, and what their putting in their families' bodies, and I applaud people for that.
[00:25:20]
That's what they need to be doing, they need to be asking those questions. But early on, there were a lot of questions about organic. And I had to do some research to find out what the whole organic thing meant to me. And the thing that I found out was, I'm gonna have to have a vet that comes to my property every year, to inspect the wellness of the herd.
[00:25:49]
I ain't had a vet out here in probably 15 to 20 years. I don't need that additional expense, just to satisfy putting a name on my product.
>> Mike Smith: The other thing that I found out was all of my treated posts would have to come out. And I would have to put in posts that are not treated, so they're gonna rot.
[00:26:13]
I would have to take down all my zinc-coated wiring, replace it with wire that will rust. And this farm's been in my family for close to 200 years, and so we know a little bit about being sustainable in farming. And to me those are not sustainable practices, so I just decided not to pursue being organic, and since
[00:26:47]
>> Mike Smith: But Davidson in particular, there were a number of organic producers there early on. But now there's not a single organic producer at the Davidson market. It's a label that gets put on your product that satisfy somebody's perception and somebody's demand. That really doesn't know a lot about farming, or enough about farming.
[00:27:15]
Because in my opinion, I won't say it's not a sustainable practice, but it's definitely not a practical practice. And to be organic, and I've been to a number of organic farms. And most of them just kind of look like a weed patch and it's not just something that you can be very productive at.
[00:27:49]
Yeah, you can get a lot more money for your product, but you're not gonna be able to produce as much per acre. As you can using modern farming practices and taking advantages of opportunities and technologies. That are out there to where you can get more off your land.
[00:28:08]
>> Tom Grover: Do you feel there's a misconception about modern farming, like the connotation behind it?
>> Mike Smith: I do, and this is probably the biggest bugaboo that I run into at the farmers' market, and it's the GMO thing. I grow grass here, there's not a GMO grass out there except for alfalfa.
[00:28:38]
They have Roundup Ready alfalfa, but other than that, there's not a GMO grass out there. So people's concern is, if you feed the animals any type of grain, because you got Roundup Ready soybean. So they're a GMO product, then you've got corn that's a GMO product.
>> Mike Smith: Finding non-GMO feedstocks for animals is very difficult, it's expensive.
[00:29:17]
>> Mike Smith: Everything that I sell, primarily because of customer demand, is grass-fed, grass-finished. I personally prefer to have a little bit of grain that runs through my animals towards the end. Provides a little more of a fattier product, it gets get you a little more marble, it gets you a lot better flavor.
[00:29:41]
And in talking with some of the research people, in particular at NC State. It does not adversely affect a lot of the health benefits that you get from grass-fed. Like your Omega-3s and fatty acids that are imparted as being grass-fed. As long it's something that you do in the finishing stage, there's really no negative impact on your end product.
[00:30:08]
So the whole GMO thing is something that I think is gonna kinda go along with organic. It's gonna probably fall by the wayside over a period of time. To me, the advantages of GMO products far outweigh the disadvantages at this point in time and so far as what I know.
[00:30:41]
Because there's really not substantiated data that supports anything that's been genetically modified as being bad for your health. But I look at things like No-till Farming back in the 30s and 40s, when all the ground was tilled or plowed. And then planted, in particular out in the Midwest, and in this area too.
[00:31:15]
The big concern was not the only wind erosion, but rain erosion as well. And by utilizing No-Till practices, those concerns have all but gone away. This farm, back in the early days was a cotton farm, this is highly erodible soil out here. And as it was farmed and as it was plowed and tilled even with a horse.
[00:31:43]
There are some gullies on the backside of the property back here that are probably 60 feet deep. And I've had Soil and Water Conservation people from Cabarrus County come out. And tell me these are some of the deepest gulleys they've seen in Cabarrus County. But those gulleys because, now With no till farming practices, we're not turning the ground, it's not eroding anymore.
[00:32:08]
You've got grasses and things that help hold the soil in place and don't let it either wash away or blow away and to me that's huge. Because what gets eroded away is your topsoil, that's the most fertile part of your ground you wanna keep it in place. So that's kind of my soap box spin on the whole GMO thing.
[00:32:34]
>> Tom Grover: You've mentioned research and doing reading a lot of reports a couple of times. And so I'm just wondering how often you try to do that? And do you have a particular source that you like to follow up on?
>> Mike Smith: It's not like I go home every night and try to research something because I don't have time for it.
[00:33:13]
But if I have a question about something I do try to get answers to it fairly quickly. And one of the things that I'm finding now and pretty much the Internet is or talking to other farmers or occasionally talking to like the extension people or NC State. [COUGH]
[00:33:40]
>> Mike Smith: The Internet has almost got too much information now, and a lot of it's conflicting information. So as a consumer of that information, when you look at it and you're dissecting it, you've gotta try to determine well, who's right? And you gotta qualify, it's almost like you've got to do your research on the background of the information before your make a decision sometimes.
[00:34:10]
And to me that's cumbersome and it's needless.
>> Mike Smith: My dad always said, and he sort of said it tongue-in-cheek, but my dad always said that piece of paper will lay there and you can write anything you want to on it. And that's how I think people are taking advantage of that now and they shouldn't.
[00:34:33]
>> Tom Grover: Mm.
>> Mike Smith: Misinformation is too abundant.
>> Tom Grover: How would you describe the local farming community, are you a tight bunch or everyone's just kind of doing their own thing?
>> Mike Smith: It's a little of both.
>> Mike Smith: In this area, in particular, most of the farmers are small farmers. You got a couple of big guys out there but,
[00:35:07]
>> Mike Smith: At various events or times of the year we all can communicate with each other and ask questions of each other. The thing that [COUGH] I see it as a negative but a positive to me but farming community's getting older. I did a research thing last week with a lady from the USDA.
[00:35:36]
And it was basically she was coming in, trying to gather information for the USDA to help with farm bill and allocation. I don't get a nickle of money, I'm not subsidized any at all. That's one of the big differences I see between big farms and small farms. Small farms are subsidized, excuse me, big farms are subsidized, small farms are not.
[00:36:10]
>> Mike Smith: When you go out and you see all these great big green tractors and green combines, I'm not saying these guys don't work hard because they do, but they're subsidized heavily. And they're not in it alone because the people that make that green equipment they make sure that they get paid for it.
[00:36:32]
And the best cash cow is the government, just being honest.
>> Tom Grover: No.
>> Tom Grover: I actually passed a large hay operation on the way over here. To me it was large, I'd not seen any hay operation that expansive before. So I was like wow, [LAUGH] I didn't know this was out this way.
[00:36:59]
>> Mike Smith: Were they already making hay?
>> Tom Grover: No it was just there, I just saw the sign to their farm and what they did. But it was just acres of hay.
>> Mike Smith: Yeah.
>> Tom Grover: But it just surprised me how large it was. And then I thought, well I don't know if I'd be the one that wants to go around cutting that up or bailing it.
[00:37:27]
>> Mike Smith: Well, I've got a, I use a Discbine mower to mow hay with. And I can mow at a rate as long as the ground is not too rough and doesn't have a lot of terraces in it. I can mow at a rate of about nine acres an hour is kind of what I can mow with a single machine.
[00:37:46]
>> Mike Smith: Normally I try to mow it one day, tedder it, which is scatter it out to allow it to dry, and then rake it and bail it the next day. And you gotta have some heat in the ground and some heat in the air, in particular at night time to be able to get it that dry that quick.
[00:38:06]
I suspect this year, with the amount of rain that we've had and how wet everything is right now that there's gonna be a lot of sap in the grass. So it's probably gonna take it a little bit longer this spring, in particular, to dry out, or cure down before you can bale it.
[00:38:25]
We'll see.
>> Tom Grover: Now, do you belong to any farming organizations, or associations?
>> Mike Smith: I don't. I've attended some Cattlemen's Association meetings, which are very good. There's a lot of information. You get to meet a lot of people, and I'm not a big networking person, but you do have networking opportunities to talk to people.
[00:38:55]
And,
>> Mike Smith: People are kind of like me, the farmers that are there, they're an open book. If you've got a question they seem pretty willing to discuss it with you or help you out if they can and that's nice. But I'm really not a member of any kind of organization or anything.
[00:39:16]
It's not that I don't see the value to it. It's,
>> Mike Smith: If I'm gonna support something or be a part of something like that, I wanna be able to give it my best. And I just don't have enough time to give it my best, so I hadn't joined any organization.
[00:39:35]
>> Tom Grover: I saw on your website,
>> Tom Grover: Know Your Farms LLC?
>> Mike Smith: Mm-hm.
>> Tom Grover: That's the first time I'd heard of them. Are you able to tell me just briefly who they are?
>> Mike Smith: They're an organization that's actually gone by the wayside. They, at their inception, Their whole thing was to not only introduce people, but connect families to farms in the local area and they did great.
[00:40:17]
We had farm tours out here, and we're not really set up to do farm tours, like some of these places are. That have got nice wagons, or covered areas and facilities for people, we just don't have all of those things. But one day on the Know Your Farms thing we had 370 people that came out here.
[00:40:41]
And walked around and looked around, and I thought it was great. I mean I sold product to them, we had samples of food. I think I had a brisket one time, and maybe some burgers one time, and sausage one time. We just had different things for people to try, and
[00:41:04]
>> Mike Smith: I'm not real sure, I think the people that kind of found it and established Know Your Farms. Moved away, moved to another part of the state, and the people that took it over. Didn't have the same drive and enthusiasm, and it just fell apart. But it was a good thing when it was going.
[00:41:30]
>> Tom Grover: So just a few more questions here. The first, is there an aspect of farming that people wouldn't consider or it's misunderstood?
>> Mike Smith: I think the aspect of farming that people wouldn't consider, is it's not a real clean job. It's a difficult job.
>> Mike Smith: I'm not gonna say that it's not fun, but you've gotta be willing to not only take some risk.
[00:42:20]
But you've gotta deal with a lot adversity. I don't know that the generations that are coming along, are well-versed at that, or willing to accept it.
>> Mike Smith: As an example, back when we were getting so much rain. I mean nobody has driven through this fence out here in 180 years, and in this last six months, it's happened twice.
[00:42:48]
But I get a phone call from the highway patrol saying somebody driven through the fence, the fence is down. Cows are anxious because the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. And when you create a hundred foot or two hundred foot opening in your fence.
[00:43:08]
One person, the cows aren't going to respect the blue light and the badge out there from the guy. He can stand up and say, wow, wow, you won't do. So I've got to get people mobilized in the middle of the night, when it's pouring down rain. To come out here and keep the cows in place, so that they're not out in the road.
[00:43:29]
And it's never a bright sunny day. It's always a terrible time when somebody runs into the fence. And it does happen more often than I'd like to think about. I leased a farm out here on Tuckaseegee Road from a farmer that's gotten too old. And I got it about three weeks ago, and he made the comment to me when I got it.
[00:43:58]
He said, well, they paved the road now, so people are gonna be going faster and not paying attention. So they're going to drive through the fence more often.
>> Mike Smith: So that's kinda the downside to it. Another downside to it is, you're not gonna make a lot of money at it if you're a small farmer.
[00:44:23]
There's some economies of scale, but also there's subsidy opportunities when you get big enough. That a small guy like me just doesn't have those opportunities. So we're not gonna make as much money as the big guys do, work just as hard and maybe harder. [SOUND] That's the thing about farming, that I enjoy is, like bringing the grand kids out here.
[00:44:53]
And just letting them run around, and do whatever they wanna do and and they love being outside.
