Alex Chapin

Rebecca Byrd was raised in Boston, Massachusetts, and is a current graduate student at UNC Charlotte. Prior to finishing her undergraduate degree at UNC Charlotte, she attended Queen's University and Howard University.  Rebecca transferred to UNC Charlotte in spring of 2016. As a way to connect with the UNC Charlotte community, Rebecca joined the Community Garden Club. After being a club member for the spring semester and throughout the summer, she became the president of the Community Garden Club in fall 2016. During her time as president, Rebecca worked to keep the garden running smoothly, attract new student members, and promote the benefits of the community garden. Some of the particularly interesting highlights of this interview include the involvement of college students in community gardening and the redistribution of food from the UNC Charlotte community garden to the student Jamil Niner Student Pantry. The Jamil Niner Pantry provides food to UNC Charlotte students that experience food insecurity, and the student community garden helps provide fresh produce to the pantry.

[tabby title='Tape Log']

Time	Subject
0:00:07	Interview Starts
0:00:46	Rebecca introduces herself and explains how she got involved in the Community Garden Club at UNC Charlotte
0:01:51	UNC Charlotte Community Garden Club
0:02:32	Foundation of Community Garden Club at UNCC
0:02:46	How UNCC students started the Community Garden
0:03:07	What produce the garden grows
0:03:54	Location of community garden on UNCC campus
0:04:57	Faculty and student community garden
0:05:25	Community Garden Club affiliation with McMillan Greenhouse
0:06:17	Logistics of garden (who buys the plants/when to plant/nurseries)
0:07:13	Student volunteering over the summer break
0:08:58	Landscaping and gardening upkeep
0:09:38	Raised bed and garden layout
0:10:17	Pollinators (i.e. bees) in the garden and a bed dedicated to them
0:10:58	The garden as a student community space and a space for students to host events
0:12:10	Vandalism and community gardens. What the student garden has experienced in terms of littering and stealing in the garden area. How to keep community gardens as clean as rural environments.
0:14:07	Urban agriculture and understanding community gardens in Charlotte. How well known is urban agriculture in city environments?
0:15:07	Produce distribution. Rebecca explains the garden harvest and food distribution to the Jamil Niner Pantry.
0:16:08	Rebecca begins talking about the UNC Charlotte Jamil Niner student pantry.
0:16:32	Describes what the pantry is and how students can get groceries and produce.
0:17:52	Talking about the life cycle of food grown at the UNCC community garden.
0:18:02	Who gives produce and groceries to the Jamil Niner Pantry.
0:18:31	Ask question about composting. Does the student community garden compost?
0:18:46	Rebecca brings up the idea of beekeeping on campus.
0:19:40	Advertising the Community Garden Club and her attempts to gain new student members.
0:20:17	Talk about the social media (Instagram and Facebook) outreach of the Garden Club.
0:21:45	Asked about the major benefits of community gardening. Rebecca talks about what she sees as the benefit to community gardening as a whole.
0:24:09	Talking about the benefits of growing and nurturing plants to fruition.
0:25:02	Asked Rebecca what some of the challenges were regarding community gardening. Rebecca talks about student involvement, commitment to the garden, and running a student organization over the summer when students are on break.
0:27:17	Asked Rebecca if she thought community gardens were helping alleviate some of the food issues currently happening in Charlotte.
0:28:00	Rebecca talks about how community gardens can be an advocate for food insecure communities in Charlotte. She talks about the limitations community gardens experience (in size and amount of food they can produce).
0:28:50	How community gardens can be a voice for communities in Charlotte, since they produce food for specific areas of Charlotte. How community gardens can help larger gardens.
0:29:26	Asked Rebecca what she sees for the future of community gardens. Rebecca talks about incorporating more aspects of gardening such as beekeepers and butterflies.
0:30:31	Rebecca talks about the inclusion of hydroponics in community gardening.
0:31:25	Talk about climate change and its effect on gardens.
0:32:29	Talk about the resources that UNC Charlotte provided to the Community Garden Club.
0:33:38	Discussing UNC Charlotte’s role in being involved with food insecurity in the larger Mecklenburg area.
0:34:23	Discussing food insecurity and how UNC Charlotte could better contribute to the growing conversation of food and communities in the area.
0:35:15	Talking about how much UNC Charlotte could realistically be involved in helping with hunger in Charlotte.
0:36:52	Explaining the location of UNC Charlotte in the “crescent” of the city and what communities surround the university.
0:38:19	Asked Rebecca anything else she would want me to know about community garden.
0:38:55	Rebecca talks about dropping off the food at the Jamil Niner Pantry
0:39:13	Ask Rebecca about what foods grew best at the garden. She talks about rainbow swiss chard and what is easy to grow in the garden.
0:39:38	Talks about the difficulty of growing blueberries and ph soil levels
0:40:34	Ph levels in the soil and help from the McMillan Greenhouse
0:41:37	Planting challenges included full sun, shade, and ph levels in soil. Talking about the location of the garden and how much sun it receives.
0:42:32	Types of flowers grown in the community garden. How flowers can be a benefit and a hindrance for a community garden.
0:43:34	Talking about what is in the garden including bugs, lizards, and bees. How this can make people nervous to garden. (Bugs, worms, stink bugs, bees, etc.)
0:45:46	Rebecca starts talking about her own personal garden at home. She talks about personal plants and water drainage in her apartment complex.
0:46:43	Challenges of urban gardens. We discuss how urban gardening could be seen as a nuisance or bother to neighbors.
0:47:19	Rebecca talks about different types of fertilizers and sales by gardner stores and nurseries. How inconcenancies of gardening (cost, lack of sprouts) can turn people off from urban gardening.
0:48:20	Rebecca talks about some “tips and tricks” of gardening to help beginners garden.
0:49:19	Talking about experimenting with gardening, looking at Google and Youtube to feel more confident in gardening abilities, especially if you are a new gardener.
0:50:48	Ask Rebecca about self-pollination in the community garden. Rebecca explains the process of self pollination and how to do it. Discusses self-pollinating strawberries in the community garden.
0:53:17	Asked Rebecca about her favorite part of being in the community garden club and being the president. She talks about the joys of being outside and the challenges of weeding the raised beds in the garden. She talks about the joys of nurturing plants to fruition.
0:54:51	Rebecca concludes the interview about tips for beginners who are interested in gardening, including ideas for plants for beginners to start, and where to pick up growing kits.
0:56:07	Talk about how sometimes there are “dud” seeds in a bunch of seeds.
0:57:03	:35 Rebecca talks about the benefits of gardening and how it helps people get back to nature and outside of technology. Talking about how gardens can be a place for relaxation, while also producing food for a community.
0:57:41	Ask Rebecca if there are any other questions I should have asked her
0:57:53	Rebecca talks about her childhood experiences in gardening and how it instilled a love for gardening in her. We talk about growing up gardening and memories of gardening.
0:58:41	Rebecca talks about her grandmother and a daffodil growing competition and how important family influence is for gardening.
1:00:13	06 Rebecca talks about loving nature and being outside and the value of the environment in self-care.
1:00:47	40 Talking about growing up with a garden and childhood memories.
1:01:32	25 Talking about how Rebecca’s gardening experience influenced her love for plants and her dream of having a farm outside the city. We talk about ideas of a future farm and dream ideas.
1:02:37	30 Interview Ends

[tabby title='Transcript']

[00:00:08]

>> Savannah Brown: Today is Wednesday March 20th, 2019 at 11:00 o'clock AM. My name is Savannah Brown, and today I will be interviewing Rebecca Byrd, past president of UNC Charlotte's Community Garden. We are interviewing on the UNC Charlotte Campus. The community garden is maintained through the community garden club, whose mission is to produce good healthy food by working together towards a common goal.

[00:00:29]

This garden will become a space that accommodates the community as a whole. Today we will be discussing the UNC Charlotte community garden, volunteering, and food distribution. So first, can you just introduce yourself and tell me a little bit about how you got interested in working with community gardens?

[00:00:46]

>> Rebecca Byrd: Okay, my name is Rebecca Byrd. I am one of the past presidents of the UNC Charlotte's Student Community Garden. And how I got involved, it seems like it was so long ago, but it wasn't that long ago. So I transferred to UNC Charlotte from Quinn's University by way of Howard.

[00:01:08]

So UNC Charlotte was my third school, so third time's a charm. And I came here spring of 2016. So I was kind of looking for student groups to be a part of, but just something different. And so I was like the student community garden, that seems really cool, I like gardening.

[00:01:32]

So I just became a member, and then after spending a semester and part of the summer really being a part they asked me do you wanna be the president? So I said sure, why not?

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah.

>> Rebecca Byrd: [LAUGH]

>> Savannah Brown: Cool, so it's a club, it's maintained. So the community gardens maintained completely by a club?

[00:01:55]

>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes.

>> Savannah Brown: Is it still going on?

>> Rebecca Byrd: I believe so, but honestly after graduating I haven't still kept in contact with Paula and the other people at the greenhouse who also kind of help with the club. But I still get emails from time to time, so I think it's still going on.

[00:02:16]

>> Savannah Brown: I think it is too. I was doing some research and I saw that they still have something on the student organization, so it seems like you can still join in. Maybe not as active as it was when you were president, because I read that it started like 2014-ish.

[00:02:31]

Is that right?

>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes.

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, so can you just tell me a little bit about the garden itself, like where it is, and just what you guys grew, and what's there?

>> Rebecca Byrd: So it was started in 2014 by two students, I wish I remembered their names, it sounds so horrible.

[00:02:49]

But two students, they got a grant, and this was a part of their grant. And so they decided hey, let's have a garden on campus. So the garden is located in between stores in Robinson. And we have some hammocks out there, and we grew sugar snap peas, Swiss chard, broccoli, different varieties of lettuce.

[00:03:13]

We also did a couple of herbs, we did basil, we did chives. What else did we do? We did tomatoes, but tomatoes, that's always tricky because the birds, they tend to say that's ours. So that's where we're located. Although sometimes it's kind of hard, especially when it gets colder it's kind of like whoa, gotta start that stuff indoors, and then transplant and bring it outside.

[00:03:39]

>> Savannah Brown: Right, so I'll include a map for visual reference when I upload all of these documents. Is it up here, the community garden? Where are stores in Robinson?

>> Rebecca Byrd: Okay, so I know what you're talking about.

>> Savannah Brown: [LAUGH]

>> Rebecca Byrd: So there's the community garden which, that's actually faculty members.

[00:04:00]

They actually have that house. Do you know that house next to the visitor parking near, is it east deck? I think it's east deck.

>> Savannah Brown: Yes, yes.

>> Rebecca Byrd: That's the faculty community garden, so they have little plants and they do that. But the student community garden, it's between Robinson and store.

[00:04:19]

So if you're headed towards, like you're walking past hall. So keep going straight and then, where Robinson is, you see that modern sculpture out front, if you keep walking, on the left. It's right next to the BM center.

>> Savannah Brown: Okay, I'm gonna have to go do some-

>> Rebecca Byrd: [LAUGH]

[00:04:40]

>> Savannah Brown: Some investigation, because I see the little community garden sign by East deck and I thought that's where it was, but when I was doing the research, I was like, this is not the same thing. Okay, that makes sense. So you guys don't have anything to do with the faculty around the community garden?

[00:04:55]

>> Rebecca Byrd: No, right before I stopped being involved with the gardening club, there was a big thing, are we the community garden or the student community garden? Because the faculty members were like well, we garden too.

>> Savannah Brown: [LAUGH]

>> Rebecca Byrd: So I’m kind of like okay, everyone wants to have their own special space.

[00:05:12]

So we're the student community garden, but we don’t have any affiliation or anything with them.

>> Savannah Brown: Okay, that makes sense, but do you have affiliation with the greenhouse?

>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes.

>> Savannah Brown: Okay, so can you tell me a little bit about that?

>> Rebecca Byrd: So the greenhouse team, Paula and all the other folks there, they kind of serve as our, I guess, faculty advisers.

[00:05:32]

And so they help us plan what we're gonna grow each season, what type of activities we wanna do on the campus side of things, and it was good. I appreciated their help, especially as faculty members, to see that they were helping, being involved in this type of thing.

[00:05:53]

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, I think that's really important for student organizations. Cuz you kind of need that authoritative figure, just to help you figure out how to navigate through all the stuff.

>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes.

>> Savannah Brown: You can see, [LAUGH], I totally understand. So for the logistics of the garden, do the students provide their own plants or how does that work, like the mulch and stuff?

[00:06:16]

>> Rebecca Byrd: So usually, we have weed by the plants, the mulch, all of that stuff, and then we start working on things. Usually in the greenhouse, if it's cold like right now, we probably would have had stuff already ready and already sprouted. And then, probably, as soon as it gets 60, 70-ish on a normal basis, then we would transplant things outside.

[00:06:40]

>> Savannah Brown: Gotcha.

>> Rebecca Byrd: So I know we had a couple of good people online, I know the Burpee, that sounds like a baby name.

>> Savannah Brown: [LAUGH]

>> Rebecca Byrd: The Burpee Gardening people, they have a great website, a lot of stuff to purchase for all your gardening needs. I know we also visited Pike Nurseries, and I liked them, they're really nice too.

[00:07:04]

They have a lot of good stuff too, for gardening as well.

>> Savannah Brown: Got you, and did students volunteer and help at the club over the summer?

>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes, so that was one of the biggest challenges, actually, when I started participating, because a lot of people leave and go home over the summer.

[00:07:23]

And so the garden, it could not be maintained by the landscaping people here at UNC Charlotte because they would wanna spray pesticides and all manner of things down. But when you're giving food away to the pantry, you can’t really spray some of those things down, especially cuz it’s toxic not only to people but to the plants.

[00:07:46]

So we had to be in charge of that area. Even though, still from time to time, landscape will just spray something down on a plant and it’s just like, what are you doing? But it was definitely a challenge, but students definitely, I think, will Hopefully now step up to the plate and say even if I'm still in the area, I'll come into Charlotte maybe one day a week or two days out the week to water the garden.

[00:08:15]

So definitely, summer involvement, it's key and it's probably, I'd say the most important time for members to really be active. But probably, arguably, the most important time, spring and summer, and early fall, to be really proactive in the group.

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, because that seems to be the biggest growing season.

[00:08:35]

>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes.

>> Savannah Brown: So that's when you really need the most weeding, watering, taking care of plants. And I was thinking about that because I love to garden, but my plants did the best summer and then early fall. So I know with students coming and going, with this being a student organization, I could see where that would be difficult.

[00:08:55]

Now, did you guys have to mow any grass or anything, or did landscaping do that?

>> Rebecca Byrd: There's no grass.

>> Savannah Brown: There's no grass, okay.

>> Rebecca Byrd: There's no grass, it's just raised beds-

>> Savannah Brown: It's just raised beds.

>> Rebecca Byrd: So it's really good that the only amount of work we'll have to do is just keeping up with the soil, fertilizing it, making sure there's no weeds in there.

[00:09:15]

Just pruning plants as they grow, that type of thing. So I'm glad it's not too taxing [LAUGH] cuz if we had to mow the lawn, like how it is right in front of the school, that would be so much. That would be so much.

>> Savannah Brown: Yes, because I feel like landscaping is always working here, like they're always on our ground and they're always mowing something, so well, that's good.

[00:09:34]

So how many raised beds is it?

>> Rebecca Byrd: I have to think off the top of my head, we have one, two, three, four, five, seven, I believe we have around seven or eight.

>> Savannah Brown: Okay, and is each bed a different produce or do you have them kind of all mixed in?

[00:09:56]

>> Rebecca Byrd: We have them all mixed in, but there are certain plants that are planted next to each other, just because they, I don't know how to describe it, other than that they thrive being in the same environment. So that's usually how the beds are set up and how they work.

[00:10:11]

But one of our beds, I remember, is dedicated to pollinators, so we have lantanas, which are really good for butterflies and bees. And we also had strawberries too, so it was this nice little area over there, especially because we have to save the bees.

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, no, I think one of my colleagues might be interviewing, I think there's two bee farms.

[00:10:37]

So that'll be really neat to see, kind of how that pollination aspect plays into community gardens and large gardens.

>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes.

>> Savannah Brown: So can you tell me a little about the space? Because I was reading online, the creators of the original garden, they wanted it to be more than a garden, kind of a place for students to relax.

[00:10:57]

>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes, so we have hammocks out there, and we've had some problems with the hammocks, of students stealing them. It's like we can't have nice things. But the space itself, we try to have events that will bring in other student orgs. So I remember we had the Turkish Club and they had Turkish tea as well at our end of the year event, we also had live music in the garden.

[00:11:23]

So I think it really could be a bigger space that's more centered on students, but I just think it'll take a lot to get it to be that. Let me rephrase it, it will take a lot for the vision of that garden to get to where it needs to be.

[00:11:45]

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, and I think it's difficult too with students because sometimes they're so wrapped up in all their school work and things like that. So really pushing it to be that, you have to have a really dedicated not just student body but faculty advisor as well. I mean, that really helps getting it there.

[00:12:03]

That was one thing I wanted to talk to you about is one of our questions was vandalism with community gardens.

>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes.

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, and apparently you guys experience that.

>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes, there's so much vandalism, but I think also, it speaks a lot for the culture down here.

[00:12:20]

There are certain things that you'll see that it's just, I guess it's not important down here. There will usually be a lot of cigarette butts in the garden, in the beds. And it's not good to smoke around the plants as they're growing because they take all that in and it could just wipe out all the plants, and those plants cost a lot of money.

[00:12:45]

[LAUGH] I mean, it all adds up. A $3, $4 plant here and there, that all adds up to over $300 worth of plants and products that you're having in the ground. There will also be trash bags, snack bags just in the ground, but also if you drive down the street, you see a whole bunch of people just littering and throwing stuff out of their cars.

[00:13:10]

So as much as if you drive outside of Charlotte and into, I call it the countryside of Charlotte.

>> Savannah Brown: [LAUGH]

>> Rebecca Byrd: The countryside of the small towns, unconquered, pass there. You see that there's a lot of land untapped, and it's beautiful, and there's no trash on the ground.

[00:13:34]

But if we did that here, there wouldn't be a lot of trash, or littering, and it just deteriorates the Earth. But I guess maybe it's just not, I guess, as important to people here, just having respect for the landscape.

>> Savannah Brown: Well, I think that could be something we could kind of segue into, just community gardens, do people not understand them?

[00:13:58]

Because in Charlotte we have a lot of community attempts to do community gardens, but it seems like people don't really like understand urban agriculture, I guess. So it's kind of foreign to them, so they don't maybe respect it as much as the outside country farmers, if that makes sense.

[00:14:17]

>> Rebecca Byrd: I see what you mean, yeah, I definitely agree. I like to drive up, I think it's Highway 49, and there's a cemetery right in Harrisburg and right behind it's like hey, we have plots for our community garden here. But every time I drive by I'm like, [LAUGH] where's the garden?

[00:14:36]

I just see headstones. So I've always wanted to figure out what are these other groups doing to get people involved, other than the flyers and all of that? And is urban farming, I guess, trying to help people that are in food deserts and lacking healthy food? Because good healthy food is very, very expensive.

[00:15:01]

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, and so tell me, we could go to a little bit, how did you distribute the food from the garden and tell me just like where you distributed it and then kind of what and how the food was used?

>> Rebecca Byrd: So it was right before the end of the year, we would do our mass little harvest.

[00:15:19]

We would harvest all of it, but we would still have like a little bit there so we have our event people see there's stuff here.

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah. [LAUGH]

>> Rebecca Byrd: So it wouldn't be completely bare, but there'll still be some things there for people to look at. And so we didn't have a big membership, so it would be if you wanna take home a few things, that's fine.

[00:15:44]

But we had more than enough to give. We gave a couple of car-fulls, not the whole car-fulls, but the trunk was full [LAUGH] I guess trunk-fulls is a better word.

>> Savannah Brown: [LAUGH]

>> Rebecca Byrd: A few trunk-fulls' worth of fresh vegetables to the niner pantry. And I think that's been really helpful.

[00:16:05]

Also to see that we have a student pantry on campus, cuz I don't know if other schools do that too. Even though, I'm not sure if it's still true. I think the statistic is one in five students is hungry.

>> Savannah Brown: Mm-hm.

>> Rebecca Byrd: And I definitely think there's a place, there's definitely a need for that.

[00:16:26]

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, so can you tell me what exactly is the pantry? Just kind of explaining the pantry-

>> Rebecca Byrd: So, the pantry, if you are a student, I'm not sure if it extends to faculty members. That sounds horrible. But, I know some of our faculty members, [GROANS] their financial situation is tough.

[00:16:48]

You have to meet certain criteria to be able to be serviced by the pantry but they have like everything there. In my head it's a full grocery store.

>> Savannah Brown: Really. And so can you just like, as a student like is there any, I'm not sure if you know this but is like an allotment of like how much food you can get or.

[00:17:06]

>> Rebecca Byrd: Yeah.

>> Savannah Brown: Yes, okay.

>> Rebecca Byrd: There's an allotment, I'm not sure what that is.

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, that's okay.

>> Rebecca Byrd: But I know you can get a certain amount of things from each, I call each section of the grocery store but each section of the pantry. You can get like a certain number of items.

[00:17:21]

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, honestly, I'll have to check out and see if other schools do that because it's really cool. And that's why I was really interested in talking to you because like food distribution, I think that Charlotte has the abundance of food but distributing it to people who maybe don't have access or live in food deserts or have a really tough time.

[00:17:42]

Getting the healthy produce. So, I really like that the UNCC Trinity Garden, it kind of like full-circle that makes sense?

>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes.

>> Savannah Brown: It was grown here and then went back to the students here. Do you know of any other community gardens contribute to the minor pantry or was it just guys?

[00:18:01]

>> Rebecca Byrd: I know it's just us but we also have you know, like Food Lion, Harris Teeter, they're also partners with the pantry so they'll donate you know some groceries every now and again, which I feel like is great. Now if we could get like Whole Foods Market or Trader Joes you know now that, that would be something.

[00:18:21]

But that's usually how it works.

>> Savannah Brown: One of the things I was gonna ask is, did you deal with composting at all?

>> Rebecca Byrd: No, but we wanted to get so many ideas especially about composting. I has like a brief idea but it was very brief. About having a beehive on campus.

[00:18:44]

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah.

>> Rebecca Byrd: Now, I know people are allergic to bees, and some people would try and go and take the bees and be vandals.

>> Savannah Brown: Right.

>> Rebecca Byrd: But I thought it was a good idea. [LAUGH] I thought it was a good idea.

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, one of the things I'm interested in is food waste and composting.

[00:19:04]

So I was wondering and I think kinda what you're eluding to is more than just thinking of food as more than just produce, lettuce. Pollinators, I thought that was super cool, and bees, and the whole cycle of the food that we use. So, That's definitely a question I'm looking to ask all my interviewees is just kind of the life cycle of their food.

[00:19:28]

>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes.

>> Savannah Brown: So, well, you had kind of alluded to this, but did you guys advertise the club just here on campus, just kind of trying to get more members?

>> Rebecca Byrd: We did, we did the student organization fairs, we did both of those. We would have tabled events usually for Earth Day.

[00:19:51]

We would work with I think it's called the Campus Green Initiative, CGI. We would also work with, I think it's called the Earth Club. We work with them, too. Just to get the word out there like hey, we're a club, this is what we do. If you're interested in these other things, then maybe you'll interested in our thing too.

[00:20:14]

That's what we did. We also have an Instagram account which was just started so, we followed everybody who had- [LAUGH]. [INAUDIBLE] And you know most of them followed us back so we had the members of course like follow us, share the page. We also have a Facebook page and that gets like good hits as well.

[00:20:36]

So we try to do a lot to get the word out there, but I think it's also not everybody is into gardening like that as well, but I definitely think there's a place for everybody to be gardener. Cuz it's not hard. I know a lot of people say, I kill plants all the time, but I'm like it's at least in my years of living it hasn't been super hard to kill a plant.

[00:21:02]

>> Savannah Brown: Well, I think there's a difference too between like house plants.

>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes.

>> Savannah Brown: And gardening.

>> Rebecca Byrd: That's true.

>> Savannah Brown: That people can't really like, they'll like, like, kill all my plants in the house. There's a difference when they're out in the sun.

>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes.

>> Savannah Brown: Like, in the mulch, you know being fertilized.

[00:21:14]

>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes.

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, I was thinking about, because I'm really looking at community gardens, and a lot of them are either are faith-based or

>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes.

>> Savannah Brown: They're working -- so they kind of have a preset community or volunteer base

>> Rebecca Byrd: Mm hm.

>> Savannah Brown: So I was wondering how you guys just get the word out to students.

[00:21:33]

But that makes total sense? And I actually found you guys through the Facebook page.

>> Rebecca Byrd: [LAUGHS]

>> Savannah Brown: If that makes sense? So what do you think are some of the major benefits of community gardening? It doesn't have to be like our community garden, just in general.

>> Rebecca Byrd: Why do you give people something to do and I definitely think there's just something like engaging about putting your hands in dirt.

[00:21:58]

I mean, maybe not like their hands, like especially if you've got a fresh manicure.

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah [LAUGH].

>> Rebecca Byrd: But if you know, putting your hands put some gloves into some dirt and you know, just feeling the dirt and if you get, I guess like maybe a flower or something from the store and you're transplanting it, just Getting those roots to loosen up a little bit.

[00:22:19]

Just, that process and putting it in the dirt, covering it, then watering it. It's just, there's something really relaxing about that. So I think that's also another benefit. There's just so much about it that's. Spun, the process of growing the plants, and watching them grow is the best part.

[00:22:41]

I think right now I've been bit again by the gardening bug. So I've started some sugar snap peas, and I started them, my gosh, I started them right before spring break. At the end of February. And I put them outside, which like I kinda felt bad about it just because it's been kind of cold too.

[00:23:03]

So I'm like, whoa. I was like, well, God, they'll just grow anyways.

>> Savannah Brown: [LAUGH]

>> Rebecca Byrd: So finally, two days ago, I got this really big long shoot out the ground and I was like, yes, yes, yes. So I was, I'm so happy about that. And I'm also working on some dutch irises as well.

[00:23:22]

But starting those bulbs is like, it's a process. So it hasn't been like the most, like rewarding yet, but it's still waking up in the morning to see, am I gonna get any new any new sprouts like coming out the ground. Am I gonna get new blooms on these flowers yet?

[00:23:39]

That type of thing is, it's the excitement of watching something grow that you worked on and that you helped become what it is, I guess.

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah.

>> Rebecca Byrd: Helping the plant become what it is. That's so weird but

>> Savannah Brown: No, I truly understand. I am I don't even like tomatoes, but I was growing tomatoes.

[00:23:58]

[LAUGH]

>> Rebecca Byrd: [LAUGH]

>> Savannah Brown: And I was so excited when I got my first bloom. And I was like, they're coming. And there is just truly something like. About nurturing something to life.

>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes.

>> Savannah Brown: Is such a good feeling. And also, being outside, just in the sun, and just kind of like what you said, putting your hands in something and really, I don't know.

[00:24:19]

I wish that, I think if you like gardening and you kind of grew up gardening, then even if it's just pots and, you know, plants. But, there's something special about, you know, just being outside and, so yeah. I think, I think exactly what you said. Definitely the benefits, and it's kind of hard to articulate those sometimes.

[00:24:39]

[LAUGH]

>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes. [LAUGH]

>> Savannah Brown: To be like, it's just fun to, like, get your hands in the dirt. But.

>> Savannah Brown: I definitely think that's true. And I think that's why there's such a thriving community garden community in Charlotte.

>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes.

>> Savannah Brown: Cuz I think people really value that, and they like to have their families and their friends get out and do it with them.

[00:24:59]

So what were the, I know you talked about vandalism, what were some of the other challenges you feel like you faced with the community garden?

>> Rebecca Byrd: Also just getting people to be involved. More than what they say they are. I think it's crazy, UNC Charlotte really thinks the community garden is a great thing.

[00:25:22]

And, you know, sometimes I feel like, in the past, some of the members we had just wanted to, like, be a part of the club, but when it came down to, like, well, who's gonna take care of the fence over the summer? Coming from someone, while I was in the club, I didn't have a car.

[00:25:41]

So I would walk over a mile in the heat, in the prime heat. [LAUGH]

>> Savannah Brown: [LAUGH]

>> Rebecca Byrd: In North Carolina. Every day, I would wake up every day at 6 AM, before it got too hot, to go to the garden to water. And sometimes, for me with my whole conditions, that would be way too much to do.

[00:26:02]

And so it just became, you know, I felt like I was doing all the work. And even though I'm the president, there have to be other people to step up to the plate. And I think a lot of people want to be, the community garden, they wanna be out there for the accolades, but they don't wanna put in the work and wake up early to go do the watering.

[00:26:26]

Or say, I'll help you out. I'll water two or three days here and there.

>> Savannah Brown: Right. I definitely can see where that would be challenging. And then it causes a little bit of burnout, if one person is just doing all of the work all the time. Even as much as you love something, it can't be 24/7, cuz I think that that can cause just a little bit of, if you know just somebody could help me.

[00:26:48]

So I understand where that would be challenging. I mean, I know we talked about this, but definitely with students over the summer.

>> Rebecca Byrd: Yeah.

>> Savannah Brown: That that would be challenging as well. So I read, I was just doing some some research before our interview, but I read in a 2016 article when you were the president of the club, you kind of talked about how you hoped it's sparked discussion surrounding food politics in Charlotte.

[00:27:11]

So kind of, what do you think community gardens are doing for this kind of food discussion that we're having?

>> Rebecca Byrd: That's a really good question.

>> Savannah Brown: That's okay, no pressure, I just think food, I mean, you alluded to it earlier, when you were talking about like food deserts and things.

[00:27:30]

I think Charlotte's going through, like, we have these really fancy boutique food sales, grocery stores, and then we have a really marginalized community of people who don't get healthy food. So do you think that community gardens are helping kind of alleviate that process? Or is it still just a problem of distribution?

[00:27:53]

>> Rebecca Byrd: I think that community gardens can take the role of being more advocating towards the issue of food distribution, because I think that's more what it, more when it comes down to. I know the community gardens, they can help with so much, and like provide produce and fruits and that type of thing.

[00:28:13]

But I think if they raise their voice and said, hey, we're doing this, but there's still people on this side of town that have to drive 30 minutes to get to a grocery store Or they don't have a bus line out there to, they can't take the, what is the bus system called down here, just the-

[00:28:32]

>> Savannah Brown: CATS.

>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes, they can't take the CATS to the grocery store.

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah.

>> Rebecca Byrd: I think that's really what the community gardening groups should, you know, focus on.

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, and then just being maybe the voice, because as they deliver the produce, they can say that people are really hungry here in Charlotte.

[00:28:50]

People do really need fresh produce, and we're seeing it, and we're doing what we can to alleviate this, but maybe they just could be, like you said, the bigger advocate, or the bigger voice for the people. I totally, I think that's why I was so intrigued with community gardens, because I think there's a focus on community, but then there should be a discussion on, as much as we're providing for the people in our community, how can we help larger Charlotte.

[00:29:18]

>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes.

>> Savannah Brown: If that makes sense.

>> Rebecca Byrd: I agree.

>> Savannah Brown: So let's see, what do you kind of see for the future of community gardens?

>> Rebecca Byrd: Well, we might be gardening on Mars soon. I did watch that movie that came out, who was it? Not Ben Affleck. You know what movie I'm talking about.

[00:29:41]

>> Savannah Brown: I know what you're talking about. [LAUGH]

>> Rebecca Byrd: But I think the future of gardening, especially community gardening, will be more inclusive. Just reaching out to everybody, not just within the community, but reaching out to beekeepers, reaching out to. I don't think there's a real defined term for someone who's involved with butterflies.

[00:30:07]

I mean, I know their role within the ecosystem is important, but I don't think there's someone who houses butterflies, and just says, like okay, I send you off here. But I just think bringing in as many different people would be cool, and I also think maybe the future would be hydroponics, cuz that's like really cool, although I think that it might be a little expensive, but it doesn't have to be.

[00:30:37]

But I think that that could definitely be the future. And I think if they keep talking about, I know I'm looking out the window, I know I'm thinking of water. As the water levels start to rise, there's no water out here, as the water levels start to rise and the sea levels are rising, I think that might become more of a.

[00:30:59]

Not to say more of an option, but it looks like it might become like a reality that our coastal cities will be submerged underwater. And climate change, that's real too. So it's kind of like, what's gonna happen? So I think hydroponics might be the best option.

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, I think climate change is something that's affecting farmers, and gardeners, and people who are outside, working.

[00:31:30]

And that's something we're kind of, with this project, want to kind of understand a little bit more where they're, how they're seeing it, and how it's coming from, but I think it's Johnson C. Smith who's doing hydroponics. I have to go back and double-check, but I think they got a whole program where they're kind of like getting that started.

[00:31:49]

So that'd be really cool if I could interview them, and kind of see how they're integrating that future of gardening in today's climate. I was gonna ask you about, my gosh, it just left me.

>> Rebecca Byrd: It's okay. [LAUGH]

>> Savannah Brown: [LAUGH] I was gonna say, when you were talking about hydroponics, I thought of Johnson C Smith.