>> Mike Smith: The amount of time that so many kids spend with a screen in front of their face. Man, I just love to see them out here, not doing that and just doing stuff we used to do.
[00:45:19]
Getting out here and figuring things out, and discovering things. And running around and getting healthy, it's just fantastic.
>> Tom Grover: You had a previous interview where the individual mentioned a younger generation not picking up the reins. And he was preparing his sons to take over his farm. But in general his observations were, that there's just a whole generation that's missing from farming.
[00:45:58]
And I was wondering if you feel the same way, or you feel different about it?
>> Mike Smith: No, I couldn't agree more, I have two sons and I've got five grandsons. And I'm not sexist, you don't have to be a guy to be a farmer, but,
>> Mike Smith: I don't think any of them are gonna pick it up and do anything with it.
[00:46:26]
And so what's gonna happen to this place when I'm not able to get out here and keep it going anymore. I hope I don't see it in my lifetime, but there will probably be houses out here. I talked to a lot of people and share conversations and concerns similar to what you and I have had today.
[00:46:55]
And you would think that if there was any interest, somebody's mom or dad would say. Well, let's bring Johnny out there and let him learn what you do. That didn't happen, so it's like a lot of things
>> Mike Smith: That are lost arts, I've cured some hams for over a year, and last night I was slicing them to make prosciutto and country ham.
[00:47:30]
But just the ability to cure a ham and feed yourself, it's definitely a lost art.
>> Mike Smith: I'm certain that if anything happens, some sort of catastrophe, or something. The electrical grid goes down, the Internet goes away, or a foreign country attacks us, or anything like that. I can feed myself and my family.
[00:48:02]
>> Mike Smith: Disasters and things like that we've seen a couple of them but it's very isolated, it's very short term. Now if you're in they're impacted by it, it may not be short term. If you can't go buy gasoline and food at the grocery store and things like that, for a couple of weeks, but,
[00:48:24]
>> Mike Smith: It definitely could happen. And I don't know, it would be widespread panic if there was a disaster that took a lot of these creature comforts away from the population because they don't have a clue how to feed themselves. And [COUGH] I heard a gal from California, she's a local chef now, and we were doing a talk together to some school kids in a classroom one time.
[00:49:04]
And she said something that was very profound, and I've used it a lot. She said that feeding yourself is the most intimate thing that you do with your body and you have to do it three times a day. So why don't you do it right?
>> Mike Smith: And I like that.
[00:49:26]
I mean it's just a very no nonsense, common sense thing that people need to consider. When we talk to school kids, we like to talk to, in particular, elementary school kids, because we feel like we can make the biggest impact with them.
>> Mike Smith: But I always tell them get in the kitchen, help mom and dad prepare a meal if they even prepare a meal or they're going out to eat somewhere.
[00:50:01]
Help them prepare a meal and when you make a food decision, to put something in your mouth. If you've got to open a box, or a can, or a jar, or a bag, that's probably not a good food decision. But if you've got to take it, and either slice it, or chop it up, or something like that, that's a much better food decision for you and for your family.
[00:50:29]
>> Mike Smith: Hopefully, it makes a difference to some of these people.
>> Tom Grover: I hope so, too.
>> Tom Grover: So are there any questions you think I should have asked? Or is there anything else you'd like to add?
>> Mike Smith: One other profound statement, and it was actually North Carolina Commissioner of Agriculture.
[00:50:59]
We went to some sort of event that he was there and he was giving a speech, Steve Troxler. [COUGH] And he said that if you think buying gas from a foreign country is expensive, wait till you have to buy food from a foreign country. So I thought that was extremely profound and that's some stuff we gotta start thinking about as a country.
[00:51:36]
>> Mike Smith: Some of the time you can't have your cake and eat it too, you gotta make some decisions. Those decisions may be tough. But I still go back to what I said earlier, I mean, we have got to embrace technology and improve on farming practices because farmers are having to do more with less.
[00:51:58]
We've gotta feed more people with less land. And that's just the reality that we're in right now.
>> Mike Smith: I don't think in my lifetime I'll see houses torn down or roads torn up so that we can grow food in those areas. But I think in my children or grandchildren's lifetime they'll see that happen.
[00:52:26]
>> Tom Grover: So the reverse of what's happening now.
>> Mike Smith: Yeah, got to, you got to feed people.
>> Tom Grover: Yeah, I was just thinking when you're saying that at that stage things are in a world of hurt.
>> Mike Smith: Yeah, I mean, but when it comes to that point, it's gonna almost be too late.
[00:52:53]
>> Tom Grover: Scary stuff.
>> Mike Smith: It is scary stuff. And who the heck are you gonna find that can do this? That can plant a seed and nurture and watch it grow.
>> Mike Smith: I don't know.
>> Tom Grover: Well I appreciate the time and the talk.
>> Mike Smith: Thank for your interest in trying to further what we do, I appreciate it.
[00:53:23]
>> Tom Grover: Absolutely, absolutely.
[tabby title='Captioned Audio'] [tabbyending]Muddy Springs Farm - Jeff Stevens
Farming has been in the family for several generations, and Jeff Stevens grew up around farming. He became the owner-operator of the Muddy Springs Farm in Lincoln County in the 2000s raising beef on the same land that belonged to some of his extended family. The interview consists of Jeff’s personal accounts about farming, how he entered it, and how he manages to run a full-time farm while also working a full-time job with Duke Energy. Jeff speaks about using brewery grains with regular feed for his cattle, in-common land ownership, and the various issues that his, and other small, family-owned farms, face in the current market. Jeff’s wife, Emily, also talks about her role on the farm.
| Time | Subject |
| 0:00:30 | Introdution to Muddy Springs Farm |
| 0:01:00 | In-common and renting acreage |
| 0:04:00 | Raising steers and Wytheville, VA |
| 0:05:50 | Marketing and problems with Farmers' Markets |
| 0:07:20 | Working for Duke at the McGuire Power Station |
| 0:08:20 | An average day |
| 0:09:24 | Family and influences |
| 0:10:25 | Weather and caring for the animals |
| 0:12:10 | Costs and other expenses |
| 0:15:39 | Pause |
| 0:15:40 | Challenges of farming |
| 0:18:20 | Education, learning, and networking |
| 0:20:00 | Organizations and government assistance |
| 0:22:00 | Endangered farms and youth |
| 0:24:33 | Organic farming and using brewery grains |
| 0:26:40 | The support of older farmers |
| 0:27:25 | Pause |
| 0:27:40 | Watching the sideways tornado |
| 0:29:05 | Surprises with steer prices |
| 0:31:15 | Wytheville as a cattle hub |
| 0:33:35 | Future plans and the younger generations |
| 0:38:30 | Additional thoughts about farming |
| 0:40:35 | Farmers' wives and family |
| 0:44:45 | The demands of time |
| 0:46:50 | Popular mentality and final comments |
| 0:50:17 | End of interview |
[00:00:01]
>> Okay, so we are now recording. It is Sunday, March 10th, 2019. Can you state your name, for the record?
>> Jeff Stevens.
>> Okay, and Jeff according to this questionnaire, you live off of Highway 73, in the Lincolnton.
>> Yes.
>> Okay, all right, and this would be then Lincoln County?
[00:00:27]
>> Lincoln County, Iron Station's the city.
>> Okay, is there an actual name for your firm, or is it just-
>> Muddy Springs Farm.
>> Money Springs Farm?
>> Muddy Springs.
>> Muddy Springs, okay. Muddy Springs and you have owned it for roughly 15 years or is that what you had?
[00:00:52]
>> No, it's been, yeah, I guess, it's been about 15 years.
>> Okay, for the record, Jeff's wife Emily is here as well. And it's okay [LAUGH].
All right Muddy Springs farm. Now, you've said this farm was originally part of the Perkins farm, is that correct?
>> Yes.
[00:01:20]
>> Okay, I used to Perkins farm still around or-
>> Yes, they have 60 acres on the right side. And also where their churches on the left.
>> Okay.
>> Used to be got by Perkins land, he give that to the church.
>> Okay.
>> It was got Perkins on don't know where it is I'm not sure the acreage, and one of his daughters married Buzz Real, and he gave Buzz, I think this time it was 20 acres of land.
[00:01:52]
And this right here. But the brick house was included with that area in between, so it made it roughly 20 acres. And then, when Buzz passed away, Carol his daughter, got it. Who married my Papa's brother. Okay, so they had it for several years. And he mainly grew produce on it.
[00:02:17]
And then, my papa and his brother Bud, who owned this land, did an uncommon swap because they owned 50 acres together up on Hill Road. So, Carol swapped Papa cuz Bud had already passed away. So Carol swapped Papa his 50 acres, the uncommon piece for the 15 acres here and then he gave it to me.
[00:02:43]
When I come out of the military in 2005.
>> Okay. I'm not familiar with in common. Can you?
>> Well, when somebody owns land in common, so say you own 50 acres and there's two people owns it. There's no survey marks, it's just owned in common. So, it's not like he owns this piece, you own this piece.
[00:03:08]
You own it together, the whole thing.
>> Okay, all right. So, it says here looking at your records, you actually own 15 acres, but you also ran an additional 80.
>> Yes.
>> Okay.
>> So I have hay fields down Camp Creek Road onto Furnace Road which is right down here on the right.
[00:03:35]
And then Furnace Road is on the end of Camp Creek. You take a right and I have fields on there. And then I have another, the working farm that always own by Noya Grover which has 27 half 14 cows and it's roughly 20 some acres.
>> Okay, what's your main.
[00:04:05]
I guess product for lack of a better word.
>> The main source of income for the farm is, steers that we raise. We either buy them from the sale, or we buy them from a dairy, and bottle feed them, and then raise them out. And we take them to Whitfield, Virginia and sell them there.
[00:04:22]
This year it'll be April first, is when I have 14, roughly eight to 900 pound steers, that are gonna whitful.
>> Okay, do you usually keep about that many in a cycle?
>> Yeah, it varies but would like to increase, but usually around that number, and that's a yearly sale, so I usually turn them over about a year.
[00:04:52]
>> Okay, and the hay that you were referring to, is that really the only agricultural?
>> Yeah, well I grow produce also and sell eggs, but the hay is probably second in the source of income. So ourselves, a lot of it and I keep to feed my accounts.
[00:05:13]
>> Okay, and
>> Do round bales and support those.
>> What kinda produce.
>> We sell green onions. We've sold corn, watermelons. Just varies from every-
>> Papers, potatoes, peanuts.
>> It just varies, depends on what we feel like growing that year. We grow everything we can for ourselves and then we usually focus on one thing, in a bigger area that we wanna.
[00:05:48]
>> Okay, market wise for your eggs and for your produce, do you like to gotta certain areas? Or is it just, do you advertise?
>> Eggs are usually word of mouth I've been selling them so long people come to me, so they're easily sold at my work, or here.
[00:06:10]
And the produce is usually sold at Jerry's One Stop, which is right up the road here. It's a service station. We usually don't actually we never mess with farmers markets.
>> Okay, is there any reason why?
>> It's too time consuming.
>> Okay.
>> You get more money for your product, but it eats so much time up that you lose in the long run.
[00:06:37]
>> Okay.
>> And really, there's a lot of people that sell their items at the farmers market that are kinda they advertise it to the in such a way that is not really what it is. So, like where they would say this is organic, or they give their items from another grower So, that's also another thing because the things that we sell are the things that we raise in.
[00:07:04]
I don't know exactly how to explain.
>> So they say it's local, but it isn't?
>> I don't know that for a fact, I just don't mess with them.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah.
>> All right, is farming part time?
>> Yes.
>> It is?
>> Yeah my full time job?
[00:07:25]
>> Yeah.
>> I work at McGuire Nuclear Station.
>> Okay. That's the one just outside Huntersville correct?
>> Yes.
>> Okay And would be there.
>> I'm a planner, plan various jobs scopes for people to go work on equipment in the plant. I'm on see which is instrumentation and controls and electrical and electronic.
[00:08:00]
Plan or so.
>> Okay, and how long have you been with Goo.
>> 14 years 14, yeah.
>> Okay, was that pretty much right out of the military as well.
>> Yeah, they actually called me and from military, I flew in for interview and dress history, a hard man for that.
[00:08:18]
>> Okay, so how would you describe your average day?
>> Busy.
>> [LAUGH]
>> So I get up at roughly 4:30 in the morning and go to work, I get home roughly 4:30 in the evening. And I work until the job's done, which is wintertime is after dark.
[00:08:43]
I usually get done anywhere from probably around 7:30, I guess you'd say. About three hours, depending on what I have to do, but roughly three hours. Also, as you can see, we milk Nubian-goats, so.
>> I saw the goats coming in.
>> Well, those are my neighbors'.
>> Those are your neighbours'?
[00:09:05]
>> Mine are down there, yeah.
>> Okay.
>> So it's a fairly busy day, a lot of people wonder why I do it, it just becomes a part of you, I guess, it becomes ingrained in you. And you just don't know any difference, I don't know what I do, if I didn't do that, so.
[00:09:23]
>> Did you grow up on the farm?
>> My great uncle is a biggest influence in farming. He actually worked, drive horses, and he did have some trackers, but he did a lot of horse work. Made a lot of hay, made hay everywhere, so I guess, he was a probably primer for me to get into farming.
[00:09:46]
My dad raised cows and we also showed quarter horses. So I've been around it my whole life, which the horse part never stuck, I guess, I mean, I can ride, and I can rope, and I can do all that stuff, but It just never appealed to me to stay in it.
[00:10:03]
Raising cows is what I took to you know and goats raising Western Nubians. I always had chickens, I can’t remember when I got first chick, my first chickens. Forever, I mean, I was young so, yeah, I've always done it.
>> All right, so you have busy days long days, Let's talk a little about, some of the issues you've run across with farming, let's start with say, weather conditions.
[00:10:46]
It's been raining a lot lately,so how does a lot of wet weather affect things, how does dry weather affect things?
>> Well, farmers had the old saying, a dry season will worry you, a wet season will bankrupt you. So mainly for road cropping and grain farming, but with raising animals, it being this way, it's not good at all.
[00:11:16]
So it's more difficult to maneuver machinery around a farm, you tear out everything, you go across. The conditions, the animals are in, you always worrying about, because where cold conditions. Well, it can make them sick, it can cause disease to come in on a herd that's vulnerable from poor conditions, it's a battle.
[00:11:43]
Trying to stay ahead of the worms, the diseases, and trying to keep it somewhat manageable. I mean, this year and last year has been, nobody I've talked to, no matter what ages never remember as it being this way. So it's been very difficult, especially the first of this year.
[00:12:08]
>> Okay, equipment, well, let me rephrase this, what have you found to be the biggest cost?
>> Well, your tractors are gonna be probably your biggest expense, if you're big farming. And everything that you have to have to do it, maintaining is very expensive also because they're diesel engines, they're heavy built, everything is costly.
[00:12:45]
Maintenance is more, because diesel is, but it takes several tractors just to keep an operation going. So I would say tractors are definitely your biggest expense next to bailing equipment.
>> Okay, what about seed or feed cost, are they-
>> Well, I haven't bought my fertilizer this year, so I can't tell you about fertilizer cost yet.
[00:13:13]
Seed cost, I haven't really bought any seed this year either. I mean, I can tell you that it's been better in the last few years around 2017, it was, maybe. No, maybe it was further back than that, the dry season we had, I can't remember when that was.
[00:13:37]
It might've been 2007, fertilizer was way higher, you remember when the gas got high, and everything got high?
>> Yeah. Fertilizer was ridiculous then, you couldn't make any money, so from there to now, it's really, it's come back down, but it's still not-
>> That was the year that we made 17 bales of hay from the front and the back.
[00:13:58]
>> Yeah, that was probably 2007.
>> Yeah.
>> I can't remember, but anyway.
>> That entire season was-
>> It was a really dry year, but stuff receives, I have really increased in props due to technology also. See technologies through the rough, but you pay really dearly for it.
[00:14:23]
And they've actually patented seeds to where you cannot, even if you grow something on your land it's not yours. You can't take that seed and grow more plants from it, because it is patented. The technology is patented, so that's considered the theft.
>> No, kind of wrong.
>> Yeah, yeah, corn long, you can't grow corn from not GMO, you can't grow GMO hybrid corn you grow, but you can't soy beans.
[00:14:55]
And what you know, and I know on soybeans, that's a big deal and there's been farmers that's been busted. And I've heard fines up to $80,000 on some of that stuff, they had to pay back the cost and fines on top of it.
>> Wow.
>> Yeah.
>> And so it being, that's pretty large crop industry around here, is it?
[00:15:21]
>> Yeah, Blanton Farms, I believe, was the one that, they actually took seeds from what they grew the year previous. And then they sold them, they sold that crop and they had to basically pay back the crop and fines on top of it.
>> Mm, I'm gonna pause it for just a second, we?
[00:15:40]
Okay, we are back. All right, let's see here, what were we talking about last?
>> Seed technology.
>> Seed technology, that's right, okay. What other kind of obstacles or challenges have you faced Well believe it or not, it's more difficult for a farmer my size than a farmer that farms 10,000 acres.
[00:16:10]
Because the margins are so tight on your profit you can't just, something breaks, go spend a bunch of money. You have to think outside the box sometimes on repairs. You have to a lot of stuff yourself, you have to learn. If you're going to farm you got to be a somewhat of a scientist, you got to be a mechanic, you got to be a welder, electrician.
[00:16:37]
I wouldn't say you gonna know all those aspect but you gotta know a little bit about everyone of them just enough to get by. So, it's a rare occupation and a fact that how much you have to know in order to just succeed. And it's hard for people my size because we can't really stay up on the latest equipment.
[00:17:05]
We can't buy bulk fertilizer, and seed, and save that extra money. It's difficult and that's why you really don't see any small farms anymore. Because there's not enough margin there for them to make a living. And that's why anybody my size even up to two, 300 acres has a job and also farms.
[00:17:32]
>> Are the two or 300 acres, would you consider those medium size or are those still small?
>> Those still small farms of today's standards.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah, back many years ago I guess you'd say 40 acres was a small farm and two, 300 acres was a large farm.
[00:17:53]
But technology has changed with the equipment. And you can get over a lot more acres a lot faster now, You can harvest way more acres than you used to be able to. So in order to form machinery that it takes to do that you have to have 10,000 acres to make an income plus pay for all that stuff.
[00:18:23]
>> So, you don't have any formal schooling for farming. It's more something that you just learn by growing up in it, is that correct?
>> Yeah, I mean, you really don't know what you learned, growing up, you just kinda remember, you know it. I mean, it's hard for me to sit here and tell you, well, I learned this doing it with him, and I learned this with him.
[00:18:53]
It's just stuff you pick up, and you learn from watching and listening to the old timers. And you learn by screwing stuff up and having to fix it. So making mistakes is probably one of the biggest teachers. But no I, no formal training and I just kind of learned as I went.
[00:19:15]
>> Okay, do you have you follow any kind of magazines or literature with latest techniques or information?
>> I'll try to yeah, I read articles on the internet and I see some magazines. Of course I think the biggest source of information is talking to other farmers and because when you got a big group of people everybody tries something different at some point.
[00:19:44]
Well, that's experience that you can take and keep for the future. So, I would say talking with older farmers and specially older ones are the biggest source of information.
>> Okay, that ties in nicely to what I was going to ask next. Which is do you belong to any kind of farming organizations or groups or a co-operative or anything like that?
[00:20:12]
>> No, no. Say I don't grind farm or dairy farm, which we do have dairy goats, but that's really small. So it's not big enough that commercial. In order to get into those areas you have to be in an area that produces a lot of something or big enough that you can be in something like that like a coop.
[00:20:38]
So just an informal group of people was really the only thing we had, just other people doing the same thing that I am.
>> Do you, are you able to find any helps for information by say, county officials or-
>> Yeah.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah, when I started using brewer grain I talked to the I don't know, I guess she's considered a field agent or state agent about it and storage methods of how I could install it and keep it for a longer term because it's wet.
[00:21:22]
So, yeah I've used them, I've even had, I can't remember his name, but had a guy who used to come out and sample my fields, soil samples.
>> Okay. They were pretty helpful and supportive?
>> Yeah. I mean, super nice, super helpful, those are good people. I've taken soil samples to the assistance center to have them shipped off.
[00:21:49]
I've asked questions there. And they always try to help you where they can. My experience has been with super nice people.
>> Okay. There's been a lot of change just from what I've seen over the last ten, 15 years with farmings in farm land. Have you seen the same thing, and how would you describe it?
[00:22:20]
>> I would say a lot of the changes I've seen is farming, and farm lands in general, they're becoming endangered. A lot of cookie cutter houses are being put up, neighborhoods It's eating up a lot of farm land, and especially if you're inside of an area that's close to a big city like Charlotte.
[00:22:45]
I've seen just on Highway 73 how they've been creeping up with housing developments. And then of course, you've got the younger generation, you take people my age, I'm 38. You have several in there that want to farm and do stuff like that but then you jump down to people that's maybe 20 it's way less in that generation that wants to do it.
[00:23:09]
It's hard work, it's little pay, it's long hours. And they just don't see the sense of it. Why do this when you can just go to a store and buy what you need and sat on my backside for the rest of the time. You know, so. Yeah. It's, I would say by the time I'm a old person, there's probably going to be very few farms my size left.
[00:23:37]
>> Which do you think the greater threat, the lack of interest or the encroaching of the development?
>> I think it's a combination of the two. People have lost most of what it takes to survive without an infrastructure like the grocery stores and the supermarkets, and so.
>> I think ignorance of what farming does for people and how it helps, and how it helps people think farming and environments.
[00:24:06]
But really, farming and environment's good because you will not find a person more concerned about their land than a farmer. They always worry about what he's putting this on, he's putting that on it. Well, a farmer is gonna take care of his land better than anybody else, because his actual income comes from that ground.
[00:24:26]
So I think it's a combination of both.
>> Do you do any organic farming, or do you try to-
>> No, no, I use chemical fertilizers. But I do feed, I guess you would consider it, well, I can't say for a fact it's organic, the grain, because I don't know the other farms it comes from.
[00:24:53]
I know one brewery I pick up from is organic, their farms. But the other two that I pick up from, I can't speak to. So I know one-third of it is organic that I feed, but as far as my fields and stuff, I use chemical fertilizers.
>> And we don't advertise as organic.
[00:25:14]
>> No.
>> Okay, no, I was just asking. I wasn't sure if it was strictly organic or if you were just trying to be as organic as you could.
>> I try to be, and I use a lot of the old ways. I take all the manure from the cows and the hay wastage and that gets put back on the fields.
[00:25:42]
And the chicken houses get cleaned out, and that gets back on the fields, and same with the goat lots. So I try to use as much, I guess you would call it organic fertilizers. I can, but there's just not enough with the number of animals I have to cover 80 acres of land.