[00:32:12]

Do you think that the university did enough to help you guys, just with the resources that they have? Kind of like, how could have the University of Charlotte maybe helped the community garden more? Or do you think they did enough?

>> Rebecca Byrd: Well, I think UNC Charlotte did more than enough for the community gardening club.

[00:32:34]

But what I do think is, maybe the student group itself could have done more.

>> Savannah Brown: Okay.

>> Rebecca Byrd: You know, I always think we could have reached out to, I think, Queens University. I had to think of the school. Queens University. I know they have a gardening club, and they have a really nice greenhouse, it's on top of the building, which I'm like, that's so cool.

[00:33:01]

We could have like reached out to them. We could have reached out to Johnson C Smith. We could have had a nice little intercollegiate community gardening network, but for future days.

>> Savannah Brown: [LAUGH] Yeah, I was gonna say, I ask that just because, I wonder how much influence the university could have on really promoting this idea of healthy food to people.

[00:33:29]

And it might not be something that the university wants to tackle, like kind of get involved in that discussion about food and food insecurity in Charlotte. But I do like that they, it's here within the system. Like it was grown here and given back to students. So I think in that way, they really did play a large role in helping kind of people who have food insecurities get healthy foods.

[00:33:53]

And I like that you said that they did a lot, because I think that sometimes, clubs that have really good intentions aren't supported by their universities.

>> Rebecca Byrd: I think it's funny you say that cuz, my gosh, I was gonna say something. And right as I was gonna say it, it left.

[00:34:11]

>> Savannah Brown: We both need a coffee.

>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes, I desperately need a coffee, even though it's like 11 something. Yes, it was about food insecurity, yes. I feel like the university, they could, you know, the university, I feel like they dip their hands in everything. As you can see, they're always dipping their hand into construction projects.

[00:34:33]

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah. [LAUGH]

>> Rebecca Byrd: Into gymnasiums that, we don't need five gymnasiums on campus, I just don't feel like that's necessary. But I don't want the chancellor to hear this and then-

>> Savannah Brown: No. [LAUGH]

>> Rebecca Byrd: I get a email. I kid, I kid, but I definitely think UNC Charlotte has the space, and has the resources to be for the people and, you know, be the voice for people in Charlotte.

[00:35:00]

Even those marginalized, even if you just drive down North Tryon, like you can see it. So, it's not too far out of the university's bubble. I just don't know if UNC Charlotte is really, if that's something they wanna be behind. And I don't, not to say I don't know why, I mean because.

[00:35:23]

They have people come to speak here all the time about racial politics, that type of thing, they even promote people going to vote. So I feel like this is just as important, cuz if the people can't eat, then how are they gonna vote? That sounds like?

>> Savannah Brown: [LAUGH]

[00:35:43]

>> Rebecca Byrd: Like one plus one equals apples, but I feel like they go hand in hand, especially when it comes down to the issues. And soon, election season's coming up, so I feel like it would be a good time for UNC Charlotte to really be the face of, not the face of the city, cuz that sounds a bit much.

[00:36:08]

But the face of the city, really, and, you know, speak up for things that not only like students, but the community and the city need to talk about. Because you don't see other people talking about it. I haven't seen, but then again my citizenship, I'm not a Charlotte citizen or a North Carolina resident.

[00:36:29]

I just live here for school. [LAUGH] I just live here for school. But I haven't seen any local council members talking about food insecurities in this area, and I just, not to say, I wonder why, but I really do wonder why, because it's a big problem.

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, I think one thing you just said was how Charlotte is in, you know, they call us the crescent and the wedge city?

[00:36:54]

>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes.

>> Savannah Brown: It's like the wedge, there's kind of your wealthier population, and then the crescent surrounds it. And Charlotte, UNC Charlotte is in the crescent. And like what you said about the university's bubble. We are surrounded by communities that may experience food security, or be in a food desert.

[00:37:11]

And so it kind of is, we are kind of the face of this upper crescent that, you know. If we call UNC Charlotte a leading institution, we really should be practicing what we preach, and helping. And like you said, we host a lot of different things, and so maybe we should start talking about food a little bit more than we already do.

[00:37:31]

Yeah, I think that's super important, and I hope that the club can really revitalize, and incorporate all of this talk about food. And maybe this project could even, it's something sponsored by UNC Charlotte students. And so it could be something that kind of sparks that revitalization, again, at least in gardening.

[00:37:54]

But it does take a lot of volunteers, a lot of dedication, a lot of hard work, and not just by one person. And I think any farmer would tell you that, it's hard to run a big farm with one farmer, so.

>> Savannah Brown: Is there anything else about the community garden you kind of just would like to tell me about?

[00:38:18]

I think I was primarily interested in the food distribution, I thought. So you guys just did one harvest at the end of the growing season? And when would you typically take that to the pantry?

>> Rebecca Byrd: We would usually take it there like April, like end of March, actually no, not end of March, April, May.

[00:38:43]

Like right before it really starts to hot out.

>> Savannah Brown: Gotcha.

>> Rebecca Byrd: And sometimes we would do it in the fall as well, depending on what we planted or grew.

>> Savannah Brown: And would you just drop it off? You never-

>> Rebecca Byrd: No, we would go in there and put it in the fridge.

[00:38:58]

>> Savannah Brown: You would? Nice.

>> Rebecca Byrd: Talk to the people at the pantry. That type of thing.

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah. That's good. So there was some kind of interaction.

>> Rebecca Byrd: Mm-hm. And then we would record what we gave them.

>> Savannah Brown: Okay. Was there any best-sellers? I mean, that sounds like [LAUGH].

[00:39:13]

>> Rebecca Byrd: I don't know if there were any best-sellers, but I do know everyone was a fan of the rainbow Swiss chard.

>> Savannah Brown: That would be fun.

>> Rebecca Byrd: So it's definitely, not to say it's a easy grow, but it's really a easy grow, and it's a overabundant plant. So you cut it once, and it'll just keep growing.

[00:39:33]

>> Savannah Brown: Was there anything that was really difficult to grow? Well, the tomatoes, you said.

>> Rebecca Byrd: Tomatoes, but blueberries are especially difficult, because the pH in the soil has to be at certain level. It just, everything has to be perfect.

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah.

>> Rebecca Byrd: That's definitely like trickiest thing to grow, but everything else that we've done has done well.

[00:39:54]

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, did you guys use fertilizer?

>> Rebecca Byrd: I believe we have, I'm not sure like what, but we don't like spray down anything. Just, you know, to keep it, not organic but just to keep it, you know-

>> Savannah Brown: But there was no, like, chemicals?

>> Rebecca Byrd: No.

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, okay.

[00:40:12]

>> Rebecca Byrd: No chemicals used, it was all natural.

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, was it hard to, and maybe this is where the greenhouse people came in, did they kind of know the soil level? You just said the pH levels, were there any other plants that needed like specific pH levels?

>> Rebecca Byrd: Well, outside of the garden, I know citrus fruits need a certain pH level, and so it's kind of a hit or a miss.

[00:40:42]

It's either perfect and it'll do well, or the plant hates it, and I'm gonna die right now. [LAUGH] I'm gonna die now. I hate this soil, it's not perfect, what are you doing? So I know those two tend to be really finicky when it comes to that. But I know there's an instrument you can use to test the pH and I’m like, this is so cool.

[00:41:11]

And you just like plop it in there and it’s like ding, good for whatever level it is. And if it’s not, there’s usually different acidic soil mixtures you can add to it. So that's definitely the biggest planting challenge, I guess.

>> Savannah Brown: Right, I know that some plants, some like full sun, some like shade and sun.

[00:41:37]

Were parts of the garden shaded, or is it mostly full sun?

>> Rebecca Byrd: It's mostly full sun, but I know in one area that's closer to, well, actually there's two areas. One area that's closer to the gondola, it gets shady a little bit. And then the side that's closer to, you're exiting Robinson, and you're going across the street to get to those apartments, I think it's called like Haven49 or something.

[00:42:11]

That's a really shaded area, but it'll still get full sun.

>> Savannah Brown: Got you.

>> Rebecca Byrd: So it'll just get shade for like the end part of the day, but it'll still be like full sun.

>> Savannah Brown: I'm trying to think if I have any other planting, I'm curious about anything else planting.

[00:42:29]

Did you do any flowers?

>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes, we do lantanas. We do, I believe, dahlias. We do brown-eyed Susans, and I think we did something else, but I can't remember off the top of my head. But yes, flowers, I love flowers because it's the beauty. But sometimes, part of me's like, I wanna get something I can eat.

[00:42:58]

>> Savannah Brown: [LAUGH]

>> Rebecca Byrd: [LAUGH] Like something I can really get into, and use it, and feel like I gained something from this. Cuz sometimes with flowers, even if they bloom the next year, I'm just kinda like, this is just some flowers. But with growing vegetables and fruits, it's kind of like, I get to enjoy this next year too.

[00:43:24]

It's that type of thing.

>> Savannah Brown: Did you find that people were nervous to garden? Was anyone ever scared to start gardening?

>> Rebecca Byrd: It's not necessarily, like, scared to garden, it's more scared of what might come out the ground. [LAUGH] Or like what might come towards you. It's more of like the spiders and the bugs and the bugs that bite, and it's not good, it's scary.

[00:43:51]

[LAUGH] It's a little bit scary sometimes, I'm not gonna lie.

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, just like the outside critters.

>> Rebecca Byrd: Yeah, like, even I'm not a big bug person, the only bugs I'll tolerate, bees, butterflies, although a lot of people are like bees? Yeah, I like bees, cuz they're not gonna, at least to me, they haven't done anything to me.

[00:44:11]

They'll just land on my hand and then fly away. I won't even get stung, and I'm like my God, look at that!

>> Savannah Brown: [LAUGH]

>> Rebecca Byrd: But the worms, I'm fine. But the big spiders, not the little, the big spiders that, nope, that's it. And then every now and again, ticks, those really big beetles.

[00:44:32]

Or the, I don't know what they're called, there's a scientific word for them, but I call them the roly-polys.

>> Savannah Brown: Yes. [LAUGH]

>> Rebecca Byrd: I don't like those either.

>> Savannah Brown: [LAUGH]

>> Rebecca Byrd: They just, sickening. Centipedes, millipedes, uh-uh. Salamanders, they're cute, so I tolerate them. But other than that, I think it's more the outside life that really, it's kinda like, I don't do bugs.

[00:44:56]

But you'll get over it soon, but it's not all the time thing when you're gardening, so.

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah.

>> Rebecca Byrd: [LAUGH]

>> Savannah Brown: I understand. The one bug I really don't like are cicadas.

>> Rebecca Byrd: Ugh.

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, and they come out of the ground. So those are weird.

>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes.

[00:45:10]

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah.

>> Rebecca Byrd: Those and stink bugs, they're the worst.

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, I feel like North Carolina, I feel like we have an abundance of stink bugs for some reason. [LAUGHS]

>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes! And I just don't understand how, where did they come from? Why are they here? Why are they attracted to being near my space?

[00:45:28]

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah.

>> Rebecca Byrd: Well, not necessarily near my space, but just here in general. Like I just really would like to know. [LAUGH] I really wanna know, because they've just, when I was gardening in my, I have a little patio garden on my porch. This is like a side note, I hope I haven't bothered my neighbor downstairs, because I attached three, I got them from Home Depot.

[00:45:54]

It's like three railing planters.

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah.

>> Rebecca Byrd: And I love them, like you just attach them to the railing with some steel zip ties. They're all-season, all-weather strong. But like, the water drains straight out, and goes, like, straight downstairs. So I'm like, I hope my neighbor isn't bothered by seeing all this water drip down in the morning, for his morning cigarette.

[00:46:16]

[LAUGH]

>> Savannah Brown: It's funny you say that, because I also live in a apartment complex, and I had a neighbor above who did the planters, and the water would drip down. But I would just put my plants out there, so that they would get some of the water.

>> Rebecca Byrd: [LAUGH]

[00:46:32]

>> Savannah Brown: So hopefully, it never bothered me too much. But I did feel bad sometimes when I watered mine, I knew it'd drip down again, so that's definitely a challenge of urban gardening.

>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes.

>> Savannah Brown: And again kind of feeling like you might be bothering someone, like with smells or bugs or whatever.

[00:46:50]

Which I think, maybe not here, but do you think that would turn anybody off from community gardening, being a nuisance almost?

>> Rebecca Byrd: I think it could, cuz sometimes the people are like, you have to fertilize your plant again?

>> Savannah Brown: [LAUGH]

>> Rebecca Byrd: I mean, well, yeah, that's kind of how it works.

[00:47:07]

[LAUGH]

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah.

>> Rebecca Byrd: Why are you going to Home Depot to buy another type of fertilizer? I was like, well,I also feel like the nurseries and the garden centers, they do a good job of getting you to buy things. It's kind of like how Babies R Us and those type of stores, they prey on new moms, because they know you're going to buy all this stuff, even though chances are you don't really need it.

[00:47:30]

So I have three different types of fertilizer that they all do the same thing, although one is specifically for citrus fruit. But, I'm kinda like, what, do I have a problem? I just keep buying things.

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah.

>> Rebecca Byrd: I think that, I mean if you have a spending problem, that might turn you off from gardening, just having to buy things, I mean, but it's fun.

[00:47:49]

I mean, who doesn't like shopping? But I definitely feel that small inconveniences of gardening, like, well, like this plant, it's not like sprouting in two days, and it's been in full sun, you know. Well you know, sometimes it's the germination time, sometimes it's ten days, sometimes it's 20 days.

[00:48:10]

How's the soil? Have you been keeping it moist? What have you been doing? Sometimes those tips and tricks, have you tried rotating your planters to getting more sun? Those type of things sometimes help. Have you been adding some coffee grounds to the dirt?

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah.

>> Rebecca Byrd: Little things here and there, I think can help.

[00:48:34]

And Google is always the best helper.

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah. Well, and I think too it is kind of just experimenting a little bit.

>> Rebecca Byrd: Yeah.

>> Savannah Brown: Because when I first planted my peppers, they were not doing good. They just kept looking so sad, and I was like I thought they wanted full sun, or maybe it's too much sun, so I kept moving them around the patio but I think with gardening, especially people new to gardening, it might be a little bit of a turn off.

[00:48:56]

And you're like nothing's happening but it really is just being like, well, maybe I need to do a little research on maybe they like to be out in the sun for some of the day, or maybe they need more water than I was giving them or something like that.

[00:49:08]

So I think one of my suggestions kind of like what you were saying is for new gardeners like don't give up.

>> Rebecca Byrd: Yeah, don't give up, just keep going.

>> Savannah Brown: Just keep going.

>> Rebecca Byrd: Just keep trying. Go on Google, look at a whole bunch of articles. YouTube too.

[00:49:22]

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah.

>> Rebecca Byrd: A lot of urban gardeners, urban farmers, they have like YouTube Channels that are really, really like they're really fun. They're also like kind of corny, but they're cute and they're helpful. And they give you all the tips and tricks that you need. I think, when was it?

[00:49:38]

Over the weekend, I had just bought a little mini meyer lemon citrus bush. So, I'm kind of like, okay,like how tall is this going to get? Like is it going to be like, like this forever. I am going to get any fruit this summer? Am I not?

>> Savannah Brown: [LAUGH]

[00:49:52]

>> Rebecca Byrd: Because like, to me like, that's like the main thing, what am I going to get from this. [LAUGH].

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah.

>> Rebecca Byrd: That's sounds horrible, right? I'm focusing more on that. And so I went on YouTube. I'm like, okay, so what do I do with it? There's blooms, there's flowers on it.

[00:50:05]

Do I need to self-pollinate this with a little paint brush? Do I just leave it? Do I try and find some bees and just sit it there? What do I need to do? So YouTube definitely, YouTube and Google have been the biggest help for gardening and then if you go to the garden centers just asking the people that work there, because they usually.

[00:50:28]

Now if you're going to like pike nursery, not Home Depot or Lowes because sometimes you know that's like a hit or miss.

>> Savannah Brown: Yes, they do. But you know sometimes you do have to go to a nursery or garden center because it's people that are raising those plants.

[00:50:40]

>> Rebecca Byrd: Yeah.

>> Savannah Brown: That really know how to help you. Did you ever have to self-pollinate in the community garden or the bees-

>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes.

>> Savannah Brown: You did have to.

>> Rebecca Byrd: Some things, we did self-pollinate like the strawberries, we help the bees a little bit which I always think is good just it's like two seconds just to go around a little paintbrush and tap tap here, and a tap tap there, it's easy but it's fun, it's all about getting that perfect moment, I guess.

[00:51:10]

It sounds awkward.

>> Savannah Brown: How do you self-pollinate? I have never done that.

>> Rebecca Byrd: So it sounds like, well, it sounds very sexual when you talk about it but you're just waiting for the perfect moment when the pollen is I don't know how to describe it but I think it's called the pistol.

[00:51:28]

Inside it's super duper, I don't know any other word to describe it, super duper lubricated, and then you tap the pollen and you brush it on there. And then you go to each different bloom and you repeat it.

>> Savannah Brown: Okay I've never done that but I definitely know exactly what you're talking about.

[00:51:46]

Like when a flower, when you get one that honestly they look like kind of wet on the inside-

>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes.

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, okay, so was it for strawberries?

>> Rebecca Byrd: Mm-hm.

>> Savannah Brown: Or was there anything else you had to do it for?

>> Rebecca Byrd: Not that I can recall, I've done it for my meyer lemons even though they didn't require it, because it's a self-pollinating tree, so it doesn't need it, but you know, everyone's is like it doesn't like [CROSSTALK] it doesn't hurt it if you do it.

[00:52:14]

So I'm like, well, why not? But I definitely think that helps, especially with all the technology we've got in this area, throws the bees off from traveling and getting to where they need to go. I definitely think that helps and especially if you live in an apartment complex.

[00:52:34]

I haven't seen any bees, but also then again, our landscapers, not to say they suck, but they don't put out lots of flowers and stuff. [LAUGH]

>> Savannah Brown: Right.

>> Rebecca Byrd: So we're not gonna see lots of bees or bee action over there. So I definitely think pollinating by hand is a necessity, but if we could get these that would be great.

[00:52:59]

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. I never really thought about that, I mean if we don't have bees and you're not somewhere with self-pollinating plant, you kinda have to do it. But, yeah.

>> Rebecca Byrd: [LAUGH]

>> Savannah Brown: So I guess it's just kinda my final question is what was your favorite part about being in the community garden club and being president.

[00:53:19]

>> Rebecca Byrd: My favorite part of course is like telling people about the garden but also just like being there gardening. Like that, it’s just so relaxing, it’s just like just putting your hands in some dirt is just you know. Now some things about gardening is just like weeding.

>> Savannah Brown: [LAUGH]

[00:53:36]

>> Rebecca Byrd: Like weeding those beds a headache, horrible but pruning the plants like that type of thing just taking the dead leaves off. It's like that pattern of going to each, I guess, each plant and doing that over and over, it's just there's something like, even though it's like methodical it's just relaxing.

[00:53:59]

It's like, this go here, do this, it's perfect. All right, do the next one. It's just, it's relaxing. Very, very relaxing. I mean it was a great experience. I love being a part of the gardening club, even though it was hard. [LAUGH]

>> Savannah Brown: Yes.

>> Rebecca Byrd: It was hard doing a lot of the hard work, getting other people involved I really enjoyed it, it made it made my time at UNC Charlotte like, I made it nice.

[00:54:28]

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, and I think, I mean, just from listening to our interview, it just sparks so much joy to be a gardener even if you're just like you've got three plants at home or something. So I hope from this interview, we can help others just feel like it's not scary.

[00:54:43]

You can do it and it can be a really fun, relaxing activity. And benefit your community. Overall whole.

>> Rebecca Byrd: Exactly, it really can, even if it's you're starting off small. Start maybe with a bamboo plant. You know those those do well you know if you put in your bathroom.

[00:55:05]

It does perfect there you don't really have to do much just water it once a week. Just keep the shower mist juices. It'll be fine. And then if you find that that's doing well start off with like some peas, yes please I always feel like every first grader always does like peas.

[00:55:26]

At least I did peas. [LAUGH] I remember doing peas in my classroom and watching that grow was easy. And then, of course, they have lots of like grow kits at Home Depot, if you wanna start there and they some like herb. You could grow it right in your kitchen, they give you the containers, it has directions on it.

[00:55:48]

So it comes with directions so it can't be all that bad, although I will say sometimes you will get a dud seed. So sometimes the dud seeds, don't feel bad, sometimes we all get dud seeds. It happens, so a dud seed shouldn't deter you from being a gardener.

[00:56:06]

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, I had two great peppers. So I had three pepper seeds, two of them, beautiful, did the best. One of them just couldn't It just didn't take, and that just happens. [LAUGH]

>> Rebecca Byrd: That's usually how it happens. You'll get a good majority that, they'll sprout and they'll be fine.

[00:56:22]

And then you'll always get those one or two that you're like, well, I did everything perfect, all you had to do was just grow. That's all you had to do. The sun is shining, just say, okay, I'm gonna sprout now. That's all. But it's a great process, it's fun.

[00:56:39]

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, it is fun.

>> Rebecca Byrd: There's something back to nature about it. It's, you know, when you're gardening, it's like you can't really, not saying you can't really be on your phone while you're doing that, I mean, you can. But if you wanna get dirt all on the touchpad.

[00:56:52]

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, really be involved in the process.

>> Rebecca Byrd: It takes you outside of technology and Facebook and all of that stuff, and just outside, just doing something. It's relaxing, it's-

>> Savannah Brown: No, I totally agree. They'd be like, why are you rotating your plants again? And I was like, leave me alone.

[00:57:12]

It's nice to just be out here. And I would just trim two leaves and prune them, but it still is nice to just put your phone away. Especially when we're surrounded by technology all the time, gardens really can be this place of just peace, and refuge, and relaxation.

[00:57:31]

And I think, community gardens, if you're experiencing that, while also you're producing food, it's just such a win-win.

>> Rebecca Byrd: Yes, exactly.

>> Savannah Brown: Are there any other questions I should have asked you about the community garden?

>> Rebecca Byrd: No questions. But I guess this will be my one little moment in the interview to say this.

[00:57:51]

I'm definitely thankful for my childhood, I guess my childhood experiences in gardening. I remember as a kid, my mom, in the summertime, we go to this mega store out in, I think it's in, trying to figure out the directions on the map. It's like southwestern Massachusetts, called Mahoney's, and it's the best.

[00:58:17]

To me, it's the best place ever, [LAUGH] it's the best place ever. And I have so many fond memories going to the store with my mom. She would say, all right, so what do you wanna plant? And so she would let me pick out some things. And she'd say, well, we can't grow that because we don't get full sun over there, so you have to pick something else.

[00:58:33]

So that experience, and also, my grandmother, she judges daffodil contests. It sounds so weird, so-

>> Savannah Brown: No, I love that.

>> Rebecca Byrd: So she lives in Rockford, Illinois, and so they have a daffodil growing competition. And so she grows daffodils, and this is what she does. So every time we would go to her house, she would have, I wish I brought a picture of it.

[00:58:59]

She has the most beautiful front and back yards, flowers everywhere, different types of daffodils all in a little field. It's kind of like, how does one have all this time and dedication to grow this? And she's very organised, she has the little tags and when she grew it, and what type of variety, and the scientific name, handwritten.

[00:59:24]

[LAUGH] I'm one of those, you know, you just could have put regular shmegular daffodils. I planted this on February 1st, right here. But she really gets into it, and that's her thing, so I'm just happy that I had those types of experiences that really made me want to garden now.

[00:59:44]

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, for sure. Do you think people need that to want to garden, or do you think it just kind of helps?

>> Rebecca Byrd: I definitely think it helps, but you know, I definitely think, how could you not? I mean, just walking around the street, how could you not say, one day, I wanna have an apple tree.

[01:00:05]

Just nature, the world around you, it's just so beautiful. How could you not wanna say, I just wanna grow a little plant or something. It's just, not to say, I don't understand how people don't like it, but I don't understand how people don't like it or see that it adds value.

[01:00:25]

Not even just for the Earth, just for self. I guess it could be a part of, well, it is a part of self-care. Yeah, just having something to relax and take time away from life. But it's a full circle type of thing that you get to take part in.

[01:00:44]

It's cool.

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, I mean, I think the same thing. I grew up with just a garden. And one of my favorite days of the year was when we'd go to the nursery and we could each pick out something that we were gonna grow and like take care of.

[01:00:56]

The same thing, my mom was like, we have a full sun garden, so you can’t have these certain things. But even though I didn't, maybe, as a kid, realize all the intricacies of gardening, it still was just a love for working outside and being able to pick something and watch it grow.

[01:01:12]

Kind of like your little pet, like you're just taking care of it. So yeah, I totally see where you're coming from, and I definitely think that for me, now, is why I like to at least have a couple plants on my patio. Cuz I'm like, even if I can't have a full garden, I still like to have a little something.

[01:01:29]

>> Rebecca Byrd: Exactly, I don't know, I always feel like, because of my gardening experience, I'm like, ugh, you know, some days, in graduate school, these professors, I'm not trying to give it to them. [LAUGH]

>> Savannah Brown: [LAUGH]

>> Rebecca Byrd: Sometimes I'm just like, I could just leave this all behind and quit school and just move out to Harrisburg and have a farm.

[01:01:50]

But then I'm like, having a farm is expensive in itself. So I'm like, I can't really do that either. [LAUGH] But it's always, I would leave it all behind just to have a farm in the countryside with only a landline phone.

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, I think my overall dream, one day, is to have a farm to table area with my farm.

[01:02:14]

And people can come for dinner and I can just be like, here's all my produce, here's for dinner. I know, i think about that too. You know, my grand dream, if I had all the money to do whatever I wanted, that would be it.

>> Rebecca Byrd: Exactly, it's perfect, what more do you need?

[01:02:29]

>> Savannah Brown: I know. All right, well, thank you so much, I'm gonna go ahead and turn this off.

[tabby title='Captioned Audio'] [tabbyending]

Hodges Family Farm (www.hodgesfarmnc.com), located off Rocky River Road in north-east Charlotte, North Carolina, has been owned and operated by the Hodges family since 1905, and is listed on both the National and North Carolina State Historic Registries.  The Hodges family is currently in its ninth generation of farming in Mecklenburg County, dating back to the early 1700s. Initially a subsistence farming operation with livestock and crops of vegetables, feed grasses, and cotton, the 187-acre Farm transitioned to a primarily dairy operation in the 1930s, and remained so until 1999.  It has since continued operating as a working farm – raising a variety of fruits, vegetables, feed grasses, and livestock, which are sold direct-to-consumer via produce stands on the property – but expanded its operations to include agritourism, education, therapy horses, and special events (including its month-long October Pumpkin Patch, which attracts several thousand visitors each year).  Recently, the Farm’s offerings have also included cross-country foot races, obstacle course-based events, and a special events venue in its renovated 1932 Barn. The Farm is currently operated by Connor Newman and Kim Hodges Schoch, two of the great-grandchildren of Eugene Wilson Hodges, the original owner of the current farmland.

Connor Michael Newman (Farm Operations Manager) was born on October 25, 1986, in Clyde, North Carolina.  He grew up helping his uncle Frankie Hodges, Connor’s immediate predecessor as the Farm Operations Manager, at the Farm.  Prior to joining the Farm full-time in 2015, Connor worked for ten years as Farm Interpretation Manager at Historic Latta Plantation in Huntersville, North Carolina.  He is currently pursuing a degree in Environmental Science from University of Phoenix.

Kimberly Hodges Schoch (Assistant Farm Operations Manager) was born on April 1, 1991, in Durham, North Carolina.  She grew up spending significant time at the Farm and other farms, focusing primarily on horses.  She earned a B.S. degree in Animal Science in 2014 from N.C. State University, with a concentration in equine science.  Prior to joining the Farm full-time in 2015, Kim raised and bred horses in Kentucky and Australia.

[tabby title='Tape Log']

Time	Subject
0:01:02	Kim Hodges Schoch (“Kim”) introduces herself and provides biographical information
0:02:42	Connor Newman (“Connor”) introduces himself and provides biographical information
0:05:52	Connor discusses the history of the Hodges family, its farming heritage dating back to the early 1700s, and the Hodges Family Farm
0:06:47	Connor discusses changes at the Farm and its crops, including the transition to dairy farming during the 1930s
0:08:32	Connor discusses current operations of the Farm, diversification of its crops and distribution, and its move toward educational farming, agritourism, and event hosting as additional revenue sources
0:09:22	Kim discusses the Farm’s past horse therapy program and the care of retiring horses
0:10:47	Connor discusses the small labor force that operates the Farm, including “barn rat” volunteers
0:12:07	Connor discusses the Farm’s educational mission and activities
0:13:07	Connor details the expanding use of the Farm for various special events ranging from foot races to weddings, including their two-fold utility for financially supporting the Farm’s agricultural operations and for integrating the Farm more intimately with the community
0:15:27	Connor and Kim discuss the effect of Charlotte’s urban sprawl on the Farm’s operations, and the benefit of the Farm’s proximity to urban children who otherwise have few opportunities for farming experiences
0:17:37	Kim details the Farm’s educational program, including specific elements of its curriculum
0:19:47	Conner discusses their efforts and challenges to getting integrated into the “farm to table” scene and distribution channels beyond direct to consumer
0:20:47	Connor discusses the availability of support and educational resources from various state and local organizations
0:21:52	Conner discusses crop loss, risk mitigation, operational expenses, and the need for diversification and strategic agriculture
0:23:07	Connor discusses the impact of weather and climate change on crops, farm operations, and agricultural techniques
0:24:52	Connor discusses the impact of technology on farming
0:26:17	Connor discusses local support from aging farmers, and the Farm’s place as one of the last larger-scale farming operations in Mecklenburg County
0:27:52	Kim discusses support provided by older local farmers, the rise of urban farming, and efforts to maximize both high density production from smaller plots of land and the involvement of younger generations in agriculture
0:29:22	Kim discusses how she and Connor are still learning about farming and the more helpful educational resources they have found
0:29:57	Connor discusses a local greenhouse company as an example of the growing movement to develop new farming models and dynamics
0:31:07	Connor discusses the differences between the primitive farming he did while employed at Historic Latta Plantation and the farming methods used at the Farm
0:32:25	Connor discusses how the shrinking agriculture scene in the surrounding community reduces available educational opportunities for farmers
0:33:07	Kim discusses the farming community, including the desire of local farmers to help each succeed to ensure future overall success of farming, as opposed to uncooperative competition
0:34:47	Connor discusses resources missing from the local community that could help the Farm and farmers in general
0:35:25	Connor offers an example of the need for readily-available specific training by discussing the intricacies of harvesting tomatoes
0:36:07	Connor and Kim discuss the limited number of qualified individuals and regulatory officials to provide appropriate training, inspections, licensures, and certifications for farming operations
0:38:12	Connor discusses the challenges of the organic licensure, certification, and labelling processes
0:40:27	Connor discusses future plans for the Farm, including development of better proper ecological practices and strategies
0:41:57	Connor discusses livestock raised on the Farm
0:43:07	Kim offers agricultural advice for people wishing to pursue agriculture as a hobby or profession
0:45:22	Connor discusses his ongoing environmental science studies and their relation to the success of the Farm
0:46:42	Kim discusses what the general public does not understand about farming
0:48:17	Connor discusses what the general public does not understand about farming
0:49:17	Kim discusses the general public’s misperceptions as to traditional farming practices, particularly as to raising livestock
0:50:52	Connor discusses the Farm’s efforts to implement and support good sustainable farming techniques as a model, especially for smaller operations

[tabby title='Transcript']

[00:00:09]

>> Tommy: All right, well so my name is Tommy Warlick and I'm here with Tom Grover from the UNCC History Department and we are working on the oral history project called the Queens Garden Oral Histories of the Piedmont Food Shed. Today is March 12, 2019, it's about 1 pm and we are at the Hodges Family Farm just off Rocky River Road East here in the outskirts of Mecklenburg County I guess it is.

[00:00:39]

And we're here with Connor Newman and Kim Hodges-

>> Kim: Schoch.

>> Tommy: Schoch, I knew I was gonna mess that up.

>> Kim: [LAUGH]

>> Tommy: And we are here to talk about the history of the Hodges Family Farm. So, I'm gonna ask each of you, if you don't mind Kim, I'll start with you, just tell us your name and tell us a little bit about your background as far as farming and agriculture goes.

[00:01:01]

>> Kim: Well, I'm Kimberly Hodges Schoch and I was actually born in Durham, North Carolina. My father is a Hodges he was Frank's son so, he was the youngest son out of the seven siblings, so his name is Charles Hodges. And he is a mechanical engineering in the aerospace industry, so we lived in Durham where his job was.

[00:01:25]

And we moved out to Colorado when I was in middle school and I started riding horses when I was out in Colorado, so that was about when I was 12 or so. And we came back to North Carolina a couple years later and I continued riding horses cuz I really fell in love with it.

[00:01:43]

I loved being out in the barn and doing barn chores and caring for the animals. All the way through college where I went to NC State for Animal Science and I got a four year degree there. During that time I had an internship in Kentucky for six months learning to care for broodmares and their babies, their foals, and I completed my degree and I moved to Australia in 2014.

[00:02:07]

And I was there for ten months, working out of broodmare, a facility there called Darley Stud. And after that concluded I came back home to United States and I was looking for a job and we needed some help on the farm after my uncle passed, and then I came out here, so I went from horses to just everyday farming.

[00:02:30]

I've learned most of what I know now from Connor, from my dad, from the internet, [LAUGH] from trial and error, and that's where I'm at today.

>> Tommy: Well that's great, Connor how about you?

>> Connor: Okay, I'm Connor Newman, my mother is Hodges, so she's one of the siblings.

[00:02:47]

She's obviously were cousins so her dad and my mom are siblings. And I guess, I was born actually in Clint in North Carolina and then my dad was in the military, so we lived in Germany for a few years came back and have been in Charlotte, North Carolina ever since then.

[00:03:09]

So I've kind of grown up around the farm and mostly just coming out here as a kid and wandering around and occasionally helping with chores. As I got a little bit older I'd come out and help Frank Junior with the hay, my uncle who passed away, stuff like that.

[00:03:27]

And in 2004 I started working at Historic Latta Plantation started off as a farmhand. They had about four cleared acres, living history farm where they grow cotton and plowed with mules and all that kind of stuff and I did that for 11 years, eventually becoming the farm interpretation manager.

[00:03:50]

It was my job to make farming relatable to the public, so I developed programs and did school groups and all that kind of thing as well as taking care of the animals and planting cotton by hand and all that kind of good stuff. [COUGH] Then I came out here in 2014, late 2014 my uncle said that he was looking towards retirement, his son was I think 16 at the time, 17 at the time, he was wanting to spend a little more time with him, as we've come to find, farming is quite time consuming.

[00:04:25]

So he was wanting to retire, step back a little bit, and he asked me if I'd be interested, and he had asked me for years, I don't know why but I said, at that time, yes. And I quit my job and came out here, and four months later, he passed away of a heart attack.

[00:04:41]

So ever since then, and like Kim said, we both just kind of happen to be at a transitional point and both ended up out here. And like she said, through trial and error and lots of YouTube videos and a lot of the other old farmers around here, it's still true that farming communities kind of stick together.

[00:05:01]

And a lot of these guys came out and helped us not kill ourselves on the equipment and cuz like I said plowed with mules and I don't know that Kim did much tractor work before came out here. But mules can hurt you but a tractor will just chew you up and spit you out, won't even feel bad about it.

[00:05:18]

#VALUE!#VALUE!#VALUE!

[00:05:43]

>> Tommy: So Hodges Family Farm has been around more than 100 years now and it's been in the same family the whole time, right?

>> Connor: Yes.

>> Tommy: And you're fourth generation?

>> Connor: We are the ninth generation.

>> Tommy: The ninth generation.

>> Connor: The ninth generation. Now her dad is actually the one that's done a lot with the genealogy and we can get you in contact with him as far as getting the finer point to that figured out, but to the best of my knowledge, we're the ninth generation to work this farm on this land in this area.

[00:06:14]

The Hodges been here since I think early 1700s. We have some family records going back to around Circa Revolutionary War, but we're actually registered as a centennial farm, cuz that's the most solid records are, so pre-Civil War.

>> Tommy: So, centennial meaning it's been around for 100-

>> Connor: Correct

[00:06:35]

>> Tommy: Years or so.

>> Connor: Yeah.

>> Tommy: And it's been always in this location?

>> Connor: For 100 years, yes, it's been on this farm.

>> Tommy: So tell me a little bit about the farm and what's it been raising over the years and sort of how that's changed.

>> Connor: [COUGH] Well, 100 years ago this would've been like most farms in North Carolina a subsistence farm.

[00:06:56]

It was the family and they did things like raising hogs, they raised some cotton, they raised some corn, a little bit of everything, basically the meaning of subsistence, they would, everything they needed, they got off the farm. As it progressed a little bit, they started selling some of their wares, baling some of their own cotton and selling that in town.

[00:07:17]

And then around [COUGH] in the early 1900's, it would've been probably by the 1920's that my grandfather and his brother that way would have been his father at the time they started getting into dairy. And then by the 30s and 40s my grandfather and his brother Buck Hodges started being dairymen and earnest, and it was a dairy farm until 1999.

[00:07:49]

After my grandfather had passed away and her uncle Frank sold the heard, with the blessing of the family is just dairy farming is 24, 7, its you are on-call the time no vacations, it's a lot to keep up with. So sold the herd in 99 and that's when Frankie started getting into Horses in summer camps and things like that, that kind of got our foot in the door as far as the agritourism.

[00:08:15]

And it's just kind of progressed from there.

>> Tommy: So it was your grandfather and his brother that started the dairy?

>> Connor: Yes.

>> Tommy: Okay, what were their names?

>> Connor: Buck Hodges and Frank Hodges Senior.

>> Tommy: Senior, okay, so that was Frankie's?

>> Connor: Frankie's father, correct.

>> Tommy: So what does the farm raise today?

[00:08:33]

What produce?

>> Connor: Today, up until the last year or so, it's primarily been hay and pumpkins. But in the last year, we've started going towards the, I guess you might call it the farm to table scene, or the direct to consumer market, where we're raising vegetables. We just put in a small greenhouse, a market garden.

[00:08:58]

We're doing many different varieties of pumpkins. We're set up to plant those, but now we're doing more edibles and things like that. We're raising beef cattle, hogs, chickens. Kind of going back to the old ways, where it's diversified a little bit.

>> Tommy: Now, can you do, you do primarily horses, are you doing horses here, or training, or racing, or?

[00:09:19]

>> Kim: No, not anymore. Horses are very time-consuming, and all the horses we have on the property are retired. They were what Frank Junior used for therapeutic riding programs, and lessons and things like that, but they are all a little bit too old to really use in a sustained lesson program.

[00:09:36]

It's kind to let them retire now. They've had a full life. So while I do oversee the care of the horses, my mom actually is the primary caregiver of them right now. She feeds them and gives them medication that they need, and we put hay in for them if they need it.

[00:09:52]

But my primary goal is to actually support production of produce and meat right now, because that's what's gonna be bringing in the income. So that can entail helping fix fences, and machinery, and digging. I have foam all over my hands from something I was doing earlier, some insulation installation.

[00:10:14]

And so, it's really anything that needs to be done, we're doing. Our job titles are kinda blurred. Obviously, Connor's still the manager, so he has our general direction. And we follow his direction, but that could mean that one day I'm cleaning a stall, the next day I'm replacing something on the tractor, the next day I'm painting a fence, or sitting down and doing the taxes.

[00:10:38]

So we just have a lot of diversification within our job roles.

>> Tommy: So you said we. So how many folks work here on the farm on a regular basis?

>> Connor: Two full-time employees, Kim and myself.

>> Tommy: Two of you, okay.

>> Connor: Yep. We have some help that comes out.

[00:10:56]

We've got a guy working with us right now, kind of on loan from the National Guard. He deploys in late summer, so we've got him for a little while. He's got a biology degree and has some experience in greenhouse, so he’s out here working with us on some of the vegetable production, and also just, you know, he’s a hard worker.

[00:11:16]

And he just inherited some land from his grandfather in the Dominican Republic, and is planning to go back there and farm. So he’s wanting to get some experience. So we’re kind of working together on that. And then a couple of kids, actually from UNC Charlotte, come out here on a regular basis and help us out around the farm.

[00:11:35]

>> Tommy: I saw on your website that you solicit volunteers to come out and help as well?

>> Connor: We do, we do. We have volunteers come out and help us with harvest, with taking care of chores. A lot of times with the horses. That's really where the volunteer program came from.

[00:11:50]

Was what my uncle called barn rats, where they would come in, and in exchange for riding time, they would clean stalls, pick feet, groom the horses, that kind of thing.

>> Tommy: So Frankie started this concept of sort of educational farming.

>> Connor: Mm-hm.

>> Tommy: What other educational aspects of the educational farming are you pursuing, or that you guys regularly do?

[00:12:13]

>> Connor: I mean, right now we're doing, we do a lot of school groups, we do several thousand children in October, that's our biggest month. We're looking into expanding throughout most of the year, but right now, October is still our biggest event We do a small event in spring, a little bit during the summer, things like that.

[00:12:30]

But October is our pumpkin patch, and you know, we might have 6 or 8,000 kids and teachers out here, and then 10 to 20,000 people just general public, come out here and pick pumpkins, and watch demonstrations, and things like that.

>> Tommy: Now, would that be over the course of October?

[00:12:47]

>> Connor: Over the course of October, yes.

>> Tommy: Wow, that's a lot of folks.

>> Connor: Yeah, it is. And it technically starts the last week of September, so there's a couple extra days in there. But it's a lot to pack into roughly a month.

>> Tommy: Well, then I've seen you.

[00:13:01]

We're sitting right now in the bridal suite of the 1932 barn that you guys have renovated as an events facility.

>> Connor: Mm-hm.

>> Tommy: You do mud runs. I see you're doing a lot of other kind of opportunities. Where are these ideas coming from? What's driving these different uses of this facility?

[00:13:21]

>> Connor: Well, a lot of people approach us. Now, Kim's dad, Charles Hodges, is the business manager, so a lot of times he finds some of these people that wanna come in, and there's kind of a process. We wanna make sure that it's a good fit for our property.

[00:13:37]

It's just a two-lane road out here, so we have kind of, over trial and error, figured out what our road capacity is. Cuz we don't wanna upset our neighbors. We try and be good neighbors, in the community, so. Sometimes there'll be two or three events a year, sometimes four to six events a year, and a lot of times, they'll approach us looking for a place close to a urban center, but enough land to actually put in, like, an obstacle course race.

[00:14:10]

We work with Savage Race every year, and they bring out about 3 or 4,000 people. I'd say that's about the top end of what we like to have out here.

>> Tommy: So tell me, those are sort of unique things. I mean, are those opportunities necessary to keep the operation going?

[00:14:26]

Or are you just coming up with new and interesting ways to use the facility?

>> Connor: It's a little bit of both. I mean, definitely, the income from the leases or rentals pay the bills, and that kind of thing. We still have to stay in agricultural production, and that's our primary goal.

[00:14:45]

Just for good stewardship of the land, and also as far as the government's concerned, us being a farm. So agriculture is our primary occupation, but yeah, it's a great way to integrate with the community. We have a lot of neighbors come in, and they really enjoy being able to run around the farm, and get a little bit dirty, and watch the cows and horses as they run a race, or after parties, they typically do it one of our ten acre fields.

[00:15:13]

They kinda get a good view after their run. So, it's a little bit of everything. Community building, income, and they're just fun.

>> Tommy: Well now, your farmland is literally split by Rocky River Road, right? So you've got acreage on both sides of the road?

>> Connor: Yes.

>> Tommy: Okay, and you're talking about the community, the community's really come to you.

[00:15:34]

I mean, this was more of a rural part of the county for a long time, wasn't it?

>> Connor: Mm-hm.

>> Tommy: And now you're sort of starting to get hemmed in by some residential areas, and-

>> Connor: Yeah.

>> Tommy: How is that impacting what you guys do, and how you can use your farm the way you would like to use it?

[00:15:49]

>> Kim: We can't play ball in the streets anymore. [LAUGH] We used to be able to be out in the Rocky River Road playing ball, and say, car, and get out of the road, but definitely can't do that anymore. [LAUGH].

>> Connor: Yeah, not so much. Yeah, I mean, increased traffic.

[00:16:09]

That kind of thing. Really, it, I mean there's lots of ways that it's impacted. For one thing, we're a part of, we're subject to a lot of the things that you have to, Charlotte Code and that kind of thing. We can't have a bonfire bigger than three by three feet because that's what on the Charlotte code.

[00:16:29]

Even though we're Mecklenburg County, we're not Charlotte were part of their extra jurisdictual area. So yeah, a few little odds and ends like that but honestly, it's business as usual, different technology, different people, but we're doing the same thing here that we've been doing for 200 years.

>> Kim: I think it's also beneficial because a lot of urban children don't get to see a lot of wide open spaces so if they do come out to visit us they may have never seen a goat before.

[00:16:57]

They may have never see what a barn is or a tractor up close or where their food comes from. So it helps reinforce the fact that we do need barns to keep feeding them and might encourage them to do some urban growing too. Some of the techniques that we use out here can translate pretty well to an urban environment to encourage people to grow their own food.

[00:17:21]

Yes we sell food but we also want to give them an experience that can enrich their lives with.

>> Tommy: That's really great. Tell me how do you work with kids to get them to grasp these lessons cuz I mean that's, they're watching TV, they're on the Internet. How are to reaching out to them and getting them to understand this?

[00:17:39]

>> Kim: Well, our main education program that we do in October is actually like a five rotation experience for children and we are working with younger children now. We'd like to expand into older grades and stuff like that, but typically third grade and younger are what we're doing. We have rotation.

[00:17:58]

So the first one will be the animal barn experience. They get to walk around and see the animals. Ask them what the animals provide for the community and talk about how we have to care for the animals and what to feed them and where they live and what their names are so they can become familiar with them.

[00:18:16]

We do pests and pollinators so they can become familiar with different bugs and things like that, what helps the pumpkins grow or what hurts the pumpkins or why we need some of these pests or pollinators to help us. We pick a pumpkin, so that's fairly straight forward. They get to go down to the patch, see where the pumpkins are growing, see the vines, the flowers and start to understand companion crops, cuz we plant things other than pumpkins in there to help the pumpkins.

[00:18:43]

And we have how the pumpkin grows, so we have another instructor going about how it starts from a seed and it goes to a seedling to a vine to a flower to a pumpkin, and then they get to plant their own pumpkin. So, we have a little seed and a cup of dirt, we talk about what's important, what they need.

[00:19:03]

They need sunlight and soil and water and space. And so, they'll put a little seed in a little solo cup, we send it home with them, and in the classroom teachers can let it sprout and so they can see how long it takes to germinate and things like that.

[00:19:17]

So we try to encourage them to ask questions during this. This takes about an hour and a half so it's a very immersive experience about what plants and crops are. And then they still can go back to the classroom and continue they're learning too.

>> Tommy: That's great. Now switching gears on you, you mentioned the farm to table aspect of it and you guys getting back to more broader crop ranges, how did you get that going again?

[00:19:47]

That certainly started almost from scratch I guess and in setting up this distribution networks at all, how do you go about getting back on it?

>> Connor: Well, to be quite honest, we're still working on it. Primarily what we're doing now is the produce that we're growing is sold on farm.

[00:20:05]

We haven't really started distributing to any restaurants or, really, anywhere else, it's pretty much we grow it here and we sell it here. That's how we've done the pumpkin patch. So, and this will be the first year. Like I said, we just put in a greenhouse. We've just put in a market garden.

[00:20:22]

So, this will be the first year that we're really growing a lot of produce, raising the meat and eggs, and that kind of thing. So, we're gonna start with what we know on farm sales and then we'll explain from there.

>> Connor: So, yeah, right now it's [NOISE] kind of in the beginning.

[00:20:49]

>> Tommy: Are there organizations that you can work with that can help you get your produce into these restaurants or in these channels?

>> Connor: Sure. Yeah, there's the extension office is always willing to help and the extension office works with NC State and they have a lot of programs trying to connect farms and producers with the community.

[00:21:11]

And there's actually an app that I believe is in the trial stages right now. They're only a few counties in North Carolina, but it's visitnc.com. And that's what they're trying to do, is they're trying to create an interface that people are used to in a form of an application on your phone or your tablet and you type in what you're looking for and it tells you where you can buy it local and fresh.

[00:21:35]

And it's just the whole purpose of it is to connect farmers with the community.

>> Tommy: So run an operation like this it got to be pretty big. And you mentioned that you have a business manager. How do you manage and mitigate the losses or risks associated with crop losses or just expenses in general?

[00:21:57]

>> Connor: Well, that's one of the things that drove us to become more diversified. It's kinda like if you're gonna put together a stock investment portfolio, you don't just put everything, all your eggs in one basket, you diversify and that's essentially what we're doing just on the farm. So if we are growing tomatoes and squash, and onions, and hay, and pigs, and cows you know if we have, we had some crazy weather last couple of years.

[00:22:23]

Last year we lost over seven acres of pumpkins. But we grew 21 different varieties, so some that didn't do so well when it was inundated with rain and then when we had a several week dry spell. We lost some pumpkins in both of those weather events but since we grew so many different kinds, and at the time we were also growing strawberries, and that kind of thing.

[00:22:42]

You know, when one thing doesn't do well, when one door shuts, kind of a window opens and we just kinda, that's our business plan, is diversify. As you asked a little bit ago, that's also why we do the programs in advance. It keeps us relevant in the community.

[00:23:03]

Keeps us on people's mind and it's also a diversified revenue stream.

>> Tommy: So how does the weather impact what you guys do grow? I mean, you're spread out amongst various things. Are there things you just won't do anymore because of the weather? Or things that you're starting to experiment with now because the weather's changing a bit?

[00:23:21]

>> Connor: Well, one of the things that we do now is we don't do any tillage anymore. And so we used to, to try and break some weed and pest cycles over the winter. Every time it would freeze we would till the fields and that the theory behind that is you're bringing up the eggs that the squash for moths are laying in the soil and your bringing those up to where they'll freeze.

[00:23:44]

You're bringing up wheat seeds, and they'll germinate in the sunlight and then they'll freeze, and you know, things like that. And well, that's common practice, but if we had done that this past winter and then had record rainfall, we would've lost topsoil, nutrients, we would've muddied up the waterways.

[00:24:03]

So that's one thing we've done and it was kind of something we decided to do and it's just been proving itself over and over again. Again, keeping the ground covered, stops erosion, it keeps the ground moist during drought times. Usually you're gonna see about a 5 to 10 degree difference in the summertime.

[00:24:21]

The ground's gonna be 5 to 10 degrees cooler if you've got it covered. And the opposite in the wintertime. When I took measurements out here and the ground was 39 degrees when it was 25 degrees outside. So it makes a big difference. So that’s one of our main kinda tenants out here, is keep the ground covered.

[00:24:40]

>> Tommy: I know you mentioned earlier talking about technology and how that's changed. I know you've been kicking around the farm here since you where little. How's the technology changed that you’ve seen? How does that impact of what you do here on a daily basis?

>> Connor: Well, for one thing, one of the things that Kim pointed out is we have YouTube now.

[00:25:00]

And I know that might sound silly, but there's been a lot of times when I'm out there on the tractor. And I can't find somebody that knows how to work on a 1985 Ford 7610 and I'll look it up on YouTube. And I'm able to sit out there in the field and instead of having to drive across town to the only tractor dealer left in Charlotte I can look it up on YouTube, fix it myself, and I'm back to work.

[00:25:21]

So I'm not losing half a day out in the field. So I'd say social media is a great way for us to connect with people. It's a great way for us to see what other farms are doing and to share our ideas with them and get ideas from them as well for our farm [COUGH].

[00:25:40]

Yeah, I'll even say things like Amazon. So a lot of your online stuff. I can go on Amazon now, and since we are near a hub, I can order parts that I need. I can order my solar-powered chicken coop door that opens first thing in the morning, and closes when it gets dark on Amazon and it's here tomorrow.

[00:25:58]

It saves us a lot of time and when you are working on something this big with just a couple of people, time ends up being one of your most valuable commodities. So technology has allowed us to save a lot of time.

>> Tommy: So what's the farming community like in this area of Charlotte?

[00:26:17]

What has been your experience of the farming community here?.

>> Connor: To be honest, a lot of the farmers, and now we have a cousin across the road, second cousin, and he raises Charolais beef cows and hay and compost. And he does a little bit of everything like a lot of farmers do.

[00:26:36]

But other than that we're some of the last ones in the community. When I first started out here, I went to the extension office trying to figure out how to do the soil samples and that kind of thing. And at first they are giving me an explanation of how to do it in a yard.

[00:26:56]

And I said, no, not a yard, I need to sample 57 acres. And all of a sudden they perk up and I am the first person that is asked about something over a quarter acre lot in five years. So before I know it I am surrounded by five or six master gardeners and a couple of extension agents asking what we are doing, explaining to me how to takethe samples and things like that.

[00:27:18]

So there is not a whole lot left in Charlotte, but you go to the surrounding areas and there's still some, not a lot of young people. I think the average age of a farmer in, I think, the United States is about 65. So a lot of them are kinda getting towards that retirement age.

[00:27:38]

But there are a few of us, there are just are a few younger people.

>> Tommy: Well, I was gonna ask you, how old are you, if you don't mind me asking?

>> Connor: 32.

>> Tommy: Okay, cuz I thought you are p pretty oung for this kind of an operation.

[00:27:47]

>> Connor: [LAUGH]

>> Tommy: I wanna ask you cuz it's-

>> Kim: I'm 28 [INAUDIBLE].

>> Tommy: Okay. [LAUGH]

>> Kim: [LAUGH] But what's also encouraging is while a lot of the larger farmers or farms are generally run by older farmers. We've come to find that there is a new kind of wave of, like I said earlier, urban farmers that have five acres or so.

[00:28:08]

That are kind of inspired by some of the same people that we are about this no-till in holistic farming. Those are just some top words that you'll see if you Google. And have small operations with high intensity outputs which is kind of what we're trying to mimic with our market garden which is a third of an acre.

[00:28:26]

But we're trying to really get a lot produced on a third of acre using the companion crops and no-till agriculture and things like that. Just last week we went and bought a few hogs from a guy who was probably around our age. He had hogs, he had chickens, he had geese, he had all kinds of things.

[00:28:48]

So some of the farmers are aging out, but then there's another community kind of rising up to meet that small but highly productive farm. So we're kinda trying to merge those two things. Have our sizable farm, but still have high intensity outputs from smaller areas, if that makes sense.

[00:29:09]

>> Tommy: Now you mentioned that, so that's sort of a different class of farming now, this urban farming going on.

>> Kim: Right.

>> Tommy: Are you in communication with those types of folks or they reaching out to you to get some ideas or they learn it from you how to do things?

[00:29:21]

>> Kim: I don't think we're teachers at this point so much as learners. So there's a few big names out there that we draw inspiration from like Gay Brown. And we read a lot of books [LAUGH] to continue learning and seeing what people have been doing. And I see there's Joel Salatin, there's, I don't know, David Montgomery is a good one.

[00:29:48]

And anyways [LAUGH] we are trying to find something that works that can keep us relevant in the community and that's just seems to be one of them.

>> Connor: And also people that we got our greenhouse from.

>> Kim: Sure.

>> Connor: They're kind of a classic part of this movement, they're around our age.

[00:30:07]

I think they're just a little bit older than I am. But they started in their solarium on the back of their house. And actually they tell a good story about a farm tour coming through and they signed up for it. And ended up having a farm tour come through their solarium because that was their farm, that's where they produced.

[00:30:26]

And then they bought this greenhouse and then they expanded to a larger greenhouse and we bought their own greenhouse. And so Kim makes an excellent point. That is where you're gonna see this come to life, it's maybe a different iteration than the classic, a 100, 200, 300 acre farm producing corn and cows.

[00:30:47]

But there is a movement coming up, or at least there seems to be, we hope there is.

>> Tommy: So, Connor, you had a sort of a unique experience of going from old-time farming, if you will, with the mule, over that plantation to a little bit more mechanized operation here.

[00:31:06]

What are some of the challenges and options that you've incurred as you've confront through that transition?

>> Connor: Well, initially it all seemed alien to me. As we kinda came into our stride, I started realizing that a lot of the techniques that we practise there. I mean we composed out there, out here I tried to reinvent the wheel reading all these books on compost.

[00:31:32]

And really it's essentially the same thing we're doing at Atlanta. Just instead of turning it by hand I'm out there turning it with the tractor. And instead of one big pile we do it in a wind road to increase surface area and get more oxygen to it, things like that.

[00:31:45]

So that might be a good way to describe it. Is knowing when and when not to reinvent the wheel and how to apply those. When I need to do a little more research and when I need to just kinda trust our guts and go with what we know.

[00:32:06]

That way we don't spend all of our time on YouTube and reading books, although we do spend a lot [LAUGH].

>> Tommy: So you mentioned co-ops, I mean You guys are doing a class tomorrow, I think you said, for continuing education. Are there enough of those around that can deal with the questions and issues that you've got to be helpful to you?

[00:32:25]

>> Connor: There are, there's a lot of that coming up. We went to a meat marketing conference not too long ago that dealt primarily with organic and grass-fed beef and pork and chicken and that kind of thing and we got to listen to a panel. And we actually did a question and answer portion of the seminar where we got to talk to a panel of people that have been doing it for say five years or more and had kind of built successful businesses.

[00:32:54]

And we just sat in a gymnasium for a couple hours and got the list of questions and there were things like that that pop up all over the place. Sometimes we have to travel a little bit to find it as I said, there's not a whole lot of agriculture in Charlotte but an hour, two hours outside.

[00:33:10]

And we can usually find something.

>> Kim: And it's encouraging cuz the community wants to see the community move forward too. Farming isn't a competition. We're competing against record-breaking rain or drought, or something like that. Farmers on a whole wanna see other farmers do well, because that's how we're gonna feed people is that everyone succeeds.

[00:33:32]

So, more often than not, they're very receptive to teaching or saying this is how they've done it and like helping us if we have questions. One of the biggest resources we had while we're out here and still have is that there's some old-timey farmers that run this Stumptown Tractor Club.

[00:33:52]

So they come out in October and have this exhibition of their big old tractors and steam engines and things like that, and Joe Ferguson he's the president of it, lives down the street. We still have one of his tedders out here that we use sometimes, he is more than happy to answer any questions, or talk over something with us, or help us work through something, or show us how this machine is run.

[00:34:14]

Cuz some of the machines that we still have are 40 or 50 years old. And he's got experience with those for 40 or 50 years, and he's happy to come help us if we have a question. So we are very much supported by the community, still. Not only Charlotte as a community but the community of older farmers wanting to see us do well.

[00:34:35]

So it's very encouraging.

>> Tommy: So what kind of resources are not available to you here that would help your operations that are not really available here in the Charlotte region, that are holding back farming, if you will.

>> Connor: A perfect example is our FSMA training that we're going for tomorrow.

[00:34:56]

>> Tommy: I'm not familiar with that.

>> Connor: FSMA is F-S-M-A, it's the Food Safety Modernization Act. It's coming down the pipeline and it starts affecting small farms in 2020-2021 based on gross income, what you're producing, all that kind of thing. And it's just kind of, a lot of it's common sense.

[00:35:16]

We joke because the guidance is a whole lot of words about just basically don't soil your vegetables and then sell them to people. But I mean there are finer points, like a lot of people don't realize when you pick tomatoes out of the field before you wash them you need to bring them to the same temperature or a lower temperature than the water you're washing them in.

[00:35:34]

Because they've got a permeable skin, anything on that skin from the field, whether it's bird droppings or what have you, will get sucked into that tomato. Same thing with eggs. So there are some finer points that you really do need somebody that knows what they're talking about to explain it to you.

[00:35:50]

It's not necessarily common sense. And the closest FSMA training that we could find is in Salisbury, so tomorrow morning we're gonna get here early and be up in Salisbury at 8 o'clock in the morning. So it'd be nice if it was at the extension office, which is 12 minutes down the road.

[00:36:07]

But right now, we would probably be the only ones in the class and, yeah, the lady that runs up that training program, she services North Carolina, so she's got 100 hundred counties to worry about. And that's something you see a lot too, same thing with the state veterinarian.

[00:36:23]

He came by and showed us how to tag our hogs, and that kinda thing, and he was leaving here to go to Wilmington. And then leaving there to go up to Jackson County, so all over the place. I mean these guys are putting some miles on their vehicles.

[00:36:37]

>> Kim: I think there's only one man certified for egg grading from the USDA in North Carolina.

>> Connor: Yeah, we did an egg grading course.

>> Kim: And we did an egg grading course with them. And so he came in and he services the entire state, just one man.

>> Tommy: So do you have to make an appoint with him to come and grade your eggs or is he just showing you how to do it?

[00:36:59]

>> Kim: The class was, he had other, he had a, what was her name? He had an assistant with him. She was actually teaching the class. He was just there for the finer points. If we had questions about the USDA was concerned with or not. You do not have to have your eggs USDA certified to sell them, if you are under five thousand dollars, don't quote me on that I'm not sure if that's correct.

[00:37:26]

#VALUE!#VALUE!#VALUE!

>> Connor: Once you surpass 30 dozen eggs a week, then you have to grade your eggs. You can do it yourself, and they suggest training. And it's kinda one of those things if somebody whistle blows on you that you're selling dirty eggs or something like that, the gentleman that Candice is talking about it is a USDA compliance officer.

[00:37:46]

And he comes down, inspects your operation and he can shut it down, make you go take further training, issue a fine, that kind of thing.

>> Tommy: So you mentioned the organic farming. Are you guys starting, you're starting to go that way, is there a particular training you've gotta do to get that certification, or to have your products deemed as appropriately organic, or anything like that?

[00:38:10]

I'm just not familiar with that.

>> Connor: Well yeah organic, the privilege of labeling your produce, or beef, or what have you. Organic is basically a licensure or a certification that you get from the USDA and you do have to go through a process. You have to have a certifying agent come out and inspect your property, inspect your, you have to have a best management practices plan out there.

[00:38:41]

So you say how you take care of your crops, how you handle disease outbreak or something like that. How you would quarantine certain foodstuffs to keep public health intact and all that kind of thing. Just basically it's a lot of paperwork and you have to show that you're using all organic methods.

[00:39:02]

Now that's another thing that is in short supply. I think there's something like 13 or 16 certified agents in the US. So the closest one we could find- well, Clemson, South Carolina is a certifying agent, the university, but they only serve South Carolina. So the next closest one for us was Pennsylvania.

[00:39:23]

So we would have to pay for an inspector to come down here and inspect our, whatever we want certified organic. And you keep it up annually, you get inspected annually, you pay a fee to the certified agency, that kind of thing. We've considered it and right now it's also a three year probation to get into the program.

[00:39:46]

So we have to keep records of managing our property and our produce, anything we are producing on the farm organically, and then we have them come inspect. They look through our records. They say you're doing this right, you're doing this wrong. They do some soil samples to make sure that we say we haven't sprayed in three years.

[00:40:07]

We really haven't sprayed in three years, that kinda thing. And if you pass all that, then you can put USDA Certified Organic And I call her auto purpose.

>> Tommy: So you guys have done a lot of things right now.

>> Connor: [LAUGH]

>> Tommy: I mean a lot, where do you see the operations in five years?

[00:40:26]

Where are you aiming for right now?

>> Connor: Well, we just want to get, the things that we're working on right now. We want to get those stabilized and then kind of expand them. So right now we're working on getting about 20 to 25 hogs, something like that. And the type of farming we're doing, whether you call them regenerative, or sustainable, or organic is based a lot on synergies and ecology.

[00:40:59]

So you run cows through a pasture first, and then you run sheep through the pasture because they eat different plants and are affected by different parasites than cows are. And then you run pigs through there because they'll go through and kind of disturb the roots and get the pasture going again, and then you leave it fallow for a little while.

[00:41:16]

So what we've tried to do is kind of look at what makes sense from an ecologic perspective, to take advantage of the ecological niches that we have on the farm. And that's what we've kinda used to guide, okay, we're gonna use grains and legumes in this field. And then we're gonna follow that by different livestock.

[00:41:37]

And that's kinda how we've set up our baseline of what species and cultivars of crops we want to use. Starting off small, kind of starting off slow, and then we're gonna try and build that. Like expand by 10% every year.

>> Tommy: So we've currently got beef cattle, chickens, pigs, what other livestock do we have?

[00:42:03]

>> Connor: We've got some other livestock, they're mainly for educational groups. We do sheep, because we teach kids about wool and where textiles come from and that kind of thing. We've got a small flock of chicken separate from the other chickens, they are show chickens. We talked the kids about the eggs and that kind of thing, we've got a couple of goats, and that's kind of probably a whole another level from when I work it.

[00:42:26]

We basically had a representation of all the animals you would find on a working farm. So we've kind of replicated that here and we have our core group of animals goats, pigs, chicken, sheep, couple of miniature horse and donkey, and stuff like that. Yeah, something that the kids can relate to look at one or two of them, they really kind of get something out of their visit.

[00:42:50]

>> Tommy: So, you guys really had a steep learning curve, and it's really sort of hit hard and fast. What kind of advice would you have for somebody that was trying to get in agriculture right now or thinking about getting into farming on a little bit more than just a casual basis?

[00:43:06]

>> Connor: Kim, you want to take one?

>> Kim: [LAUGH]

>> Connor: I feel like I've been talking too much.

>> Kim: I would say read a lot, and learn as much as you can on the books. Don't do everything by the books, it's not gonna be the same on your farm as it would be on whomever's farm you're reading about.

[00:43:22]

But research the kind of farm that you would like to do and kinda have your in goal in mind when you start. So be able to plan for what you would like to happen. So like how we would love to grow food for the community and people can come and pick baskets, gather and go home and cook a meal.

[00:43:41]

Do you want to sell directly to the public? Do you want to do wholesale? Do you want to do CSAs? Stuff like that, and research different methods. I like that we've researched into how to do things ecologically. Connor's doing it an environmental science degree right now, he's working on that to help learn how everything works cohesively and plan for the future.

[00:44:09]

Because if you farm intensively on a crop and you just take everything from the land it's not gonna sustain itself. You're gonna over-farm it and then you're gonna have to move on. They're not making more land out there. What's here is here, and so learn to care about what you have.