[00:26:02]
So if I could use chicken litter, that would be great. But there you go again, the chicken litter, it might not be organic. Well, more than likely it's not, because the feed ate chickens was commercially grown. And I can about assure you it's not, because they're gonna buy from the cheapest they can get in order to make a profit with their chickens.
[00:26:25]
So it's hard to do organic. I don't know anybody around here that's 100% organic, but that doesn't mean they're not, I just don't know of any.
>> Okay, is there a core group of farmers that you like to go to if you have questions?
>> Yeah, there's two older gentlemen that I usually go to for questions and stuff.
[00:26:56]
They more than likely have seen a lot more. They've seen many situations I have yet to encounter. They're twice my, well, not quite twice my age, but they're a good bit older than me. So I try to always go to the people who's been doing it a lot longer than I have to get some information about what could happen, what's going on, what's happening, sick cows or feeding rations, stuff like that.
[00:27:33]
>> Again? Okay, now we're back. So in your experience so far, are there any interesting or funny stories that you might be able to share?
>> Golly, I'll tell you, if you would have asked me that, I probably would. [LAUGH] But-
>> What was the question?
>> On the spot, I can't really think of one.
[00:28:02]
>> If there were any interesting or funny stories to tell in the time that you've had a farm.
>> Well, I can tell you one thing. We actually was building a loft for that barn when a tornado actually come by the front of our house sideways. It was spinning.
[00:28:22]
The tail wasn't down on the ground. And I actually wrote that in the loft. I forget what year that was but-
>> My stepdad was building the loft. Yeah, me and him was doing it.
>> Yeah.
>> And a tornado went through.
>> Yeah, it was like sideways, it was crazy, it was spinning.
[00:28:37]
>> It was coming from here.
>> It was spinning but it was like this in the air. And so it went down the road, maybe I think it was eight or nine miles and touched down, and destroyed all kinda stuff in Huntersville. Man, I tell you it was, [LAUGH] it's hard to on the spot to think of stuff.
[00:29:05]
>> Well, have you been surprised by say, how successful some things were, or maybe not as successful as you were hoping, whether it's a crop or some kind of livestock?
>> Well, one thing that does surprise me is, like I said, I take my cows to Whitfield, Virginia every year.
[00:29:30]
And [COUGH] they're the ones that are fairly good size, they seem to. When a cow gets up to a certain weight, it will actually drop in prosper pound because it's one, they're looking for grazing stock, which is a certain target weight. And two, it's just gonna be less cuz the margin another farmer could buy that cow, and make money off of it, or steer, excuse me, is really small, right?
[00:30:00]
So if you buy a 900 pounds steer, at that point they're really growing a lot slower. So you'd be crazy to buy a 900 pound steer out of a feed lot like I have and put it on grass. You might get 2, 300 more pounds in a season and you have no money.
[00:30:18]
So the short ones, like the ones that, I've always got two or three that are smaller. And some are like way smaller, and I can't tell you why, if it's genetics or whatever from the dairy farms I buy from. But there's always two or three. And it never fails that these cows are all the same, steers, are all the same age.
[00:30:38]
Those little ones, that they not perform well at all at my place will bring way more money in Virginia because they're smaller. Yeah, it always surprises me. I'm like, these are low performance steers, and you would think people wouldn't. You see a group of steers come in, nine times out of ten, they've been raised together.
[00:31:04]
So, I always found that interesting that I would get way more money for those. And they're probably not gonna grow worth a hill of beans, so.
>> Now, how did you start going with Whitfield? Is that like a center for the cattle trade or?
>> It's a good hub to sell.
[00:31:28]
>> Anything from, it's really good if you've got 5, 600 pound steers, because it's a mountainous region. They don't really have a lot of road crop, they pasture raise a lot of beef. So they're looking for 5, 6, 700 pound steers, to put out there and graze for a season, and then take them to sell and make a little money.
[00:31:53]
But it's also a good place to take 900 pound steers to get them up north. Where your big feed lot or meat producers will have buyers. So those will more than likely go, they might go to a finishing lot to just pack on it. You can't put them on a finishing lot pack on a couple more hundred pounds in a month or two or three and then take them to the processor or they might go straight to processor.
[00:32:23]
So it seems like the more north you get, the better price you usually get.
>> Okay, what about going farther west or south, have you heard anything?
>> South, you don't wanna go south, cuz if you listen to people nationally, when they talk about cheap cows, cheap steers, they're talking southeast.
[00:32:42]
I don't know why. I think a lot of it might have to do with, well, I don't know why. But we're always considered cheap cows or steers in this area. So if you take them out west you're not really going to, Make what you would shipping them. You know what I mean?
[00:33:07]
I forget how many it takes to fill a tractor trailer but by the time you pay a driver and you send them out there your margin's about eat up. And like I said, we're considered cheap on cows or steers in this area, so as soon as they find out where they're coming from, they're not gonna be paying the price that you want.
[00:33:30]
So you'll do better going north.
>> Okay. So going forward, and this is kind of a three-part question, but it's easy to remember. So where do you see this farm in 5 years, 10 years, and then 20?
>> Five years, I hope to continue to grow. I've got two young boys that I hope to see start coming into it.
[00:33:57]
In five years, Joseph will be well old enough to start handling machinery. He'll be big enough to start handling hay, which he is now, really I mean, he can handle hay now but he'll be very proficient at it by then. Ten years, I hope to be where I need to be as far as size for me to start easing out of the operation.
[00:34:25]
Because in 20 years I hope to see them take over what I've built here. And if they wanna grow it from there that's up to them, but at a minimum I'd like to see them run it. If not, I guess when I die they'll have a bunch of stuff to sell.
[00:34:42]
[LAUGH]
>> Hopefully they won't have the same mentality that most kids that inherit farms have because really that sense of ownership and pride that our older generations like our grandparents had is not really existent. But there is a very clear difference between our kids' views and opinion of things versus their friends maybe that don't live on a farm.
[00:35:11]
So that's always interesting to me to see because kids they'll just tell you how it is, but-
>> Well, to get to where I'm at now in 14 years, I pretty well had to scratch, claw and dig for everything I had. So my biggest goal was to turn something over to them that will make money for them and they won't have to dig as hard as I did.
[00:35:39]
It's kind of like a baby starting to walk. You crawl, them first few years you're crawling, and it just creeps. It's like, I gotta have money for this, gotta have money for this, you gotta say, well, what's more important? Do I want a tractor or do I want a skid steer?
[00:35:59]
Do I need a loader, do I need a newer baler? And then, in ten years, you're like, well, I really need more land cuz I got all this equipment, so you start picking up more land. And so at, say, 10 years, which is the mark I'm around at 14, 15 years, I'm starting to really see it as far as my margins there, my profitability's there, my equipment has really come a long ways.
[00:36:28]
I've got a newer loader tractor, I say newer, but it's 2008. So to me, that's a newer tractor. I got a good loader. I've got the basic essentials I need to operate my operation. So I'm hoping 20 years from now, Bigger, hopefully I'd like to double basically what I'm doing, and then-
[00:37:00]
>> Double your acreage?
>> Double my profit.
>> Profit, okay.
>> Yeah, 80 acres is pretty good. 80 acres, I can push out a lot more cows or steers than I'm pushing out now. So I really don't think I need to get a whole lot more land. I'm probably good on land.
[00:37:16]
Facilities I need to upgrade. I really need a freestyle barn. So that's something we're gonna look at in the future. I got about five acres in the back that's really relatively flat so we're looking at some kind of infrastructure there, a type of feed lot to get them away from the house.
[00:37:36]
It's never been a problem till this year. It's just been a ridiculously wet season, and last year was a wet season. So it's try to control erosion and try to control the smell, get them back. So that would be a goal I'd like to see in the future.
[00:37:57]
>> Okay, have any of your other farming friends, mentors, have they mentioned anything about the younger generation in their families?
>> Pretty well nonexistent as far as farming. I really can't tell you last time I seen a kid that was 18, 20 years old. I mean, I'm sure they're out there.
[00:38:23]
Just me personally, I haven't seen that kid 18, 20 years old with an interest in farming.
>> All right, are there any questions that you feel I should ask? Or is there any additional thoughts that you have that you'd like to share that, say, you want other people to know about the farming?
[00:38:49]
>> Well, I would say farming, most people who farm, their personality, I mean, I'm this way, but a lot of people who farm they're like this. They're kind of closed loop. They don't really get out in the groups like you're talking about. But really the only reason that I'm still in business today and really more profitable than I've ever been in my life is because I actually started reaching out and talking to other farmers.
[00:39:20]
I got into a small group of farmers that through talking to them that I can get spent grain from breweries in Charlotte, which is awesome because the price is just phenomenal and the availability is really good. And so I wouldn't be in business today and still going like I am, if it wasn't for that fact.
[00:39:47]
So if I could share anything with somebody or give them advice I would say get out there, talk to people that are your size farming
>> Because talking to big farmers are really not gonna get you anywhere. Most big farmers ain't gonna give you time of day. They think you're not worth the time or effort because you're so small.
[00:40:10]
And believe it or not, there is a hierarchy in farming, so the big boys don't usually talk to the little boys. So, you need to find people that's relative to your size, that's been doing what you wanna do for a long time and just soak in as much knowledge as you can, because the more you learn the less mistakes you'll make and the more money you'll make.
[00:40:34]
>> Alright, very good. Those are all the questions I have for you at the moment. So with that, I thank you for your time. I appreciate it. If there's anything you'd like to share later on, just feel free to reach out to me.
>> I totally forgot to mention that his wife is extremely understanding of his time needs at the farm, you left that out.
[00:40:58]
>> Okay. [LAUGH] Well no.
>> That's okay.
>> I know it's in there now.
>> It is.
>> It's in the archives.
>> I think you raise a fair point, and if you're willing for me to ask?
>> Sure.
>> Did you grow up on a farm or
[00:41:15]
>> I did not grow up on a farm.
>> So, how have you adjusted to living on one?
>> Well now at this point, I don't do much with the farm at all. But before this point, up until probably two years ago, I would go out there in the morning and he would be at work.
[00:41:34]
I would bottle feed all of the calves. He would bottle feed them in the evening time, because they needed to be feed two times a day. Any of the births that were happening on the farm, if he was at work, somebody needed to be, since I was home it made it more, what is the word?
[00:41:52]
>> Well you was here, so you took care of a lot of stuff while I was working.
>> Yeah.
>> And you have to have somebody here, if you're gonna probably feeds calves, or you're gonna have goats that have babies. If you're raising them, you're gonna need to have somebody home the majority of the time.
[00:42:10]
Cuz stuff can go wrong fast.
>> Really fast.
>> And they can be over before you can deal with it.
>> Well there have been several times to where we'll be down at the barn, and Willow was six and a half her baby, and he had to go run down there because she couldn't fish her baby out.
[00:42:25]
So he had to pull the baby out, where had he not been here, we would have lost the baby for sure. With a high potential to have lost the mom also. So those things that require direct attention, it's really good to have that I was home and able to do that.
[00:42:43]
Cuz it does take a lot of his time. He goes to work full time, comes home, eats dinner, and is down at the barn.
>> In summertime, it's work till usually after dark, I mean [COUGH] usually 9:30, 10 o'clock, I mean. Cuz you're doing hayseeds, and you're planting, or you're doing tailage, trying to get if you're wanting to do sudex, or rye, or millet.
[00:43:10]
I mean, those are all summer grasses that you realm June, first of May is Starsky and hop and that's when high season comes in. And I don't really stop until about September.
>> In the boys, the last two years the boys have really drastically been huge helps on the farm, Joseph could run this entire operation.
[00:43:34]
He has really learned a lot, wouldn't you say?
>> Yeah, he's come on a long way.
>> He drives the truck while we get hay. He drives the truck around with the trailer on it.
>> He learned to drive the druck in my hay fields.
>> Yeah, he can feed all of the animals, he can water all the animals He can give direction to Hannah of things that need to be done, which is really a great help for them, because Joseph is only 11.
[00:44:00]
So, probably for the last two years, he's been like not since he was nine been able to really do anything that was needed to be done.
>> And Hunter, the youngest one he gathers eggs, cleans them and packages them for sale. So, he's involved also. Joseph takes care of the livestock guardian animals, the dogs.
[00:44:24]
And he helps with all the chores. So, I'm getting older and slower. I'm not that old, I'm 38 but I'm definitely not 20 any more I can feel that. So, it's natural and it works out about right that your kids start coming on about time you start going down.
[00:44:40]
So, [LAUGH] I can tell they're really taking up my slack.
>> Was there anything else you'd like to share about being the life of a farmer?
>> We ain't get vacation much.
>> Right, that is a frustration. And I think that if it weren't for the fact that we have the four great pyrenees, we have four great livestock, our dogs.
[00:45:05]
And it's not that they're not the friendliest thing, cuz they're not unfriendly. But they're bred to be, livestock guard dogs. So, it's difficult to find people that they will accept to feed them because they're.
>> They're really big.
>> Duke is like 180 pounds and his legs are like three feet long.
[00:45:26]
He's a monster. They're really big, and so before we had them, it wasn't very difficult to find people to feed up with this. Because we just had cows, and the goats, and they could just go in there, and it wasn't a big problem. But they're not letting nobody in there.
[00:45:42]
So now, they're very intimidating, and it's difficult to find people so that we can people to watch them so that we can go on vacation. It's pretty much all I have. And I'm like a good wife for doing all that, cuz I wasn't raised on a farm. You can second that.
[00:46:04]
>> Yeah, you've done well adjusting to the situation. [LAUGH]
>> All right [LAUGH] well I appreciate you both, let me go ahead and,
>> I do have one more thing to say.
>> Yes?
>> And this is actually really serious thing, I think that it is really interesting for the amount of food contamination issues that are all in the supermarkets, and recalls, and all of those types of things.
[00:46:39]
There are certain people that have the mindset that, like his mother, I will not eat food unless it comes out of a Saran Wrap package from the store. And a lot of people have that, if it comes if there's eggs coming from my barn, they're different from the eggs that come from the grocery store.
[00:46:58]
Do you understand what I'm saying?
>> A little bit.
>> People have that opinion, that they are not the same eggs.
>> Okay.
>> Does that make sense?
>> Because they're so accustomed to seeing it in the package.
>> Right, it's like a huge disconnect between, where you're food actually comes from versus a farm that raises cows, that butchers their cows, takes them to packaging and they're in this white packaged wrap, versus gonna the store where it's in that styrofoam thing, with that little pad and then the cellophane around it.
[00:47:34]
There's a huge disconnect where really it's the same thing, but one just skips all of that middle man mess and whatever they do to it. And then it's just.
>> Well I think ours is better. I think it's better really.
>> Well, I mean it is, that's what I'm saying.
[00:47:49]
But there's like a disconnect of people that I think, that if it doesn't come from a grocery store, then it's of different quality.
>> You can take a farm raised look like small farm raised beef or eggs. They're always going to be more flavor and richer because, small farms will take care of the animals better and they'll get more foof, they usually have more space.
[00:48:15]
So, overall just better conditions. So that's the difference, I mean that's why when you crack an egg open from a local farmer it's like almost orange. It's so rich, the yolk, and when you eat beef from a local farmer and it's got more robust taste and it's got less fat, it's because the cow was fed better.
[00:48:43]
Commercial is all about the cheapest, farmers, so that's the exact opposite of what is small farms are
>> What is your opinion on the farm to pork restaurants that are popping up
>> I think it's awesome, I think it's great you know one of the people in my group they actually are hooked up now with a brewery, and they're producing the beef for them to cook on the grill, so it's awesome.
[00:49:16]
And that's beef that was raised from their spent grain, so there's no waste, I mean it's very sustainable. People's not gonna stop drinking beer, that's out. So, you're always gonna have fade and so that they get one that for the bear microprocessor 100% gets used everything, the cow makes meat, meat gets eaten so
[00:49:41]
>> Well and really the cycle is even more fine tuned in that, so they we're uses the grain, the cows eat the grain, the chicken scratch the grain. Or is there, through their poop, the chickens eat the gray nuts not digested through that. And then the chickens are also getting fed, so it's really like a multilevel system.
[00:50:02]
Right, that was smart what I just said
>> [LAUGH]
Okay, all right, any last comments or questions?
>> It was great, I enjoyed it. Thank you for coming.
>> Thank you much.
[tabby title='Captioned Audio'] [tabbyending]Ferebee Farm - James Ferebee
James Ferebee is a 20-year-old white male and owner of Ferebee Farm, which he started in 2011. He began farming commercially in 2015 and raises heritage sheep and pigs, as well as chickens and ducks. James uses the rotational pasture farming method, favored by farmer Joel Salatin of Polyface Farm in Virginia. In high school he was a member of 4-H and completed a farm internship with his veterinarian.
| Time | Subject |
| 0:00:11 | Introduction |
| 0:00:23 | James discusses how long he has been farming |
| 0:00:46 | High school 4H Program |
| 0:01:29 | How we got started farming |
| 0:03:24 | Livestock on Ferebee Farms |
| 0:05:50 | Daily chores and seasonal differences in farm work |
| 0:07:59 | Joel Salatin and the regenerative and sustainable agriculture movement |
| 0:12:05 | Livestock movement keeps pastures healthier, reduces diseases |
| 0:15:25 | Consumer demand for naturally raised product from small farms |
| 0:18:14 | Health and quality benefits from pasture raised livestock |
| 0:23:07 | Sheep’s wool: weather protection and shearing |
| 0:25:36 | Dealing with rainy and cold weather with goats, chickens, and sheep |
| 0:29:34 | Fighting internal parasites in livestock |
| 0:31:27 | Marketing challenges in the region, competing with large farms |
| 0:33:19 | Climate benefits of the Carolina piedmont area |
| 0:36:09 | Williamsburg Packing Company for butchering |
| 0:37:03 | Ferebee Farms vendor locations |
| 0:37:27 | Wool and yarn production and sale |
| 0:38:53 | Shearing sheep and being self taught |
| 0:40:31 | USDA vs. state meat inspections for sale |
| 0:44:15 | Expanding getting Ferebee Farms product to consumers |
| 0:47:51 | Working with the Catawba Fresh Market |
| 0:49:26 | South Carolina and Federal incentives and education |
| 0:52:51 | Public agricultural ignorance, people don’t understand where their food comes from |
| 0:57:19 | Looking forward and the future of Ferebee Farms |
[00:00:10]
>> Louanne Hoverman: This is Louanne Hoverman, graduate student at UNC Charlotte, interviewing James Ferebee of Ferebee Farms. James?
>> James Ferebee: Hey, how's it going?
>> Louanne Hoverman: So how long have you been farming?
>> James Ferebee: Well, I have been farming.
>> James Ferebee: So-called commercially as a business since 2015. I've been raising livestock since 2011.
[00:00:36]
Started out as a 4-H project, and it just kinda grew from there.
>> Louanne Hoverman: So what is the 4-H program in high school?
>> James Ferebee: Sure, 4-H is a program for youth from, I believe, it's the age of five all the way up through the end of high school. And so there's a lot of stuff that's involved in 4H.
[00:00:59]
There's the farming aspect, but there's also other projects as well. But the idea is to, it's an additional learning tool to teach kids about agriculture. As far as the livestock projects, let kids be able to have hands-on experience with animals, with agriculture, with growing things. So it's a really neat program that they're doing out with that.
[00:01:27]
>> Louanne Hoverman: How did you get started farming?
>> James Ferebee: Well, I got started when we had already been gardening ever since I was little. We had chickens and we had some friends who had goats and their goats had babies. And they gave us a couple of babies, and I guess that piqued my interest in livestock and farming in general.
[00:01:51]
>> Louanne Hoverman: So just having babies is all, a couple of goat babies is all it took to really decide to take that leap to?
>> James Ferebee: Well, at first not necessarily. At first, it was just my assigned chore to take care of the baby goats. But as with any animal especially baby animals, you can become attached to him.
[00:02:10]
And I began to really enjoy taking care of the goats. And so I got more goats and grew my goat herd from there. And then after an internship with my veterinarian during my senior year in high school I worked with him on his farm. He has a farm down in Fort Lawn, South Carolina that's a things farm.
[00:02:37]
And so he raises sheep, pigs, and cattle and poultry. And so that got me interested in some other aspects of the livestock. And after several years with the dairy goats I kind of decided I didn't really want to do that as a business. Just because of the intensive care that dairying requires throughout the year.
[00:03:04]
And so I started looking more into raising livestock for meat. And I got my first couple of pigs. We raised those just for the family pork, and I got started with my sheep as well.
>> Louanne Hoverman: What kind of livestock do you raise?
>> James Ferebee: Well, my primary focus is my sheep, so I'm primarily a shepherd.
[00:03:29]
I raise Gulf Coast sheep. The Gulf Coast sheep are a landrace breed that originated In the southeastern United States. They're descended from sheep that were left here about 500 years ago by European explorers. And so they adapted to the environment of the Southeast with minimal human selection. So they're a much hardier breed that has high resistance to heat, a high parasite resistance.
[00:03:57]
And they thrive in a sub-tropical climate much better than [INAUDIBLE] breeds. So [INAUDIBLE], their numbers dropped about 80 years ago whenever modern medicine came around for livestock. And enabled [INAUDIBLE] European breeds to survive. And so they're currently a very rare breed, and it's slowly slowly starting to show signs of recovering.
[00:04:36]
And so I'm working with other breeders throughout the region to preserve this breed of livestock. And then the other livestock that I raise, I have a small number of goats, I'd kept a few around for personal milk consumption. So I have some Nigerian Dwarf and Oberhasli dairy goats.
[00:04:56]
And then I raise feeder pigs throughout the year as well. I don't usually raise any particular breed, usually mixes and crosses of heritage breeds. And then with our poultry, our laying hens are various heritage breeds. And then our meat herds are just the regular commercial broiler chickens and white turkeys that we get from the hatchery.
[00:05:26]
And we raise them out on pasture to provide all-natural pastured beyond organic meat.
>> Louanne Hoverman: Okay, can you describe a typical day on the farm?
>> James Ferebee: Sure.
>> Louanne Hoverman: And I think we may need to separate this kind of seasonally. Because I think when it's mating season's gonna be a little bit different than when it's maybe not mating season.
[00:05:49]
>> James Ferebee: Sure, absolutely, I'm not currently farming full time. So right now I have another part time job as well as the farm is not quite big enough to provide a full income at the moment. So usually day in day out is just regular morning and evening chores. So I'll come out, feed and water the animals, check on everybody, [INAUDIBLE], which is [INAUDIBLE] season, there are babies being born.
[00:06:17]
So I'm keeping a close eye on our flock of ewes, checking to see if any new babies are born. Making sure that the babies that have already been born are thriving, getting enough to eat, and that they're doing well. During the summer when our flock is out on pasture, they are moved to fresh pasture every one or two days.