[00:44:26]

And if you have a backyard that's only like 500 square feet, you probably can do something out of there. There's a whole different branch our culture hydroponics, things like that, so you kind of have to focus a little bit about what you want in the future and make a tree, branch out from there.

[00:44:49]

You can get bogged down by a little stuff very easily. And we know that everyday, everyday we're like, we need to clean this up, we need to do this and then we're like, okay. Pull back, what do we need to do right now to further our plan for the future instead of cleaning up this stuff that's been sitting here for 30 years.

[00:45:07]

Well, yes, we need to do that but we also needed to focus on this vehicle to sell eggs in September. So things like that.

>> Tommy: So where are you working on your Gardenal Science degree?

>> Connor: University of Phoenix.

>> Tommy: Really?

>> Connor: Yeah, it's about the only way I can do it.

[00:45:23]

I like the way they set up their program. They've got over 20 years of online class experience. Made sense for me cuz I've got a two-year-old at home so so I do this and then play with him for a little bit and then do my classes. And yeah, it's started at Central Piedmont years ago and got half a degree.

[00:45:44]

At that time, I thought I wanted to be a physical therapist. So I took some of the biology and stuff like that that actually tied into this. And environmental science degree hit all the points I was looking for. It focuses a lot on agriculture because that's where a lot of it, where one person controls a large amount of environment is in agriculture, or just a few people.

[00:46:09]

And it goes into how ecology works, and we can apply that directly to our fields and I should be graduating in, I believe, in 2020.

>> Tommy: Congratulations, that's fantastic.

>> Connor: Thank you.

>> Tommy: So, since you're doing educational farming for folks, what are some of the misperceptions or the confusions that you see people have when they come out here and listen to you talk and the light bulb goes on?

[00:46:37]

What don't they understand about farming?

>> Kim: It's not just picking the vegetables, [LAUGH] a lot goes on behind the scenes, not only do we raise the pumpkins and the plant them and stuff, but we're fixing fences. We have to, sometimes your own engineer like these [INAUDIBLE] aren't made anymore.

[00:46:59]

How do we make it work? Or, we don't just take the winter off. We have plumbing projects, we have electrical, there's always coding being updated. And so we are trying to keep everything safe and up-to-date and fix things, [LAUGH], and sometimes things come up that you don't even think about.

[00:47:16]

Like, the veterinary needs to come out because your horse stepped on a nail or something like that. If they see a lame horse, it's probably not because we neglect them but we're working on making them better. And it's just you might see things and go they must be doing that wrong or they must not care about this cuz it needs new paint or something.

[00:47:37]

But that costs a lot of money too, and they think yeah, well, this land and this equipment and stuff like that, they must be rich.

>> Connor: [LAUGH]

>> Kim: While there's a lot of money tied up in that land and those buildings and those machineries, and we're sometimes barely scraping by.

[00:47:53]

So I think that's a big misconception, is that if they see you have this big farm they just automatically assume that you have endless streams of revenue coming in. Or you can just sit back and drive your BMW to the beach. And during the summer when you need a harvest, to take care of pests and things like that, so.

[00:48:12]

I know that people think farmers are hard workers They just don't always see the inputs that it takes to run the farm as well.

>> Connor: And I'd say that's something that a lot of people don't realize too is it's difficult to conceive a scale that you're working on.

[00:48:29]

And I'm not talking about super farms. I'm talking about even for your backyard garden. A lot of people don't realize well most vegetables need an inch [INAUDIBLE] right but what does that mean well that's that translates to every square 100 feet about 62 gallons once a week. So you got to think about, what does that translate to to an acre which is 43,560, square feet.

[00:48:50]

Yeah, that's a lot of water and then people here numbers like that and I assume you're wasting it but what you're actually doing is storing that water in the plants. It transpires out of the plants, goes back into the atmosphere. So people were either shocked, or underwhelmed, or overwhelmed and there's just not a lot of realistic perspective or our perception of scape when it comes to agriculture

[00:49:18]

>> Kim: And I also want to say conventional farmers like people are so upset about some of the traditional practices, and while we don't use a lot of them but farmers aren't trying to hurt their animals, they're not trying to treat them badly. If you treat your animals poorly they're not going to produce well for you as a farmer or it makes it sound like it's the bottom line, it's not.

[00:49:37]

I mean I can't count the number of times Connor or I have been out here in the middle of the night with a sick pig, or a sick goat or taking lambs home and putting diapers on them so they don't poop all over your house. We do truly care about our animals, yes, they might be meat production animals or, but we want them to be the happiest that they can be when they're here.

[00:49:58]

So we do produce meat products, but we also very much care about our cows and our pigs our chickens and everything like that. So we for example, we just got 200 chickens and every single one of the ones that didn't make it cuz chickens are very fragile when they're babies and you're gonna lose a few.

[00:50:17]

And every single one I was sad about as I had to take it out and care about it, and I'm a little soft hearted. [LAUGH] But I think that also makes me compassionate and good with the animals because I'm more perceptive as to if they need help or if they need something done for them so, that as well.

[00:50:37]

>> Tommy: Why not jump around a lot on you guys? Are there any questions that I did not ask you that I should have asked you or anything else you like, you care to share with us?

>> Connor: I mean, honestly, I think you hit most of the main points, what sets us apart from maybe your typical farm or what you see on TV as a farm are the methods that we use.

[00:51:00]

The fact that we are trying to show other people. Like Kim pointed out, yes, there's gonna be competition within any market, especially with similar goods and methods. But a lot of people that are apart of this movement, they want there to be more sustainable farms, rather than one centralized hog farm, in the flat lands of North Carolina that has thousands of hogs in it.

[00:51:29]

It makes more sense you're gonna get fresher food, better nutrients [INAUDIBLE] and it's gonna be better for the land and animals if you have more small operations. So just that's the kind of thing that anybody that's part of that movement is wanting people to realize, is support small farms whether it's ours or not when you can.

[00:51:53]

And I think we really I think we touched on just about every aspect of that.

>> Tommy: Well, I can't thank you enough for your time. We really appreciate it. One last question I have abuse is there anybody that you can think of that we all reach out to and, and speak with on these types of issues with regard to chat and the Greater Charlotte area?

[00:52:15]

>> Connor: I would suggest maybe talking to Lucky Leaf Gardens, they're the ones that we got the.

>> Tommy: Lucky Leaf?

>> Connor: Lucky Leaf, yeah, Mark and Kate, and I've forgotten their last name. But they're the ones we bought our greenhouse from, and they have a neat story, they've been very successful in what they're doing, they're passionate about what they're doing and they kinda, they do everything organically.

[00:52:39]

I don't think they're certified organic. I could be wrong about that but they care about what they're doing and I'd be proud to call them colleagues.

>> Connor: I can't think of anybody else off the top of the head.

>> Kim: If you want to talk to like the old school, kind of side of things maybe Anson at Feed Mill, Bevel Feed Mill.

[00:53:00]

>> Connor: Sure, Anson Eves.

>> Tommy: Anson Eves?

>> Connor: Yes, he works at.

>> Tommy: Is he from Midland?

>> Connor: Yeah, do you know him?

>> Tommy: I know his sister, sister used to work for me, his sister Carla is a lawyer.

>> Kim: Okay.

>> Tommy: She used to work for me so.

[00:53:17]

>> Kim: But he works he distributes green and stuff and he does horses cows stuff and his family as you probably know and farmland out there.

>> Tommy: I completely forgot about ants, and that's great, I'll have to give him a call.

>> Connor: We work with a lot, and you can ask him about Connor and his crazy cover crop questions.

[00:53:36]

I'm calling him all the time and asking him. Cuz like Kim said, don't just take everything you read for gospel, cuz it's not always gonna work in your environment. So when we read something from [INAUDIBLE] or something that some practice that a farmer in North Dakota is using, I call Anson and I say, hey, do you have any experience with this crop?

[00:53:54]

He's and that kind of stuff so with this grow here what's your experience with this? He's been doing it for a long time, he's dad a farmer.

>> Tommy: Yeah.

>> Connor: Yeah, as you know, and he's always willing to share information. So I call Anson maybe more than he would like, but he's a good, good source of information.

[00:54:12]

>> Tommy: [INAUDIBLE] You take care of the equipment, Air Force.

[tabby title='Captioned Audio'] [tabbyending]

Lucy Bush Carter is the Executive Director of Friendship Trays, a nonprofit organization located in SouthEnd Charlotte. Friendship Trays is the only non-governmental Charlotte-based organization creating and delivering healthy meals to elderly and infirm community members in their homes. Friendship Trays produces over 700 meals per day and operates with a volunteer base of over 1,300 volunteers. It takes 101 volunteers per day to deliver the meals throughout Charlotte. Lucy began volunteering with Friendship Trays in 1985, she was then hired as staff in the 1990s, and became Executive Director in the 2000s. In this interview, Ms. Bush provides an interesting perspective in regards to  the mission of Friendship Trays, daily operations, the creation of Friendship Gardens, and food distribution throughout Mecklenburg County. She explains how Friendship Trays introduced the concept of Friendship Gardens in Charlotte, started the Urban Farm (now located at Garinger High School), the collection of produce they acquire and how Friendship Trays incorporates fresh produce into their meal program.

[tabby title='Tape Log']

Time	Subject
0:00:07	Introduction
0:01:23	History of Friendship Trays
0:02:27	Local churches that sponsored weekly lunches for elderly in Elizabeth
0:02:56	Original model of delivering meals
0:03:47	1989 Friendship Trays makes decision to upfit kitchen at St. Martin’s to prepare meals themselves
0:05:17	Beginning of the collaboration between Friendship Trays and Friendship Gardens
0:06:27	Partnered with Slow Food Charlotte
0:07:12	Expanded the program to establish urban farm
0:07:47	Purpose of Friendship Gardens
0:08:17	Food used by Friendship Trays to produce meals, first farm at a nearby prison
0:09:27	Partnered with J. L. North to start seeds in greenhouse
0:10:27	Access to good, healthy food as a shared initiative
0:11:59	The Bulb, partner organization of mobile units for mobile farmers markets
0:13:15	Democratic National Convention model legacy programming
0:14:32	Volunteers working the Friendship Garden at Garinger High School plot
0:15:27	Types of produce received from the farm at Garinger
0:16:38	Growing season in Charlotte, amount of produce received
0:17:43	Faith organizations that bring mission groups to Friendship Trays
0:18:22	Salad Dressing Pilot program as a fundraiser
0:19:29	Front office staff ensuring Friendship Trays has enough volunteers
0:20:47	Friendship Trays providing more than just food but also peace of mind to families
0:21:22	Lucy tells the story of a long time volunteer delivering to a man who had fallen and broken his hip
0:23:07	More than just food - Talking about food volunteer
0:23:22	Service routes and food routes
0:24:07	Talks about her time as a volunteer and how she began by taking her two year old son with her
0:24:53	Established a weekend meal program through Presbyterian Hospital
0:25:29	Talks about the human interaction that the service provides
0:25:56	Talks about her time as a volunteer and the different types of clients served
0:27:20	A story of a client who lived in a garage apartment
0:28:12	Lucy expands on her personal relationship with clients and caring for them even after the meal service has ended
0:29:22	The challenges of working in a economically segregated city and diverse range of clientele, primary challenge is finances and funding
0:30:22	Declining government interest in taking care of people and reliance on nonprofit s
0:31:12	Revenue generating streams and need for new ideas
0:32:03	Fundraising for Friendship Trays and Friendship Gardens
0:32:39	Collaboration with existing nonprofits and corporations
0:33:33	Lucy explains the misconception between food capacity and food distribution
0:33:55	Problems with food distribution in Charlotte and compared to Atlanta
0:34:24	Income segregation and gentrification in neighborhoods Friendship Trays once served
0:35:17	Lucy thinks Charlotte is waking up to the major problems in the city
0:36:47	Mobile market concept and location of markets
0:37:18	Network of gardens in food deserts
0:38:09	Collaboration with Loaves and Fishes for clients in Renaissance West
0:38:32	Lucy explains that Friendship Trays would deliver pantry items from Loaves and Fishes Pantry
0:39:19	Satellite distribution model
0:39:49	Begins to wrap up interview
0:40:07	Lucy ends by talking about a moral responsibility to provide people with their basic needs
0:42:03	Responsibility as human beings to take care of each other
0:42:30	Talks about members on staff
0:42:44	Conclusion of Interview/Thanks

[tabby title='Transcript']

[00:00:07]

>> Lucy Bush Carter: Years ago, I've had a-

>> Rachel McManimen: Okay, so today is Wednesday, March the 6th, 2019 at 10:41 AM. My name is Rachel McManimen, and I'm interviewing Lucy Bush Carter, who is the Executive Director of Friendship Trays. Friendship Trays is a non-profit organization whose mission is to deliver nutritious meals to elderly or infirm individuals in the Charlotte community who are unable to obtain or prepare their own meals.

[00:00:34]

While also providing human connection to the isolated and lonely, and peace of mind to their families. Friendship Trays is the only non-governmental Charlotte-based organization creating and delivering healthy meals to elderly and infirm community members in your homes. We are currently interviewing at the Distribution Street Kitchen located in South End Charlotte.

[00:00:52]

In today's interview we will be discussing the network of Friendship Trays. Primary themes of our interview will include Friendship Trays, community gardens, the relationship with Friendship Gardens, and then food distribution in the Charlotte area. [LAUGH] Mouthful. So I know in our tour you gave us a little background story, but I was wondering if you could explain a little bit more about the history of Friendship Trays.

[00:01:16]

I mean, you said it got started in 1976, so it's been a long history of non-profits in this area.

>> Lucy Bush Carter: So in the mid-70s there were a number of well established non-profits that were created at the same time, within a year or two of each other, by strong women in this community.

[00:01:38]

Crisis Assistance Ministry was created, Friendship Trays was created, Community Food Rescue was created, and Loaves and Fishes, all within a year or two of each other. Responding to a community need. So Friendship Trays started in the Elizabeth neighborhood. It was an offshoot of a weekly luncheon that the Elizabeth Service committee, or I don't know if that's exactly the right name.

[00:02:13]

But there was a consortium of churches comprised of St Martins Episcopal, St John's Baptist,

>> Lucy Bush Carter: Hawthorne Lane United Methodist, and Caldwell Presbyterian, that sponsored weekly luncheons that took place at St. Martin's for elderly in the neighborhood. Cuz at that time, Elizabeth was a neighborhood filled with a lot of older people.

[00:02:41]

Some of the people became infirmed and unable to get to the luncheons. So they did a survey in the neighborhood and determined that they would like to receive meals in their home. So the original model was to purchase meals from the hospital, which was in the neighborhood. Both Presbyterian and Mercy Hospital are in the Elizabeth neighborhood, and they began purchasing diet-specific meals from the hospitals and delivering them.

[00:03:09]

So I believe they started with five individuals out of the basement of Caldwell Presbyterian and grew from there. So we stayed in St. Martin's. The offices were established at St. Martin's, they delivered originally from Caldwell but the whole operation was centered at St. Martin's pretty quickly. And continued the practice of purchasing that specific meals from hospitals and nursing homes as we expanded beyond Elizabeth.

[00:03:42]

But then in 1989, we made the decision to up fit the kitchen at St. Martin's so that we could prepare our own meals. We did a capital campaign, and raised that money, and partnered with St. Martin's to utilize their kitchen for the delivery of meals. So we did that until we maxed out.

[00:04:07]

We used the kitchen at Saint Martin's until we maxed out at 400 meals. And at that time, Bruce Parker was on the board and knew that we were looking for space to create a kitchen, and said I have a warehouse space in this area of Charlotte that is in a pretty rough area.

[00:04:26]

And the board struggled with whether it was safe for volunteers to come here. But now fast forward to 2019 and we are in the midst of one of the hottest developing areas in the South East. It's really amazing what has changed and what has happened in this area over the years.

[00:04:51]

So we laugh about the board being worried about searching for volunteers because we're kind of in the lively, active, all the time part of Charlotte where young people are gathering, and riding scooters and [INAUDIBLE].

>> Rachel McManimen: [LAUGH] So how did the collaboration between Friendship Garden and Friendship Trays begin?

[00:05:18]

>> Lucy Bush Carter: Well, another staff person and I went to Atlanta to a conference, and at the conference we became aware of a program in either rural Kentucky or Tennessee. I don't remember which, but basically they were utilizing a garden to provide fresh produce for people that lived in poverty that came to these centers for services.

[00:05:48]

And they would be able to give them fresh vegetables to take home. And the other employee looked at me and said, we could do that. So we came home, she was already an avid backyard gardener. We came home and we told Bruce we would like to have a garden, and he said you can put it here.

[00:06:09]

So behind the building next door that he at that time was leasing was just a vacant area that was not being used for anything. And we partnered with Slow Food Charlotte, who had a lot of passionate people about local food and a lot of gardeners, and we created a demonstration garden down there.

[00:06:38]

We made raised beds out of pallets. And we grew an amazing amount of tomatoes, and okra, and squash, and eggplant, and peppers, and all sorts of things in that little demonstration garden for a number of years. We wanted to expand on that concept, so we applied for funding from both Wells Fargo and the Women's Impact Fund, and got funding to expand the program to include an urban farm.

[00:07:17]

So we established an urban farm and and we called it Friendship Gardens.

>> Lucy Bush Carter: We toyed with whether it would be gardens, farm, what would be the name, but we just kind of settled on Friendship Gardens. And it is not a separate program, it's not a separate 501C3, it is an integral arm of Friendship Trays.

[00:07:44]

And part of their purpose in addition to teaching healthy growing practices is to provide food to come into the meals here. So that we can elevate the quality of the food and and use as much local as we can that's attainable and affordable. We serve an at-risk population of people, so we have to serve them good quality food.

[00:08:12]

So most of our food that we utilize and the products we utilize are purchased from a wholesaler. But we infuse the meals as we can with local produce that comes in through this network of gardens and from the urban farm that is now at Garinger High School. The first farm we had was at a prison.

[00:08:33]

>> Lucy Bush Carter: The warden actually approached us and said, we really don't need a baseball field, but it'd be great to have a garden. So we used some of the funding from one of the sources that we had established. We had a staff person, a part-time staff person that oversaw it all.

[00:08:52]

But we plowed the field and created a little urban farm there at the prison. And several of the prisoners, as their work portion of their confinement, worked in the garden with Henry, who was the program director. And so when his family came to visit on the weekends, he would give them fresh produce that he had grown.

[00:09:20]

Cuz in addition to what they grew for us, they could have their own plots that they could grow some of what they wanted to. We also partnered with Jail North to start seeds in their greenhouse. And so the inmates there would start seeds, deliver them here, and then people in the garden network could come here and pick up the seedlings to plant in their gardens.

[00:09:47]

We started with a handful of gardens, and now there are over 100 that are in the network. Not all those bring things here, but a lot of them do. And it's just been a remarkable partnership and way for people to get involved in something that they're passionate about.

[00:10:07]

It brings a different volunteer kind of profile to us. The garden part versus the meal delivery part and the prep part. But it's all tied together, and we like to, as we frequently talk about, we want more people to have access to good healthy food. And that's an initiative that crosses programmatically among the non-profits in Charlotte that deal with hunger and feeding people, is make access to healthy food more readily available.

[00:10:49]

So that's kind of the common ground that both Friendship Trays and Friendship Gardens gets its sort of focus around.

>> Lucy Bush Carter: And I really am pretty sure that our food system is quite in need of evaluation and reorganization. And we wanna do the part that we can do, because we're serving people who are homebound, they have chronic illness, they may be recovering from surgery, they may have cancer, they may have other diseases that good nutrition and healthy eating can make a tremendous difference.

[00:11:42]

And we want to be that vehicle that brings that opportunity to eat in a healthy way to them, so.

>> Rachel McManimen: Right, and now, are you guys partnered with any other organizations that do that as well?

>> Lucy Bush Carter: Well, we've partnered, there's an organization that you may have run across called The Bulb.

[00:12:01]

>> Rachel McManimen: Yeah, we saw that just when we were researching Friendship Gardens, it had Friendship Trays and The Bulbs.

>> Lucy Bush Carter: Right, so Alisha Pruett is the young lady behind The Bulb, and her goal is to develop out a network of mobile units from mobile farmers markets.

>> Rachel McManimen: That's cool.

[00:12:28]

>> Lucy Bush Carter: So she actually is currently doing the mobile market for us at the transit center. We try to get as much donated food to her from the garden and from other sources, to help her have the things to offer. But she does that market, she does the Rosa Parks market that's out on the Beatties Ford Corridor for us.

[00:12:58]

And then she does some others that I don't know where they are, but those are the two that we have the agreements for the markets with. Another thing in the development of Friendship Gardens was that in 2010 the Democratic National Convention was here. And the model that they chose for the convention was that it was not gonna be something that just came and happened and was gone.

[00:13:30]

That they wanted some legacy programming to be attached with that. So we got funding, the local committee helped us get funding from Humana to do the mobile market and to partner with some build-outs of gardens. So we did that, and that's what gave us the seed money to start the mobile market at the transit center.

[00:14:01]

And we have just maintained that over the years. So from our perspective the legacy has continued, cuz we still have that mobile market.

>> Rachel McManimen: For sure. Now, I wanna go back to ask a specific question about Friendship Gardens, because you said, here in the distribution kitchen it's largely driven by volunteers and also out in the field delivering meals.

[00:14:21]

Is the Friendship Garden also primarily volunteers who work the Friendship Garden? I know you mentioned the program director, but outside of him, is that something that volunteers you rely very heavily on?

>> Lucy Bush Carter: We do utilize volunteers during the growing season. It's at Garinger. Depending on how the horticulture program is going and run, some of the students get involved with our plot at Garinger.

[00:14:51]

There is a farm manager, a part-time farm manager, and he does the planning, and maintains the crops, and organizes the volunteers. So again, like Wells Fargo, we'll send a crew here, Wells Fargo sends a crew there. People that have a passion about gardening like to volunteer there, so it does rely heavily on volunteers.

[00:15:18]

>> Rachel McManimen: Right, and what types of produce do you receive from the Friendship Garden?

>> Lucy Bush Carter: From the farm at Garinger?

>> Rachel McManimen: Yes, yes.

>> Lucy Bush Carter: We get sweet potatoes. We get butternut squash. A lot of herbs, garlic.

>> Lucy Bush Carter: I believe they grew some onions last year. They try to come and talk to the kitchen staff, and ask them what is most helpful.

[00:15:48]

And they also try to plant things that have a long shelf life, like the sweet potatoes and the butternut squash. They don't do tomatoes anymore. They did. There was a really rough year with tomatoes, there were a lot of issues, everybody had issues with tomatoes. And-

>> Rachel McManimen: Yeah.

[00:16:07]

>> Lucy Bush Carter: And we just thought we'll just stick with some of the things that just have a longer shelf life, cuz that works better for us. I mean, they'll bring us sweet potatoes and we have sweet potatoes curing, we have a warehouse across the street and we have sweet potatoes curing over there for months.

[00:16:26]

>> Rachel McManimen: Wow, and how much produce you receive from the garden at Geringer and do you receive it all year long or is it kind of depending on the harvest and what time of year that you receive it?

>> Lucy Bush Carter: We're really fortunate in Charlotte that the growing season is very long.

[00:16:43]

So this is about the only time there's really not anything coming in from over there. We brought in about 11,000 pounds in 2018, so-

>> Rachel McManimen: It's a lot of produce. [LAUGH]

>> Lucy Bush Carter: That's a lot of produce. And like I said, we have this salad dressing pilot project going on.

[00:17:10]

And they grew a lot of oregano, parsley,

>> Lucy Bush Carter: I believe it was just oregano and parsley. Maybe thyme, I'm not sure, and garlic.

>> Rachel McManimen: Garlic.

>> Lucy Bush Carter: And the processing of all of that was very labor intensive. It was fortunate that we did have a good, strong crew of volunteers in and out of here in the summer to help do that.

[00:17:38]

We partnered with some faith organizations that bring mission groups here in the summer time. There's a program called Cross Mission that Maris Park Presbyterian manages. And volunteers will come from more rural areas throughout the South to Charlotte, stay at Maris Park, and then they send them out to the community to do volunteer work.

[00:18:04]

And they have volunteers here for a portion of the summer, three days a week. And so that was a great resource for processing those herbs that needed to be grown and processed for the salad dressing.

>> Rachel McManimen: And is that pilot program still continuing or?

>> Lucy Bush Carter: It's over.

>> Rachel McManimen: It's over.

[00:18:27]

Did it not work out how you thought it would?

>> Lucy Bush Carter: It was a great pilot, we learned a lot, it was delicious salad dressing, and they taste tested it with children in schools. The idea was that a school would sell the dressing instead of selling wrapping paper. That they would be involved with the growing of the herbs and the production of the salad dressing, and then that would be the PTA sales project.

[00:19:08]

That takes a lot of organizing, and marketing, and storytelling, and developing, and we just aren't equipped, staff-wise, as you can see. You see what our staff does, and the front office staff is making sure we have enough volunteers to deliver the meals, and making that efficient for the volunteers so that they'll come back again.

[00:19:38]

Cuz we tell people you can do this on your lunch hour. And it's a great way to volunteer for busy people that don't really have a whole lot of time, they can usually carve out a lunch hour once a month to deliver meals. And we have volunteers that come once a week, we have volunteers that come once a month, twice a month, that come as needed, we call them if we need substitutes, and they can say yes and they can say no.

[00:20:04]

But our volunteer coordinators are totally focused on making that a meaningful, efficient experience for the volunteer. Cuz we want them to come here, get the meals, and then spend their time interacting with the people they're delivering the meals to. Because they are isolated and they don't see people, and as you said in your opening remarks, we provide peace of mind for families.

[00:20:31]

Because they know that they can work more focused at their job because someone is going to check on their grandmother, or their aunt, or their mum at lunch time. And we're gonna let them know if they find something that's wrong. And we have found people that have fallen, we've found a woman who had fallen at 3 or 4 o'clock in the morning on the way to the bathroom and laid on the floor till the volunteer came.

[00:20:55]

She knew somebody was coming but she had to wait until they got there. And another story that I was involved in was of a longtime volunteer, one of the original volunteers back from St Martin's in the mid 70s still was volunteering. This was probably maybe 15 years ago now, but she went to deliver her route and she called and she said I'm pretty sure Mr. Jones is on the dining room floor.

[00:21:27]

I'm talking to him but he can't get to the door, and I think he's fallen off, I think he's on the dining room floor now. So we'll call 911, and if you wait until they get there and I can get there, we'll go from there. So I pulled his emergency contact, his emergency contact was his niece, and she lived in Morrisville.

[00:21:50]

And the volunteer stayed there, when I got there, the firemen were there, the medics were there, and the police were there. They had broken in the house, and he was on the dining room floor, and he was arguing with them because he wanted to wait until his niece got there before they took him anywhere.

[00:22:06]

And they said, Mr Smith, we're pretty sure you have broken your hip. And he said well, I need a weight for my niece. Well, I walked in, and I looked down at him, and I said, I'm Lucy, I'm from Friendship Grace. Now, he didn't know me. I said I will call your niece and talk to her, and make sure she knows where you are.

[00:22:29]

And let's let these nice gentlemen go ahead and take you to the hospital, and he said, okay. So off they went, he had broken his hip. He was 98, living at home alone. He was 98, he'd broken his hip, had his hip repaired. Another volunteer that delivered to him regularly baked him a birthday cake cuz he had his birthday while he was in the hospital, and she took him a birthday cake.

[00:22:56]

He recuperated, went to rehab, came back home, and we continued to serve him for another year or so before he wasn't able to stay at home alone, but that's the kind of thing that happens. And the volunteers get very connected to the people that they're serving.

>> Rachel McManimen: And we saw your big service map outside your office, with multiple different routes.

[00:23:20]

Now your regular volunteers, do they stay? Do they drive the same routes?

>> Lucy Bush Carter: Most of them do.

>> Rachel McManimen: They do.

>> Lucy Bush Carter: Now, the substitutes go wherever we need for them to go, but there are a lot of people who have their own route. When I started as a volunteer when my son was two I was looking for a volunteer activity I could do with him.

[00:23:39]

And we had a route in Dilworth, and we delivered to the same people every week. And we had an older gentleman who was 99, and he didn't have any family, and he looked so forward to my two year old and I coming to visit, and we got to be really good friends with him.

[00:24:06]

And on Monday For years we delivered on Fridays, but we switched, then delivered on Mondays. And I would go on Monday and he wouldn't come to the door and I twice had to have the police come and break in. What happened to him was he stayed in bed all weekend, we didn't deliver on Saturdays and Sundays.

[00:24:27]

And he didn't get out of bed, and by Monday he was dehydrated and confused and it was our call and attention to it that kept him alive.

>> Rachel McManimen: Right.

>> Lucy Bush Carter: Really and truly. And we helped with that, that was one of the stories that they used to establish a weekend meal program that Presbyterian Hospital did.

[00:24:54]

And when volunteers went on Saturdays and Sundays, he was fine on Mondays, but that happened two Mondays that we had to take him to the hospital because he was not in good shape because he was so dehydrated.

>> Rachel McManimen: That's so sad. That just shows the need for, I mean that establishes we do need someone on the weekends, or some type of capacity because people do need that both interaction and the nutrients from the food.

[00:25:20]

Right.

>> Lucy Bush Carter: Sometimes I think the nutrients from the brief interaction are more important than the food. I know they are. I've seen it and you hear it when people call. There's one man that calls every day and the reason he calls is to talk to somebody.

>> Rachel McManimen: So when the volunteers go and they drop off the meals, do they typically go in and sit and chat, or what are those interactions?

[00:25:48]

You were a volunteer, so can you tell me a little bit about your experiences dropping off meals and chatting with the clients?

>> Lucy Bush Carter: Well, there are as many different examples as there are people.

>> Rachel McManimen: [LAUGH]

>> Lucy Bush Carter: There was one woman on my route who we would pull her meal out and make her last because she was going to talk for a long time And this is when we were doing hot meals.

[00:26:17]

That two-year old is 35.

>> Rachel McManimen: [LAUGH]

>> Lucy Bush Carter: But we would have to restructure the route so that Mrs. Ballard was last so we could visit with her because she would not let you leave until she was done. Yeah, she was bed ridden and she was lonely and she wanted to talk and she was delightful.

[00:26:40]

It was fun to talk to her. And then you have other people that take the meal, say thank you or leave a cooler out, sometimes that's out of necessity. We served people that are on dialysis, and so frequently they will be at dialysis when we come to deliver.

[00:27:00]

But fortunately the meal was waiting for them when they come home, and they can have their lunch. But there are some people that wanna visit and there are some people that just wanna say thank you and take the meal. We had another woman who lived in a garage apartment that was very reclusive, but she was so fascinating, she had grown up in downtown Charlotte.

[00:27:29]

Near the Baptist church, near the first Baptist church which wasn't where it is now, I don't believe, I think it was closer to downtown. And she tells stories about when she was a child, walking to church and she was so fascination and so entertaining, which they eventually moved her to a nursing home.

[00:27:55]

And we visited her in the nursing home after she wasn't even on the program anymore. And the gentleman that we found on Monday, I actually took him to Aldersgate. And his caregiver, by this time he was 98 or 99 and his wife had died, they didn't have any children and this was his wife's best friend that was his caregiver, and she was kind of skeptical of me.

[00:28:26]

She didn't understand what, she thought there was something I wanted, which I just wanted him to be safe, but she got me, he didn't want to go anywhere. And she got me to take him. And she didn't tell him that he wasn't coming back home. And I did it because that's what she needed.

[00:28:51]

But he didn't live very long after that. He didn't want to be there, he wanted to be home.

>> Rachel McManimen: So I'm gonna switch gears a little bit and ask, what are some of the benefits, I think the relationships, definitely a large benefit. But also the challenges of working with community gardens or meal services like this.

[00:29:14]

Especially in the Charlotte area and it seems like, just the way the city is segregated and the common food deserts. And the clientele that you certainly, he said there's such a need in Charlotte. What are some of the challenges that you face in your experiences?

>> Lucy Bush Carter: Well, the primary challenge is money.

[00:29:35]

We spend between $400,000 and $500,000 a year with the food wholesaler. And that's on the food. The containers that we send them in, the price of those containers goes up every year astronomically. So everyday between $500 and $600 of what we spend on the meal in a day is for the containers.

[00:29:59]

They are 22 and 23 cents a piece. So you've got .50 cents in containers in every meal.

>> Rachel McManimen: Mm-hm.

>> Lucy Bush Carter: So the funding is challenging. And that's challenging for nonprofits, period, whether it's ones that serve food or whatever it is they're doing. Funding is challenging. As government becomes less and less interested in being involved and thinking care of people is their responsibility, they're reyling more and more on the faith community and on nonprofits.

[00:30:36]

And there is no way we can pick up the slack that, that leaves. There is no way, because every time some government funding happens, even if a different mindset comes in there and they want to focus on services, they don't ever restore what they took away. And then it's my belief that nonprofits have got to figure out, and whether it's friendship trays or trying to find the fundings for friendship gadrens.

[00:31:10]

We have to figure out revenue generating streams. Like the salad dressing, to bring in revenue that we're not putting our hands out and saying, just give me. What can I sell that is not mission creep.