[00:06:40]
So they're moving around fairly frequently around on our property and on our neighbors' properties that are being leased during the summer time. And so the electric fencing that we have out here in our lambing pen is, it's a portable electric fencing. So that way we can move it around on a daily or once every other day basis.
[00:07:06]
And we attach a solar electric fence energizer to it so that way we don't have to be tied to a AC electricity source. And so that requires a little bit more day to day or weekly work than this time of year. So usually what we'll do, we'll move them around, move them to a fresh set of pasture.
[00:07:32]
And go ahead and set up the next section that they're gonna be in the next day to facilitate the ease of movement there. And so as they move around we just gauge how much grass they're eating. So that way they're getting plenty to eat and not overgrazing or undergrazing any particular area.
[00:07:54]
>> Louanne Hoverman: What made you decide to add different types of livestock to the farm?
>> James Ferebee: Well a lot of it, I guess when I was getting started I was introduced to Joel Salatin of Polyface Farms up in Virginia. And he's really We've been a pioneer and a major thinker in the regenerative and sustainable agriculture movement.
[00:08:19]
So conventional agriculture, they want you to raise extremely large amounts of animals inside confined areas, and move them through as quickly as possible. So that's how our modern food system works. Most farmers make pennies on the dollar from the products that you buy at the grocery store. Most of the money that you're spending is not going to the farmer who grew the food.
[00:08:51]
It's going to the middle men, the packers, the people who put I think cereal. I have heard that the companies that create the cardboard for the cereal boxes get more out of that dollar than the farmers who grew the grain. And so I didn't really want to go the route of commercial agriculture and so when I was introduced to Joel Salton in his farm up at Polyface Farm.
[00:09:20]
What he does, he has gone to a pasture based farming system, where he mimics the natural systems that we see in nature, in the natural ecosystems. And raises livestock in such a way that they're basically just allowed to exhibit all their natural instincts, instead of trying to curb their instincts and stop them from behaving like animals do rather he is channeling their instincts so that way you can have a productive farm.
[00:09:57]
And at the same time you are producing a healthier product because you have happier animals, healthier animals. The outdoors and the rotational pasture grazing method that he uses and that I use as well by rotating livestock around the pasture, mimics the movement of great herds in places like the Great Plains or the African Serengeti, and that stimulates biodiversity in the pastures.
[00:10:28]
It fertilizes the soil naturally, so we don't have to use chemical fertilizers. And it sequesters carbon out of the atmosphere, because instead of overgrazing one section of the pasture at a time and just grazing it to the ground by moving the livestock around it's allowing the pastures to grow and produce a lot more grass per year than a conventionally managed pasture will.
[00:10:55]
And so that sucks carbon out of the atmosphere, puts it into the growing plants and when the cattle eat it and obviously comes out through the manure. And instead of the manure just being vaporized, like what happens with a lot of commercial factory farms and systems, it is incorporated into the soil and it builds top soil.
[00:11:16]
It increases the health of the pasture and so using the natural systems and applying them to livestock farming, it creates healthier animals and healthier product, and it improves the environment at the same time. So,
>> James Ferebee: I'm not sure where I was going with that, [COUGH]. What's the question again?
[00:11:48]
>> Louanne Hoverman: I don't remember.
>> James Ferebee: Okay, [LAUGH].
>> Louanne Hoverman: I was curious if by having the animals graze the pastures like you do, do their movements literally on the pasture does that help the grass and the grounds?
>> James Ferebee: Absolutely. So, in all the great grasslands of the world, the patterns you see are the large groups of livestock all bunched up together and moved around quickly.
[00:12:14]
The reason they do that is primarily for protection against predators. You have wolves, in the American great plains or you have the lions in Africa. And so, that by moving around quickly, that keeps animals healthier, they aren't plagued by parasites and diseases as they would if they were kept in one spot.
[00:12:34]
And so there constantly moving around, eating grass and then moving to a new spot away from yesterday's manure, which harbors all those diseases, and so they're always getting fresh grass. And so instead of predators moving, the herbivores around in our pasture based farming system we use portable electric fencing.
[00:12:57]
So the portable electric fencing keeps all the animals together in one area instead of just spreading out across one pasture. And so by only giving them one section of pasture each day, however much grass they'll eat each day. They're moving around every day throughout the year whenever the pastures are growing.
[00:13:19]
And so they're only eating grass on that one spot once usually every once a month or two. So it might be a month, it might be two months before they come back around to that one spot, depending on how quick the grass is growing. And so, unlike a conventionally managed pasture where the animals are in one spot for weeks or months.
[00:13:40]
Once the animals grazed one section, they don't come back to that section again until it has completely recovered and the plants have recovered from where they've been graced. Whereas if the animals were there for longer they would graze that plant and then bite it again lower and eventually kill the grass.
[00:13:56]
And that's why many conventional cattle farms you just see weeds out in the field that has almost no grass. And so that stimulates the pastured grasses to grow thicker. It increases the biodiversity, you usually see lot more species of grasses and other herbaceous plants growing. And it also allows the other wildlife to thrive in the pasture as well.
[00:14:24]
All the insects, the butterflies, the grasshoppers, the little field mice instead of being constantly in danger of being trampled by the others kinds livestock, the livestock are only in one spot at a time. So when the livestock move to one section, all the little creatures that live in the meadow they run out of that section where it's safe and then once the livestock move on they can come back.
[00:14:49]
And that preserves the natural environment of the pastures and meadows and allows the wildlife to thrive alongside of livestock rather than being in competition for the resources.
>> Louanne Hoverman: Well, I had never really thought about that.
>> James Ferebee: Yes, ma'am.
>> Louanne Hoverman: Okay,
>> Louanne Hoverman: Now you've only been farming for a short period of time.
[00:15:16]
>> James Ferebee: Sure.
>> Louanne Hoverman: But have you noticed any changes within really anything to do with livestock farming?
>> James Ferebee: Sure, probably the biggest change I've seen just in the few years that I've really been doing this. The consumer demand for naturally raised products, organic products, and meats, and stuff like that are raised in a way that is in harmony with the environment.
[00:15:50]
The consumer demand for that has really skyrocketed. 50 years ago or so, people didn't really consider whether or not the cow that their hamburger came from ate grass or, Was kept in a factory barn or was allowed to live out on the pasture.
>> Louanne Hoverman: Or even 15 years ago it really wasn't.
[00:16:15]
>> James Ferebee: It really wasn't. [INAUDIBLE]
With the environment or the climate or pollution. And so people are a lot more environmentally aware now. And so not only are they concerned about the climate, but people are also realizing that conventionally grown needs or other agriculture products are really not as healthy as those that are managed in an ecological way.
[00:16:52]
So our meats, our land is 100% grass fed and you can In this day and age, we've got phones, so you can go on the Internet and Google scientific studies that compare grass fed meats to grain fed meats. And those studies have shown that grass fed meats are consistently higher in vitamins.
[00:17:13]
Vitamins that are high in minerals, they have good fats rather than the bad fats and they are also high in like omega-3 fatty acids as well and people are coming to understanding and people know more about all these. Little nutrients and things that are helpful to their health whereas again 15, 20 years ago if you asked your average person what omega-3 was, most people wouldn't even know what the word even means.
[00:17:45]
Whereas now, it's a buzzword. You can see it in marketing whether it's been added artificially or naturally to a product. People are a lot more aware of what's in their food than they were a couple of decades ago.
>> Louanne Hoverman: The health benefits, do you know if it comes from is it the grass?
[00:18:09]
Is it being able to graze, and move? Is it a combination?
>> James Ferebee: Well, I think it's really combination. Livestock raised in a conventional setting are generally less healthy than livestock in a pasture based setting, just because they weren't designed to live in one spot all their lives. Pigs were not designed to live in.
[00:18:34]
Factories with concrete floors for all their life they were you know, you see their wild counterparts of the wild boar or you know in Africa you've got Warhawks or whatever. You know they're they're roaming free through was there wallowing in mud and, you know just children's story books you know, everybody knows that you know, pig belongs in mud.
[00:18:56]
You know [LAUGH] however, it's whether or not you know it's healthy for them to live, you know, just in mud, like most story books tried to portray, you know, in nature pigs like to find you know what areas and wallow in them, because for a number of reasons they do it to cool down, they do it because the mud helps kill parasites.
[00:19:17]
But they live outdoors. They are allowed to behave like they are designed to do. And so they don't have all the health issues that most conventional livestock have. And so because of that, they don't need to be treated with antibiotics, or artificial hormones, or steroids in order to stay alive or to stay healthy.
[00:19:40]
And many times, those drugs that are given to most livestock through the meat, or through the milk, or through the eggs. And so again, awareness of the Places. Well, where do you think, you know perfect breeding ground for these bacteria to change and become resistant to antibiotics? Well, just look at a modern factory farm where they're constantly feeding and low doses of antibiotics to the animals to keep them healthy.
[00:20:16]
It's a perfect breeding ground for the bacteria to adapt to that. And then those bacteria come around and thank humans and we have nothing to treat them with. So you know, you have that issue there and then you adjust the, you know, issue with drugs in general or not, you know, it's not healthy to have, you know, lots of drugs in your system unless you have some health problems that needs that to fix it.
[00:20:40]
So pasture livestock, they don't need to be all drugged up like most conventional livestock. And then the grass is a natural diet. In nature, you don't see Bison or wildebeest going around and harvesting corn or seeds from all these plants and eating large amounts of it, they're grazing.
[00:21:03]
They're designed to digest leafy greens, and. Plants that generally have very complex fibers and that's why their digestive system is built to digest cellulose which most animals can't do and turn that into protein, into food, whereas grains, which are very simple carbohydrates, they are very high in sugars.
[00:21:31]
If you take any animal that's been on pasture, and you just suddenly give them a lot of grain, they are going to get sick cause their bodies aren't uses to it. You have to slowly let them acclimate and adapt to be able to digest grains, because it's not a natural food stuff for herbivores in the wild.
[00:21:54]
>> Louanne Hoverman: Is the reverse true, if you take these conventionally farmed animals that are living on grain, and you-
>> James Ferebee: Sure.
>> Louanne Hoverman: Put them to pasture?
>> James Ferebee: Sure. Well, because their digestive systems are adapted to what they're eating, if you're gonna change the die you have to move it slowly to go reverse as well because they don't have the correct microbes in their gut to digest and cellular and so if you're making in the and it's that and so because livestock natural diet, they're not being fed large amounts of grain.
[00:22:42]
They don't need to be given drugs to keep them healthy. All of that combined. It's a combination of a lot of that that creates a more healthy product, so.
>> Louanne Hoverman: Since they do spend so much time on outdoors, how are they affected by weather? Especially with weather changes, or drastic weather changes.
[00:23:06]
>> James Ferebee: Well, adult sheep particularly when they have full fleeces, they can withstand just about any weather that comes through. However, whenever they are freshly shorn and they don't have the protection of their fleece, they can be susceptible to cold or rain. And same goes for the newborn lambs.
[00:23:27]
So whenever it's gonna get really cold or if it's gonna be raining and there's babies or if they've been recently shorn, then I'll bring them all in, into the barn where they can be warm and dry. But for the most part, you know, they're perfectly fine in most weather.
[00:23:51]
Wool insulates, wet or dry and most people don't know this but not only does wool insulate against cold. It keeps heat in it also insulates against the heat to keep The animal cooler. So, in the summer, if a sheep has zero wool, then they can over heat and get sunburns just as much as a sheep with a full fleece could get over heated in the summer.