>> Rachel McManimen: Mm-hm.

>> Lucy Bush Carter: So for instance, we lease the kitchen during down times for food trucks and small food purveyors.

[00:31:34]

And they pay us an hourly rate, and they pay us for shelving and dry storage. So that's one of the ways we try to generate revenue. And the daycares, serving the daycares. Although those are subsidized because they again are serving low income people, they still contribute to an income stream for us that helps tremendously.

[00:31:56]

And one of the realities for us is last year we did have the best fund raising year we ever had. And that's Friendship Tries and Friendship Garden combined, cuz we don't. They're restricted gifts that come to both. But when I say we raised over a million dollars in funding that's both of us together.

[00:32:20]

It was the best year we ever had, and we still were short and did not finish the year in the black. And that's not sustainable over time, so I believe that collaborations with other non-profits, and with corporations, with the business sector-

>> Rachel McManimen: Yeah.

>> Lucy Bush Carter: Are answers and solutions.

[00:32:51]

What can you do to help us, but what can we provide for you so it's not just one sided, that you're giving to us? We want it to be something that is mutually beneficial for your employees.

>> Rachel McManimen: And that's kind of the distribution and financial resources challenge on the left side-

[00:33:14]

>> Lucy Bush Carter: Yes.

>> Rachel McManimen: And not necessarily the food capacity?

>> Lucy Bush Carter: Right.

>> Rachel McManimen: A lot of food here-

>> Lucy Bush Carter: Right.

>> Rachel McManimen: Food is donated. And like the loaves of bread that you showed, tons of them.

>> Lucy Bush Carter: Right, more than we can use.

>> Rachel McManimen: Yeah, it's good thing you got that freeze then.

[00:33:27]

>> Lucy Bush Carter: [LAUGH] It is a distribution challenge. World wide it's a distribution challenge. There's enough food to feed people in the world and it's so dysfunctional that there are hungry people. And there are.

>> Rachel McManimen: Mm-hm.

>> Lucy Bush Carter: But it's not because there's not food to provide for them, it's that we don't have the distribution and will power and desire to do it.

[00:33:54]

>> Rachel McManimen: Do you think Charlotte has a unique distribution issue, as compared to the Atlanta operation that you saw or just-

>> Lucy Bush Carter: I think the segregated nature of how,

>> Lucy Bush Carter: The systems have operated for years with intentionality to keep income segregation at play. And all of the gentrification that is going on, and the redevelopment in neighborhoods that we once served older low-income people on fixed, living on social security and disability.

[00:34:48]

Those people are gone and have been replaced by either renovated or torn down and rebuilt houses for people with names. And then we have not done, we have not done a good, and we know that, we're 50th out of 15 in upward mobility capacity. And our system has kept us that way.

[00:35:14]

I think we're, our eyes are being open to that, whether we will respond is the next phase of Charlotte.

>> Rachel McManimen: Could you tell us a little bit more about the transient drop off system that you were explaining out there? Because I think that offers a unique perspective on how we're getting to food to people that can't walk to Publix, or Harris Teeter and things like that.

[00:35:37]

>> Lucy Bush Carter: Right.

>> Rachel McManimen: And kind of live in these outside areas of this readily available access to nutritious food.

>> Lucy Bush Carter: Right, well the food desert issue is because grocery stores don't go into low income neighborhoods because they can't survive. There's not much mark-up on food.

>> Rachel McManimen: Mm-hm.

>> Lucy Bush Carter: It's the other things that a grocery store sells that keep them going, the cosmetics, the, you know things-

[00:36:06]

>> Rachel McManimen: Toiletries.

>> Lucy Bush Carter: Toiletries. The other than food items that there's the mark-up on and the way they make their money, there's not much mark-up on the food. So, trying to level the playing field so that the people that even live in those areas, that don't have the grocery stores, there's been some efforts to try the effect of small mom and pop type markets that are in those areas.

[00:36:39]

I really don't know a lot about that, I just know there's been conversation. And part of the mobile market concept is if there is a Family Dollar that does sell a lot of highly processed foods I mean least they're selling food. But could you locate a mobile market near there to enable the people that can get there to also have access to fresh produce?

[00:37:06]

That would be a way to go about that.

>> Lucy Bush Carter: And the other thing is the network of gardens has a possibility to connect people with, here's this community garden in your neighborhood, you can have a plot, you can grow.

>> Rachel McManimen: Right.

>> Lucy Bush Carter: So there needs to be a coordinated effort among different non-profits and groups, a collaborative model to have those touch points work more logically and efficiently.

[00:37:51]

For instance, we are in conversation with Loaves & Fishes to,

>> Lucy Bush Carter: To create a system by which their clients who live in Renaissance West, which is out off of West Boulevard, can get pantry food items delivered to them. There's a pantry that is relatively close in distance to Renaissance West, but they can't walk there, there is a highway in between.

[00:38:32]

And it's not feasible for them to be able to walk there, let alone come home with a weeks worth, or however with the groceries. So what we're talking about is developing a system where the client, the Loaves & Fishes client can call or go online and place an order.

[00:38:55]

And then we would have one of our volunteers pick up the order from the pantry, and deliver it to the client because we're going into Renaissance West to deliver meals anyway. And so, we're working on that right now. We use the satellite distribution model, so that we're getting the meals for a neighborhood in Matthews closer for both the volunteer and the people to safely get that meal delivered to them.

[00:39:35]

But we need to work on more out of the box way and ideas to improve that system.

>> Rachel McManimen: Well, we're coming up on our time limit, and I know you are a very busy woman. [LAUGH] But I just wanna ask you if there's anything else that I didn't mention that you would like to talk about, or any stories you would like to tell us or anything in general?

[00:40:05]

>> Lucy Bush Carter: Just that I think we have a moral responsibility to provide people with their basic needs. We need to feed them, we need to make sure they've got a decent roof over their head, and have a means of sustaining themselves, whatever that is, a job. And I think Charlotte has a tendency of be sort of siloed in its approach to things.

[00:40:42]

And I know that our efforts with Friendship Gardens and with our partnership with Loaves & Fishes, and the Bulb, and the other things that we're all partner together with, we're trying to do more to solve more of the problems. And I think other non-profits have to think along those same lines we don't need any more non-profits.

[00:41:11]

We need the ones we have to figure out how they can combine energy and forces with others and meet the need and not come up with anymore, any new programming. Cuz, I've been around long enough that I have seen so many trends come and go. We'll start talking about a problem and I'm like yeah, 25 years ago we had this project that was supposed to solve that problem.

[00:41:49]

>> Lucy Bush Carter: We just need to figure all that out, and figure out how to take care of people that can't take care of themselves, it's our responsibility.

>> Rachel McManimen: Mm-hm.

>> Lucy Bush Carter: It's our responsibility as people to take care of each other, and I just think we need to work hard to figure that out.

[00:42:09]

And then Charlotte might one day be a world class city if we figure that out. We're not now, and we're fooling ourselves if we think we are cuz there's too many people that don't have what they need.

>> Rachel McManimen: Some great concluding thoughts.

>> Lucy Bush Carter: [LAUGH]

>> Rachel McManimen: It was a pleasure speaking with you.

[00:42:24]

Thank you so much for taking the time to give us a tour-

>> Lucy Bush Carter: Sure.

>> Rachel McManimen: And speaking with us.

>> Lucy Bush Carter: Glad to.

>> Rachel McManimen: Can I just ask two clarifying questions?

>> Lucy Bush Carter: Mm-hm.

>> Rachel McManimen: Friendship, how many members you have on staff.

>> Lucy Bush Carter: We have 10 full-time and about 11 part-time staff members

[tabby title='Captioned Audio'] [tabbyending]

In this interview, T. McLeod talks about his experiences in running his own organics business, McLeod Organics, and his transition from farmer to seller in north Mecklenburg county. Mr. McLeod begins by detailing how he originally got into farming, discussing his family’s past and mentioning his early organic gardening experiences with his family. He moves, later, into how he switched from farming into the organics business discussing how he saw a need in the market due to his own experiences and difficulties in organic farming. As the interview progress, the subject matter switches to the current difficulties in remaining an organic provider in the face of increasing expansion and regulations. Mr. McLeod also goes into an in-depth discussion on homegrown medicines and how he predicts and reacts to that market. The interview ends with a conversation about community involvement in his market as well as hopes and predictions on the future of organic growing in Mecklenburg and surrounding counties.

[tabby title='Tape Log']

Time	Subject
0:00:07	Introduction of interview and interviewer
0:01:17	The beginnings of McLeod Organics
0:02:39	Discussion of difficulties starting out in farming for McLeod
0:03:37	T. McLeod details his family’s farming past
0:06:01	Running McLeod Organics and current farm work
0:07:07	Growing for farmers markets before starting business
0:08:21	Forming relationships with other farmers.
0:09:24	Information about Bradrord Farm
0:11:57	How McLeod Organics started in the Bradford Store
0:14:07	Challenges in offering and maintaining organic product
0:19:52	Challenges of smaller farms and Bradford Farm of remaining certified organic.
0:22:54	The type of people who sell their product at the Bradford Store
0:25:13	Getting into the natural health product market
0:30:22	Process of getting soil to satisfactory level for organic growth
0:32:09	T. discusses other regulations for farming he experiences
0:34:09	Community outreach efforts and education
0:40:44	T talks about the experience he wants people to have at his store
0:44:15	Final question and concluding remarks

[tabby title='Transcript']

[0:00:08]

>> Bradley Holt: Good afternoon, my name is Bradley Holt of UNC Charlotte, working on the Queen’s Garden oral histories of the Piedmont food shed. Today is March 12th and I am sitting down today with T McLeod at his general store here in North Mecklenburg County. So I'll just let you introduce yourself real quick.

[0:00:29]

>> T. McLeod: My name is T McLeod, owner and operator of McLeod Organics at the Bradford Store located on Highway 73, in, go with Mecklenburg Country, actual address is Huntersville, North Carolina.

>> T. McLeod: I've owned this business for eight years and been a part of North Mecklenburg County all my life.

[0:00:52]

I grew up in the area and product Charlotte-Mecklenburg School System. North Mecklenburg High School was where I graduated. For Huntersville Elementary and Alexander Junior High School at that point in time.

>> Bradley Holt: All right, so would you mind telling me the story behind the McLeod Organics. How did you get your start here?

[0:01:17]

>> T. McLeod: I got my start because I had been an organic farmer and grower for a number of years and I always had trouble finding the things that I needed to use in my own farming endeavors. So I thought if I was having problems probably everybody else was having problems.

[0:01:37]

So I decided to start a business specializing in organic supplies for gardening, landscaping. Also included organic live stock grains for chickens and goats and rabbits and all when I started the business. I had a vision, knowing a little bit about human health, that the business would eventually transcend into human health and personal care products.

[0:02:03]

And then, also, completing the process two years ago, I started the operations of what was then known as The Bradford Store. And specializing in organic foodstuffs that are gown here on the farm or in relationships that I have with other local farmers in this area.

>> Bradley Holt: Okay, so your interest in organic work came about because you had difficulty previously when you were working [LAUGH].

[0:02:37]

>> T. McLeod: That's correct, yes.

>> Bradley Holt: Okay, what sort of difficulties did you run into before you started here?

>> T. McLeod: Looking for good quality organic fertilizers, soils amendments that I was looking to use as far as micro nutrients and also biological cool products as far as the abundance of microbial life and soils.

[0:03:09]

>> Bradley Holt: Have other farmers around the area kind of gone through similar issues if they've been focused in organics that you know of?

>> T. McLeod: They have and continue to have, and I always try to be a resource for them as far as providing products that they can use or being able to provide knowledge of where they could find things that perhaps I don't carry.

[0:03:34]

>> Bradley Holt: Okay, now, was farming something that run through your family? Or was it just something when you were younger you just kinda have an interest in doing it?

>> T. McLeod: Yep, it did run through my family. My father grew up on a family farm in Eastern North Carolina in the town of Broadway North Carolina, which is about eight miles east of Sanford.

[tabby title='Captioned Audio'] [tabbyending]

Cindy McKenzie is a member of the Avondale Presbyterian Church and one of the founders of the Avondale Community Giving Garden. She began working on a community garden at Avondale through a connection from Myers Park Baptist Church, who introduced her to Common Grounds Farmstand. She estimates that this took place about ten years ago, roughly 2009. In this interview, Cindy talks about foundation of the Avondale Community Giving Garden through a partnership with Common Grounds, the types of produce grown in the garden, and the different challenges and success that the garden has experienced over the years. Cindy provides an thoughtful perspective on childhood memories, community gardening, and distributing food to the greater Charlotte community. 

Robert Suydam is a member of the Avondale Presbyterian Church and became involved in the garden roughly five years ago (around 2014). He introduced new ideas to the reinvent the Avondale Community Giving Garden by partnering with Friendship Trays. The Avondale Community Garden / Giving Garden produces over 500 pounds of fresh produce which is donated to Friendship Trays, a nonprofit organization located in South Charlotte. Friendship Trays creates and delivers healthy meals to elderly and infirm community member in their homes. In this interview, Robert talks about the redirection of the community garden through the partnership with Friendship Trays, outreaching the garden to community members who want to rent beds, and the self-sustainment of the Avondale Garden through the funds raised by plot rentals. He provides an interesting perspective on the challenges of volunteer sustainment, experimental produce, and community gardening in the Charlotte community.

[tabby title='Tape Log']

Time	Subject
0:00:07	Interview Begins
0:39:07	History of the Avondale Community Giving Garden
1:00:07	Collaboration between Common Grounds and Avondale Presbyterian
2:04:07	Cindy talks about the community garden growing tomatoes for the Common Ground farmstand ten years ago
4:19:07	Robert pitches the idea of Avondale partnering with Friendship Gardens to keep up with the changing times
5:30:07	Church garden shifts to community garden. Begin renting garden beds to community members three years ago.
7:00:07	Garden bed renters and the dynamic they add to the community garden
7:34:07	Describes size and layout of the garden
8:08:07	Types of seasonal produce grown in the garden
10:25:07	Involving children/young adults in the community garden
11:50:07	Volunteer base and types of volunteers that work in the garden
13:10:07	Challenges of volutneer labor force
15:23:07	Dealing with rabbits, deer, and birds in the garden
15:54:07	Water in the garden and the water system used (rainbarrels and totes)
18:25:07	Composting in the garden
20:16:07	Pollination beds and pollination approach in the garden
21:23:07	Communities favorite types of produce from the garden including tomatores, turnips, and kale
22:50:07	Compost in the garden
23:21:07	Produce that did not take well in the garden particularly beets
24:40:07	Mixing seedlings and seeds in the garden
25:50:07	Food distribution and harvesting season
27:40:07	Challenges of Charlotte's community gardens
31:12:07	Favorite parts of working in a community garden
33:12:07	Community gardening within Charlotte Mecklenburg schools
34:30:07	Knowledgable gardeners and new garderners
36:33:07	Youtube as a teaching tool for new garderners
37:40:07	Disease and insect infestation in the garden
38:29:07	Future of community gardens in Charlotte
40:19:07	Partnerships with other gardens
42:20:07	Changing food environment in Charlotte and evolvement of gardens
44:03:07	Final thoughts on the community garden
50:15:07	Reflecting on past memories of grandparents and gardening
52:51:07	Interview Ends

[tabby title='Transcript']

[00:00:07]

>> Savannah Brown: Hello, my name is Savannah Brown, and today I'm interviewing Cindy McKenzie and Robert Sudam. The date is Monday, March 25, 2019, at 6:30 PM. We're interviewing in Charlotte, North Carolina. Today, we'll be discussing the Avondale Community Garden, and Cindy and Robert's involvement at the garden. The garden is located on the Avondale Presbyterian campus, correct?

[00:00:30]

>> Cindy McKenzie: Yes.

>> Savannah Brown: And they donate fresh produce to Friendship Trays, a non-profit organization that delivers meals to the elderly and infirm communities located throughout Mecklenberg County. Okay, so can you just tell me a little bit about the history of the garden, and how it got started?

>> Cindy McKenzie: Sure.

[00:00:46]

Do you want me to start?

>> Robert Sudam: Yes, please.

>> Cindy McKenzie: Okay. We basically were approached by a person, and I've forgotten her name, from Myers Park Presbyterian Church, who was getting involved with something called the Common Grounds Farm Stand. It was a sort of a cooperative, put together by a group of women at Myers Park, and they call themselves the Mustard Seeds.

[00:01:19]

And they were going to sell fresh produce and baked goods, prepared foods, and some additional items. And the profits were going to be used to support a person to work with homeless neighbors at Urban Ministry Center. So that's a mouthful. [LAUGH] The person they hoped to fund would be a part-time person that had some legal background, so that they could counsel homeless neighbors as to how to get their benefits, how to navigate the systems in Charlotte.

[00:02:01]

And so they sort of cooked this idea up. I wish I could remember the year, it's probably been ten years ago.

>> Robert Sudam: It was before my time, yeah.

>> Cindy McKenzie: Yeah, about ten years ago, let's say. So anyway, they approached Avondale and asked if we would start from scratch a garden to grow tomatoes, for their farm stand.

[00:02:26]

And so that's kind of how we got started, with maybe eight beds? I really can't remember. I'm gonna say about eight beds. And we really had no experience, and we just sort of had a work day, built a bunch of garden beds, planted tomatoes, and season after season, some seasons are great, some not so great, and we donated the produce to that farm stand.

[00:02:56]

They were probably in operation about five years. I don’t know if you ever visited.

>> Robert Sudam: No.

>> Cindy McKenzie: Okay. Probably about five years, they were very successful in raising money to fund this position at Urban Ministry Center. As the years sort of went on, the clientele that shopped at the farm stand, they were looking more for prepared goods.

[00:03:23]

At least still carried some produce, but I think their profit margins were just a lot higher on the prepared goods. And so our focus sort of began to change a little bit as their focus changed. And eventually, because they were an entirely volunteer-based organization, it was quite labor-intensive.

[00:03:48]

Setup and take-down twice a week, usually May to September. They sort of saw it through, raised a ton of money, had a lot of fun, and then just said, we're going to move on. So we needed to move on. [LAUGH] And that's kind of when I met you.

[00:04:08]

>> Robert Sudam: Yeah, that's when I came into the church.

>> Cindy McKenzie: And I was probably struggling a little bit at that time, you know, what are we gonna do with our garden? We still wanted to grow produce, and Robert had an idea.

>> Robert Sudam: Yeah, so I'd worked with Friendship Gardens previously, with another church.

[00:04:28]

And so I pitched that we should get involved with that group, that it's a wonderful organization. And so we directed, redirected our resources in that direction. And they're just great partners to have. They provide vegetables, plants, to us to grow, and then they use everything you can produce and bring to them.

[00:04:50]

You can trust that it's going to used to benefit folks in need. So that was our redirection.

>> Cindy McKenzie: Yeah.

>> Robert Sudam: And then during that, so when Cindy was talking about the group, is the garden was completely run by church members. And then when we started redirecting five years ago, I guess, to Friendship Garden's trays, then it still was just all church volunteers.

[00:05:19]

And it just, there's a turning point where volunteers start to burn out. And we thought, maybe we could do something bigger with this plot of land down here. And Cindy came up with the idea that we should outreach to the community, and make it a true community garden, instead of just church members, hook it up to the entire community.

[00:05:40]

So, three years ago-

>> Cindy McKenzie: Yeah, this is our third spring.

>> Robert Sudam: Yeah, third spring, we solicited, or we just put out feelers, that we have beds available. Obviously, very low cost. So it's also a self-funding garden, and at the same time still benefits Friendship Trays. So what we did at that point in time is, we had individuals own their bed and their produce.

[00:06:06]

But we have six beds that are completely dedicated to Friendship Trays.

>> Savannah Brown: Okay.

>> Robert Sudam: Yeah, so it's a way to bring fresh blood in, and still maintain that element to giving food to folks in need.

>> Savannah Brown: And so, for the people that rent the beds, they bring in their own produce?

[00:06:27]

Their own produce plants?

>> Cindy McKenzie: Yes.

>> Robert Sudam: Yeah, they do.

>> Cindy McKenzie: Yeah, yeah.

>> Robert Sudam: And seeds. And to the extent that they'll help with Friendship Trays and Friendship Gardens, they can utilize those plants. But again, that's to help Friendship Trays.

>> Savannah Brown: And do they. I was like, I had something going.

[00:06:47]

[LAUGH] But I was going to say, the produce that they produce, so they don't have to donate it to Friendship Trays, their own bed? They can take it home, or they can donate it.

>> Robert Sudam: Yeah. I'd say the majority of the vegetables produced by folks, outside members if you will, well, they're not outside.

[00:07:05]

But those folks, probably majority they grow for themselves, and it's been great, because we've had a diverse group. We've had folks that have come in and never gardened before, but always thought it'd be fun, and wanted to be a part of the community. And then we've had other folks come in that knew exactly what they were doing, and have taught us things along the way.

[00:07:24]

So that's been a whole new dynamic that has really added to the community garden.

>> Savannah Brown: That's really fun.

>> Cindy McKenzie: It has been.

>> Savannah Brown: Can you tell me a little bit about what the garden looks like? Just, how big are the plot, or the bed sizes, or?

>> Cindy McKenzie: Sure.

[00:07:39]

Currently, we have 17 beds, and most are about 4' wide with about would you say 3' of growing.

>> Robert Sudam: Well, is it-

>> Cindy McKenzie: Or is it 3' by 12'? It's either 4' by 12' or 3' by 12'.

>> Robert Sudam: Like 4' by 12'.

>> Cindy McKenzie: I think it's 4' by 12'.

[00:07:58]

>> Robert Sudam: Yeah.

>> Cindy McKenzie: Yeah.

>> Savannah Brown: That's a lot of beds. That's a lot more than I thought.

>> Cindy McKenzie: Yeah, it's 17, each being about 4' by 12', yeah.

>> Savannah Brown: Some are a little smaller, but the majority are about that size. Yeah, and what types of produce do you grow?

[00:08:12]

>> Cindy McKenzie: Wow, we've grown some creative stuff.

>> Savannah Brown: [LAUGH]

>> Robert Sudam: Everything, it's, we try to keep it seasonal, so we try to make sure that we help folks. That can plant early radishes and turnips, and then go to beans, and tomatoes and squash, and just kinda follow the seasons.

[00:08:31]

With the beds that are for Friendship Trays, our goal is maximum production. So we plant these specifically to try to produce the most, and with asking that group what they would like. Most of the time, they're just glad to have anything, so they say plant whatever you want.

[00:08:50]

But we've also switched some to herbs, because this past year part of their fundraising was salad dressings.

>> Savannah Brown: Lucy was telling me about that interview.

>> Robert Sudam: Yeah, so we grew herbs for them that went into salad dressing, and so it really varies

>> Cindy McKenzie: Because we've done potatoes, I'd never grown potatoes.

[00:09:10]

So he started the potato bed, okra, and all kinds of squash, onions, peas, yeah.

>> Robert Sudam: You name it.

>> Cindy McKenzie: Kohlrabi.

>> Robert Sudam: Yeah, kohlrabi is a good one.

>> Cindy McKenzie: It tastes weird I think, but it's interesting.

>> Savannah Brown: [LAUGH]

>> Robert Sudam: It has similar ties to water chestnut.

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah?

>> Robert Sudam: It's a really odd looking-

[00:09:37]

>> Cindy McKenzie: Like a bulbous kinda thing [LAUGH]

>> Robert Sudam: Yeah, but it's a lot of fun, so I mean we can get kids, and again I said to you earlier. One of my passions is getting kids in the garden and trying to spark that interest. Which is not the easiest thing in the world to do.

[00:09:54]

So if you can bring in unique produce that they've never seen before or bring in a new flavor, tha's what I enjoy doing. So the kohlrabi is something that looks like it's come off of Mars, it's really a bizarre looking vegetable, so it sparks an interest. And grow things like even stevia, we grew stevia, which is an artificial sweetener.

[00:10:19]

And so when kids came in, we call it the candy plant, give them a leaf. And it's so sweet, they're grabbed, immediately you have their attention.

>> Savannah Brown: Do you have a lot of kids in the garden?

>> Cindy McKenzie: That has evolved as well, when we were primarily a church-based, growing for Friendship Trays.

[00:10:38]

We were always looking for people to partner with, and we partnered with Sedgefield Middle School. With their Montessori partner for a while, and the kids would come over and help us harvest or plant.

>> Robert Sudam: Yeah.

>> Cindy McKenzie: And that's tough, cuz it's during the work day, so has to be people that can do that.

[00:11:00]

That have that availability, but that was really, really fun days, planting or harvesting or sometimes tasting, trying out things. The other things that they did they were service-oriented, the Montessori program. And so they would also come on campus and help us clean out beds, or clean out the tool box, or things like that.

[00:11:22]

>> Savannah Brown: [LAUGH]

>> Cindy McKenzie: So that probably lasted three years, I'd say, the Montessori program actually moved to a different location. Yeah, but that was a lot of fun.

>> Robert Sudam: And even our youth center-

>> Cindy McKenzie: Yeah, our youth group has done some things in the past.

>> Robert Sudam: Yeah, it's fun to get them in.

[00:11:39]

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, that's really neat, I was gonna ask you about volunteers. Because I didn't know what it was, I was gonna say, do you feel that you already have a built-in network of volunteers with the church? Or do you feel like it kinda is more outside?

>> Robert Sudam: [CROSSTALK]

[00:11:56]

>> Cindy McKenzie: It does, it's a good way to put it.

>> Robert Sudam: It can be challenging, you have to find those people who have the same passion, that grow a garden. Those are the kind that stick, but still you can find like we have two people soon they [INAUDIBLE] their beds this year.

[00:12:16]

That are newer gardeners, that are just as passionate as somebody who's been doing it since they were young.

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah.

>> Cindy McKenzie: Yeah, well, and Mark, one gentleman has children-

>> Robert Sudam: Good point.

>> Cindy McKenzie: And there's a children's center, a daycare center, a childcare center on campus. And one parent loves to garden, and he gardens with his sons, because they can just walk right over.

[00:12:46]

Either when he's dropping off, in the morning, or picking up in the afternoon and tend their plot. And his plot is usually the best-looking one, or sometimes.

>> Robert Sudam: It is, and it's always harvested, they're definitely using everything they can grow.

>> Cindy McKenzie: They are, yeah, you can tell.

>> Robert Sudam: Yeah, that's a good one.

[00:13:06]

>> Savannah Brown: Do you have a pretty steady network of volunteers? I've kinda noticed with community gardens I feel that can be where they struggle sometimes. Is there a volunteer base to keep it running?

>> Cindy McKenzie: That's definitely where we struggle the most, and that's really what prompted the switch to a community garden in a sense.

[00:13:26]

Was, it's hard work sometimes, and it's really tough to get people, I guess. To get people involved on a consistent basis for a long time, let's say, it's tough. There are a lot of choices in charge, all the things to do, and ways to your spend your time with your family.

[00:13:48]

And so yeah, that's probably where we struggle the most. And the community garden has simplified it.

>> Robert Sudam: Significantly, simplified it.

>> Cindy McKenzie: For me.

>> Savannah Brown: What I think of one of my previous interviews,she was talking about holidays and a lot of us over the summer. When people have other commitments, or choose to do other things, and so that can be difficult as well.

[00:14:15]

Just keeping people involved in this kinda like prime growing season, especially if they're students, or kids, or other things are going on. And so people keep their own garden beds, the renters, volunteers don't help with their beds like.

>> Cindy McKenzie: Right, they do, we have a set of garden rules that we modeled after the Dilworth Community Garden just right down the street.

[00:14:50]

They're pretty common sense things, but yes, people maintain their own bed.

>> Savannah Brown: Do you struggle that all with vandalism or any kinda?

>> Cindy McKenzie: [LAUGH] Last year, I mean not a great deal.

>> Robert Sudam: Occasionally might have a tomato or a cabbage go missing, but not vandalism, per se.

>> Savannah Brown: Right, anybody really littering in the garden or do they keep it clean?

[00:15:10]

>> Robert Sudam: No, it's a very clean.

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, we've been very fortunate with that, because we're right on the road.

>> Cindy McKenzie: Within view of, I don't know, 30,000 folks a day, I don't know, it's--

>> Robert Sudam: I think the deer have been the worst vandals. [LAUGH]

>> Savannah Brown: I would say like pests like any kinda like rabbits or deer, or anything?

[00:15:30]

>> Cindy McKenzie: Rabbits, deer, birds.

>> Robert Sudam: But surprisingly we'll find, I mean you can go down there and see where deer walked around. But surprisingly they have not really disturbed our garden, probably because of the road.

>> Cindy McKenzie: Yeah.

>> Robert Sudam: So it hasn't been bad or all.

>> Cindy McKenzie: Not significantly, really.

[00:15:50]

>> Robert Sudam: No, sweet potatoes, they ate the tops off all the sweet [INAUDIBLE] crop, but outside of that, not much.

>> Cindy McKenzie: We've been fortunate, water is another kinda challenge, we do not have city water at the garden. We have a system of rain barrels and Totes.

>> Savannah Brown: Totes?

>> Robert Sudam: Yeah.

[00:16:10]

>> Cindy McKenzie: I could not think of the word for tote today, those are interesting.

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, tell me more about that, how does that work?

>> Robert Sudam: So that's a great system, since the garden is down lower than the church, it's all gravity fed.

>> Savannah Brown: Okay.

>> Robert Sudam: So we have decent pressure from these totes which are kind of commercial big cubes they hold 350 gallons.

[00:16:35]

>> Cindy McKenzie: Or something, yeah that's fine.

>> Robert Sudam: Maybe around that they hold a lot of water, so we have three of those set up to capture water off the roof of the church. And then we also have what, four water barrels, baybe more.

>> Cindy McKenzie: Yeah I guess we only, I guess we just have four, it's just four now.

[00:16:54]

>> Robert Sudam: Yeah.

>> Cindy McKenzie: Yeah, probably just four rain barrels now that we have installed those large tots.

>> Robert Sudam: So we have a significant amount of water and we use a significant amount, and most of it is harvested from the roof.

>> Savannah Brown: Wow.

>> Cindy McKenzie: Yeah.

>> Robert Sudam: Yeah.

>> Savannah Brown: That's pretty awesome, some sustainability going on.

[00:17:11]

>> Robert Sudam: Yeah it's great.

>> Cindy McKenzie: It's great when it rains. [LAUGH]

>> Robert Sudam: It's great when it rains we have had some issues. They key is what we're gonna do is not drain resources and this is a way for us not to drain resources. The totes we got from Friendship Gardens because they were getting rid of one of their gardens, so we salvage those, two of them, and then you picked one from.

[00:17:36]

>> Cindy McKenzie: I guess from Sam who, well they raise tilapia and them I think or ship them-

>> Robert Sudam: What's the name of that group again cuz that's-

>> Cindy McKenzie: It's not 100 Gardens or is it?

>> Robert Sudam: It's a 100 Gardens, yeah, or a 1,000 Gardens?

>> Cindy McKenzie: I think a 100.

[00:17:53]

>> Robert Sudam: That's bad.

>> Cindy McKenzie: I know, it's terrible and Sam and I can't recall his name, he's a really interesting person, he used to do hydroponic gardening, some of it in Haiti.

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah.

>> Cindy McKenzie: Yeah.

>> Savannah Brown: So what happens when it's drought, like do you ever experience?

>> Cindy McKenzie: Yeah.

[00:18:10]

>> Savannah Brown: What happens then?

>> Robert Sudam: If it's extreme, we run out of water, we do supplement.

>> Cindy McKenzie: Right.

>> Robert Sudam: We'll go out there with the hose and just fill up a little bit in one of the totes.

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah.

>> Robert Sudam: And wait for the next rain.

>> Cindy McKenzie: Yeah.

>> Savannah Brown: Well that's really cool, I hadn't heard of anything like that so, do you do any sort of composting?

[00:18:32]

>> Cindy McKenzie: Our composting couple moved.

>> Savannah Brown: [LAUGH]

>> Cindy McKenzie: We did for.

>> Cindy McKenzie: Three years, I'm gonna say three years. We had a couple who were just environmentally friendly and they were both retired and they did some composting, with rotating bins and coffee grounds and that other stuff you throw in there, I don't remember.

[00:19:05]

>> Robert Sudam: Egg shells and-

>> Cindy McKenzie: Yeah, egg shells and leaves and it was all cold comfort I guess you call it, I don't know, and they tended it with help and took about six months or so to cook up some contest and we would use it in the garden.

[00:19:21]

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah.

>> Cindy McKenzie: So it's basically leaves from the property or other clean leaves they would collect from from neighbors it's pretty labor-intensive.

>> Savannah Brown: Very labor-intensive.

>> Cindy McKenzie: Yeah, I've even thought about it at home I just don't think I can make that happen, I want to.

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, no, and composting is and if you live in an urban environment, it can be hard if you don't have somewhere to take it.

[00:19:45]

Like, we're living in an apartment, I can do a bin in my kitchen, but then you have to take it somewhere every week and you've got a brown matter and green matter, so.

>> Cindy McKenzie: Yeah, it's like a recipe and I guess I just didn't feel confident. That we could run the garden, have water, manage the folks that grow produce and compost, so compost kind of went by the wayside, yeah unfortunately,

[00:20:16]

>> Savannah Brown: So, we just mentioned a little bit earlier Robert and I but what about your pollination approach, so.

>> Cindy McKenzie: You're the expert on that.

>> Savannah Brown: [LAUGH]

>> Robert Sudam: We're lucky in that the woods next to the garden there's a lot of pollinators, vines, that grow up, so they're bringing a lot of honey bees and pollinators to the garden.

[00:20:37]

We also have in the center of the garden a pollinator bed?

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah.

>> Robert Sudam: That has flowers that attract pollinators as well, so if you-

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah and that made a honeysuckle [CROSSTALK].

>> Robert Sudam: Honeysuckle.

>> Cindy McKenzie: Yeah.

>> Robert Sudam: And then one thing I like to do is leave some of the cabbage and things of that nature that have the nice flowers, bees love that.

[00:21:01]

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah.

>> Robert Sudam: So let some of those flower because you can also eat the flowers on salads very pretty, but it's really good for attracting pollinators.

>> Savannah Brown: Mm-mh.

>> Robert Sudam: Yeah, we plant flowers specifically to attract pollinators.

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, what I was just I was going back to your produce but were there any kind of well not best sellers but anything that, people love that you guys grow?

[00:21:27]

>> Robert Sudam: People always love fresh tomatoes.

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, okay, I've-

>> Robert Sudam: I mean that is the number one vegetable that people love by far.

>> Cindy McKenzie: Yeah, hands down.

>> Robert Sudam: Now we love to, early in the season, to plant and grow turnips, because turnip's one of the first thing you can get in the ground, and they grow so fast.

[00:21:48]

>> Savannah Brown: Okay.

>> Robert Sudam: And so you can grow a lot of turnips and feed a lot of people in a short period of time and have multiple generations of crops off of that. So that's one of the big ones that we plant, and then we do a lot of kale,

[00:22:01]

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah.

>> Robert Sudam: Kale's another early crop that we can get a lot of volume off of, and then after that is when we go into the tomato plants. The tomato plants in Charlotte are a little tricky because the squirrels love them.

>> Savannah Brown: Really?

>> Cindy McKenzie: Yes.

>> Savannah Brown: [LAUGH]

>> Robert Sudam: So, that is a challenge in Charlotte.

[00:22:19]

>> Cindy McKenzie: My nemesis.

>> Savannah Brown: [LAUGH] The squirrels?

>> Cindy McKenzie: Yes.

>> Savannah Brown: Do you, well my garden is just on my patio so it's just pots. So will you use the same beds, so when you harvest turnips then you just harvest them early enough to put the tomatoes in that same bed.

[00:22:40]

>> Robert Sudam: Right, right and we try to do plants that complement each other, we do a little bit of rotation and always bring in fresh soil each year.a

>> Cindy McKenzie: We tried one of those giant compost cubes this year that they deliver it in the big yellow bag and it'll be interesting to see how that works.

[00:23:05]

Yeah, but we usually just supplement a little bit of garden soil with some sort of compost, mushroom blend or something each year.

>> Savannah Brown: Is there anything you planted that just did not work at all?

>> Cindy McKenzie: Yeah, I'll say.

>> Savannah Brown: [LAUGH]

>> Cindy McKenzie: Well, I meant me personally, I'm not great at thinning, so beets and radishes didn't work so well for me at the community garden.

[00:23:29]

I tried cowpeas this past year and they grew like crazy but I didn't get down there often enough to harvest it that's probably, I mean we've got some Well the cowpeas did, the plants themselves did very well. They did great it was just me harvesting. What else has just been a dud?

[00:23:53]

So, I tried leeks.

>> Robert Sudam: To me turnips have always been the one thing that have not grown, not turnips, the, it's one of the other root vegetables has not grown for me the beets, sorry.

>> Cindy McKenzie: Beets, yeah.

>> Robert Sudam: The beets just will not grow for me.

>> Cindy McKenzie: No I.

[00:24:10]

I'm terrible at these.

>> Savannah Brown: What is thinning?

>> Cindy McKenzie: When you plant a bunch of seeds and then a bunch of them germinate and the little seedlings come up. You're really supposed to thin them out so that their roots don't compete for nutrients.

>> Robert Sudam: When you have the really small seeds, then when you put them down, you just have to make sure that they're at the right spacing.

[00:24:32]

Otherwise, they won't grow. Like carrots, there is a gazillion carrots seeds in a packet.

>> Cindy McKenzie: And they're tiny.

>> Robert Sudam: Yeah, they're tiny.

>> Cindy McKenzie: And so, if you place them too closely and don't thin, then the root bulb, or whatever, can't form. It doesn't have enough room.

>> Savannah Brown: So do you guys do a mix of seeds and kind of already grown plants, if that makes sense?

[00:24:56]

>> Robert Sudam: We do, yes, starters.

>> Cindy McKenzie: That's what I loved about Friendship Trades were their seedlings, particularly the turnips. Just couldn't get enough. They'd get small seedlings, plant them.

>> Robert Sudam: And that's where are all the kohlrobi-

>> Cindy McKenzie: 60 days.

>> Robert Sudam: That's where are the kohlrobi came from as well.

[00:25:16]

>> Cindy McKenzie: Kohlrobi, yeah, yeah.

>> Robert Sudam: Yeah, the turnips are 45 to 60 days.

>> Cindy McKenzie: I was gonna say, I couldn't remember about that.

>> Robert Sudam: And that was great for the kids as well cuz it was instant. [CROSSTALK] Because they start them in the greenhouse.

>> Savannah Brown: I was like cuz like I waited for forever and ever and ever for my peppers.

[00:25:36]

I got my first one little flower and I was like, yes. It was months. Everyday I was out there watering.

>> Robert Sudam: Peppers are a late season.

>> Cindy McKenzie: Yeah, peppers are a challenge for me.

>> Robert Sudam: Yeah, they come very late.

>> Cindy McKenzie: Yeah, and I had a couple, I had two that did great and one, he just couldn't make it.

[00:25:55]

>> Savannah Brown: But it was okay, I mean, I guess that's the the life of gardening.

>> Cindy McKenzie: It is trial and error.

>> Savannah Brown: So can we talk a little bit about the food distribution. So are you harvesting all year, or all summer kind of? Or is there one big harvest?

[00:26:10]

>> Cindy McKenzie: It depends on the crop. Potatoes, one big harvest. I loved growing butternut squash from Friendship, the seedlings came from Friendship Trays. And that was sort of one big, huge harvest at one time. I think otherwise-

>> Robert Sudam: Some of the beans are the same way, so depending on what varieties, so if it's a bush bean, typically all comes at one time.

[00:26:35]

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah.

>> Robert Sudam: Or if it's a determinate tomato, they all come at one time, indeterminate, they don't. So you can pick them all year or all summer. Simi also has a bunch of beds at her house. And grows in those beds for Friendship Trades as well.

>> Savannah Brown: So most of your food goes to Friendship Trades.

[00:26:56]

You guys don't do any kind of farmer's market or anything like that.

>> Robert Sudam: No, no.

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, and what about your congregation, do they come here? I mean, is it mostly just the volunteers for the garden?

>> Cindy McKenzie: It's mostly just the volunteers. Back in the day, we did some harvesting and had some garden days, and also had, when we had just a bounty of tomatoes we would have them available for people to purchase.

[00:27:28]

And the donations would either support that forum stand or Friendship Trades.

>> Robert Sudam: The volunteers really are our church members, but it's not the whole congregation coming down.

>> Savannah Brown: Right, right. What if we fit some of the challenges? I know we talked about the squirrels and some of those things.

[00:27:47]

But what have been some of the other challenges you have experienced with, it doesn't have to be your community garden, but just with community gardens here in Charlotte, what would you say?

>> Robert Sudam: I would say that the number one, you've hit on it, is volunteers, consistent volunteers. You'll get someone who's and there's no, I mean there's just so much to do and people have families, but they'll start gung-ho.

[00:28:09]

And then all of a sudden, when you hit July, and you hit the heat in August, or we'll say July. It's hard to keep people energized at that point in time, to keep coming. Cuz tomatoes, you pick them, a few every day, or around, depends on which kind they are.

[00:28:27]

So you have to keep someone coming down constantly to pick and water, and that's tough. And I've hit that at two community gardens.

>> Cindy McKenzie: I think that's been my biggest challenge as well and just for me, location. I mean, I think a community garden best serves,

>> Cindy McKenzie: A little more narrow, what do you call it, geographical whatever.

[00:28:52]

I live way off Carmel Road, and so it's tough. It's about a 20 minute drive to get to the garden. And the beauty of it though, is Friendship Trays, once you get to our garden, Friendship Trays is just down the road, basically. So that part's wonderful, and I think has allowed the partnership to continue.

[00:29:18]

But the kind of people that seem to really love it are the people that live within walking distance. They can just walk down, pick their produce, tend their plot, and particularly people that don't have access. They may be in a townhome or a condo an apartment and they just don't have space.

[00:29:40]

So some of the younger people or they have limited sunlight, just really, I think enjoy that part of it. Or ride their bike.

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, I think I've noticed that there's all these big lists of all the community gardens in Mecklenburg County. And then when I'm trying to contact people, they're defunct or.

[00:30:04]

I'm not able to reach any, and so it seems like this idea of community gardens, people are really excited about. But when it comes down to it, the gears aren't firing on every cylinder, if that makes sense.

>> Cindy McKenzie: It does.

>> Savannah Brown: What is the one that-

>> Robert Sudam: There are ways that I think, so in a community organization like this, a community garden organization, meaning the friendship, feeding Friendship Trays and gardens.

[00:30:32]

There ways that that community or that organization can motivate the gardens. And so that's kind of, at this point, an element that could be enhanced because if you give a lot of advice, you build some kind of gardens, churches competing, those are the types of things that really energize folks.

[00:30:56]

And I think that might be one thing that could help, cuz like you said, you reached out and they're defunct or it's just hard to get a hold of somebody. And part of that is because it's tough to keep them going. But if you give something that's a little bit, a hands on touch, I think they could do a lot better.

[00:31:18]

>> Savannah Brown: What have been some of your favorite parts of the community [INAUDIBLE]?

>> Robert Sudam: For me, honest to goodness, it's been delivering food to Friendship Trays, knowing that it is going to help the community. I mean, that's been my favorite part about it. I take pride in the quality and the quantity of vegetables that we can produce and provide to help things.

[00:31:47]

>> Cindy McKenzie: Yeah, I've enjoyed that partnership the most. Just, you've mentioned it earlier, when you deliver produce there, you know that it's gonna be used in the kitchen. Because I will say, occasionally, we were donating to Loaves and Fishes, the food pantry right next door. And, it just depends on if one of their clients or their shoppers, if they like that vegetable or need it, and fresh produce is hard to manage [LAUGH].

[00:32:26]

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah.

>> Cindy McKenzie: It's kind of dirty, it's kind of buggy maybe and I think that you know not everybody likes to cook.

>> Robert Sudam: For instance one time we took a huge harvest of carrots that had these beautiful green tops and the debate was do we pull the green tops off?

[00:32:49]

Because it'll save them labor on that side, or is that okay. Maybe they'll figure out something to do with the green tops. So we took all these carrots and they made a carrot top pesto.

>> Savannah Brown: Wow.

>> Robert Sudam: So which we never ever would've thought about.

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah.

>> Robert Sudam: So it just shows they're creative in providing fresh produce to their constituents if you will.

[00:33:08]

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah.

>> Cindy McKenzie: I was trying to look up. There's one really great community garden at an elementary school. I'm drawing a blank. Basically it's on the property and Mecklenburg County provides the water and compost. I'll think of it. I'll find it.

>> Savannah Brown: [CROSSTALK] I know that high school-

[00:33:30]

>> Cindy McKenzie: [CROSSTALK] Yeah.

>> Savannah Brown: They had the urban farm.

>> Cindy McKenzie: [CROSSTALK] Yeah.

>> Savannah Brown: That´s through the friendship trays they kinda started that one.

>> Cindy McKenzie: [CROSSTALK] Right.

>> Savannah Brown: So Lucy told us a little bit about that.

>> Robert Sudam: So that was through them and it was through the 100 gardens, and they're the folks that set up the hydrophonics for that.

[00:33:44]

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah.

>> Robert Sudam: And the fish and the fertilizer. That's a neat space.

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, I had, one of my colleagues interviewed, she's volunteered for a long time with Garringer Farms, so she interviewed, I'm not sure exactly who it was, but she got that interview. So, it was very cool.

[00:34:00]

>> Cindy McKenzie: It was Winterfield Elementary.

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah.

>> Cindy McKenzie: I guess the kids are involved in the neighborhood, too. And they had a really dynamic garden manager. And I cannot remember her name. But I was impressed with that one. It's been a number of years since I've been over there.

[00:34:24]

>> Savannah Brown: And so I know Robert and I had just mentioned this, before, but do you think the people need the prior knowledge to garden or that they can pick it up along the way? Or do you find somebody who volunteers here have knowledge of gardening or grew up gardening?

[00:34:46]

>> Robert Sudam: So I don't think when they're in the garden it matters getting them to the garden. So if they have a background in gardening they're more apt to volunteer. You get someone who has not gardened before, they're so energized energetic that they're fun to have in the garden and they're always incredibly helpful because they just want it.

[00:35:07]

They want so much knowledge.

[00:35:08]

>> [MUSIC]

[00:35:12]

>> Cindy McKenzie: I've really learned the most from like you, my grandmother, hands on, people that have some knowledge, and actually had their hands on the dirt, and did really great things. And even more about insects and pests and.

>> Robert Sudam: The diseases, cuz unfortunately I've had them all in my garden.

[00:35:36]

>> Savannah Brown: [LAUGH]

>> Cindy McKenzie: Well, I've experienced all of that too, but it's been really helpful for me to, I took some classes through the cooperative extension office, over time, and there were, I think it was called the Green Teacher Network. Not sure if it exists or if it's called something different now.

[00:35:56]

And they would offer seminars, like half day, classes, training. And it was really for education, for teachers in the classroom. That other anybody from the community could go, and I learned a ton just by going to some of those, yeah.

>> Savannah Brown: That's what the woman I interviewed previous, she said that a lot of, she was with the UNC Charlotte community garden, and she said a lot of people were going too.

[00:36:29]

And that's kind of a theme that we've been seeing in our sponsors like YouTube gardeners and YouTube farmers. And it's become a teaching tool which is kind of cool. People are saying I have plants doing so well. They can kind of get into that kind of a forum but I think people as long as they have the excitement to try it or just to at least get out there, get their hands dirty one time.

[00:36:51]

And they can definitely learn along the way and like you said in the garden it doesn't matter as much like once you're out there you can figure it out.

>> Cindy McKenzie: It's a lot of fun. I did go to YouTube for several things for potatoes, for different tactics to keep the squirrels off the tomatoes.

[00:37:08]

Yeah, I mean YouTube's great because I know with gardening you've got to be able to see it. You can't just or I can't just read about it. Well figure it all out. I have to come see it as well. So yeah YouTube was pretty good.

>> Robert Sudam: Yeah I found YouTube to be a confidence booster.

[00:37:24]

>> Cindy McKenzie: Yeah.

>> Robert Sudam: If you see someone can do it, you're like well I can do that too, so it's a great resource.

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah we had in class we were talking about how one of the farmers they learned to like fix their tractor through it. And they're like well if they can do it, I can do it.

[00:37:37]

[LAUGH] So have any diseases hit your garden? I know you just mentioned that kinda but.

>> Cindy McKenzie: One year, I don't know, it was some sort of tomato blight when we were just growing mainly tomatoes, and it rained constantly that year. And it was just, it looked like something from Mars.

[00:37:58]

It was bizarre, just defoliated all the tomato plants and they were just vines with kind of squishy tomatoes left. It was terrible.

>> Robert Sudam: Powdery mildew is always.

>> Cindy McKenzie: Yeah. Squash. Squash.

>> Savannah Brown: What is it?

>> Robert Sudam: Powdery mildew.

>> Savannah Brown: Aaww.

>> Robert Sudam: It hits your squash and zucchini early.

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah.

[00:38:20]

>> Robert Sudam: And so it's always one that's-

>> Savannah Brown: Mm-hm.

>> Cindy McKenzie: And squash bugs.

>> Robert Sudam: Yeah, so cut the cut worm.

>> Cindy McKenzie: Yeah, is that what it is?

>> Robert Sudam: Yeah.

>> Cindy McKenzie: Yeah, I have that at home as well.

>> Savannah Brown: What do you see for the future?

>> Cindy McKenzie: For me, I'm not going to say anything all that creative partnerships, children.

[00:38:57]

>> Cindy McKenzie: I think there could really be a revival. If,

>> Cindy McKenzie: I don't know how to say this.

>> Robert Sudam: Maybe you have to find passionate people.

>> Cindy McKenzie: Yeah, you really do, a core at least ten.

>> Robert Sudam: But that's true with anything.

>> Cindy McKenzie: Yeah.

>> Robert Sudam: So,

>> Robert Sudam: Clearly, it was when Obama was president, right?

[00:39:23]

His wife was an advocate.

>> Cindy McKenzie: Yeah, good point.

>> Robert Sudam: And so you saw a lot of people in gardens and wanting to kinda emulate that and understanding because she was a spokesperson for it. There was a lot of interest at that point in time. So if you find someone like that, that can outreach.

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah.

>> Robert Sudam: And get people excited about it, then absolutely.

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, and the full cycle of planting, harvesting, and cooking.

>> Cindy McKenzie: I always wanted to do some sort of cooking classes for people that otherwise might just not be able to have that experience. Cooking fresh produce particularly with children.

[00:40:10]

We try that a little bit here and there, but it's just sort of one off kind of things, not anything organized, over time.

>> Savannah Brown: Have you helped any community gardens get started or partnered with any kind of organizations?

>> Robert Sudam: We have, we have the church that we helped.

[00:40:36]

>> Cindy McKenzie: Yeah, we went to a meeting at Matthews Church. I think at one time they had a garden on the church grounds that had so many times, it just sort of goes its way. And they were considering restarting it, some members really wanted to sort of give it a boost.

[00:41:01]

And we went and talked to them about.

>> Robert Sudam: Shared some of our trials and tribulations, some of those things that worked and did not work and.

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, yeah, experience.

>> Cindy McKenzie: Offered some help, I think they wanted to be independent and use the resources that they have.

>> Robert Sudam: And they were truly going toward a community garden as well.

[00:41:26]

Outreach to neighbors and bring in all sorts of socio-economic diverse groups, which I thought was great. I'm not sure how they're doing today, I'd love to know.

>> Cindy McKenzie: I know, I've driven by there a few times, but the garden's in the back, and I just haven't gotten out of the car, gone over there and looked.

[00:41:47]

And the gardening has been popular at some of the retirement communities. I think you just have to have sort of a-

>> Cindy McKenzie: Synergy.

>> Robert Sudam: You need a couple of people to be the garden cabinets.

>> Cindy McKenzie: Yeah.

>> Robert Sudam: That really carry the garden and then can get the other volunteers and garden members took this back.

[00:42:17]

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, I think one of the things that you all said earlier that I thought was the most important is that I think you're going to have to evolve. And as the world keeps evolving, and if they stay static, I don't know how they'll do. I think Charlotte especially is kind of in this praise of food right now.

[00:42:35]

There's always a restaurant or something popping up and the especially this farm to table, that's another kind of aspect we are looking at. So I think if community gardens can start maybe looking for different avenues either with how the industry food has always intended to be able to to kind of evolve with it.

[00:42:53]

And I think we can do well, I mean, and there's very few people want to be involved in them with gardens. I'm sure my brother moved into a new neighborhood up in Cornelius, and the developer had, I don't know, let's just say half an acre, and asked the neighborhood would you like a sport court kinda thing?

[00:43:21]

>> Cindy McKenzie: Or a community garden? And they overwhelmingly chose the garden. And so the developer put in all the beds, leveled the land, and put in all the beds for them and the water source, and the gravel pathways, and everything, and fencing.

>> Savannah Brown: Wow.

>> Cindy McKenzie: So the developer paid for all that.

[00:43:39]

[LAUGH] And it was sort of a garden on a platter. Here you go, it was great.

>> Cindy McKenzie: I mean, I could see the Cross Charlotte Trail community gardens, along that. It comes to funding, too, I guess.

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, is there anything else maybe I didn't ask you, or that you wanna tell me, or just a fun story about the garden that you'd like to share?

[00:44:16]

>> Cindy McKenzie: I don't know about fun stories.

>> Robert Sudam: [LAUGH]

>> Cindy McKenzie: We've had rabbits nesting in some of the beds. Last weekend when we had our spring cleanup day, we had a hawk come down and eat a snake right there, and yeah, so we've had our moments with wildlife.

>> Robert Sudam: Think I mentioned it to you earlier before we started taping, but we have kids come into the garden where the middle schoolers come in.

[00:44:49]

It's always fun to say okay, pick a radish, and they have no idea what plant to go to. Can you please pick a bean for me? No idea where to find it. And to kind of take them through the garden and let them discover where the vegetables are, and to see them light up.

[00:45:07]

And to pull a radish out of the ground, and dare the group, who's gonna take a bite out of the radish? And watch one child take a bite, and then they all want a bite of the radish. Or pick some sort of herb where you pick the leaf off, there's so much or the licorice plant, something tastes like licorice.

[00:45:28]

And then they have an aha moment. That candy actually comes from this as well. And it's those are the moments where it's really neat. You can see you're starting to plant a little seed in achild, hopefully it will grow into a future garden.

>> Cindy McKenzie: I just feel like today, a lot of children and families don't have the opportunity to get their hands in the dirt.

[00:45:54]

My grandmother grew up on a farm and she picked cotton, and she learned how to can so she wouldn't have to pick cotton.

>> Robert Sudam: [LAUGH]

>> Cindy McKenzie: And she did water bath canning until she was probably about 83, she stopped. But she would can tomatoes and green beans, and we'd eat those throughout the next year, and-

[00:46:21]

>> Cindy McKenzie: Made jams and just always had a small vegetable garden in our backyard, very small. And great flowers, it's just a neat way to connect with her.

>> Robert Sudam: The same experience, my dad and mom were gardeners. They always had big gardens, and they always looked for things of interest.

[00:46:46]

So one year we were living in.

>> Cindy McKenzie: Really, yeah.

>> Robert Sudam: And my dad and I went down to the lake, which is in our backyard, and we're catching brim with cane poles. And my dad said, I'm gonna teach you how the used to grow their tomatoes. And so he brought this bucket full of brim up to the garden, dug a hole.

[00:47:07]

Hopefully PETA's not gonna listen to this.

>> Savannah Brown: [LAUGH]

>> Robert Sudam: Dug a hole, threw a fish in the hole, and put a seed, a tomato seed, and buried it. And the decay of the fish fertilized the most beautiful tomato plants you've ever seen.

>> Savannah Brown: That's cool.

>> Robert Sudam: And so he'd always do things like that to keep it interesting and fun.

[00:47:28]

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, that's true fish.

>> Robert Sudam: Yeah.

>> Savannah Brown: [LAUGH]

>> Cindy McKenzie: I've tried buying some. I mean, some kinda funny things do happen, some of the fish imports. I used to get home and my dog just went crazy, and dug up around the roots, all the tomatoes. I can't do that.

[00:47:49]

I can't keep him away from it, but a real fish, that's really cool.

>> Savannah Brown: And then we'd plant a small crop for the course for it has to sell promenade. So we'd go out there and we're in the garden, shaking it. We'd come out with beautiful ears because of doing that donation, we're saying That's really cool.

[00:48:12]

I know, my mom, she was a big gardener, big composter, and then we had, which sounds so funky, but she let us make a worm farm. Where [CROSSTALK] you and so-

>> Robert Sudam: Those are perfect.

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, it was so much fun. And I think just that, she instilled that love just for watching something grow and taking care of something in me and so, and just having fun.

[00:48:36]

Every year, we could take out something new to try, so it didn't always work, but she let's us go, we could try something. So just experimenting and seeing what can happen when you do different things and-

>> Cindy McKenzie: Never gets old to me.

>> Robert Sudam: No.

>> Cindy McKenzie: I mean, to plant a seed that size of the head of a pen and have a beautiful carrot, it's just amazing to me.

[00:49:04]

>> Robert Sudam: And I like to experiment, I'm always planting something new and different.

>> Cindy McKenzie: Yeah, remember that midnight black tomatoes?

>> Robert Sudam: Yeah, they're black tomatoes, which squirrels don't like black, they love red.

>> Savannah Brown: [LAUGH] Good to know.

>> Robert Sudam: So I'm always doing a, more of a purple variety of tomato, which helps.

[00:49:19]

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, yeah.

>> Robert Sudam: And then from looking at heirloom vegetables that are coming back, and bringing something like the ground tomatoes, which are, taste like a fruit?

>> Savannah Brown: Really?

>> Robert Sudam: Yeah, there's a lot of pectin in ' so they're used in pies used to be using pies. There's so many different things to learn, yeah.

[00:49:39]

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah, I think gardening, you're like a little bit of a scientist, a little bit of an experimenter, I don't know, it's easy to do all kinds of different things with that. And we don't have to just put yourself into like, I just plant things, because there's always something new.

[00:49:53]

I mean, even just rotating your plants or seeing where they should go in the sun, especially, if you have a patio kind of garden. It definitely is a little bit of an advantage to move them around and see what they like, so. Well, I don't have any more questions, but if there's anything else you would like to share about the garden or?

[00:50:10]

>> Cindy McKenzie: I don't know, can you think of any, let me see, write down a couple of things, but I think you've asked all the questions and we've covered it all. Another thing that sort of stood out to me, I should mention, were the times that we went to the farmers market as a young girl growing up.

[00:50:30]

You kind of never forget that, or I didn't, the Kings Drive Farmers Market and the Yorkmont Farmers Market. I've really enjoyed that as a child. And I think that was it.

>> Robert Sudam: My grandparents always gardened in community gardens.

>> Cindy McKenzie: Really?

>> Robert Sudam: They never really had one in their-

[00:50:50]

>> Cindy McKenzie: Really?

>> Robert Sudam: Yes, always and so-

>> Cindy McKenzie: We just didn't have them in Charlotte.

>> Robert Sudam: When we would visit them, I'd go with my grandfather, drive out to his community garden. And it was always a bunch of like-minded, passionate people taking pride in their plot, pride in their vegetables, showing off.

[00:51:11]

>> Cindy McKenzie: [LAUGH]

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah.

>> Robert Sudam: And that was always a great event.

>> Cindy McKenzie: Where was that?

>> Robert Sudam: Winston, Virginia.

>> Cindy McKenzie: Okay.

>> Robert Sudam: In a bunch of, couple different places.

>> Savannah Brown: Yeah. I think community gardens are just wonderful, especially now living in an urban environment. And I just I don't have the space to garden except for the pots I can grow, so I do peppers where my best.

[00:51:34]

And then I had basil, which did really well, but my tomatoes just didn't do as well. Because my pot wasn't deep enough.

>> Robert Sudam: Yeah.

>> Savannah Brown: So I think they got a little root rot, they weren't doing great. They were blooming, but they just weren't producing. So I think community gardens for people who maybe don't have the space or even just want to be in an area where they can be with like-minded people.

[00:51:56]

>> Robert Sudam: Right.

>> Savannah Brown: It's the perfect blend.

>> Robert Sudam: Yeah, I agree.

>> Cindy McKenzie: I think a challenge for me too with the garden was if you're working which, of course, you are. You have these aspirations where we're gonna have a potluck or we're gonna have an event down at the garden or in it.

[00:52:18]

It's hard to make all that happen, particularly when the produces are rolling in like you said July and August, but everybody's at the beach, I mean, palm garden season. That's always been always, I guess, have this romanticized notion of what it would be like to have a community garden.

[00:52:39]

And it's tough to keep up with the day to day, week to week, month to month task. It's hard to get to, sometimes, the fun stuff, anyway. I can't think of anything else.

>> Robert Sudam: No.

>> Savannah Brown: Well, thank you both so much, this was wonderful.

[tabby title='Captioned Audio'] [tabbyending]

James Ferebee is a 20-year-old white male and owner of Ferebee Farm, which he started in 2011. He began farming commercially in 2015 and raises heritage sheep and pigs, as well as chickens and ducks. James uses the rotational pasture farming method, favored by farmer Joel Salatin of Polyface Farm in Virginia. In high school he was a member of 4-H and completed a farm internship with his veterinarian.

[tabby title='Tape Log']

Time	Subject
0:00:11	Introduction
0:00:23	James discusses how long he has been farming
0:00:46	High school 4H Program
0:01:29	How we got started farming
0:03:24	Livestock on Ferebee Farms
0:05:50	Daily chores and seasonal differences in farm work
0:07:59	Joel Salatin and the regenerative and sustainable agriculture movement
0:12:05	Livestock movement keeps pastures healthier, reduces diseases
0:15:25	Consumer demand for naturally raised product from small farms
0:18:14	Health and quality benefits from pasture raised livestock
0:23:07	Sheep’s wool: weather protection and shearing
0:25:36	Dealing with rainy and cold weather with goats, chickens, and sheep
0:29:34	Fighting internal parasites in livestock
0:31:27	Marketing challenges in the region, competing with large farms
0:33:19	Climate benefits of the Carolina piedmont area
0:36:09	Williamsburg Packing Company for butchering
0:37:03	Ferebee Farms vendor locations
0:37:27	Wool and yarn production and sale
0:38:53	Shearing sheep and being self taught
0:40:31	USDA vs. state meat inspections for sale
0:44:15	Expanding getting Ferebee Farms product to consumers
0:47:51	Working with the Catawba Fresh Market
0:49:26	South Carolina and Federal incentives and education
0:52:51	Public agricultural ignorance, people don’t understand where their food comes from
0:57:19	Looking forward and the future of Ferebee Farms

[tabby title='Transcript']

[00:00:10]

>> Louanne Hoverman: This is Louanne Hoverman, graduate student at UNC Charlotte, interviewing James Ferebee of Ferebee Farms. James?

>> James Ferebee: Hey, how's it going?

>> Louanne Hoverman: So how long have you been farming?

>> James Ferebee: Well, I have been farming.

>> James Ferebee: So-called commercially as a business since 2015. I've been raising livestock since 2011.

[00:00:36]

Started out as a 4-H project, and it just kinda grew from there.

>> Louanne Hoverman: So what is the 4-H program in high school?

>> James Ferebee: Sure, 4-H is a program for youth from, I believe, it's the age of five all the way up through the end of high school. And so there's a lot of stuff that's involved in 4H.

[00:00:59]

There's the farming aspect, but there's also other projects as well. But the idea is to, it's an additional learning tool to teach kids about agriculture. As far as the livestock projects, let kids be able to have hands-on experience with animals, with agriculture, with growing things. So it's a really neat program that they're doing out with that.

[00:01:27]

>> Louanne Hoverman: How did you get started farming?

>> James Ferebee: Well, I got started when we had already been gardening ever since I was little. We had chickens and we had some friends who had goats and their goats had babies. And they gave us a couple of babies, and I guess that piqued my interest in livestock and farming in general.

[00:01:51]

>> Louanne Hoverman: So just having babies is all, a couple of goat babies is all it took to really decide to take that leap to?

>> James Ferebee: Well, at first not necessarily. At first, it was just my assigned chore to take care of the baby goats. But as with any animal especially baby animals, you can become attached to him.

[00:02:10]

And I began to really enjoy taking care of the goats. And so I got more goats and grew my goat herd from there. And then after an internship with my veterinarian during my senior year in high school I worked with him on his farm. He has a farm down in Fort Lawn, South Carolina that's a things farm.

[00:02:37]

And so he raises sheep, pigs, and cattle and poultry. And so that got me interested in some other aspects of the livestock. And after several years with the dairy goats I kind of decided I didn't really want to do that as a business. Just because of the intensive care that dairying requires throughout the year.

[00:03:04]

And so I started looking more into raising livestock for meat. And I got my first couple of pigs. We raised those just for the family pork, and I got started with my sheep as well.

>> Louanne Hoverman: What kind of livestock do you raise?

>> James Ferebee: Well, my primary focus is my sheep, so I'm primarily a shepherd.

[00:03:29]

I raise Gulf Coast sheep. The Gulf Coast sheep are a landrace breed that originated In the southeastern United States. They're descended from sheep that were left here about 500 years ago by European explorers. And so they adapted to the environment of the Southeast with minimal human selection. So they're a much hardier breed that has high resistance to heat, a high parasite resistance.

[00:03:57]

And they thrive in a sub-tropical climate much better than [INAUDIBLE] breeds. So [INAUDIBLE], their numbers dropped about 80 years ago whenever modern medicine came around for livestock. And enabled [INAUDIBLE] European breeds to survive. And so they're currently a very rare breed, and it's slowly slowly starting to show signs of recovering.

[00:04:36]

And so I'm working with other breeders throughout the region to preserve this breed of livestock. And then the other livestock that I raise, I have a small number of goats, I'd kept a few around for personal milk consumption. So I have some Nigerian Dwarf and Oberhasli dairy goats.

[00:04:56]

And then I raise feeder pigs throughout the year as well. I don't usually raise any particular breed, usually mixes and crosses of heritage breeds. And then with our poultry, our laying hens are various heritage breeds. And then our meat herds are just the regular commercial broiler chickens and white turkeys that we get from the hatchery.