[00:24:18]
And so that's why we sheer our flock in fairly early in the spring time. So, that way they grow back a little bit of wool before summer, so that way they have enough wool to protect them from the sun and the sunlight from burning their skin, since white sheep have very fair skin and are susceptible to sunburn.
[00:24:39]
And it also allows the air to circulate around next to their skin and keep them cooler than they would be otherwise. Yeah, so that's one of the ways that they're able to stay cool in the summer and then this breed of sheep in particular, the Gulf Coast sheep, you'll notice that they don't have any wools on their legs or on their face.
[00:25:01]
And the wool on their bellies is very thin or sometimes non existent. And so that way the wool on their backs and sides can keep the sun off of them and help circulate air. But then air also can circulate underneath the sheep, around the legs, and around the face and can suck heat away from the sheep and keep the sheep cooler.
[00:25:22]
So those are a number of ways that they're adapted to the heat and stay cool in the summer. So, yeah.
>> Louanne Hoverman: How do the goats and chickens fare in extreme weather?
>> James Ferebee: Sure, well, goats would have you believe that just a few drops of rain would kill them.
[00:25:43]
However, if it's summertime and there's a pop up thunderstorm, it's not gonna hurt them to get wet. But since they don't have wool like sheep, they are a lot more susceptible to the wet in the wintertime. If it's just cold, then they can take just about any temperature as long as they're able to acclimate to the winter weather but the goats can't be cold and wet.
[00:26:04]
And so, if it's gonna be raining in the winter time, then they are brought into the barn or at least have access to a barn where they can run in for shelter. And then during the summer, it's very similar to the sheep where they don't have wool, but they have longer hair that helps keep the sun off their backs and keep them cool.
[00:26:25]
And obviously, during summer for any livestock a constant supply of cool fresh water is very important as well. With the chicken, they're not really affected by the heat a whole lot, if it's particularly hot sometimes they'll be a drop in the number of eggs laid, as they're putting more of their energy into keeping cool rather than laying eggs.
[00:26:50]
One of the ways that the chicken's stay cooler in the summer is to dust bathe,. So they'll sort of scratch around in the dust and get it all up underneath their feathers and usually that'll do that in the shade to stay cool. And in the winter, again, our hands have access to shelter constantly.
[00:27:15]
So if they wanna go out in the rain, they're welcomed to, but usually, they choose to stay under shelter except for some of the bravest ones. But yeah, access to shelter if they need it and then in the summer constant fresh supply of cool water. In the winter usually will increase their feed intake so that way they've got the extra calories to stay warm, so.
[00:27:40]
>> Louanne Hoverman: Okay, I know in the Charlotte area this past winter it was extremely wet.
>> James Ferebee: Yes.
>> Louanne Hoverman: Do you have it very wet?
>> James Ferebee: We did, and we certainly had many issues with mud. So you can see out here in this pen, [INAUDIBLE] purchased some old hay bails that were starting to rot from my friend who grows the hay, and I just unrolled them.
[00:28:11]
So the big round bails of hay, and I just unrolled them out here to put a layer over top of the mud to keep the animals up out of the mud in the dry, especially since the lambs were getting ready to start being born. So that's definitely been helpful to keep control on the mud.
[00:28:28]
Other than that, putting down straw and hay, or weed chips, or into keep down the mud, there's not a whole lot that we can do whenever there's so much rain coming down, [COUGH]
>> Louanne Hoverman: Fortunately, you don't have a lot of goats cuz you said, the goats don't tolerate wet and cold.
[00:28:49]
>> James Ferebee: The goat don't tolerate wet and cold. And so if there's just a few, you can see our hay feeders here they have over hanging roofs where a lot of times the goats will go underneath there if it's just a little bit bit of rain. And then we've also got our other little shelters, we've got the little igloo doghouse here, as well.
[00:29:12]
But, yeah, whenever the rain's really coming down hard then we've got to move the goats up to the barn so that way they can stay warm and dry up there.
>> Louanne Hoverman: What are some of the challenges farming in this area?
>> James Ferebee: Well, with sheep and goats in particular, a big challenge for any sheep and goat farmer in the Southeast is internal parasites because of our warm, subtropical climate.
[00:29:45]
Internal parasites thrive, and so one of the ways that I deal with that, first of all, the Gulf Coast sheep are already resistant to those. They're not as susceptible as some other breeds, [INAUDIBLE]. Most internal parasite have three or four week life cycle and so if it's longer than that before the sheep come around back to that same pasture, then the parasites will have died by then.
[00:30:14]
And so rotationally grazing keeps the parasite levels low. Also, moving our poultry around following the sheep and goats helps as well because poultry will eat a lot snails and slugs which harbor a lot of internal parasites that affect sheep and goats. And so those parasites can't survive in a chickens' digestive system.
[00:30:41]
So when the chicken eats the snails or slugs that's an intermediate host to that parasite, it dies instead of being passed back into a sheep or a goat. And so by using multiple different species moving around from the same area various times throughout the year it sort of confuses the parasites or the pathogens since most of those parasites and diseases are species specific.
[00:31:05]
And if they don't have the proper host, they'll die. And so by using multiple species that helps each of them to have a better health and not have as many issues of this. I think probably one of the other biggest challenges is just marketing, can be an issue especially whenever.
[00:31:35]
One of the things that a lot of people sort of think is that you've either got to go big or get out. That's the mantra that industrial agriculture wants to push. Is that you've either got to be this big corporation or you can't survive at all and so one of the things that I've been doing right now with the farming is not providing full income as a part time at the moment.
[00:32:05]
Although my goal is to eventually get to point where it's able to provide a full salary. But, When you're starting at farming, going and selling your products retail trying to find a wholesaler, you're going to retain a lot more of that, each food dollar, you're gonna have a much higher profit, than if you're selling large amounts to some big buyer like Tyson or whatever big industrial food provider.
[00:32:41]
And by direct marketing your products, you can start with friends and family. You can give somebody, a friend, some of your product to try. That's one of the best ways to get people to know about your product, let them try a little bit. Once they've tried it and they come back for more, they can tell their friends about it and so just starting small, starting with word of mouth marketing is definitely very helpful there.
[00:33:13]
>> James Ferebee: Yeah?
>> Louanne Hoverman: Are there any benefits or strengths to farming in the the area?
>> James Ferebee: I really like this area because it doesn't get extremely hot like some areas in the summertime but it also doesn't get extremely cold in the winter especially up north. And that's really nice with the livestock because areas like that get extremely low temperatures or extremely heavy snowfall, you've got another set of challenges with livestock.
[00:33:46]
Sometimes you have to keep them all in a barn or you have issues like the ranchers out in North Dakota right now, with the snow storms that have just come down through there. It's dumped feet of snow on the ground up there in North Dakota and so they're having to dig out their cattle out of the snow.
[00:34:05]
And obviously, they're experiencing losses up there whereas, here in the southeast, even though we might have some extremely heavy and sometimes insanely heavy rainfall at times, and mud to deal with, we don't really have the types of weather extremes that you see in a lot of places. And especially during the summer, our higher amounts of rainfall can be really helpful [INAUDIBLE] keep some pasture growing for much longer.
[00:34:34]
Whereas, especially out Vespers, [INAUDIBLE], come summer, a lot of times, all the grasses die out and then you got to find hay or you got to buy feed from some other state and ship it in. And that has a lot of challenges there because a lot of farmers are relying on what's growing on their property to feed their animals.
[00:34:59]
If you're having to buy feed, [INAUDIBLE] that's definitely out of your pocket. That's that much less profit that you're going to be getting that year.
>> Louanne Hoverman: From what it sounds like, they're not acclimated to that feed as they've been in the past.
>> James Ferebee: Exactly, you've got to be able to slowly acclimate them to it.
[00:35:23]
However, now hay, hay is essentially dried grass so it's usually not an issue to go from pasture to hay. If you're going from hay to pasture, you do need to move it a little bit slower because fresh grass has a lot more liquid and so you can mess with it a little bit, but usually that's not much of an issue.
[00:35:47]
But yeah, that can definitely be [INAUDIBLE].
>> Louanne Hoverman: You mentioned distribution, you're feeder [INAUDIBLE] and you also said about chickens were slaughtered, right?
>> James Ferebee: Correct.
>> Louanne Hoverman: Yeah.
>> James Ferebee: Yes, ma'am.
>> Louanne Hoverman: Where do you send them?
>> James Ferebee: Well, I use Williamsburg packing company. They're a small independent butcher down in Kingstree, South Carolina.
[00:36:18]
And they handle all of all of my butchering for my poultry, pork, and lamb. So I take the last right down there for processing. And they slaughter, and package, and freeze the meat for me, and then I go back down there and pick it back up and sell it retail here out of my freezers.
[00:36:41]
So I'm currently a vendor at several local farmer's markets, in addition to the Catawba fresh market, which, I mentioned earlier, is an online farmer's market. And then the remainder of my products are sold here at the farm, I have customers come here to the farm to pick up their meat.
[00:37:01]
>> Louanne Hoverman: Which two farmer's markets do you also sell at?
>> James Ferebee: Right now, I'm a vendor at the Mathews Community Farmer's Market, which is open year round every Saturday morning. I'm also vendor at the Old Town Rock Hill Farmer's Market which is the seasonal summer farmer's market that is in operation on Thursday evenings throughout the summer.
[00:37:23]
>> Louanne Hoverman: And you also sell wool and yarn from your sheep?
>> James Ferebee: I do, so a lot of the wool is sold to hand spinners who will process the wool themselves, they'll wash it, and cart it, and spin it, and do all that. And then the remainder of the wool from each shearing day, I send it up to a fiber mill in North Carolina and they spin it into yarn for me and send the yarn back.
[00:37:53]
And then I can sell the yarn at my farmer's market booths or on my website as well to people who like to knit or crochet, or use a yarn to make clothes and such.
>> Louanne Hoverman: Have you ever had somebody make you a sweater or something from their-
>> James Ferebee: I've not a sweater although that would be really nice.
[00:38:12]
I do have a pair of socks and a hat that were knitted from wool from a sheep. So my grandmother knitted the hat for me, and my sister, who also knits, she knitted the socks to barter for more yarn for herself. So I do have several items that are made from the wool from my sheep, so certainly very warm and comfortable.
[00:38:46]
>> Louanne Hoverman: Now, you mentioned you take the livestock to the processing plant. Do you shear the sheep yourself?
>> James Ferebee: I do shear the sheep myself. So finding a sheep shearer in the eastern part of North America, in particular, can be difficult, [COUGH] since raising sheep is not quite as common as it is out west.
[00:39:08]
Out west, where there are flocks of thousands upon thousands of sheep, they have a lot of sheep shearers out there. Whereas here in the east, it can be difficult and also hard to get into a sheep shearer's schedule. And so I was interested in learning myself, and so I mostly self taught myself how to shear sheep.
[00:39:29]
I've visited several other farms that raise sheep and watched and helped with their shearing before I started with mine, and so I do, I shear my sheep myself. I do it all by hand with blade sheers each year. Although, as the flat grows, I may be looking at upgrading to some electric sheep shears in the future.
[00:39:56]
So yeah, I do. Currently, we're getting ready to have our sheep shearing day this year next month, where we usually allow people to come out and visit the farm and watch the sheep being And it's a really neat educational opportunity for a lot of people who don't get to have experiences with animals or sheep or farms, so yeah.
[00:40:25]
>> Louanne Hoverman: Do you have any issues selling your meat across state lines or there are any issues like initially?