[00:05:26]

And we raise them out on pasture to provide all-natural pastured beyond organic meat.

>> Louanne Hoverman: Okay, can you describe a typical day on the farm?

>> James Ferebee: Sure.

>> Louanne Hoverman: And I think we may need to separate this kind of seasonally. Because I think when it's mating season's gonna be a little bit different than when it's maybe not mating season.

[00:05:49]

>> James Ferebee: Sure, absolutely, I'm not currently farming full time. So right now I have another part time job as well as the farm is not quite big enough to provide a full income at the moment. So usually day in day out is just regular morning and evening chores. So I'll come out, feed and water the animals, check on everybody, [INAUDIBLE], which is [INAUDIBLE] season, there are babies being born.

[00:06:17]

So I'm keeping a close eye on our flock of ewes, checking to see if any new babies are born. Making sure that the babies that have already been born are thriving, getting enough to eat, and that they're doing well. During the summer when our flock is out on pasture, they are moved to fresh pasture every one or two days.

[00:06:40]

So they're moving around fairly frequently around on our property and on our neighbors' properties that are being leased during the summer time. And so the electric fencing that we have out here in our lambing pen is, it's a portable electric fencing. So that way we can move it around on a daily or once every other day basis.

[00:07:06]

And we attach a solar electric fence energizer to it so that way we don't have to be tied to a AC electricity source. And so that requires a little bit more day to day or weekly work than this time of year. So usually what we'll do, we'll move them around, move them to a fresh set of pasture.

[00:07:32]

And go ahead and set up the next section that they're gonna be in the next day to facilitate the ease of movement there. And so as they move around we just gauge how much grass they're eating. So that way they're getting plenty to eat and not overgrazing or undergrazing any particular area.

[00:07:54]

>> Louanne Hoverman: What made you decide to add different types of livestock to the farm?

>> James Ferebee: Well a lot of it, I guess when I was getting started I was introduced to Joel Salatin of Polyface Farms up in Virginia. And he's really We've been a pioneer and a major thinker in the regenerative and sustainable agriculture movement.

[00:08:19]

So conventional agriculture, they want you to raise extremely large amounts of animals inside confined areas, and move them through as quickly as possible. So that's how our modern food system works. Most farmers make pennies on the dollar from the products that you buy at the grocery store. Most of the money that you're spending is not going to the farmer who grew the food.

[00:08:51]

It's going to the middle men, the packers, the people who put I think cereal. I have heard that the companies that create the cardboard for the cereal boxes get more out of that dollar than the farmers who grew the grain. And so I didn't really want to go the route of commercial agriculture and so when I was introduced to Joel Salton in his farm up at Polyface Farm.

[00:09:20]

What he does, he has gone to a pasture based farming system, where he mimics the natural systems that we see in nature, in the natural ecosystems. And raises livestock in such a way that they're basically just allowed to exhibit all their natural instincts, instead of trying to curb their instincts and stop them from behaving like animals do rather he is channeling their instincts so that way you can have a productive farm.

[00:09:57]

And at the same time you are producing a healthier product because you have happier animals, healthier animals. The outdoors and the rotational pasture grazing method that he uses and that I use as well by rotating livestock around the pasture, mimics the movement of great herds in places like the Great Plains or the African Serengeti, and that stimulates biodiversity in the pastures.

[00:10:28]

It fertilizes the soil naturally, so we don't have to use chemical fertilizers. And it sequesters carbon out of the atmosphere, because instead of overgrazing one section of the pasture at a time and just grazing it to the ground by moving the livestock around it's allowing the pastures to grow and produce a lot more grass per year than a conventionally managed pasture will.

[00:10:55]

And so that sucks carbon out of the atmosphere, puts it into the growing plants and when the cattle eat it and obviously comes out through the manure. And instead of the manure just being vaporized, like what happens with a lot of commercial factory farms and systems, it is incorporated into the soil and it builds top soil.

[00:11:16]

It increases the health of the pasture and so using the natural systems and applying them to livestock farming, it creates healthier animals and healthier product, and it improves the environment at the same time. So,

>> James Ferebee: I'm not sure where I was going with that, [COUGH]. What's the question again?

[00:11:48]

>> Louanne Hoverman: I don't remember.

>> James Ferebee: Okay, [LAUGH].

>> Louanne Hoverman: I was curious if by having the animals graze the pastures like you do, do their movements literally on the pasture does that help the grass and the grounds?

>> James Ferebee: Absolutely. So, in all the great grasslands of the world, the patterns you see are the large groups of livestock all bunched up together and moved around quickly.

[00:12:14]

The reason they do that is primarily for protection against predators. You have wolves, in the American great plains or you have the lions in Africa. And so, that by moving around quickly, that keeps animals healthier, they aren't plagued by parasites and diseases as they would if they were kept in one spot.

[00:12:34]

And so there constantly moving around, eating grass and then moving to a new spot away from yesterday's manure, which harbors all those diseases, and so they're always getting fresh grass. And so instead of predators moving, the herbivores around in our pasture based farming system we use portable electric fencing.

[00:12:57]

So the portable electric fencing keeps all the animals together in one area instead of just spreading out across one pasture. And so by only giving them one section of pasture each day, however much grass they'll eat each day. They're moving around every day throughout the year whenever the pastures are growing.

[00:13:19]

And so they're only eating grass on that one spot once usually every once a month or two. So it might be a month, it might be two months before they come back around to that one spot, depending on how quick the grass is growing. And so, unlike a conventionally managed pasture where the animals are in one spot for weeks or months.

[00:13:40]

Once the animals grazed one section, they don't come back to that section again until it has completely recovered and the plants have recovered from where they've been graced. Whereas if the animals were there for longer they would graze that plant and then bite it again lower and eventually kill the grass.

[00:13:56]

And that's why many conventional cattle farms you just see weeds out in the field that has almost no grass. And so that stimulates the pastured grasses to grow thicker. It increases the biodiversity, you usually see lot more species of grasses and other herbaceous plants growing. And it also allows the other wildlife to thrive in the pasture as well.

[00:14:24]

All the insects, the butterflies, the grasshoppers, the little field mice instead of being constantly in danger of being trampled by the others kinds livestock, the livestock are only in one spot at a time. So when the livestock move to one section, all the little creatures that live in the meadow they run out of that section where it's safe and then once the livestock move on they can come back.

[00:14:49]

And that preserves the natural environment of the pastures and meadows and allows the wildlife to thrive alongside of livestock rather than being in competition for the resources.

>> Louanne Hoverman: Well, I had never really thought about that.

>> James Ferebee: Yes, ma'am.

>> Louanne Hoverman: Okay,

>> Louanne Hoverman: Now you've only been farming for a short period of time.

[00:15:16]

>> James Ferebee: Sure.

>> Louanne Hoverman: But have you noticed any changes within really anything to do with livestock farming?

>> James Ferebee: Sure, probably the biggest change I've seen just in the few years that I've really been doing this. The consumer demand for naturally raised products, organic products, and meats, and stuff like that are raised in a way that is in harmony with the environment.

[00:15:50]

The consumer demand for that has really skyrocketed. 50 years ago or so, people didn't really consider whether or not the cow that their hamburger came from ate grass or, Was kept in a factory barn or was allowed to live out on the pasture.

>> Louanne Hoverman: Or even 15 years ago it really wasn't.

[00:16:15]

>> James Ferebee: It really wasn't. [INAUDIBLE]

With the environment or the climate or pollution. And so people are a lot more environmentally aware now. And so not only are they concerned about the climate, but people are also realizing that conventionally grown needs or other agriculture products are really not as healthy as those that are managed in an ecological way.

[00:16:52]

So our meats, our land is 100% grass fed and you can In this day and age, we've got phones, so you can go on the Internet and Google scientific studies that compare grass fed meats to grain fed meats. And those studies have shown that grass fed meats are consistently higher in vitamins.

[00:17:13]

Vitamins that are high in minerals, they have good fats rather than the bad fats and they are also high in like omega-3 fatty acids as well and people are coming to understanding and people know more about all these. Little nutrients and things that are helpful to their health whereas again 15, 20 years ago if you asked your average person what omega-3 was, most people wouldn't even know what the word even means.

[00:17:45]

Whereas now, it's a buzzword. You can see it in marketing whether it's been added artificially or naturally to a product. People are a lot more aware of what's in their food than they were a couple of decades ago.

>> Louanne Hoverman: The health benefits, do you know if it comes from is it the grass?

[00:18:09]

Is it being able to graze, and move? Is it a combination?

>> James Ferebee: Well, I think it's really combination. Livestock raised in a conventional setting are generally less healthy than livestock in a pasture based setting, just because they weren't designed to live in one spot all their lives. Pigs were not designed to live in.

[00:18:34]

Factories with concrete floors for all their life they were you know, you see their wild counterparts of the wild boar or you know in Africa you've got Warhawks or whatever. You know they're they're roaming free through was there wallowing in mud and, you know just children's story books you know, everybody knows that you know, pig belongs in mud.

[00:18:56]

You know [LAUGH] however, it's whether or not you know it's healthy for them to live, you know, just in mud, like most story books tried to portray, you know, in nature pigs like to find you know what areas and wallow in them, because for a number of reasons they do it to cool down, they do it because the mud helps kill parasites.

[00:19:17]

But they live outdoors. They are allowed to behave like they are designed to do. And so they don't have all the health issues that most conventional livestock have. And so because of that, they don't need to be treated with antibiotics, or artificial hormones, or steroids in order to stay alive or to stay healthy.

[00:19:40]

And many times, those drugs that are given to most livestock through the meat, or through the milk, or through the eggs. And so again, awareness of the Places. Well, where do you think, you know perfect breeding ground for these bacteria to change and become resistant to antibiotics? Well, just look at a modern factory farm where they're constantly feeding and low doses of antibiotics to the animals to keep them healthy.

[00:20:16]

It's a perfect breeding ground for the bacteria to adapt to that. And then those bacteria come around and thank humans and we have nothing to treat them with. So you know, you have that issue there and then you adjust the, you know, issue with drugs in general or not, you know, it's not healthy to have, you know, lots of drugs in your system unless you have some health problems that needs that to fix it.

[00:20:40]

So pasture livestock, they don't need to be all drugged up like most conventional livestock. And then the grass is a natural diet. In nature, you don't see Bison or wildebeest going around and harvesting corn or seeds from all these plants and eating large amounts of it, they're grazing.

[00:21:03]

They're designed to digest leafy greens, and. Plants that generally have very complex fibers and that's why their digestive system is built to digest cellulose which most animals can't do and turn that into protein, into food, whereas grains, which are very simple carbohydrates, they are very high in sugars.

[00:21:31]

If you take any animal that's been on pasture, and you just suddenly give them a lot of grain, they are going to get sick cause their bodies aren't uses to it. You have to slowly let them acclimate and adapt to be able to digest grains, because it's not a natural food stuff for herbivores in the wild.

[00:21:54]

>> Louanne Hoverman: Is the reverse true, if you take these conventionally farmed animals that are living on grain, and you-

>> James Ferebee: Sure.

>> Louanne Hoverman: Put them to pasture?

>> James Ferebee: Sure. Well, because their digestive systems are adapted to what they're eating, if you're gonna change the die you have to move it slowly to go reverse as well because they don't have the correct microbes in their gut to digest and cellular and so if you're making in the and it's that and so because livestock natural diet, they're not being fed large amounts of grain.

[00:22:42]

They don't need to be given drugs to keep them healthy. All of that combined. It's a combination of a lot of that that creates a more healthy product, so.

>> Louanne Hoverman: Since they do spend so much time on outdoors, how are they affected by weather? Especially with weather changes, or drastic weather changes.

[00:23:06]

>> James Ferebee: Well, adult sheep particularly when they have full fleeces, they can withstand just about any weather that comes through. However, whenever they are freshly shorn and they don't have the protection of their fleece, they can be susceptible to cold or rain. And same goes for the newborn lambs.

[00:23:27]

So whenever it's gonna get really cold or if it's gonna be raining and there's babies or if they've been recently shorn, then I'll bring them all in, into the barn where they can be warm and dry. But for the most part, you know, they're perfectly fine in most weather.

[00:23:51]

Wool insulates, wet or dry and most people don't know this but not only does wool insulate against cold. It keeps heat in it also insulates against the heat to keep The animal cooler. So, in the summer, if a sheep has zero wool, then they can over heat and get sunburns just as much as a sheep with a full fleece could get over heated in the summer.

[00:24:18]

And so that's why we sheer our flock in fairly early in the spring time. So, that way they grow back a little bit of wool before summer, so that way they have enough wool to protect them from the sun and the sunlight from burning their skin, since white sheep have very fair skin and are susceptible to sunburn.

[00:24:39]

And it also allows the air to circulate around next to their skin and keep them cooler than they would be otherwise. Yeah, so that's one of the ways that they're able to stay cool in the summer and then this breed of sheep in particular, the Gulf Coast sheep, you'll notice that they don't have any wools on their legs or on their face.

[00:25:01]

And the wool on their bellies is very thin or sometimes non existent. And so that way the wool on their backs and sides can keep the sun off of them and help circulate air. But then air also can circulate underneath the sheep, around the legs, and around the face and can suck heat away from the sheep and keep the sheep cooler.

[00:25:22]

So those are a number of ways that they're adapted to the heat and stay cool in the summer. So, yeah.

>> Louanne Hoverman: How do the goats and chickens fare in extreme weather?

>> James Ferebee: Sure, well, goats would have you believe that just a few drops of rain would kill them.

[00:25:43]

However, if it's summertime and there's a pop up thunderstorm, it's not gonna hurt them to get wet. But since they don't have wool like sheep, they are a lot more susceptible to the wet in the wintertime. If it's just cold, then they can take just about any temperature as long as they're able to acclimate to the winter weather but the goats can't be cold and wet.

[00:26:04]

And so, if it's gonna be raining in the winter time, then they are brought into the barn or at least have access to a barn where they can run in for shelter. And then during the summer, it's very similar to the sheep where they don't have wool, but they have longer hair that helps keep the sun off their backs and keep them cool.

[00:26:25]

And obviously, during summer for any livestock a constant supply of cool fresh water is very important as well. With the chicken, they're not really affected by the heat a whole lot, if it's particularly hot sometimes they'll be a drop in the number of eggs laid, as they're putting more of their energy into keeping cool rather than laying eggs.

[00:26:50]

One of the ways that the chicken's stay cooler in the summer is to dust bathe,. So they'll sort of scratch around in the dust and get it all up underneath their feathers and usually that'll do that in the shade to stay cool. And in the winter, again, our hands have access to shelter constantly.

[00:27:15]

So if they wanna go out in the rain, they're welcomed to, but usually, they choose to stay under shelter except for some of the bravest ones. But yeah, access to shelter if they need it and then in the summer constant fresh supply of cool water. In the winter usually will increase their feed intake so that way they've got the extra calories to stay warm, so.

[00:27:40]

>> Louanne Hoverman: Okay, I know in the Charlotte area this past winter it was extremely wet.

>> James Ferebee: Yes.

>> Louanne Hoverman: Do you have it very wet?

>> James Ferebee: We did, and we certainly had many issues with mud. So you can see out here in this pen, [INAUDIBLE] purchased some old hay bails that were starting to rot from my friend who grows the hay, and I just unrolled them.

[00:28:11]

So the big round bails of hay, and I just unrolled them out here to put a layer over top of the mud to keep the animals up out of the mud in the dry, especially since the lambs were getting ready to start being born. So that's definitely been helpful to keep control on the mud.

[00:28:28]

Other than that, putting down straw and hay, or weed chips, or into keep down the mud, there's not a whole lot that we can do whenever there's so much rain coming down, [COUGH]

>> Louanne Hoverman: Fortunately, you don't have a lot of goats cuz you said, the goats don't tolerate wet and cold.

[00:28:49]

>> James Ferebee: The goat don't tolerate wet and cold. And so if there's just a few, you can see our hay feeders here they have over hanging roofs where a lot of times the goats will go underneath there if it's just a little bit bit of rain. And then we've also got our other little shelters, we've got the little igloo doghouse here, as well.

[00:29:12]

But, yeah, whenever the rain's really coming down hard then we've got to move the goats up to the barn so that way they can stay warm and dry up there.

>> Louanne Hoverman: What are some of the challenges farming in this area?

>> James Ferebee: Well, with sheep and goats in particular, a big challenge for any sheep and goat farmer in the Southeast is internal parasites because of our warm, subtropical climate.

[00:29:45]

Internal parasites thrive, and so one of the ways that I deal with that, first of all, the Gulf Coast sheep are already resistant to those. They're not as susceptible as some other breeds, [INAUDIBLE]. Most internal parasite have three or four week life cycle and so if it's longer than that before the sheep come around back to that same pasture, then the parasites will have died by then.

[00:30:14]

And so rotationally grazing keeps the parasite levels low. Also, moving our poultry around following the sheep and goats helps as well because poultry will eat a lot snails and slugs which harbor a lot of internal parasites that affect sheep and goats. And so those parasites can't survive in a chickens' digestive system.

[00:30:41]

So when the chicken eats the snails or slugs that's an intermediate host to that parasite, it dies instead of being passed back into a sheep or a goat. And so by using multiple different species moving around from the same area various times throughout the year it sort of confuses the parasites or the pathogens since most of those parasites and diseases are species specific.

[00:31:05]

And if they don't have the proper host, they'll die. And so by using multiple species that helps each of them to have a better health and not have as many issues of this. I think probably one of the other biggest challenges is just marketing, can be an issue especially whenever.

[00:31:35]

One of the things that a lot of people sort of think is that you've either got to go big or get out. That's the mantra that industrial agriculture wants to push. Is that you've either got to be this big corporation or you can't survive at all and so one of the things that I've been doing right now with the farming is not providing full income as a part time at the moment.

[00:32:05]

Although my goal is to eventually get to point where it's able to provide a full salary. But, When you're starting at farming, going and selling your products retail trying to find a wholesaler, you're going to retain a lot more of that, each food dollar, you're gonna have a much higher profit, than if you're selling large amounts to some big buyer like Tyson or whatever big industrial food provider.

[00:32:41]

And by direct marketing your products, you can start with friends and family. You can give somebody, a friend, some of your product to try. That's one of the best ways to get people to know about your product, let them try a little bit. Once they've tried it and they come back for more, they can tell their friends about it and so just starting small, starting with word of mouth marketing is definitely very helpful there.

[00:33:13]

>> James Ferebee: Yeah?

>> Louanne Hoverman: Are there any benefits or strengths to farming in the the area?

>> James Ferebee: I really like this area because it doesn't get extremely hot like some areas in the summertime but it also doesn't get extremely cold in the winter especially up north. And that's really nice with the livestock because areas like that get extremely low temperatures or extremely heavy snowfall, you've got another set of challenges with livestock.

[00:33:46]

Sometimes you have to keep them all in a barn or you have issues like the ranchers out in North Dakota right now, with the snow storms that have just come down through there. It's dumped feet of snow on the ground up there in North Dakota and so they're having to dig out their cattle out of the snow.

[00:34:05]

And obviously, they're experiencing losses up there whereas, here in the southeast, even though we might have some extremely heavy and sometimes insanely heavy rainfall at times, and mud to deal with, we don't really have the types of weather extremes that you see in a lot of places. And especially during the summer, our higher amounts of rainfall can be really helpful [INAUDIBLE] keep some pasture growing for much longer.

[00:34:34]

Whereas, especially out Vespers, [INAUDIBLE], come summer, a lot of times, all the grasses die out and then you got to find hay or you got to buy feed from some other state and ship it in. And that has a lot of challenges there because a lot of farmers are relying on what's growing on their property to feed their animals.

[00:34:59]

If you're having to buy feed, [INAUDIBLE] that's definitely out of your pocket. That's that much less profit that you're going to be getting that year.

>> Louanne Hoverman: From what it sounds like, they're not acclimated to that feed as they've been in the past.

>> James Ferebee: Exactly, you've got to be able to slowly acclimate them to it.

[00:35:23]

However, now hay, hay is essentially dried grass so it's usually not an issue to go from pasture to hay. If you're going from hay to pasture, you do need to move it a little bit slower because fresh grass has a lot more liquid and so you can mess with it a little bit, but usually that's not much of an issue.

[00:35:47]

But yeah, that can definitely be [INAUDIBLE].

>> Louanne Hoverman: You mentioned distribution, you're feeder [INAUDIBLE] and you also said about chickens were slaughtered, right?

>> James Ferebee: Correct.

>> Louanne Hoverman: Yeah.

>> James Ferebee: Yes, ma'am.

>> Louanne Hoverman: Where do you send them?

>> James Ferebee: Well, I use Williamsburg packing company. They're a small independent butcher down in Kingstree, South Carolina.

[00:36:18]

And they handle all of all of my butchering for my poultry, pork, and lamb. So I take the last right down there for processing. And they slaughter, and package, and freeze the meat for me, and then I go back down there and pick it back up and sell it retail here out of my freezers.

[00:36:41]

So I'm currently a vendor at several local farmer's markets, in addition to the Catawba fresh market, which, I mentioned earlier, is an online farmer's market. And then the remainder of my products are sold here at the farm, I have customers come here to the farm to pick up their meat.

[00:37:01]

>> Louanne Hoverman: Which two farmer's markets do you also sell at?

>> James Ferebee: Right now, I'm a vendor at the Mathews Community Farmer's Market, which is open year round every Saturday morning. I'm also vendor at the Old Town Rock Hill Farmer's Market which is the seasonal summer farmer's market that is in operation on Thursday evenings throughout the summer.

[00:37:23]

>> Louanne Hoverman: And you also sell wool and yarn from your sheep?

>> James Ferebee: I do, so a lot of the wool is sold to hand spinners who will process the wool themselves, they'll wash it, and cart it, and spin it, and do all that. And then the remainder of the wool from each shearing day, I send it up to a fiber mill in North Carolina and they spin it into yarn for me and send the yarn back.

[00:37:53]

And then I can sell the yarn at my farmer's market booths or on my website as well to people who like to knit or crochet, or use a yarn to make clothes and such.

>> Louanne Hoverman: Have you ever had somebody make you a sweater or something from their-

>> James Ferebee: I've not a sweater although that would be really nice.

[00:38:12]

I do have a pair of socks and a hat that were knitted from wool from a sheep. So my grandmother knitted the hat for me, and my sister, who also knits, she knitted the socks to barter for more yarn for herself. So I do have several items that are made from the wool from my sheep, so certainly very warm and comfortable.

[00:38:46]

>> Louanne Hoverman: Now, you mentioned you take the livestock to the processing plant. Do you shear the sheep yourself?

>> James Ferebee: I do shear the sheep myself. So finding a sheep shearer in the eastern part of North America, in particular, can be difficult, [COUGH] since raising sheep is not quite as common as it is out west.

[00:39:08]

Out west, where there are flocks of thousands upon thousands of sheep, they have a lot of sheep shearers out there. Whereas here in the east, it can be difficult and also hard to get into a sheep shearer's schedule. And so I was interested in learning myself, and so I mostly self taught myself how to shear sheep.

[00:39:29]

I've visited several other farms that raise sheep and watched and helped with their shearing before I started with mine, and so I do, I shear my sheep myself. I do it all by hand with blade sheers each year. Although, as the flat grows, I may be looking at upgrading to some electric sheep shears in the future.

[00:39:56]

So yeah, I do. Currently, we're getting ready to have our sheep shearing day this year next month, where we usually allow people to come out and visit the farm and watch the sheep being And it's a really neat educational opportunity for a lot of people who don't get to have experiences with animals or sheep or farms, so yeah.

[00:40:25]

>> Louanne Hoverman: Do you have any issues selling your meat across state lines or there are any issues like initially?

>> James Ferebee: Not really. So in order to sell meat across state lines, it must be processed under USDA inspection. So we start packing is the only independent USDA poultry processor in the southeast.

[00:40:48]

They're also the only butcher in the Carolinas that is Animal Welfare approved. And so since I've raised my livestock naturally, on pasture, and humanely. And so I don't want all of that work to be destroyed whenever they are being harvested [INAUDIBLE]. By not making sure it's humane. So it's very important to me to use an animal welfare [INAUDIBLE].

[00:41:22]

#VALUE!#VALUE!#VALUE!

[00:41:48]

So I haven't had any issues with that since I've been using Williamsburg Packing since I started. So, yeah, that's not really been an issue for me.

>> Louanne Hoverman: Okay. Yeah, I had read that Williamsburg Packing is quite popular among small to medium sized farms.

>> James Ferebee: It is, and a lot of that is because they're the only one.

[00:42:10]

You know, the shift in American agriculture from small family farms to large industrial production has largely eliminated small local independent meat packers. Because most of the big industrial companies like Tyson [INAUDIBLE] based on the process, they control the butchers, they control the packers, they control the people who are selling it and sending it straight to the grocery stores.

[00:42:57]

So, small all independent farmers like me, you know, we can't send our animals to their facilities because they are completely integrated [INAUDIBLE] and they don't allow any outside livestock coming in. And so, Williamsburg Packing is one of the only independent poultry processors left in the region. And so they actually have people coming as far away as Georgia and Alabama to have their poultry processed there.

[00:43:34]

Now with larger livestock, like pork, goats, sheep, beef, there's a lot more of those butchers around, both state in the USDA and custom-inspected. So that's a lot easier to find. However, most of them aren't certified humane like Williamsburg Packing is. But yeah they're definitely in high demand since they were in the last independent butchers in the area so.

[00:44:06]

>> Louanne Hoverman: What do you think is the best way to get your products to consumers? Like if you could do anything to get them.

>> James Ferebee: Well, I'm currently working with a couple of restaurants about it potentially getting some of my products in their menus. So obviously, that's a direct rep to customers.

[00:44:29]

We're about ten minutes from downtown Rockhill. So we have, many of our customers, you know just drive right out to the farm and they purchase their products here. A lot of times they will, you know come out once a month or so and stock up. And then we've got the farmers markets, which are also popular locations for, you know, customers to shop, they can buy our products directly there.

[00:44:55]

If I could do anything, I mean, there's not really any way a small producer can get in with a grocery store, say Walmart or Harris Teeter or Kroger. They want to have consistent products in all of their stores. Whereas across the entire continent, that's not even something that small producers should even consider trying to do because there's no way that you could meet that demand.

[00:45:21]

>> Louanne Hoverman: Plus the sheer volume [CROSSTALK]

>> James Ferebee: Exactly, the sheer volume with the large stores like that, their purchasing wholesale, they're gonna pay as little as they can so that we they can you know, profit themselves. Whereas small producers, every penny on the dollar counts for a small producer, you know, in order to stay in business.

[00:45:45]

So, a small producer like me, you know, as far as a retail location, a lot of us have on farm stores. So right now I don't currently have a farm store, I have visits by appointment only right now. For when customers are coming to pick up their meats.

[00:46:05]

But a lot of farms have their own farm stores. Some others will sell to specialty grocery stores. For example, The Peach Stand in Rockhill is a specialty type grocery store that is owned by Springs Farm, which focuses mostly on peaches and vegetable farming. But they also sell lots of other products grown by local farmers.

[00:46:29]

They sell meats, they sell cheeses, jams and jellies, and lots of different stuff. So you know, that's a very good way for a smaller independent producer to get their product out there. And similar to that a lot of farms have their own farm stores you know will carry products from other similar small independent producers so that way, you can have a variety of products into one store.

[00:46:58]

Because frankly, most people don't want to go to half a dozen stores just to get finish their grocery list. They wanna get their meat, their cheese, their milk, their veggies all in one area. And so if multiple farmers work together and carry each other's products in their farm stores.

[00:47:15]

You know, that way the customers, it makes it easier on the customers and makes customers more likely to continue purchasing those products because it's easy. They want to do what's convenient. And so those are just a number of ways to get the products out there.

>> Louanne Hoverman: Are there any cooperative organizations like with other farmers?

[00:47:51]

>> James Ferebee: Sure, The Gotobo Fresh Market is very similar in that sense. It's sorta like an online farmer's market where farmers list their products and can be purchased by customers online, and then The Gotobo Fresh Market's volunteers delivers all the products to the customers. But The Gotobo Fresh Market is run by the Gotobo Farm and Food Coalition, which is a farm co-op and advocacy group in the upstate of South Carolina around here.

[00:48:25]

And so their mission is to support small local farmers and help those farmers get their products to consumers. And so they, through the Catawba fresh market, they also do lots of wholesale orders to some customers that buy in bulk. And so sometimes they'll get products from multiple different farmers who are members of the Catawba Farmer Food Coalition.

[00:48:59]

But yeah, there's that. There are some others in the area, that's the first one on my mind right there. Can't think of any other ones at the moment, but there are several others that are out of state.

>> Louanne Hoverman: What kind of support have been available through the government, whether it be local or state?

[00:49:25]

>> James Ferebee: Sure, the State of South Carolina has a certified South Carolina program whose goal is to encourage consumers to buy local products. And so they have their website, the CertifiedSouthCarolinaGrown.com, where customers can find farms that are from South Carolina and where you can purchase the products. And then they also provide marketing materials to the farmers in South Carolina, so you can see the little certified South Carolina logo.

[00:50:02]

You know that those blueberries weren't grown in California, they were grown right here in state. Obviously that's a little bit larger than the more local foodshed of a city or a subregion, but that's a neat way that they help with that. On the federal level the American Land Board helps with a lot of marketing for lamb products for US producers of lamb and sheep.

[00:50:32]

And then the federal government also does have some financial assistance that they have. They have loans and grants that they have available occasionally for some young and beginning farmers. Sometimes they have assistance if there's unusual weather events, natural disasters, a lot of times they will provide assistance for farmers who are affected by those.

[00:51:01]

But yeah, mostly that's it. Occasionally there's some other programs that, they do as well, but I can't think of anything else.

>> Louanne Hoverman: Okay, what's an aspect of farming that really people wouldn't consider or is maybe misunderstood by the public? Cuz just throughout talking to you, I've learned that grazing in a pasture helps sort of the ecosystem with all the critters in there.

[00:51:37]

And by moving around they don't need antibiotics because they don't get sick as often, and your breed of sheep and more resistant to parasites, which is kind of a problem in this area. So what other things will people really never think of that is either a problem or benefit, anything really related to farming?

[00:52:02]

>> James Ferebee: Well, I mean, obviously, weather can affect farming quite a lot. Not so much with livestock, but with crops especially, the weather can make or break an entire year for a crop farmer in particular.

>> Louanne Hoverman: Was there anything that really surprised you when you started farming?

>> James Ferebee: Well, I was surprised, I had always grown up visiting farms, around farms.

[00:52:34]

My great uncle has a farm up in Virginia, and so I was always really familiar with farming. But especially when I was starting to sell products and that sort of thing, I was really surprised at how agriculturally illiterate the majority of the population is. Most people, especially in cities, aren't aware of where the food comes from.

[00:53:05]

I think one time, before I started selling the products, we butchered some of our own turkeys. And I think my mom posted about it on Facebook, and she had some comments asking, that's so terrible. Why are you killing your turkeys when you can just go get turkey from the grocery store instead of having to kill an animal?

[00:53:25]

Because people weren't aware that the meat at the grocery store doesn't just appear there magically, it comes from somewhere. So would I rather purchase this meat at the grocery store from an animal who knows how well it's treated or this turkey that I raised from the chick, took care of and then finally slaughtered?

[00:53:47]

#VALUE!#VALUE!#VALUE!

[00:54:18]

So they look very similar. But getting a sheep confused for a donkey, or a zebra, or a cow. It's amazing how little most people know about farming.

>> Louanne Hoverman: And here I thought it was bad that people didn't know that pickles were cucumbers originally.

>> James Ferebee: Well, and apparently there was a Gallop poll, 7% of the American population believes that chocolate milk comes from brown cows.

[00:54:47]

And that sounds small, but there are over 300 million people in the United States. So 7 out of every 100, that's a good bit of math to do in your head right there, but that's gonna be at least 20-

>> Louanne Hoverman: Well, 10%-

>> James Ferebee: 21,000, no.

>> Louanne Hoverman: No, 21 million.

[00:55:11]

>> James Ferebee: Yeah, that's right, 21 million, 21 million people in the United States.

>> Louanne Hoverman: Because 10% would be 30-

>> James Ferebee: Yep, that's right, I was thinking in terms of 3 million. But, yeah, it's [INAUDIBLE] came from, 100 years ago those people had a garden in the backyard. Everybody [INAUDIBLE] or [INAUDIBLE] morning or go outside and harvest some you know fresh vegetables and herbs to use for dinner.

[00:55:47]

Whereas today in our commercialized society people purchase their food, and often times they don't even purchase vegetables or meat. They purchase pre-prepared food, which sometimes aren't even recognizable as the ingredient ingredients that they're made from, and so people are completely unaware. They're not in touch with where their food comes from and what it takes to get it from a farm to the plate.

[00:56:18]

So that's probably the biggest thing that I was amazed by.

>> James Ferebee: I even had one gentleman ask me if male goats produced milk. Which anybody who passed high school biology should be well aware how mammals work. They female goat produces milk, the reason that any mammal produces milk is to feed their babies.

[00:56:47]

And dairying was even bred specifically to produce way more milk than their babies needs so we can drink it ourselves. That's how dairying works. I was completely floored. It's amazing how little people know about that and how ignorant the majority of the American population is about food, so.

[00:57:14]

>> Louanne Hoverman: One last question, where do you see your farm in the future?

>> James Ferebee: Well, my goal right now is I'm working on increasing my flock of sheep. There's an enormous demand for lamb in the area, especially organically raised grass-fed lamb. A lot of that is do, lamb in general in the past anyway has not been in super high demand in the American population in general.

[00:57:44]

It's just most people aren't familiar with it. You're familiar with beef, beef, pork, and chicken. And then turkey for Thanksgiving. But among the younger generation, millennial's in particular, are a lot more adventurous in their tastes. We like to try new foods from other cultures and that sort of thing.

[00:58:06]

And then also, in large cities like Charlotte or Columbia, they have large populations of immigrants and people from other cultures. And lamb, for example, is extremely popular in areas like the Middle East or the Mediterranean region, like Greece or Italy. Also people who come from the Caribbean or South East Asia, lamb plays a very large part in the traditional diets of those regions.

[00:58:42]

And also for people who have moved here from Great Britain. In Great Britain lamb is also a very popular meat. And so because in the larger cities there's a lot of people from other parts of the world, there's a huge demand for lamb. And also just the growing demand for lamb in the American population.

[00:59:02]

I've been working to increase my flock try to meet that demand, although I have come anywhere close. So my goal is to first of all continue to increase my production to meet some to those demands. And also I'd like to partner with some local chef-driven restaurants to get some of my products in the restaurants.

[00:59:25]

Maybe partner with a specialty grocery store type thing. And eventually I'd love to open up my own farm store as well to market my products directly out of there. And so my goal is to, I'd like to grow the farm to the point where it is self-sustainable and providing a full salary.

[00:59:47]

So that way I can do it full time, so yeah.

[tabby title='Captioned Audio'] [tabbyending]

[soliloquy id='174']

Tommy Barbee was a 58-year-old man at the time of interview, which took place at Barbee Farms in Concord, North Carolina. He was born in Concord, North Carolina in 1960. He was educated in Concord and is employed as a farmer.

Tommy Barbee discusses the changes he has witnessed on his family’s farm over the course of his lifetime. He recounts assisting his grandparents and parents on the farm growing up in the 1960s and 1970s as well as his father’s focus on pork production. He explains why he did not originally want his son Brent to become a fulltime farmer but is now pleased with the decision. Mr. Barbee describes Brent’s initiatives and changes to the farm’s operation, bringing all 70 acres into full production.

[tabby title='Tape Log']

Time	Subject
0:00:07	Beginning
0:00:30	History of the farm
0:01:07	Grandparents were fulltime farmers
0:02:44	There used to be many farms in the area
0:04:04	Brent decided to become a fulltime farmer
0:05:04	Transition on the farm over Barbee's life
0:05:23	Father focused on pork production
0:07:50	Teaching the value of money
0:10:45	Brent wanted to be a fulltime farmer
0:12:19	Why Barbee did not want Brent to be a farmer
0:14:55	Brent's expansion of the farm operation
0:17:39	Some older farmers not investing in Food Safety Modernization Act (FSMA)
0:19:01	Farm world as competition, but also work together
0:20:10	New crops brought in by Brent
0:21:38	The hungry months
0:23:02	Brent's first investment (greenhouse)
0:25:25	H-2A Temporary Agricultural Workers
0:27:41	Barbee's reaction to the H-2A program
0:29:56	Society is far removed from its food source
0:30:23	Changes in distribution on the farm
0:32:22	Wholesaling
0:34:24	Farming is a guessing game
0:36:02	Davidson Farmers' Market
0:38:24	Widening of I-85
0:41:26	Reunited farm under one identity
0:44:09	Piedmont Culinary Guild
0:44:30	Lowes Food CSA - Carolina Crate
0:47:30	Closing

[tabby title="Transcript"]

[00:00:10]

>> Sarah: Okay, today is March 5th, 2019. We are at Barbie Farms in Concord, North Carolina. My name is Sarah Wildes and I am interviewing Tommy Barbie. So Tommy, this is a centennial farm. Could you tell us a little bit about the history of the farm?

>> Tommy: l can tell you back as far as l can remember.

[00:00:35]

>> Sarah: Okay.

>> Tommy: l remember my grandparents. l'm actually the fifth generation of our family on this farm. l remember working with and around my grandparents on my mother's side.

>> Sarah: Okay.

>> Tommy: Of course, as a child, and beyond, at the earliest that I can remember, my grandfather and grandmother on my mother's side never had public jobs.

[00:01:17]

>> Tommy: They made their living from this very same farm that we're on now. Basically, with three or four milk cows, my granddaddy milked cows, my grandmother churned butter. They sold whole milk and basically peddled what they produced here on the farm. During the summertime they grew multiple fruits and vegetables, mostly vegetables.

[00:01:51]

At that time there was not a lot of fruits. Of course, there was an apple tree here or there, but as far as for the purpose of creating income, fruits were not a thing then.

>> Sarah: About what time period was this?

>> Tommy: We're talking, well, I was born in 1960 so we're talking, of course, I can remember back to seven, eight years old, so late, let's say mid to late 60s, in that timeframe.

[00:02:20]

I also remember very vaguely a small amount of cotton being grown on this farm, which was all handpicked. It was all family. There weren't a large amount of employees. Of course, at that stage in this area there were lots of farms around. And most everybody was kin, so when everybody kinda lent a hand in when you were harvesting cotton or hoeing cotton, or doing whatever, all the neighbors showed up which was all the kin people.

[00:03:05]

And when everybody showed up, my grandmother fed everybody. They pretty much raised their own beef and pork, and chickens. Always had laying hens to produce eggs. And that was another one of the commodities that they peddled. And actually, that grandfather that I'm talking about was the last generation before my son who was our actually farm manager now.

[00:03:37]

He was the last generation to solely depend on this farm for income. My dad and mother both worked public work, full time jobs for over 30 years. Myself and my wife both worked public work for over 30 years and our son, Brent, basically decided that,

>> Tommy: Farm life was where he wanted to create his income.

[00:04:15]

So after lots of begging from his mother and I to not do that, he basically went to NC State and wasted two years of my money and two years of his time and come home and said, I'm gonna farm for a living, so.

>> Sarah: [LAUGH]

>> Tommy: Was that a bad decision?

[00:04:37]

It is not, it was not. He seems to be comfortable most of the time now. You gotta go in it knowing that it's not a lucrative way to make a living,

>> Tommy: So you have to set your standards to that, so.

>> Sarah: Live within your means?

>> Tommy: Within your means, absolutely.

[00:05:02]

But to get back to the history side of it, and that was kind of a brief overview, within my lifetime, this farm has transitioned from three or four milk cows, the butters, the eggs, the vegetables during the summer. There again, when my dad kind of took the farm over, we went into pretty heavy pork production.

[00:05:33]

We had about 50,

>> Tommy: Farrowing mothers, farrowing sows. And we raised pigs to what was then known as top hogs, which is butcher size pigs. They went to market. And during, I guess, let's say from early 70s, early to mid-70s through probably the mid-80s, that was our main crop.

[00:06:24]

And when we were growing the pigs, of course, we were growing everything that they ate. We were growing wheat, barley, corn, soy beans. We made our own feed, ground our own feed. So all of the inputs were still pretty much, we were still pretty much self-contained. Then in the, I guess, the mid-80s, early to mid-80s when I chose not to farm for a living.

[00:06:54]

Of course, this is always, when you don't farm for a living, but you still farm you've got two jobs, so to speak. When I chose to not farm for a living and went to vocational school, went to work for a living. And we kinda downsized the pork production part of it.

[00:07:24]

We went from raising top hogs or slaughter hogs to feeder pigs, which narrows the window of amount of time that an animal's on your farm. And then they go to another farm and they're grown from the 40 to 50 pound feeder pig into a market size pig. And then, and during this whole time, even back to I can remember with my grandfather, during the summer, fruits, fruit, vegetables, not fruits, vegetables, and I say not fruits because we did a lot of melons.

[00:08:06]

So yes, fruits and vegetables.

>> Sarah: More local fruits, not-

>> Tommy: Yes.

>> Sarah: Fruits from farther away.

>> Tommy: Right right, that was the way I made money. I did not have a job when I was in high school, but I was told at a very young age an allowance was not something I knew anything about.

[00:08:30]

>> Sarah: Mm-hm.

>> Tommy: That was not. My allowance was in the garden, in the field. That was, if I wanted something then there is your money then go get it, turn it into money and so I value that. You don't know how much I value that and I value that enough to pretty much pass it onto my son.

[00:08:55]

When the allowance question came up, of course, he goes to school and learns about kids getting an allowance.

>> Sarah: [LAUGH]

>> Tommy: So we pretty much had that same conversation that my dad and I had, about okay, there's your allowance, lets see what you do with it.

>> Sarah: Yeah.

[00:09:11]

>> Tommy: And so that's part of history that I'm glad has not changed. I now have a five and a half year old, he'll be six in August, grandson which is the seventh generation.

>> Sarah: Mm-hm.

>> Tommy: On this farm [COUGH] and we are in the process of teaching him those same values.

[00:09:36]

>> Sarah: Yeah.

>> Tommy: And it's, I spoke of years ago when this was a large agricultural area.

>> Sarah: Mm-hm.

>> Tommy: If you saw driving in here you probably didn't see a whole lot of farms around here, now.

>> Tommy: It's not a farming area anymore. But this, it's home to us.

[00:10:10]

>> Sarah: Of course.

>> Tommy: And it's definitely not something that we're ashamed of. No reason to be. We're actually proud that we have been able to hold on. But I think being able to hold on has come through values taught to us by generations before us. So living within your means so to speak.

[00:10:39]

And knowing what those means are.

>> Sarah: Mm-hm.

>> Tommy: But then I guess in the [NOISE] as Brent my son started to grow and he got more interested in of course making money so we started expanding the vegetable side of the operation, basically has it was basically giving to him to say okay we got 70 acres here, how much acreage do you want for vegetables and then the rest of it?

[00:11:18]

We still grew corn and soy beans and traditional row crops. And as the years progressed and he got older, the vegetables acreage went from two acres to five acres to ten acres to, and now we're totally at, for last six years I guess it is seven years. Maybe even eight years.

[00:11:51]

We've been totally at the same total 70 acres. There is nothing but fruits and vegetables so that's kind of the life line sort of speak, I guess it's as I remember it and again I was born and raised here, and been here for 58 and two third years now so.

[00:12:18]

>> Sarah: All right just wanna go back for a quick, you said Brent went to NC State?

>> Tommy: He did.

>> Sarah: Why did you not want him to pursue farming full time?

>> Tommy: I wanted him to be able to make an amount of money that was, that would give him, him and his family a comfortable living.

[00:12:44]

>> Sarah: Mm-hm.

>> Tommy: Because I knew the money's just not in, especially a small farm. It's just not there. I mean, and it's kinda sad and there again, it's not something I'm proud of, but it's not something I'm gonna hide either. When our farm manager is on the poverty level line.

[00:13:09]

But it's a fact of life, I'm sorry. And that's what I did not want him to endure, I wanted him to, I had, I had as a young adult growing into an aged adult let's say. I had good jobs. I had technical skills. I had good jobs. I had good paying jobs.

[00:13:32]

Still lived within my means. And was through the generations have been basically handed this farm. So I've never wanted for anything that I needed. Of course we eat very well, because we eat what we produced 90% of. I love to hunt. We eat a lot of venison. So that's just kind of our life style.

[00:14:11]

And there again it's not something that I'm ashamed of.

>> Sarah: No reason.

>> Tommy: At all.

>> Sarah: You got your land, you got your food.

>> Tommy: I do, I do, and I guess being able to pass that tradition along and for it to actually stick. Not pushing it the envelope, so to speak, cuz like I say, I begged him not to do it because

[00:14:41]

>> Tommy: It can be very tough, very tough. Just one of my goals in life that I failed at. But did I fail?

>> Sarah: I don't think you did.

>> Sarah: So you, so Brent obviously has really expanded the operation?

>> Tommy: Without a doubt, yes. He has gone, the building that we're in now was Brent's first major project.

[00:15:12]

And it was due to, I don't know how familiar you are with FSMA, food safety modernization act. It was just enacted during the Obama administration.

>> Sarah: Mm-hm.

>> Tommy: And it was actually farmer driven, let's say American farmer driven driven because in the past, fruits and vegetables that came from abroad, from anywhere other than United States were not as-

[00:15:55]

>> Sarah: Controlled.

>> Tommy: Controlled, they didn't go through the inspections that our-

>> Sarah: Okay.

>> Tommy: Domestic food went through and that to me, that's a problem. You know, our food source needs to be secure, it needs to be all treated alike. But there were no stringent government regulations on, I mean, every state is different.

[00:16:27]

And every municipality had their different little flukes.

>> Sarah: Mm-hm.

>> Tommy: So this is actually a national set of rules so to speak.

>> Sarah: Okay.

>> Tommy: And Brent had enough foresight

>> Tommy: To be able to look ahead and say, okay this feels the thing is coming because when you're in that and to sure you gotta keep watching what's in the works, he saw that coming and as a matter of fact, we went under regulation last year.

[00:17:09]

Which we were, we're four years into this building so,

>> Tommy: And are doing, what they, the county has actually held training seminars at our farm to show people how it's done right which were pretty proud of.

>> Sarah: Yeah.

>> Tommy: When it's a brand new situation, there are a lot of farmers, fruit and vegetable farmers, my age that are basically sticking their head in the sand and saying, you know, and there again back to living within your means.

[00:17:58]

If I were within less than ten years of retiring and I was in this not having a somebody that's coming in behind me on this. I daresay for a fruit and vegetable farm our size that was starting with nothing, building-wise, you could tie up a couple of million dollars.

[00:18:24]

>> Sarah: Yeah.

>> Tommy: There's not a couple of million dollars in a lifetime profit in a farm this size. It's just not there.

>> Sarah: Especially if you're looking to retire. You want to put that investment to it.

>> Tommy: Right, If I was within ten years of retirement, it would be an absolute It would be ludicrous so and i can't get there

[00:18:53]

>> Tommy: But then i actually look into

>> Tommy: These are the it i'm gonna say compete and i don't want you to look think that it's a competition world.

>> Tommy: The farm world is very, yes it is competition. Just like when you were at Farmers' Market on Saturday.

>> Sarah: Yeah, of course.

[00:19:16]

>> Tommy: I've got one goal when I go up there, it's to make a living.

>> Sarah: Of course.

>> Tommy: And if I'm not selling something. And a guy across from me is selling and something, and I need to figure out why. So yes, it is a competition. But it's a very friendly competition, and I don't if know how much you're around and I mean I'm talking to farmers.

[00:19:42]

We're all in the same boat, so a rivalry it's not there. But yes, there is, and here again anything that doesn't have a little bit of friendly-

>> Sarah: A little friendly competition.

>> Tommy: Competition, it doesn't hurt anything.

>> Sarah: No.

>> Tommy: So.

>> Sarah: So what type of crops that Brent bring in and you mentioned that you grew corns, soybeans, melons, sort of the standard local

>> Tommy: Right.

[00:20:19]

>> Sarah: To be sort of bring in.

>> Tommy: Right now, in mid summer, and I think you can check our website, we have an our website, it kinda breaks things down.

>> Sarah: I saw that list.

>> Tommy: And everything that's on that list is grown right here.

>> Sarah: That's an impressive list.

[00:20:38]

>> Tommy: It's at our peak in mid-summer, at the Davidson Farmers Market that you were at, we will have over 45 different items on the table at one time.

>> Tommy: And I invite you to come back, if you're around sometime

>> Tommy: Let's say July, August time frame. And actually when we start into,

[00:21:11]

>> Tommy: Right around Labor Day in the September time frame. When we still got all of our summer crops, we're starting to get back into our fall. Greens, that's when we get,

>> Tommy: We're almost like a grocery store. You have lots of options. And this time of year, I mean right now from mid February [COUGH], excuse me, through,

[00:21:49]

>> Tommy: Probably mid April, which is when we start, usually mid April, mid to late April's when we start picking strawberries. And of course everybody loves strawberries. But those are our right now are what we call our hungry months. Because our storage crops. We're starting to sell down on everything that we grew last year.

[00:22:10]

That's in storage.

>> Sarah: Mm-hm.

>> Tommy: I mean, you can't grow anything. You can a little bit.

>> Sarah: Yeah.

>> Tommy: We've got a little bit of greenhouse production but there's not a lot going on outside cropwise right now. So I don't know if you know rosemary plants.

>> Sarah: Yes.

[00:22:31]

>> Tommy: Things like that, when you start seeing rosemary plants, we're money.

>> Sarah: Gotcha.

>> Tommy: So, there again, those rosemary plants were started in August. We didn't just all of a sudden say, hey, we need something for income. This is, there again, something that's come in over the years knowing that February, March, and April we're struggling for money so we've got to have something to sell.

[00:22:58]

We're going to get creative.

>> Sarah: Yeah, no.

>> Tommy: So.

>> Sarah: When did the greenhouse go out?

>> Tommy: That was, it's kind of an interesting story. When Brent was in

>> Tommy: A senior in high school.

>> Tommy: I guess that was his first major investment. That greenhouse, when it was put up,

[00:23:30]

>> Tommy: The 90s. Late 90s.

>> Tommy: Brent had this vision. He went to one of the classes that Cabarrus Extension Service does. And the girl was talking about lown greenhouse for makers will bring came away with a from that same and all with may dollar visions in his hay and that greenhouse was designed For greenhouse tomatoes.

[00:24:10]

That was about a $70,000 investment. And I mean, a kid coming out of high school ain't got $70,000, I'm sorry.

>> Sarah: Yeah.

>> Tommy: I didn't have enough confidence in him to think that it would-

>> Sarah: Work.

>> Tommy: Work. I offered him a small amount of the money but I told him, I said I will not-

[00:24:33]

>> Sarah: Yeah

>> Tommy: Invest in the whole thing. And my dad told him, said, if you wanna build it, I'll loan you the money, I'll give you ten years to pay it back. And in three years time he was paid back.

>> Sarah: Wow.

>> Tommy: So, is it a million dollar investment?

[00:24:54]

No, it's not.

>> Sarah: It's still a big one.

>> Tommy: It is and we'll go in there when we get finished and I'll show they're actually working tomatoes in there now. We're actually have been picking tomatoes out of there since right around Thanksgiving or so. And we will pick tomatoes out of there until we start picking tomatoes outside first of June.

[00:25:16]

So-

>> Sarah: Year-round tomatoes.

>> Tommy: Pretty much we do have year-round tomatoes and I don't know if you noticed the Mexican guys. That's a big step that Brent has taken as far as labor. The labor force in this area does not exist. We have two guys that work for us year round full-time.

[00:25:44]

I guess it was six years ago, Brent started utilizing a government program H2A labor force. Where we got the immigrant people up here,

>> Tommy: We started out the first year, and I'm pretty sure it was six years ago. We started out the first year with four guys. And I mean we go through North Carolina Grower's Association.

[00:26:13]

>> Tommy: We basically tell them how many people you need for what time frame, and all of the-

>> Sarah: Applicants.

>> Tommy: All of that goes through their system. That's basically all they do is they're a lifeline through to this government program.

>> Tommy: The first year we started out with four.

[00:26:40]

I think it was two years later we increased to six.

>> Tommy: The following year we increased to eight. And now, I think it's March 31st, it's not been about three weeks. And last year was the first year we had 12 as the amount of guys that we have come up.

[00:27:06]

The first four that we've got that we had are still with us today, and we have been extremely lucky.

>> Tommy: That is probably the,

>> Tommy: Best decision. And there again, that was all on Brent, because that was not a comfortable decision for me to make. The reason being, if you come to the farmer's market on Saturday morning, you come to buy local product.

[00:27:47]

>> Sarah: Yeah.

>> Tommy: My thought then at that time was okay, if I'm one of my customers and I want you to buy a local product. Why should you not want me to use a local labor force? And I would if it were available, but it's not.

>> Sarah: It's not like you didn't try then.

[00:28:16]

>> Tommy: Absolutely, but that was my fear in going into the program. Going back I would not change a thing ever. No way, these guys are like family to us. And they get that way in a very short period of time. They're here for one reason, that's to make money.

[00:28:40]

The only way they can make money is to work and satisfy but we do, quality standards, you show them one time what you're looking for.

>> Tommy: That's done. It is just been a super win-win situation.

>> Sarah: Okay.

>> Tommy: And I think, I guess if there were one thing that I wish the American consumer,

[00:29:15]

>> Tommy: Would get comfortable with, is,

>> Tommy: How much work there is, how much hand labor there is, to produce some food. I've heard people say, we're three days away from starving to death. And there are people in this world that sadly enough are, maybe not three days. Because we could all do without food for three days.

[00:29:48]

>> Sarah: Yeah.

>> Tommy: But so as a society we are so far removed from our food source, it scares me. And I say we,

>> Tommy: I'm really not.

>> Sarah: Yeah.

>> Tommy: But as an American.

>> Sarah: As-

>> Tommy: As American people, I think we are very, very far removed from our food solution, and like I say it's sad to me.

[00:30:18]

>> Sarah: Yeah, I agree.

>> Sarah: Going off that, I see on your website that Brent has not only pushed, how much you're growing and what you're growing, but how much you're distributing.

>> Tommy: Yes.

>> Sarah: You have your farmers day and you also go to the Davidson Farmer's market. But you also wholesale to-

[00:30:39]

>> Tommy: Quite a few people. I would say now when Brent was in high school and through college,

>> Tommy: Probably 90% of our sales were retail sales. We did eight different farmers' markets a week. We were kinda like nomads. I mean we run around with tents on the back of the truck.

[00:31:04]

And of course, we had a different location every day. Actually, we had two different days that we had two markets. We didn't do a market on Sunday, but we were actually doing eight markets a week. And that was when it really got to the point to where we were doing a whole lot more selling than we were farming.

[00:31:32]

And farming started taken,

>> Tommy: I don't know what the word I'm looking for. We started suffering on our farming end because we were concentrating way too much effort on the distribution end and we weren't paying enough attention to the actual growing. Well guess what, if you don't pay attention to growing, distribution is not a problem cuz you don't have anything to sell.

[00:31:59]

>> Sarah: Yeah.

>> Tommy: So we started suffering and we saw it in plenty of time to be able to correct ourselves. And then, the increase in the number of gas that we get is directly proportional to the increase in the amount of crops that we're moving. The downside of it is when you're moving stuff through a retail market,

[00:32:29]

>> Tommy: All of the money's coming straight back to the farm. Well, when you're moving stuff through the wholesale channels, the amount of money that's actually coming back to the farm per product is about half. You're moving in greater volumes, I mean, we got trailers backing up here now, as opposed to the little trailer that we were in on Saturday morning.

[00:32:54]

#VALUE!#VALUE!#VALUE!

>> Tommy: You've kinda got to marry the two together. You've got to get A,

>> Tommy: Reasonable amount of retail and I like dealing with,

>> Tommy: People that I'm feeding. I like to give input back and the only way I can do that is meet you face to face and look in your eyes and tell me what you like, what you don't like.

[00:33:32]

What can I do to fix this? Is this a variety of tomato you like, or is this a variety of tomato you like? Input coming back here in because my end goal is to satisfy you as a customer. That's the only way I'd get you back, that's the way I make a living.

[00:33:48]

So, all of the wholesale market dealing with the hairs tiders and the Lowes foods, and the bigger outlets, I don't get that satisfaction.

>> Sarah: Yeah.

>> Tommy: But it pays the bills. I like for the lights to come on when I turn the switch, you know that I mean?

[00:34:11]

So that's what I say, you've got to marry those two and keep,

>> Tommy: And it can be a guessing game.

>> Sarah: Yeah.

>> Tommy: What's gonna be the biggest food fad this coming year?

>> Sarah: Yeah.

>> Tommy: I've got ideas.

>> Sarah: [LAUGH]

>> Tommy: But I don't know, I know what I can grow, I don't know what you're gonna buy.

[00:34:42]

>> Sarah: Yeah.

>> Tommy: So looking into your crystal ball and say, what's the next kale?

>> Sarah: I was gonna say, when did kale become a thing.

>> Tommy: Right, kale, in my childhood, kale was not a thing. Nowadays, kale is a thing, and we're actually starting to see kale tail a little bit.

[00:35:08]

>> Tommy: Is it a fad? Is it here to stay? Normally when you start seeing something trend down a little bit, you get a little bit nervous about it, so what's next? What's the next new thing? And I guess that's the reason we like, a lot of people will ask us what our main crop is on this farm and we like to say it's diversity.

[00:35:37]

>> Tommy: Not putting all your eggs in one basket. What if kale fell off the edge of the Earth and I was a total kale farm? I'd be kind of in a mess then but with it being one of 40-some products, not gonna like it, but big deal. Let's go on to something else, and there again, the Saturday mornings, especially at the Davidson market, and the reason we like that market so well and it's one of the very few in the area.

[00:36:14]

It's a producer only market. Meaning, if you don't grow it, you don't sell it there. Not like the Charlotte Regional Market where it's,

>> Sarah: Your middle man.

>> Tommy: It's a middle man market, that's what it is. It's a trucking Market. So, and at that Davidson Market, and that's the only market, I don't know if I mentioned that, that's the only market that we do now.

[00:36:38]

That's the only off site retail that we do is that one market on Saturday mornings.

>> Tommy: So with that being said,

>> Tommy: And I don't wanna lose that connection, cuz like I say, Saturday morning, that's my vacation day. That's when I go and get to meet people that are enjoying my product and that community is what a farmer needs on Saturday morning after a rough week, I'll tell you that.

[00:37:18]

Because you get beat up all week long. You're working 12, 14, 16 hour days. It's hot and dry and just somebody coming up and saying thank you. I can't put a price on that, a value, it's extremely valuable to me. So,

>> Tommy: And I mean, you don't get that from, when truck backs up here.

[00:37:52]

>> Sarah: Yeah.

>> Tommy: Push a pallet on, sign the invoice.

>> Tommy: Maybe get a check 30 days later, [LAUGH]

>> Sarah: Okay, keeps the lights on so that you-

>> Tommy: It keeps the lights, exactly.

>> Sarah: And then you can go and enjoy the people in Davis.

>> Tommy: Exactly. So,

>> Tommy: And if I'm rambling, feel free to-

[00:38:13]

>> Sarah: Not at all.

>> Tommy: Stop me at any time.

>> Sarah: Not at all, rambling's what we like. [LAUGH]

>> Tommy: It's good, [LAUGH]

>> Sarah: It's all good stuff, it's all good stuff.

>> Sarah: So tell me about, I 85 widening, I read an article from I think it was a few years back they we re trying to put a extension road through your farm.

[00:38:37]

>> Tommy: They did affect our farm.

>> Tommy: I really and truly,

>> Tommy: This is gonna be tough for me to say but it's probably one of the best things that ever happened to our farm in hindsight. When they first started talking about it, they were actually going to break our farm right down the middle.

[00:39:14]

And there again, that was,

>> Tommy: Two years, three years into us starting to go to the Davidson Market, which we were one of the founding farmers of that market. We've been there for, this will be our 11th year.

>> Sarah: So it was about late 2010s?

>> Tommy: That's somewhere in the neighborhood, yeah.

[00:39:40]

>> Tommy: And I made one phone call when we found out that one of the recommended proposals was actually moving PS School Road because it was coming out too close to the exit ramps on A5. [COUGH] It was going to break our farm down in the middle and if that had happened, we won't be here talking today because we could not have maintained what we're doing now.

[00:40:10]

With a road down the middle because we would have crossed that road hundred times of day just would not have been doable. But I made one phone call to a lady in Davidson when I found out about this happening and that there was gonna be a public hearing about it.

[00:40:30]

>> Tommy: And that's where my work ended and when that public hearing was actually at the high school that I grew up, that I graduated from here in Cabarrus County,

>> Tommy: It was phenomenal the amount of people, not just from the Davidson community, but that was a big portion of it but from our customer base all the way around.

[00:40:58]

It was a.

>> Tommy: It was massive, a lot of them spoke and I actually had people from DOT to tell me that that public outcry is what changed the Piskel Road Route. And the proceeds of the property that they took from that, actually let me put this farm back together.

[00:41:40]

>> Tommy: When my grandfather that I spoke of earlier, he and my grandmother had two children, my mother and a son. And of course when they passed away, this farm was split down the middle between those two, between my mother and it's always been all as a unit even up until that point.

[00:42:05]

The heirs of my uncle rented us their half of the farm and it all still stayed in the family. Well, with the proceeds from the 85 deal, we were able to buy that half back to put the 70 acres back together, in one identity, and back the way it was when my grandfather had it.

[00:42:38]

>> Sarah: So that's why the website says it was formed in 2008.

>> Tommy: Yes.

>> Sarah: Gotcha, so it was more like it was reunited together.

>> Tommy: Yes, yes, we didn't go out and buy more land we were basically doing the same thing it just went under one identity. Which was probably one of the things I'm most proud of in my lifetime of being able to.

[00:43:08]

>> Tommy: Keep my grandfather's farm together as opposed to selling off and moving somewhere else. There again this is where I was born and raised, this is home to me.

>> Sarah: Yeah of course.

>> Tommy: So financially I'd be much better off to sell this place and go somewhere else but somewhere else is not home.

[00:43:33]

>> Sarah: I mean you're happy here?

>> Tommy: I'm happy, I ain't going nowhere. [LAUGH] Have you figure that out yet? [LAUGH]

>> Sarah: I mean that's more than some people can say.

>> Tommy: Yeah.

>> Sarah: You happy with your job? You've got your family, you're well fed.

>> Tommy: I am very well fed, my wife's the best cook the world.

[00:43:53]

>> Sarah: [LAUGH]

>> Tommy: But I tell her she's got the best grocery store in the world.

>> Sarah: [LAUGH]

>> Tommy: [LAUGH]

>> Sarah: All right.

>> Sarah: Are you familiar with the Piedmont Culinary Guild?

>> Tommy: Yes, and actually my son does a lot of work with Piedmont Culinary Guild, yeah.

>> Sarah: Yeah, I heard about them from another farmer on Saturday.

[00:44:22]

>> Tommy: Right.

>> Sarah: But it sounds like all of your food is staying here in sort of the Charlotte regional area.

>> Tommy: Pretty much it does, it really does, we actually started last year.

>> Tommy: Don't know if you're familiar with.

>> Tommy: Do you know about CSA?

>> Sarah: Yes.

>> Tommy: Okay, Lowes Foods has a.

[00:44:48]

>> Tommy: CSA program, sorta speak, it's called the Carolina Crate and it's.

>> Tommy: Don't know if it goes I don't think it goes into Virginia, I do know it's in North and South Carolina.

>> Sarah: Okay.

>> Tommy: But it's very regional at the Lowes Foods and it's their version of a CSA, you have a pre packed box every week.

[00:45:12]

Well, Barbie Farms is the one that's packed those boxes last year and Brent just came from a meeting with them yesterday in Winston-Salem we will be packing them again this year. So, and we actually get things from other farmers, we supply a lot of the stuff but we have free reign to source whatever we need to source.

[00:45:35]

>> Sarah: Yeah, to fill an order.

>> Tommy: Yes, it's an 11 week program, they want six to eight different items every week, so in 40 some items you run out of six or eight different ones over 11 week period. [LAUGH] So, and like I say we source that with farmers in our area that do different things than we do.

[00:46:04]

If we like last year we had a very, we had a very mediocre peach crop as far as number wise, we lost a lot to a late freeze last year. So we sourced most of the peaches out of Peaches & Cream out of Wadesboro. Which is at the Davidson Farmers Market, there again he's a farmer that I talked to about every week.

[00:46:26]

Yes we're competitors but I didn't have peaches he had peaches, we need peaches for the Carolina Crate, so you use those resources. So yeah, that's a program we're kind of proud of, my only reason for going there was to say some of our product is going into South Carolina but how far South Carolina from Charlotte, South Charlotte about that far.

[00:46:58]

#VALUE!#VALUE!#VALUE!

>> Sarah: Yeah, not far from here.

>> Tommy: So I don't know of any of our product that's going.

>> Tommy: 100 miles.

>> Sarah: Yeah, further than that.

>> Tommy: If you've got any good resources, if we can get more for it we'll take it there. [LAUGH]

>> Sarah: All right, well I think that might be a good selling point.

[00:47:28]

>> Tommy: Well I hope you've got something you can use out of my.

>> Sarah: Absolutely.

>> Tommy: Babbling.

>> Sarah: Thank you so much.

>> Tommy: You're welcome.

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Elizabeth Anne Dover is a lifetime resident of Concord, North Carolina. Believing she wanted to be a diplomat, Ms. Dover received a degree in medieval Spanish from Davidson College before settling on a career as a winemaker and farmer. She owns The Farm at Dover Vineyard, a produce farm and vineyard located near the Charlotte Motor Speedway. She opened her business in 2009, however her family have farmed in the Charlotte region since the mid-1700s. Ms. Dover provides insight into the challenges and satisfaction of small-scale farming and selling produce in the Charlotte region. She discusses the physical and economic effects of Charlotte’s growth on historic farmlands and describes how public perceptions of small-scale southern farming are at odds with the realities.

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