>> James Ferebee: Not really. So in order to sell meat across state lines, it must be processed under USDA inspection. So we start packing is the only independent USDA poultry processor in the southeast.
[00:40:48]
They're also the only butcher in the Carolinas that is Animal Welfare approved. And so since I've raised my livestock naturally, on pasture, and humanely. And so I don't want all of that work to be destroyed whenever they are being harvested [INAUDIBLE]. By not making sure it's humane. So it's very important to me to use an animal welfare [INAUDIBLE].
[00:41:22]
#VALUE!#VALUE!#VALUE!
[00:41:48]
So I haven't had any issues with that since I've been using Williamsburg Packing since I started. So, yeah, that's not really been an issue for me.
>> Louanne Hoverman: Okay. Yeah, I had read that Williamsburg Packing is quite popular among small to medium sized farms.
>> James Ferebee: It is, and a lot of that is because they're the only one.
[00:42:10]
You know, the shift in American agriculture from small family farms to large industrial production has largely eliminated small local independent meat packers. Because most of the big industrial companies like Tyson [INAUDIBLE] based on the process, they control the butchers, they control the packers, they control the people who are selling it and sending it straight to the grocery stores.
[00:42:57]
So, small all independent farmers like me, you know, we can't send our animals to their facilities because they are completely integrated [INAUDIBLE] and they don't allow any outside livestock coming in. And so, Williamsburg Packing is one of the only independent poultry processors left in the region. And so they actually have people coming as far away as Georgia and Alabama to have their poultry processed there.
[00:43:34]
Now with larger livestock, like pork, goats, sheep, beef, there's a lot more of those butchers around, both state in the USDA and custom-inspected. So that's a lot easier to find. However, most of them aren't certified humane like Williamsburg Packing is. But yeah they're definitely in high demand since they were in the last independent butchers in the area so.
[00:44:06]
>> Louanne Hoverman: What do you think is the best way to get your products to consumers? Like if you could do anything to get them.
>> James Ferebee: Well, I'm currently working with a couple of restaurants about it potentially getting some of my products in their menus. So obviously, that's a direct rep to customers.
[00:44:29]
We're about ten minutes from downtown Rockhill. So we have, many of our customers, you know just drive right out to the farm and they purchase their products here. A lot of times they will, you know come out once a month or so and stock up. And then we've got the farmers markets, which are also popular locations for, you know, customers to shop, they can buy our products directly there.
[00:44:55]
If I could do anything, I mean, there's not really any way a small producer can get in with a grocery store, say Walmart or Harris Teeter or Kroger. They want to have consistent products in all of their stores. Whereas across the entire continent, that's not even something that small producers should even consider trying to do because there's no way that you could meet that demand.
[00:45:21]
>> Louanne Hoverman: Plus the sheer volume [CROSSTALK]
>> James Ferebee: Exactly, the sheer volume with the large stores like that, their purchasing wholesale, they're gonna pay as little as they can so that we they can you know, profit themselves. Whereas small producers, every penny on the dollar counts for a small producer, you know, in order to stay in business.
[00:45:45]
So, a small producer like me, you know, as far as a retail location, a lot of us have on farm stores. So right now I don't currently have a farm store, I have visits by appointment only right now. For when customers are coming to pick up their meats.
[00:46:05]
But a lot of farms have their own farm stores. Some others will sell to specialty grocery stores. For example, The Peach Stand in Rockhill is a specialty type grocery store that is owned by Springs Farm, which focuses mostly on peaches and vegetable farming. But they also sell lots of other products grown by local farmers.
[00:46:29]
They sell meats, they sell cheeses, jams and jellies, and lots of different stuff. So you know, that's a very good way for a smaller independent producer to get their product out there. And similar to that a lot of farms have their own farm stores you know will carry products from other similar small independent producers so that way, you can have a variety of products into one store.
[00:46:58]
Because frankly, most people don't want to go to half a dozen stores just to get finish their grocery list. They wanna get their meat, their cheese, their milk, their veggies all in one area. And so if multiple farmers work together and carry each other's products in their farm stores.
[00:47:15]
You know, that way the customers, it makes it easier on the customers and makes customers more likely to continue purchasing those products because it's easy. They want to do what's convenient. And so those are just a number of ways to get the products out there.
>> Louanne Hoverman: Are there any cooperative organizations like with other farmers?
[00:47:51]
>> James Ferebee: Sure, The Gotobo Fresh Market is very similar in that sense. It's sorta like an online farmer's market where farmers list their products and can be purchased by customers online, and then The Gotobo Fresh Market's volunteers delivers all the products to the customers. But The Gotobo Fresh Market is run by the Gotobo Farm and Food Coalition, which is a farm co-op and advocacy group in the upstate of South Carolina around here.
[00:48:25]
And so their mission is to support small local farmers and help those farmers get their products to consumers. And so they, through the Catawba fresh market, they also do lots of wholesale orders to some customers that buy in bulk. And so sometimes they'll get products from multiple different farmers who are members of the Catawba Farmer Food Coalition.
[00:48:59]
But yeah, there's that. There are some others in the area, that's the first one on my mind right there. Can't think of any other ones at the moment, but there are several others that are out of state.
>> Louanne Hoverman: What kind of support have been available through the government, whether it be local or state?
[00:49:25]
>> James Ferebee: Sure, the State of South Carolina has a certified South Carolina program whose goal is to encourage consumers to buy local products. And so they have their website, the CertifiedSouthCarolinaGrown.com, where customers can find farms that are from South Carolina and where you can purchase the products. And then they also provide marketing materials to the farmers in South Carolina, so you can see the little certified South Carolina logo.
[00:50:02]
You know that those blueberries weren't grown in California, they were grown right here in state. Obviously that's a little bit larger than the more local foodshed of a city or a subregion, but that's a neat way that they help with that. On the federal level the American Land Board helps with a lot of marketing for lamb products for US producers of lamb and sheep.
[00:50:32]
And then the federal government also does have some financial assistance that they have. They have loans and grants that they have available occasionally for some young and beginning farmers. Sometimes they have assistance if there's unusual weather events, natural disasters, a lot of times they will provide assistance for farmers who are affected by those.
[00:51:01]
But yeah, mostly that's it. Occasionally there's some other programs that, they do as well, but I can't think of anything else.
>> Louanne Hoverman: Okay, what's an aspect of farming that really people wouldn't consider or is maybe misunderstood by the public? Cuz just throughout talking to you, I've learned that grazing in a pasture helps sort of the ecosystem with all the critters in there.
[00:51:37]
And by moving around they don't need antibiotics because they don't get sick as often, and your breed of sheep and more resistant to parasites, which is kind of a problem in this area. So what other things will people really never think of that is either a problem or benefit, anything really related to farming?
[00:52:02]
>> James Ferebee: Well, I mean, obviously, weather can affect farming quite a lot. Not so much with livestock, but with crops especially, the weather can make or break an entire year for a crop farmer in particular.
>> Louanne Hoverman: Was there anything that really surprised you when you started farming?
>> James Ferebee: Well, I was surprised, I had always grown up visiting farms, around farms.
[00:52:34]
My great uncle has a farm up in Virginia, and so I was always really familiar with farming. But especially when I was starting to sell products and that sort of thing, I was really surprised at how agriculturally illiterate the majority of the population is. Most people, especially in cities, aren't aware of where the food comes from.
[00:53:05]
I think one time, before I started selling the products, we butchered some of our own turkeys. And I think my mom posted about it on Facebook, and she had some comments asking, that's so terrible. Why are you killing your turkeys when you can just go get turkey from the grocery store instead of having to kill an animal?
[00:53:25]
Because people weren't aware that the meat at the grocery store doesn't just appear there magically, it comes from somewhere. So would I rather purchase this meat at the grocery store from an animal who knows how well it's treated or this turkey that I raised from the chick, took care of and then finally slaughtered?
[00:53:47]
#VALUE!#VALUE!#VALUE!
[00:54:18]
So they look very similar. But getting a sheep confused for a donkey, or a zebra, or a cow. It's amazing how little most people know about farming.
>> Louanne Hoverman: And here I thought it was bad that people didn't know that pickles were cucumbers originally.
>> James Ferebee: Well, and apparently there was a Gallop poll, 7% of the American population believes that chocolate milk comes from brown cows.
[00:54:47]
And that sounds small, but there are over 300 million people in the United States. So 7 out of every 100, that's a good bit of math to do in your head right there, but that's gonna be at least 20-
>> Louanne Hoverman: Well, 10%-
>> James Ferebee: 21,000, no.
>> Louanne Hoverman: No, 21 million.
[00:55:11]
>> James Ferebee: Yeah, that's right, 21 million, 21 million people in the United States.
>> Louanne Hoverman: Because 10% would be 30-
>> James Ferebee: Yep, that's right, I was thinking in terms of 3 million. But, yeah, it's [INAUDIBLE] came from, 100 years ago those people had a garden in the backyard. Everybody [INAUDIBLE] or [INAUDIBLE] morning or go outside and harvest some you know fresh vegetables and herbs to use for dinner.
[00:55:47]
Whereas today in our commercialized society people purchase their food, and often times they don't even purchase vegetables or meat. They purchase pre-prepared food, which sometimes aren't even recognizable as the ingredient ingredients that they're made from, and so people are completely unaware. They're not in touch with where their food comes from and what it takes to get it from a farm to the plate.
[00:56:18]
So that's probably the biggest thing that I was amazed by.
>> James Ferebee: I even had one gentleman ask me if male goats produced milk. Which anybody who passed high school biology should be well aware how mammals work. They female goat produces milk, the reason that any mammal produces milk is to feed their babies.
[00:56:47]
And dairying was even bred specifically to produce way more milk than their babies needs so we can drink it ourselves. That's how dairying works. I was completely floored. It's amazing how little people know about that and how ignorant the majority of the American population is about food, so.
[00:57:14]
>> Louanne Hoverman: One last question, where do you see your farm in the future?
>> James Ferebee: Well, my goal right now is I'm working on increasing my flock of sheep. There's an enormous demand for lamb in the area, especially organically raised grass-fed lamb. A lot of that is do, lamb in general in the past anyway has not been in super high demand in the American population in general.
[00:57:44]
It's just most people aren't familiar with it. You're familiar with beef, beef, pork, and chicken. And then turkey for Thanksgiving. But among the younger generation, millennial's in particular, are a lot more adventurous in their tastes. We like to try new foods from other cultures and that sort of thing.
[00:58:06]
And then also, in large cities like Charlotte or Columbia, they have large populations of immigrants and people from other cultures. And lamb, for example, is extremely popular in areas like the Middle East or the Mediterranean region, like Greece or Italy. Also people who come from the Caribbean or South East Asia, lamb plays a very large part in the traditional diets of those regions.
[00:58:42]
And also for people who have moved here from Great Britain. In Great Britain lamb is also a very popular meat. And so because in the larger cities there's a lot of people from other parts of the world, there's a huge demand for lamb. And also just the growing demand for lamb in the American population.
[00:59:02]
I've been working to increase my flock try to meet that demand, although I have come anywhere close. So my goal is to first of all continue to increase my production to meet some to those demands. And also I'd like to partner with some local chef-driven restaurants to get some of my products in the restaurants.
[00:59:25]
Maybe partner with a specialty grocery store type thing. And eventually I'd love to open up my own farm store as well to market my products directly out of there. And so my goal is to, I'd like to grow the farm to the point where it is self-sustainable and providing a full salary.
[00:59:47]
So that way I can do it full time, so yeah.